I'm spending some of my time trying to learn about the best way to go about the purchase of the all-around AR. By all-around, I mean if I were going to buy or have one built(for both self-defense and hunting) which considerations should be paramount?

Are there AR's right off the shelf that are simply perfect or is customizing always a necessity after the purchase?

Finally, what top two companys would you gents recommend to accomplish your suggestions, if you provide me any.

I am going to buy or have one built but I still have some learning to undertake!

Determine your needs and expectations.

The perfect woman is different to each guy.

Bob,

Do you have any friends locally that own different ones you can try to determine basic preferences?

Mackay is right they can be application specific. I sure wouldn't want to try to use something like a Armalite M15A4T 24" Heavy Barrel in a building search/clearing exercise. But it makes a good long range p-dog shooter.

Solution to your problem is simple....you need several!

Isaac, as Mackay said,you need to define your needs. I myself could not get by with just one AR. I have several ranging from the 16" RRA M-4 style to custom built 16"and 24" flat tops for the bench and LR varmit hunting.
If you were to go with just one all around gun I would choose the Colt 6920 or the newer 6940 and call it good.

Thanks guys but I did limit my search. I want to buy one.

If it were to be just one, what would it be and why? For example, Jimmy above suggests the Colt in either 6920 or 40. I'd like to hear from Jimmy as to why and then see wheere you good minds come in with the follow-up.

Assume you can only have one. Can it be purchased off the rack or do you HAVE to customize to make it that one gun that could cover the gamut?

Really guys.....thanks much. I know it's very limited query but I'd appreciate you guys just humoring me with the exercise.

I'm off to research Jimmy's Colt suggestion!

Like others have said, there are a lot of particulars to consider for a good recommendation but I'm sure you'll do plenty of research so just for conversation's sake (and because I know this is a fun part of the process for most folks ) I'll jump in.....

For me, if I want a gun for PD and hunting, I'd buy/build one for PD and then hunt with it. For what it sounds like you're looking for and since it sounds like you'd like to make sure you have a weapon with a top-shelf reputation, I'd second Jimmy's recommendation of a Colt 6920.

I have ARs with barrel lengths from 10.5" to 26" and, out of those, my favorite length for all-around use is the 16" carbine. This is the most common length for PD-type rifles and is very handy for hunting IME.

Even if you think you may want to use irons, make sure to get a flat top so you can go either way. I shoot iron sights (not very much though), electronic sights and scopes. My hands-down favorite sight is the EoTech (with irons as a back-up).

Here are a couple examples....(these two are both RRA)


Here's some bad/fuzzy pics that will hopefully give you some kind of an idea of how the EoTech/irons work. Sorry for the crummy pics but I was in a hurry when I took them.....

Damn, guess I'm on the spot now. Off the shelf, I feel Colt is one of the top MOA guns I would also put LMT right along side of Colt but they are more money and I don't feel you will gain anything in accuracy over the Colt.
The 6920 and 6940 both have the 4 position stock which is nice for the smaller shooters, such as kids,grandkids and wives, a plus in my book. I like the handguards better, I do prefer the 6940 over the 6920 due to the full length rail which affords the option of setting it up for various optic's along with room for night vision. I feel that both of these Colts are priced right and will hold a good resale value if and when you ever choose to sell either.
I have run 1000's of rounds through both of mine and never had a problem with either gun.
I have also had outstanding results with RRA.
I'm sure Mackay and rost will chime in with their opinions and they are very savy when it comes to AR's and what they feel is best.
Whatever you get will only be the beginning

Bob, unless you know if you are going to hunt game or people, its hard to zero in on what you need.

For a non-LEO/contractor, I think Colt, LMT, etc. are over-kill. To me, RRA is the best bang for your $$ but if money's not the focus you certainly won't regret going with a top-tier gun.

For personal defense an M4 clone is the way to go, and in 5.56 with a red dot. A Colt is a fantastic choice IME. A Rock River or Stag is a good call too.

What type of hunting is the big question. Here there are a zillion choices depending.

Sam....because of the obvious stats, hunting up to big boar sized game would be my first thought but having the semi-auto feature and load for a back-up HP wouldn't hurt none. I'm just thinking it can be done with one AR Sam and that's what I'm trying to figure out.

By th way...thanks for the input. I am learning.

Don't worry, he'll have two (or more) ARs soon enough......

+1 My thoughts also, start out with the Carbine

Personally, if I were wanting to only own one AR, I'd opt for a RRA with a SS standard weight 16-18" barrel with a 1/8 twist and either a mid-length carbon fiber forearm w/ Weaver gas block or 1/2 quad aluminum forarm.

I'd stick with my EoTech as the primary sight but a nice 1.5-5x to 3-9x scope would make for a versatile back-up.

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bi...age=1&search=&since=&status=


Thoughts for the Newbie?

The 6920 or 6940 would be my choice if they weren't marked LEO. I would also feel comfortable with an LMT M4.

But for my favorite AR, it has to be a Colt light weight carbine with a flat top receiver. The closest you can buy off the shelf is a 6520 but you have to change the A2 upper for a flat top.

Throw a low powered variable scope such as the Leupold 1.5-5, add Troy flip up back up iron sight, a LaRue rail, TD verticle grip, a Magpul enhanced trigger guard, a Rock River 2 stage trigger and an LMT SOPMOD stock and you have the perfect all around gun. (In my opinion anyway)

Why? Colt is highly reliable out of the box. The light weight barrel is 1/7 twist, will handle light or heavy bullets and handles amazingly well. They are usually around MOA accurate which is good enough for anything in 223/5.56 range.

I have an M4 and an HBAR as well but the LW does it all.

If you've got the coin, there's nothing wrong with Noveskes products.

Those are sweet, TRW.
Can you flat top the Noveske without changing the uppers?

One thing missed above is that you really need only one common lower. The uppers can be specialized and multiple. Just like a T/C Contender.

Get a lower that fits (can have an adjustable stock) with a 3 pound, crisp trigger and go for it, 17 HMR2 - 50 cal Beowolf.

If you take a basic rifle or carbine of good manufacture and free float the barrel, you'll have enough accuracy for most jobs - as good as most hunting rifles.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with non-Colt guns. I currently have an SGW/Olympic gun that I got in 1984 which continues to work just fine despite thousands of rounds. My Daughter has a RRA and I'm building my son an 20" rifle off a DPMS lower.

The various M4 style guns seem to be popular for a reason, light and flexible. You can always get another upper for special occasions and the AR is so easy to modify you can always alter it later.

BTW, if you plan on shooting milsurp M193 or M885 you are better off with 1:9 twist. 1:7 is authentic military and will stabilize heavier bullets. The main reason the military went with 1:7 is to stabilize heavy tracers, which isn't a big issue with most people.

Here's a dispersion graph showing twist versus bullet weight

Also look at Sabre defence as one of the better brands.

As others have already stated, 1st you need to define the rifles true purpose. For me an ultimate AR-15 has a 20" barrel to keep all that noise just a little further away from me not to mention the extra velocity gained. The gun isn't too long that it can't be used in inside if needed, but in all honesty it probably will never be needed for that purpose. It has a medium weight barrel so it balances well while still being easy to carry. It is extremely accurate and it doesn't have anything bolted on it that isn't necessary to use it.

For me the ultimate AR-15 will be used for informal target shooting and calling in coyotes.

That's my version of the ultimate AR-15.


Terry

Isaac - to answer your question, when folks talk about "flat-top" they're usually talking about the upper configuration of the rifle in general but specifically the upper receiver. As Bend mentioned, when you have a complete lower assembly, you can swap "uppers" to suit a specific purpose.

Here's another example.

This is an AR "pistol" which means it has a bare buffer-tube instead of a regular buttstock and an "upper" that's usually between 7" to 12" inches (can be more or less). To have an AR with a barrel or barrel w/ fixed brake or suppressor that's shorter than 16", it either needs to be "pistol-only" or an "SBR" (short barreled rifle), the later of which requires some extra paperwork.



This next AR has the same basic lower with a regular stock and upper. It's a varmint contour barrel which is nice for the range/prairie dogs but WAY to heavy to be considered an all-around rifle IMO.




IIRC, MacKay has one similar to this with a standard contour SS barrel and low-mag scope. That would be about perfect for a 1-gun solution if you ask me.

It think to be VERY sure, you should have TWR and TC1 each send you a couple to play with. That way you'll be able to make an "informed" decision!!!

The thought crossed my mind Nebraska, that's for sure!

I'm learning much fellas.....thanks.

isaac,

This is an older pic from last year. I have always used AR's for work but I had no experience with any brand other than Colt. I wanted an AR for coyotes and just a good everyday "truck gun". I got a smoking deal on a S&W M&P15 and I've been very pleased with it. It wears a 6x36 Leupold with LR dots.


Shoots alright too.



The thing I like best about an AR is they are light and handy. I try to keep mine that way.



Travis

As has been mentioned, you can change the upper Bob, and have your AR do about any task you need.
Here is my Son's Colt HBAR. By changing the parts, it goes from a target/hunting rifle, to a homeland defense rifle.
He stayed with 5.56 for both, but you certainly don't have to. You could easily have a .260 Remington hunting upper, and a 5.56 defense lower.

Now I'm starting to get it. Thanks to you guys, I won't seem like such a frikken moron when I go into my favorite gun shop. This shop has about 60 ARs for sale on their wall. Don't know the brands though.

This AR research and purchase will be fun. I have enough nice rifles aand handguns so this is really re-peaking my irrataional buying impulses.

PS...thanks Sam and the rest of you.

While I ain't shipping my babies anywhere, ya'll are more than welcome to come try em for yourselves. Which as Nebraska stated is the only way to "make an informed decision". I've built over a dozen guns for myself and changed those up many times over the years, hopefully evolving into a better setup as I go but what looks cool may not always be cool. It has to work for you, to be cool.

As for twist rate, 1/7 will not only handle the heavies but it does a nice job with 50's as well. My LW shoots American Eagle 50 gr hollow point right at 1" I for one don't beleive you can overstabilize a bullet.

Not bad for a chrome lined 1/7 twisted pencil barrel from Colt, won't win any matches but it kills alot of coyotes.

OK TWR...you got the job. I want one of your faves. 200 cash do it?

You could easily have a .260 Remington hunting upper, and a 5.56 defense lower.

Am I reading this right? The 260 is based off a 308 or am I missing something?

One other item not mentioned-

Chromed lined chamber and bore for LONG barrel life but generally not too accurate (YMMV).

Chromemoly or stainless barrel for more of a tack driver if its near-match or match quality. Barrel life would be more like your bolt rifles.

issac I think you left out a few zeros...

jimmyd, I think your right, the 260 won't fit in a 5.56 lower unless it's some wildcat based off a 6.8 case or something.

AR's can be very accurate but 1MOA is good enough for me for a hunting/all purpose gun.

Here is Mine Bob:



DPMS AP4 in 308 w/ a Leupold 6x42

what I was telling Bob, was that you can have two or more different calibers working off one lower. To have the .260 upper would mean using a .308 lower of course.
I was not clear on that, obviously. I should have used a 6.8mm or .204 Ruger upper in the case that he would want a common upper with a 5.56 lower.

Sam, not a problem, just thought maybe there was a new caliber in the AR 15 platform that maybe I was unaware of.

I'm sure after Bob gets the AR bug, he will be adding others to the collection

The perfect gun for what want to do with it is a really good question and the best question that has been asked. Home defense a 16 inch M4 type rifle with an aimpoint on it from any of the major manufacturers, but Colt, RRA, Bushmaster are all good. If hunting something I sure want a longer barrel and a regular scope of some type.

No way you can get what you need for an ultimate gun off the shelf, excepting when you pay outrageous prices.

IMHO if you want one, do a lot of research, come up with what it is, and then get a top line smith to build it. You'll spend the same or less as the top line guns and have something as good or better and tailored to you specifically.

My take on it, a mid weight 20 inch tube, flat top( can use optics or irons if done correctly) free floated. A float tube with a small rail on it just because, but ready to take a sling and bipod. Standard 223. Twisted either 8 or 7 or in between. A good trigger, mine would be Geisselle but thats a personal thing, a tuned RRA is just fine, but you have to like 2 stage and I do. Let the smith pick the parts, good parts are not diamonds, and don't have to cost as such, but need to be checked out.

A few why's answered... 20 inches, gets you quite a bit of speed, going to 24 doesn't gain all that much. ITs quieter than a 16, yet not that much longer. Twisted to shoot heavy bullets as I'm always carrying 68 and up generally... and can shoot heavy TSX too. Mid weight barrel so its not so heavy. Standard stock because I like them. 2 stage trigger because I'm used to it, haveing shot them since the 80s, and it is the only safe way to get to a 1.5 pound glass trigger in a semi....

Personally, if I were wanting to only own one AR, I'd opt for a RRA with a SS standard weight 16-18" barrel with a 1/8 twist and either a mid-length carbon fiber forearm w/ Weaver gas block or 1/2 quad aluminum forarm.

I'd stick with my EoTech as the primary sight but a nice 1.5-5x to 3-9x scope would make for a versatile back-up.



+1

If you are thinking of getting it for both self defense and hunting check out a 6.8 SPC. That's what I have in RRA M4 configuration. My cousin has a Bushmaster M4 6.8 SPC he carries as a ranch rifle. The 6.8 puts down deer much better than the 5.56 plus it's legal for hunting big game everywhere. Can't say the same for the 5.56. Check out this link to Silver State Armory showing how the 6.8 does on game.

SSA Success Stories

Be sure you scroll all the way to the bottom to see what "Disco" is proud of. I think he might be related to Jeff_O.

What you want is an M-4 clone with the 16" barrel, flattop and possibly the rail system handguards. The latter is dependent upon how custom you want to go. You may as well get a Colt. There are lots of good brands that will do you just as well as Colt, but why not? I like a simple gun. Right now mine has iron sights and an EOTech type holo-sight. You may want a scope.

I'd get a second upper in 6.8 for hawgs, as the others have said. Or just get two guns.

Get the Magpul mags for extras. They're the best.

I've owned probably half-a-dozen Colts since 1982 and three Olympics. I've had no complaints about any except a few FTE's from a current M-4 I've got. That's a pretty good record though.

You guys won't believe the luck i experienced this morning in court. One of my witnesses, from NC, is an avid AR fan and has over 20 in his collection. I told him of this thread and what I was attempting to do. My client, who prevailed today, owes me about 1380 to bring his bill final. The witness friend said that because of today, I was to put my wish list together of what I wanted built and if I waived his buddy's remaining fee, he'd build a custom beauty to my specs at no further cost to me.

Now, being the excitable fool I am, I have to go through all these threads again and again to pick out exactly what I want on my soon to be AR.

I think I'm leaning towards being able to change the barrels unless you guys send me in another direction.

He also said I could have one of his 5.56s and then we could build a AR just for hunting the bigger game if I wanted,like a 308.

So many awesome options for a dumbass who has no clue what he''s doing!

Isaac, I was in your shoes a couple months ago and probably still don't know as much as has been dispensed here now but..ended up with a RRA Predator Pursuit with a 20" barrel, match trigger. Shot it for the first time the other day with some Black Hills 52-gr HP and it shot sub-MOA. My focus is on coyotes in the winter and not two-legged invaders but it probably would deter them anyway.

Sounds like you hit on a good arrangement and will be fixed up shortly.

Whatever you end up buying, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. ARs are fun, and easy to customize in a zillion varieties. It's the lego of guns!

It's the lego of guns!
++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm learning very quickly that is a fact!

It can't and won't stop at one..............you have been assimilated! Bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!

After this thread, I'm concerned you may be right.

One question...I forgot the exact terminology from this morning but the AR in his trunk had a suppressor on the end of the barrel.His is welded on to a barrel about 11.5 inches if that seems right.. What's that all about? He says he gets a huge fireball coming out his rifle and it is very loud. So, WTF is the reason to have that on your AR?

"I think I'm leaning towards being able to change the barrels switch uppers unless you guys send me in another direction."

Fixed.

No need to lean. As long as the lower has the same action size, its no problem.

Thank you, Bend. I'm getting there!

Reason to have that is because you are stupid.... Actually its legal barrel length, being minimum of 16 inches IIRC, and why would you not want a real barrel and rifling that whole distance, why shortchange yourself?

If an NFA weapon, then I could see the shortness but would not add a 6 inch long hider to it...

Just my take on it, its purely a bling thing and you see that too often on ARs, like the quad rail float tubes... dang...

You stumbled into a good deal if the build(s) are good you'll be really happy.

Consider money wise, that while an AR15 will never be the same power as an AR10 platform, don't forget that uppers for the AR15 in 6.8 spc, 7x62x39, 458 socom, 50 beowufl, 450 marlin and such, and other wildcast, give the 15 versatility that won't end. Including a 22 lr upper.

That being said I own my first AR10 lower and its destined for a 260 AI and either 338 Federal or 358 Win at some point in the future....

I didn't like how your reply started....grin...but I figured it out. I see what you're saying.

I'm a pretty quick study and I just may have a lot of fun along with the education I'm receiving here. Just might end up with a beaut, as well.

For that....thanks to all of you.

Some light reading.

Just added to my favorites.

Thank you!

As usual in a hurry, probably wasn't totally clear on that. Of course if you didn't know bling crap doesn't mean squat to me. I can get along just fine in most any circumstance with irons on out to WAY on out there, lets just say I have zeros to 1000 with some of my iron AR15s... so I don't see the use for a lot of extra stuff, and to be held back to a 16 inch tube but NOT use it for more MV, and to gain a fireball, well thats plain stupid to me. Doesn't mean I wouldn't use a flash hider if it worked or a solid bottom one as it acts like a brake and I can get more rounds off with less rise....

BUT I have a fairly extensive background shooting the AR and managed to do decently in the games... makes me fairly confident...

Have to admit when I first read "suppressor" I was not thinking flash hider......I read too fast sometimes.

5 inch would be a short suppressor... but I do the same quick reading/typing all the time...

"Just my take on it, its purely a bling thing and you see that too often on ARs, like the quad rail float tubes... dang..."




Of course not everyone wants an Omish AR either...

That's the beauty of them, you can set them up however you want them.

Just to clarify...If you have him build you a true 308 Win. then you are talking an AR-10 platform as opposed to an AR-15. The AR-10 is significantly bigger and IMO in most incarnations is more "battle rifle" than "assault rifle" to play fast-and-loose a bit, with those terms.

Nothing wrong with an AR-10, but it is bigger. The AR-15 is certainly perfectly capable of a .30 caliber cartridge or more as the 50 Beowulf proves that, but the cartridge itself needs to be shorter and will have a resultant decrease in velocity. This is where the whole idea for the 6.8 comes in.

Have a 6mm off the 6.8 case.... like that one too... so yeah the 6.8 is ok too. But then its 277 and I dont' like that caliber personally, would take a 6.5 grendel over that...

TWR, yep you can put blades on and drop it etc... as they say. And that is the TRUE beauty of the system, even if I don't see the need for spinners and such, everyone can have their way... once brownells put out an AR only catalog... that opened many eyes to the absolute ton of parts available.. a far cry from the first flat top I ever saw... an A1 vietnam era, no FA, cut off the carry handle and epoxied/screwed a generic weaver base to the top.....

Ya Jeff, I seen one of those A1 uppers cut off and tapped, crewd but it was a start. Know the guy who had it and may try to pick it up for nostalga.

On another note have you heard of the 22pdk? It's the 6.8 necked down to 22 cal and is supposed to bring 22-250 ballistics. Lots of options.

Spinners huh? Gives me some ideas... grin.

had not heard of the 22 pdk, I had thought of the 6.8 necked down that far or even fartehr, but didn't know anyone had done it.

Close to 22-250 would be cool 'yote upper. Might have to research, its only money right..... I gotta finish up some bolt gun projects first though.... then to the AR10 projects, then back to the 15s...

Issac, oh yeah, start with the 15 for sure IMHO. YOu can move to the 10/25 platform later though.... I never thought I wanted a 10 either... have a couple of M14s that do as well or better, but now a 338 federal or 358 win and the option of the 260AI......
I get 'easier' as I get older

I'm very late to this thread, and I am not sure I am addressing the latest twist, however if I was looking for a single AR-15 that could be used for most everything I would select something along these lines:

It would be an A4 set up as a NM rifle. By this I mean that it would have a nice 20 inch stainless steel barrel with either 1:7 or 1:8 twist, in a flat top receiver with the NM carry handle and front sight. There would be a free float tube and the trigger would be a nice two stage NM trigger.

Armalite makes a very nice one called the M15 A4 SPRII National Match, for example.

You could use it right out of the box and then you could mount some type of optics by simply removing the carry handle. The 20 inch barrel will easily carry your bullets supersonically past 600 yards and if you handload, up to 1000 yards. The rifle will be very nice to shoot, highly accurate and if one day you get into a panic where you MUST have a 16 or shorter barrel, just swap the upper, the lower will have all the NM parts you need.

If you want to get it built from scratch, use that rifle as your prototype.

I haven't gotten an AR ever either and am pretty much a newb, though I have researched it off and on. I decided when I get one it will be a model similar to the RRA predator or remington's R15 model with an 18-20" barrel but not the varmint weight barrel.

It will be quieter, handier, flat top for ease of mounting various sight options and more of an all around gun that I see myself using more than a swat style entry weapon or prairie dog field gun.

For a second upper I would like to get 458 socom or the 50 beowolf just cause that intrigues me and in WY you can't use a 223 caliber legally for big game hunting. The thump in a package like that is just cool.

Not sure how that applies to you but that is what the one gun idea boiled down to for me. Just haven't pulled the trigger on the idea yet. Need to find a client like yours.

my 50 beowulf is a workable 200 yard cartridge, you have to use holdover of course but sighted in correct its on deer at 100, 150 means high, 200 means top of back. Pretty easy to remember.

Barnes X thump em pretty nicely , but I've yet to have a DRT one, but I don't break bone and such, I'm a lung shooter a lot, that or head, and I haven't done a head with the 50 yet(neither the real 50 or my beowulf....)

i played with 7.62x45 necked down to 22. Beats the 6.8 necked down but nothing close to 22-250. Comes in about halfway between 223 and 22-250. Uses a 7.62x39 bolt and 6.5 Grendel mags.



Compared to 223 (on the right)

For a real hot rod you can go here... http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/WSSM%20page.htm

Tod,
Well that figures. I haven't been able to find anything on the pdk and am now thinking the guy named it after himself and possibly added a little more to it velocity wise. If I find anything more I'll let ya'll know.

isaac, just go buy a rifle.

fiddle with it until it's what you want.

-tom

Agree with tommygs! They are just plain fun in any configuration and easily modified to a configuration you like....

Just get a free floated barrel and a gas block up front. I love my RRA and would do the same thing again. Last time I was at Gunsite the instructors were very interested in the RRA. They had seen a bolt break on one or two. No such problem with mine. Nice standard trigger and runs like hell on wheels. I've had a lot of 500+ round days with minimal cleaning. The colts and FNHs I've use playing army have most worked fine. The last colt I deployed with, I worked hard and it held up fine and was always there for me.

If your looking at Noveske, they're great. I've been to there shop and met most the crew. Great people that make an excellent product. In that price range Next Generation Arms is also execellent and again great people.

Rost is on with building your own. Not as hard as it may sound and you get it exactly how you want it for a good discount.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Since I have that client deal going, I'll probably let him have a go at it especially since I'll get a selected custom made one for the 1380 my client owes me. Who knows, he may just take one of his off the shelf and ask what I want to fiddle with as you and Keith suggested.

I gotta learn as I go through this so this way I'm learning a lot as I progress.Moreso than if I just went into his gun locker and grabbed one. Plus, I wouldn't know entirely which one to grab.

But, your point is well taken, tommy.

Terry can I ask who made that barrel? I am looking for a 20" LW barrel of good quality. Cheers. JP

20 inch tubes that are good and light are a rare thing unless you buy custom and flute a lot..

I'm interested to, especially if its a good barrel that doesn't have 150 of fluting on it..

I was contemplating this Noveske Upper. Any thoughts,pro or con?

18" SPR 6.8mm Upper


--18" SPR 6.8mm SPC stainless barrel
--1 in 12" twist polygonal rifling
--6.8mm SPC MOD 1 Chamber (.100 Freebore)
--Vltor MUR upper receiver
--11" inch railed handguard with anti-rotation interface with the MUR upper receiver
--Mid length gas system
--Extended feed ramps
--5/8x24 TPI muzzle threads
--Bead blasted finish on barrel
--.750" gas block seat
--Vortex Flash Suppressor
--Auto bolt and carrier group
--Forged charging handle
--Optional BUIS (Troy Back Up Iron Sights)
--Medium Weight Contour

That's a factory Sabre Defence rifle. It's by far the most accurate AR-15 I've ever owned. MidwayUSA sells the fluted barrel assembly for $450. It sounds a little pricey but when you consider the parts that come with it like the YHM gas block/flip up front sight and all the fluting work the price isn't really that bad.

Sabre Defence is 1st class stuff in my book.


Terry

The Sabre defense stuff is really nice. I've got a 6.5 Grendel M5 upper coming. After looking at several, I decided it was a must have.

For an all-around gun-

Cons

-18in Barrel is to long and unnecessary
-6.8 is expensive and unnecessary
-Vltor Upper while being high quality, is heavy and unnecessary



What you described is really a specialized gun.



You mentioned using it for SD/HD. If you hadn't then it's just whatever you want. If you think you may have it for serious use then there are certain things you will want.

Stay with tier on manufactures-Colt, LMT, Noveske, etc., or a really good "smith" that uses tier one parts. S&W also makes a pretty good gun. Forget Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River, Olympic, etc. for serious use. They have to many problems.

Make sure you get a barrel that is chambered in 5.56 with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist, do not get one with a 223 chamber. 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 twist will shoot light bullets just fine, and will stabilize 77gr OTM's which do make a difference at range. Make sure it has a chrome lined chamber and bore. You're not using it for High Power matches- a 5.56 chamber and fully chrome lined barrel will help make sure it works, and as long as you get a good quality barrel you will not have a problem averaging 1MOA with match ammo.
You can also use a good stainless barrel with a Wylde or MK262 match chamber, but you do give up some longevity and durability, and reliabilty with certain types of ammo with them.

An 18-20in barrel is unnecessary. It decreases maneuverability, adds weight and aids very little in mid range shooting. A 16in barreled gun is fully capable of shooting and hitting at mid range (5-600yds), and is much better for running and gunning.

Use a free-float handguard.

In general stay away from "match" triggers. If you shoot a lot and/or attend a training class, and you should, they will fail. The exceptions to this are the Gesielle and the AR Gold, though the utility of a 2lb trigger in self protection is debatable.

As to optics- they can be whatever you prefer. All-around means from contact distance to mid range (0-500yds or so) however in real life the mass majority of use is probably going to be under 200yds. So a suitable red-dot (Aimpoint) especially with a magnifier or a low power variable (1-4x, 1.5-5, etc.) is going to be the most useful.



There is actually a name for this type of rifle and it was started by military SOF. It's called a Recce, and they work very well at a whole bunch of tasks.

That was a excellent reply for me to read and understand, Charles.

Thank you.

The read is also full of some holes.... its an opinion, just like the rest of ours.

Might be the ultimate AR if you're a SOF type of guy. I'm not.

Terry

Hey Jeff, did you see my post above about the 20" fluted barrel?

It may not be what you want but at least you know now.

Terry

+++++++++++++++++++

I certainly understand that. All part of the learning process, I think.

What do you find could be improved?

The 22pdk is the Brainchild of Roy Winnett. He also does the 6mm pdk, 20pdk and the 6.5pdk. He has the cases made for him, I bought 800 a few weeks ago...they look very well made. He has a website where you had reach him, www.pdk20.com. Jezzer (UK)

Thanks Jezzer, that's what I was looking for.

As for the opinion/holes thingy, I and alot of other people share the same opinion, only makes you right if it works for you.

I have a feeling we'll see just who makes the best AR/M4 since Colt's time expired on the rights to the M4 TDP. It now belongs to the Army and test guns are being built probably as we speak.

The MIL and Colt worked together "tweaking" the M4 into what it is, not all companies use or can use the info. Now we will see...

Basicly a Colt 6920 (civy legal M4)is about perfect for an all around AR especialy if HD/PD is important.

Indeed, a Recce configuration is not the best at anything. It wasn't designed to be. If you shoot High Power, it's useless. It is less then optimum for building clearing. It lacks the barrel length to hang with the SPR's past mid range, and the optic is generally not setup for 700m shots. It however, can do nearly everything adequately.

I could care less whether one uses a 10.5in barreled gun, or a 26in heavy monster. The original posters stated goals point to a specific configuration.








Maybe, maybe not. If all goes as some plan there will be an open competition. If so it's doubtful the M4 as we know it will be selected.


Tracking on the 6920. It follows the TDP, and there is a reason for the TDP.

It will be interesting for sure. I know some are hoping for a new mouse trap but when it all shakes out buying an $800 M4 vs a $2000 HK416 (or other) tells me we ain't done with the M4 yet and to me that's a good thing.

If you buy a single high-end AR-15 with HD/SD in mind, I would like you to think about the following. I happen to live in a subdivision and my wife and I have several children of various ages living at home. When an HD situation arises and you pull out that big ole AR-15, release the bolt to load the first round off the 30 round mag and start blasting away, just remember this, you have to account and explain every bullet that you will be sending out of your fancy schamcy AR-15 and this may very well happen in a court of law in front of a judge and a hand-picked jury. If your bullets go through the interior and exterior walls or doors or windows (and they surely can,) they will continue on looking to spend themselves somewhere. For non-TEOTWAWKI situations, a shotgun or a handgun is better suited for HD. Also, I have never been able to conceal carry an AR-15.

On the other hand I read where Isaac said a few times that he wants to use this rifle for hunting and big boars where mentioned. I suspect there will also be some target shooting and some plinking, perhaps some varmint shooting, these things usually indicate a need for an accurate rifle. Longer barrels will produce higher velocity, a good thing for hunting and longer distance shooting.



Bushmaster, DPMS and Rock River are all fine. I do not believe Isaac is going into combat. I am partial to ArmaLite, there are many others.



Oh my gosh, I don't have fully (or partially) chromed lined barrels in my ARs. I have stainless steel barrels and I take good care of them. I would love to know how I am giving up "some longevity and durability, and reliabilty with certain types of ammo with them."



As you probably guess by now, I like 20inch or longer barrels. Then again, I don't run and gun and as I explained earlier, I will not be using an AR for HD, unless there is nothing more suitable left.


Indeed, and I explained that in my earlier posting.


I hope by now that I have made my point about how bad an idea it is to use an AR-15 for home or self-defence in non-TEOTWAWKI situations.

The stock AR-15 is actually a pretty lousy device designed to make it difficult to shoot accurately ; the trigger is designed for a full auto rifle. If you are serious about wanting to shoot it accurately, you need to change the triggers. The NM triggers from ArmaLite and others are very good. I have Geissele triggers in mine. Don't worry, they have been backordered for many months now; the government is seemingly buying all the triggers Bill Geissele can make at home. I know of none other as good, let alone better than Geissele.

Once you have fired a stock AR-15 trigger and then try out a Geissele or even an NM from ArmaLite or RRA, you will understand why you do not want the stock trigger.




Get a flat top and then get a nice variable scope. There are many excellent scopes to choose from.





Especially if you are in the military or just want to have a tacticool rifle.

Terry, saw that and saved the info!

Isaac

My take.... barrel goes 2-3 ways for length, 16 is worthless for much of anything but specialized. Its not a varmint or plinking tube, and its a LOUD SOB...

20 is a good compromise

26 is fine if you need all out speed...

223 is fine for combat, but I think you will do some hunting, while I'm totally comfortable with the 223 and right bullet for most deer, the 6.8 gives a bit more umph... and choosing caliber will depend on what your main goals are vs ballistics and cost of ammo.

I beg to differ on quality of some that are said to be bad... I've run so many rounds through RRA and not had any major problem... Of course I don't run as many rounds as others but have run between about 8-20K a year for many years without issues.... and the triggers in a lot of those guns were RRA NM triggers without an issue.

Chamber wise... a wylde is a 5.56 chamber with a bit better throat... it has no other differences from a "combat" chamber so to speak and it won't have any issues with any ammo unless you can find a bullet thats over standard diameter. Beyond that its fine.
I have nothing against a good chrome barrel if you get a good one. They are MOA tubes or better. And live longer lives than SS ones. But you have a decent chance of getting a bad chrome lined one too. That lining has to be done to a good tube to start with and done correctly, IE a cheap chrome one isn't worth the time unless you want to only blast.

I tend to agree on twist rate. 8 minimum

Match triggers.. all I can say is that while shooting and while running matches, I've seen one match trigger go down, I have seen some lightly set ones not keep weight at 4.5 pounds or over by leg rules, but they never failed to work, while I have seen about 3 IIRC standard ones fail. Luckily I carry many spare parts with me and can replace about anything thats field expedient in a match, including a complete trigger...
As mentioned Geisselle are going to govt contracts at the moment....

Sight wise my take is if you can't engage a decent sized target like a human silhouette with irons out to 600, you better learn HOW to shoot. But that doesn't mean I'm against glass and for most purposes glass is a good shot at it. I've never been a huge fan of red dots, I've used them a lot but they just never lit my fire, I can shoot as good or better with irons generally, but in fairness i have a bit of time with irons.

BTW I do have an 18 inch tube, and FWIW I just don't see that the 2 inches makes it any better in a house situation, or even the 4 inches of a 16 all that much better. In a house, regardless of others, I'd still clean house more confidently with a shotgun. And carry a carbine or 20 incher for outside work.
While FTR mentions penetration issues, I've been led to and read so much I'm almost convinced that 55 soft points would be safe in a house. OTOH I've shot 69 bthps through a sxs fridge/freezer at over 300 yards, that means I ain't using them in a house....

Float tube is a requirement as its a good thing and reliable enough, though I have seen 2 come off at the welds years ago...

BTW I should add I dont like the 6.8spc.. but thats just me. But it does make a good larger hunting round.

Facts are facts. The original poster asked for suggestions on an all-around AR for hunting, shooting, and home defense. He wanted it to be accurate, and reliable. Call it whatever you want, however as myself and another poster stated, his needs/wants fit a certain style or setup.

Just to clarify, I am in no way, trying to invalidate what you or Rost is saying. It comes down the intended usage. Because of the stated use, is why I have presented the info I have. If he would have never mentioned HD/SD then quite a bit would change.

issac, you need to define in your mind what it is you want to do with it, and then choose from there.

Charles, I liked your post but one thing I've learned on these gun boards is try to never speak in absalutes. Use some "IMHO's" and "I personally like's" and it won't sound so controversial.

Terry

We probably all sound like our thoughts are the only right ones....

Had I to run combat only my choices would be slightly different.

But for home defense they won't vary much. While I have not had an in home encounter, thank God, I have ducked out the door more than once with both a 16 inch and a 26 inch AR for coyotes, and moving through the house and our NARROW halls and sharp corners the 26 isn't much of a hassle. Now if you expected someone to grab the muzzle as you came around a corner could be different, IE combat is different. Home defense you will only generlaly encounter some stupid idiot wiht no training or plans.

Thats where specific to more or less combat is often said, but generally not meant. Unless you are LEO or Military(and if so we thank you for your service whomever is reading this) and do a lot of specific training most folks won't train much for home stuff, but will do a LOT more plinking/varminting....

As to respnosible for pistol or shotgun rounds, yep, for all of them. Its why I prefer that I never have to fire a handgun as a civilian at another.... and why I prefer a shotgun, because I don't carry stuff that will penetrate far in the house, preferring that my first hadnful of rounds is birdshot, which is fine if needed up close but doesn't go far. Even in the street...

Let me introduce you to the box of truth.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

I suggest at least the first 3 links on the page.

Didn't see any of the correct 223 projectiles used in those tests but may have missed it.

While I can't argue with street facts, I still find it hard to believe that at 15 feet or less, house distances, that a load of birdshot would not penetrate. I've seen deer killed with dove loads a few times. Also hogs up close when dove hunting. Of course anything is possible and I'd also be willing to bet the guy still walking after a 12 gauge to the chest was doped up and anything less than a CNS hit would end up the same. Sometimes not all the data is given. Either on purpose or by accident.

We used to carry our rigged slugs hunting... moly wads or mile or more...cut the shell in half on a dove load and boy have I seen more than a few deer shot with that load over the years.

Jeff

No dog in this fight but this is a good lower to start with

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth.../1/FS_New_LMT_AR15_Lower_ergo_gri#UNREAD

I'll leave the fighting, if it is that, to the experts and friends here who are providing me a decent and appreciated education. I guess learning is painful...and expensive!

Thanks for the link,Keith. With that lower you recommended, is changing uppers to other calibers an easy task?

Isaac,

You could screw around with this forever. I only own one AR and it's a RRA M4 6.8. I wanted it for the same reasons as you. I went out and bought it before the election because I could see this mess coming. There is a gun shop by me that specializes in AR style rifles. I bought a ARMS 40L for a BUIS and Leupold Mark IV super high aluminum rings per their recommendations. Put a Leupold Vari-X III in 1.75-6 on it that I happened to have laying around. It came with the two stage match trigger also. This out of the box setup shoots MOA at 200 meters no problem using Silver State Armory 6.8 110 Pro Hunters and 110 TSX. My cousin is one of the biggest ranchers in SD. He liked mine so much he got one himself for a truck gun. He couldn't find a RRA but I checked around and found him a Bushmaster. The Bushy shoots just as good as the RRA. The coyote and deer population has seen a marked decrease on his ranch since then. Someday I might buy a 5.56 upper for it but for now I figure why? The 6.8 hits a lot harder than the 5.56 and I don't plan on vacationing in Iraq or Afghanistan any time soon. BTW if you get a 6.8 get the PRI magazines. They cost more but are well worth it. Another thing is that Silver State Armory requires a Spec II chamber, 1-10 twist, six groove barrel for their combat loads which run 100 fps faster than their commercial loads.

Nobody is fighting; opinionated people are presenting their preferences with added comments.

I for one, am trying to figure out what YOU want in a rifle and what you want to do with it most of the time.

The AR-15 is a platform that allows you to change the rifle at will by the simple expedient of pushing two pins and swapping one upper for another. Total time: 20 seconds.

With one AR-15 lower, you can have as many uppers as you want, in various calibers, as long as the cartridge is no longer than the .223. You could have a short 16 inch barrel upper with a red dot sight for those bumps in the night and in the morning, push the 2 pins and mount the 26 inch monster barreled upper with a Hubble-class scope and go shoot at long ranges. The next day, you could put an 18 inch 6.8 SPC barrel and go hunting and when you come back you could mount a National Match A2 style upper and go compete at Camp Perry.

Any lower will do the trick, the design of the AR-15 removes all stress from the receivers and places it squarely on the barrel, barrel extension, bolt and bolt carrier; the receivers are there to hold the above pieces together and provide a buffer for the bolt carrier.

You could buy the stripped lower that has your prefered logo on it, add a lower parts kit and the trigger of your choice and have it assembled in just an hour or two or you can buy the lower fully assembled. The lower is the only part you have to buy through an FFL. You can order whatever upper you want on the Internet and receive it via UPS/Fedex/USPS right at home.

The only issue these days is the parts availability, which can be a little iffy but is showing signs of improvement.

What I like the most about building an AR-15 is that you can pick and chose the parts you want and for my match rifle, I selected what I considered to be the very finest parts throughout the rifle. There is no other rifle quite like it and it is supremely accurate. But that's another story.

So, I understand your dilemma; you are afraid to commit yourself, thinking that you would make a mistake and blow a good opportunity. Forget about that, it's not going to happen. You will not go wrong with an AR-15; if you decide later on that you really would like a longer or shorter barrel, build or order the upper that suits that need and push two pins. Bingo, a new rifle.

Start with a .223/5.56 caliber rifle and as you learn and your needs become clearer, you can easily adapt.

And now you know why you can't have just one. It's too easy to build another upper to suit a specific purpose.

I agree with staying with the 5.56, the 6.8 maybe a fine round but is harder to find and more expensive.

I think everyone has presented their final arguments. What is the court's decision?

"no dog in this fight" is just redneck for saying I am not involved in this deal with the lower. I don't know the guy, I am not making anything off this deal, etc.

You can use that lower for any upper build for that receiver size. It is just a good price on a complete LMT lower with a BCG (Bolt Carrier Group). Changing uppers is as easy as removing 2 pins.

LOL. This just shows that the AR crowd is almost like another religion. It reminds me of the old 45 vs 9mm debates we used to see on gun boards all the time.

So far I like FTR_Shooter's advise best. Practical and well thought out.

Ask 5 AR owners what the best configuration is, and you'll probably get 6 or 7 answers. That's the problem with a gun that has so many variations. I've see multipage arguments over which AR grip is best (I like the MagPul MIAD, for the record).

As a newcomer to ARs, I be tempted to pick a well know manufacturer with a good warrantee and reputation. Ask you local gunsmith if he has an opinion and what he like Who has the best customer service, etc.

I work on my own guns, so this is not an issue. But if you are not an AR mechanic, it pays to pick a maker with good customer service. I've heard very good thinks about S&Ws M&P and there service has always been great. T be honest, I haven't dealt with any other AR maker's service department, except Knight's, and there customer service is so horrific, I warn everyone not to deal with them (unless you are a government agency in which case you will get good service).

Buy a turn key system and you will only have to deal with one company if you have a problem. Or get one from an AR mechanic with a good reputation who you can rely on to fix any issues.

Buy what appeals to you. You can always change things like barrel, hand guard, etc later if you change you mind. My personal AR started life in 1984 with triangular hand guards and a A1 upper. It's been a 20" heavy barreled varminter, a 6.8 rifle and now a 5.56 M4gery. Along the way its been used for 3 gun matches, killing PDs and even a couple of deer

As far as configuration, I don't think there's a wrong answer as long as you like it. Just make sure it's built by someone you can rely on.

Well . . . .

I like rost495's best . . . . .

Neener, neenner, neener . . . .



BMT

You're all wrong!

AM NOT!

I'm going to have my first draft of a build up tomorrow sometime. Advise as you deem appropiate fellas. Sorry, but I'm a perfectionist by nature. maybe it's a character flaw.

BMT....got your message and I am going to call you tomorrow, if OK. Thank you.

It's very important that I build something 10 times better than each and every one of you times infinity.

Just saw this in my research

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=215


I'm so confused but this does look great to my inexperienced mind. Maybe too much, though. I like the looks of the RRA's Nebraska had, as well.

You patronize whorehouses much?

BMT, my thoughts also.
isaac, just go with the RRA 16" flat top and build from there.
You should have bought that LMT lower with the bolt carrier group, a hell of a bargin. I couldn't resist so now I will have another project when I get back home in Nov.

Here are two I put together about a couple months ago. Top is an LMT lower with a 16" SS upper and the bottom is all RRA 16"

Well, good luck with that.

Ouch

From the link you've posted it looks like you want more of a fighting gun than a hunting rig.

Terry

What makes that more of a fighting gun?


Jimmy...you may be right but I'm kinda figuring out the game and before I tell this client's friend what I want, I want to educate myself such that I don't seem a dumbass.

So far I'm leaning towards the RRA.

Red dot sight and short barrel are items I wouldn't want for a hunting rig. The short Barrel balance isn't as good for steadied shots and the optics are geared for close fast shooting. The quad rail and retractable stock are pretty much worthless in the woods.

I'm not knocking your choice, it was just an observation.

Terry

isaac, it is great fun learning all the in's and out's of the AR world.As I posted above as well as several other's, this first AR is only the begining
I am very happy with all the RRA that I have purchased, which numbers more than a dozen. Some were complete guns and some were RRA parts guns.
I do prefer the flat top along with a flip up front sight for the irons along with a BUIS in case my optic's take a dump.
The nice part is once you get your complete gun you can add upper's as you wish and can purchase them without the needed FFL, they come right to your door and push two pins and your ready to go with a new upper.
Confused yet???????

Confused yet???????
+++++++++++++++++++=

Less and less as I read each post and surf the net. I'm having a hell of a time figuring out all the acronyms and what all of your guy's initials stand for, as well. I have to research all that on my own or you boys would really figure me to be a dumbschit.

I am enjoying the lesson, however. Sure beats helping married folks try and figure out who gets custody of the kids on Labor Day weekend.

They may not be your bag but don't ya think "worthless" is a little extreme??

I personally like the MagPul CTR stock and having the ability to easily shorten a rifle's overall length for carry/storage/use in tight spots is a BIG plus.

As far as quad rails go, I have one rifle with a quad rail and one with a 1/2 quad rail (along with standard forearms too). I really like the 1/2 quad for the ease of adding a light and the fact it's a free-float set-up. And, while I probably wouldn't go with full quad rail again, with rail covers, it's basically no different than any other forearm.

IMO, a full quad rail is kind of like a Jeep roof-rack......they're mainly for looks but can be pressed into a real use if necessary!!!

Maybe this could work for me as a base set-up. Were I to go with this, I'm assuming I could easily attach a larger caliber upper for bigger game.

Am I making sense and getting closer to reality?



http://www.rockriverarms.com/index....1&CFID=26602112&CFTOKEN=37691651

Exact opposite here....unless we're talking about long range hunting or prairie dogs. To me, a short carbine with a red-dot is the ultimate hunting set-up!!

I believe that rear sight may be fixed and, if so, it would be a definite "no go" in my book.

My pick(s) would be more along these lines:

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index....4&CFID=26602112&CFTOKEN=37691651

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index....9&CFID=26602112&CFTOKEN=37691651

Great....and thank you. When you open that link, would you change any of the custom item selections down below?

issac, this would be my choice other than I would want the flip up front sight. A very good starting point.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=218

If I were building/buying a rifle today and really only wanted one, I'd go with:

RRA with SS 16" barrel, 1/2 quad forearm, Weaver gas-block, CTR stock, Hoque grip along with Troy BUIS and an EoTech for most of what I do and a Bushnell 6500 2.5-16x50 in a LaRue QD mount for everything else.

Hell, I'm so pleased with that concept I might just have to get another AR!!!

That is a nice starting point but I just don't see the value in the "Entry Tactical" mount. For that type of mount, I prefer the Dominator II.

What am I missing there??

When left in it's original context I wouldn't say it's an extreme point of view at all.

As far as the optics go it's a personal choice but when I hunt with an AR-15 It's just like I do with a bolt gun. For me, I'll take precision over speed.



IMO, off the RRA page this would be my
idea of an all around AR-15 but I would like it in a faster twist.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=230


Now here is were I'm sure I'll part company with many and that's fine. I just like a longer barrel for off hand shooting. The extra weight on the end makes me a better rifleman. It ballances better and it's quiter. I had several friendly disagrements with Rost495 about this back a few years ago. You just couldn't convience me that a 16" barrel wasn't the best thing going. I finally yelded to his many years of experience and tried one. After the 1st session with a 20" rifle I was sold on the idea for life. There is no doubt the 16" rifles have a "cool" factor the 20" rifles can't match, but unless you are military or LEO you probably won't be hendered by a 20" barrel for the majority of the tasks I'll perform with the rifle. I am a civialian and in all honesty my rifle will be used outside and for sporting purposes. IMO, rifle should be set up with that in mind.

Nebraska, you have all my respect brother. Just wanted you to know that.

Terry

PS. I'm pecking on an iPhone, forgive all the errors

I like that mount as I am using Arms QD low 30mm rings and the height is perfect for the 30mm Leupold. I think the Dominator is a fine mount if running the Eotech, I just need more power in my optic's, old eyes just don't get it anymore.

Hard to shoot out a truck window with a musket...

yeah, but in all honesty when is that going to be important? I fully agree a 16" carbine will handle better in tight spaces but for a civillian I just like handaling qualities of the full size rife better. These are just my opine's though.

Terry

Here are my 3. I've owned a few more but this is what I setteled on. I really like all of them but feel the center one makes the best all around rifle. These are just my opinions. Forgive me if I offended anyone.

Terry

Bob, this is no different than any other category of firearms procurement.
You need at least four.

"These are just my opinions. Forgive me if I offended anyone."

Terry, your opinion is just as valid as mine even though they are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. I hate full size rifles, love light weight carbines with low powered scope and have killed a ton of coyotes with them.

Speak your mind brother, I will.

But those short barrels can be hard on the mirrors when shooting out of the truck. I did save the motor to make it adjust up and down though.

Isaac,

You are doing exactly the right thing by asking for input before spending a lot of cash. I would suggest you take a look on M4carbine.net and 10-8 forums. There are quite a lot of folks with AR experience at both these sites. I'd shy away from ar-15.com simply because it's difficult to seperate the wheat from the chaff there (The discussions are more mature and experienced-based on M4carbine and 10-8).

M4carbine has a list discussing AR's and which tier different manufacturers fall into. It essentially lists the most desirable aspects of an AR. Try this link:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642&highlight=tier

The 10-8 site is for 'working professionals' in Law enforcement.

The Tier 1 list is short and includes Colt, Noveske and LMT, as Charles A stated. In fact, Charles' information is quite good. Since you asked about Noveske, it is a very highly regarded weapon-especially their N4 rifles. Many of those who frequent the sites I've mentioned tend have a great deal of experience with the platform, and shoot many thousands of rounds through their weapons each year, if not monthly, so they base their opinions on that, and not specifically hunting. That is the biggest difference you will find between those sites and the information you find here: a focus on weapons vs. hunting.

Regarding what FTR Shooter posted, .223/5.56 rounds have indeed shown to actually be less likely to over-penetrate walls than buckshot and handgun rounds.

Where you will REALLY get confused is when you try to decide what optic to put on top of your Tier 1 rifle! THAT is a can of worms--just take a look at TC 1's three AR's and you'll see what I mean: high-power optic (top pic), low power variable (middle pic) or RDS (red dot sight) on the bottom. Ask him how much he has in LaRue mounts

BTW - This is one of my favorite forums to visit because of the core group of guys that regularly contribute. Please know that while I also may disagree from time to time on this, that, or the other I always feel I'm in very good company even when in mid-HUFF....

It's all been fun for me here and I sure hope I'm not coming across any differently.

Y'all have a good night!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

At a minimum, I've certainly learned that lesson.

Thanks CY....

I'm 52 in a couple of months and I've just recently had to revert to reading glasses so I will probably go with the red dot or a illuminated mil dot reticle on a fixed power scope.Just a preference as I can see perfectly out past 14 inches but have real difficulty looking through a peep type aperture.

I really appreciate this thread gents and the time you've taken to educate me. As of now, I'm leaning towards the RRA or Noveske platform in 16 inch and I am going to ask my client's friend to let me knock off a few rounds on his 20 inch upper to get a better understanding of TCI's well thought out comments. I have little solid foundation for my preferences other than aesthetics and availabilty of my client's friend's existing inventory. In other words, little rational thought other than looks and availability with the deal I'm getting.


I've learned much....thank you. The optics comments are much more well received here than on it's actual forum....grin

My 28 inch tubed 7x300 wtby gets out the window on hogs fast enough....

Isaac

Two things only from all the advice I continue to read, IMHO you need to SHOOT a 16 incher before you get one, so you are aware of the noise level, even using plugs and muffs. I'm not saying its horrible, but there is a HUGE difference between it and even one of my 18s.....

Second another poster talked Tier 1 guns, though some of us have pointed away from them for the dollars, be aware you cannot go wrong with a tier one gun. Its just that you spend a bit more cash. Some feel better with that and thats cool too. Some of us know its not needed, but then we know how to trouble shoot and IF we get a bad RRA for example, its easy to fix and we go through a few things like trigger pins, and gas keys to name 2, right away to make sure thats good. IE its cheaper for me to look at them than to pay a couple hundred extra to not have to.

Here is a 16 inch at night, no flash hider.



I had Peltor muffs on and was standing next to the guy. I safed my AR and got off the line after his second round. It was THAT loud.

ETA: Here is the trade off-

16 inch


24 inch

Well, if you want bragging rights, it's hard to beat the Elcan Spectre DR for an optic. Good enough for SOCOM and not many can afford the $1800 price.

http://www.elcan.com/ELCAN_Business_Areas/Sighting_Systems/Products/Day_Sights/SpecterDR.php

Bend, if you think a 16incher is loud, you should try narrow halls with comps mounted on 10.5in guns... Make your buddy smile!




Tod, while the Elcan seems like a good idea, as someone who is issued them I can tell you they suck. The mount is crap, and because of the external adjustments, you can't keep them zeroed. At least in my little world, the guys who had to turn in their ACOG's, did so kicking and screaming.

I had one of the 1st Gen Elcans. I thought the concept was Dick Tracy cool but the finished product sucked. The scope would wiggle on the mount and the glass wasn't anywhere near as good as it should have been for the price I paid. Lucky for me they were still hard to get and I was able to recoupe my investment.

I'm still kinda partial to my NF and it was $600 cheaper to boot.

Terry

I've been kinda fond of the acog for some reason... I have shot a bunch of them but never quite bought one for my rifles but its on the list...

Good to know about the Elcan, Charles. I was seriously considering this glass. I like the idea of a non-powered 1x scope, or a 1-4x. I've tried a few and haven't found one I really like. I was not impressed by the ACOG as I have trouble shooting with both eyes open with anything over about 2x and don't care for the amber reticle. My first 40x ACOG also kept loosening from the picatinny base all the time - it wasn't a particularly good fit. That's disappointing for a scope that costs that much.

Of all the Trijicon sights, I like the Reflex best, but it does love to collect dust and can be hard to clean.

Anyone want to recommend a good 1x, non-powered optic for an AR?

It's no secret I love 16" barrels with flash hiders, the fire ball above is no exageration yet a Vortex flash hider elliminates it.

The noise some claim never bothered me. I do have hearing loss from machinery noise and don't hear high pitched sounds. Yet it's not like a 44 mag pistol or even close to the 308 encore pistol I used to shoot, so take that for what it's worth.

Back during the ban years I tried a Bushmaster mini Y comp and it took 4 rounds to decide I'm selling the gun, quick!

Velocity wise, I chronographed several AR's with 14.5, 16 and 20" barrels with the same lot of XM193 ammo and lost 100 fps from the 20" to the 16". I can live with that. However an 18" will pick up most of that lost from what I hear, the 17" Kreiger I owned did but it was a higher end barrel and was supposed to be all that.

Pointing things out the window, common sense says a 16" AR will come out easier and quicker than a 20" or longer barrel, I mean come on...

While not a true 1 power, I still say the Leupold 1.5-5 is hard to beat as an all around optic. If you gotta have a red dot, go Aimpoint and change the battery once a year or so if your worried about it.

I hated the lack of eye relief on the ACOG I tried. The Elcan had the worst glass I ever saw, did not impress me at all. The 3 Eo-tech's I've had all "bloomed" with my astigmatism too much, Aimpoint not so much. The Trijicon Reflex my buddy had didn't impress me either, dot washed out too easy and is not the best color to pick up quickly. I've ran 2.5-8, 1.75-6, 3.5-10, 4.5-14's and 6.5-20's on different AR's and always reach for the 1.5-5.

The ACOG is hella tough, but I too prefer other optics.

Of the LPV's (low power variables) I have solid experience with, the S&B Short-Dot is by far the pinnacle. I don't really care for BDC reticles, finding that I am just as fast dialing in most situations if I need to adjust for drop, and shoot better then if I "run the reticle". The Leupold MK4 1.5-5x M2, Nightforce 1-4x, and the Trijicon TR24 1-4x with the #4ret. are all good optics. The TR24 may end up being THE 1-4. The IOR 1.1-4x is a good scope, but again I don't like the reticle.



There really isn't any red dots that don't use batteries that are worth the cons. Honestly the Aimpoints have such a long battery life (8 years constant on, on some models), and are so durable and reliable I don't fret the battery thing anymore.

Charles, have you used the CompM4? I have a couple of M2s, but they do suck batteries dry. I like the that they've finally switched to AA. I have too many optics that use weird batteries (like 'N' in the old Eotechs).

In regards to optics, I dug up a couple of old posts rather than retype everything:

Here is what I posted in a thread a couple of months ago reference the same topic:

Without going into a lengthy dissertation, I have tried and been issued a number of different optics for M4 type rifles. The short version is, after using red dots such as the Eotech, and fixed power Acogs, I have settled on low powered illuminated variables.

They allow fast, both eyes open shooting at short ranges on the lowest setting, as well as the ability to dial up for more precise placement at longer ranges. This allows flexibilty in ever changing environments.

Check out Leupold 1.5x5s Nightforce 1x4s or 2.5x10s or one of the IOR optics. I do not have any real long term use behind a Schmidt and Bender to give a solid opinion, but when I have used them on others guns, they seemed solid.

I have been running a 1.5x5 Leupold illuminated for a while now in a Larue mount and it has held up exceptionally well given the environments it has been used in. It sees constant use and gets an A+ in my book as an all around optic.


Then in another reply:

Montana,

First off I will toss out this disclaimer. My experiences are unique and have led me to have very definate opinions on things, but that does not mean I am any sort of expert. I do not specialize in strictly CQB. It is simply one part of the pie for me.

I am very much a practical realist. I like gear that is simple to use under stress and can be operated at the level of unconcious competence.

CQB is often an interesting subject, since almost everyone believes they are some sort of CQB God. For example,you should see some of the arguements between former SEALs vs former SF guys on the "right" way to do it. It is highly entertaining to watch. Guys get very heated.

I would like to point out a couple of things that have influenced my optics selection.

A close range situation can very quickly become an extended range situation. For example, you may kick in a door to snatch some guy on a warrant or something. Classic CQB right? If the bad guy reads the script and stays inside, then yes. However if he jumps out a window, gets around the one guy covering that side of the house/structure and takes off through the neighborhood, then things just got interesting and ranges extended substantially. This is not theory, it happened.

Similar situations happen overseas. An intial coordinated attack may involve people up close and personal, with additional bad guys at distance with long guns/belt feds in commanding positions.

Many often associate "Urban" fights with CQB. That is simply not the case. You can get some very long shots in urban areas.

On that note, I would much rather have a fight at a distance than a close range fight. EVERYONE shoots good enough at close range. Proximity negates skill.

I have been issued red dot type optics such as EOTECHs and they are best for me at very close range. However they are not flexible. They only do one thing well and offer no target discrimination.

Fixed power optics such as the ACOG are great too as they allow me to discriminate my targets. I can look down the block and see if Haji is looking at us intently, with a cell phone in his hand getting ready to command detonate an IED on us. It also allows the user to make a better determination as to if a suspicious person is a threat or not. Perhaps (often the case) he is merely an interested observer.

Magnified optics also allow a shooter have a better chance of hitting a bad guy who only pokes part of his body around the corner down the block or at a window or dirt berm.

With all that said, the fixed power magnified optic such as a 4x ACOG is slower to get hits with at very close range such as in a meeting hall or courtyard. However I am still a fan of the 4x ACOG and prefer it over an EOTECH.

These are the reasons I finally settled on a low powered variable with illumination as an option for low light.

They are not as fast as a true red dot holographic type sight (EOTECH) for very close shooting. However with practice they are very close. Another advantage the Eotech has is head position. As long as the red dot is on the target, no matter where the dot is in relationship to the optical picture, you can get a hit. A magnified optic require a more consistant sight picture. With practice however that has not really presented a problem.

I keep my 1.5x5 optic on 1.5 power so I have the ability to shoot with both eyes open very quickly at close range.

When needed, I have the flexibilty to dial the optic up to take a more precise shot at greater distances.

BTW, in reference to my Leupold, I actually chose the VXIII over the MKIV. The reason is I did not like the exposed turrets on the MKIV. Turrets are great if you are dialing shots with a precision rifle, but I have found that shoving rifles between seats and piling kit on top of them is not conducive to keeping turrets on zero. In my line of work, guns and gear are always getting shoved where they can and the VXIII with caps covering the adjustment knobs was a better choice.

Another point. I use the same optic when at home on my Colt that I use for coyote hunting and as a general purpose truck/house gun.

It has proven to be ideal as a calling rifle for song dogs. The coyotes can come in at a dead run and be shot at extremely close ranges, or they may hang up out there 100 or 200 yards while trying to locate the source of the noise. The low powered variable has proven to be ideal. Practicing on jackrabbits is also a good and practical skill builder.

Using the same platform in a variety of sporting and work scenarios builds unconcious competence with the system.

That was rather long winded, but hopefully gets my view across clearly. Remember, I am only one guy, with one opinion, that has been colored by a unique career path. Others may have very different views on the subject.

Cheers.

I'm slowly but surely piecing this project together.

Thanks much, gentlemen!

Out of all I've tried I like this one best for my needs. It's fast on low power and the glass is amazing on high power. I went with the 2.5-10, I think the 1-4 is probably more popular though. I just think the 2.5-10 works better for hunting and target shooting, well for me anyway. In the very unlikely event it was pressed into a defensive role I'm sure it would work just fine. I think the Leupold 1.5-5X20 illuminted would work for me too.



Terry

Terry,

That 2.5x10 Nightforce is #1 on my optics wish list. In fact I was looking in my safes a couple of days ago contemplating getting rid of some unused and little used items so as to purchase that Nightforce and Larue combo.

I am green with envy.

Terry, I just ordered one of the Leupold 1.5-5X20 illuminted with the circle dot. It should be at the house next week and will go on the LMT/RRA, hoping it will make a good combo.
I sure do like the looks of that 2.5-10 though.

Jimmy,

As you know I have been using the same optic you ordered except with the duplex for a while now. I think you are likelu to be very pleased. It takes a little practice to get used to, but once you get comfortable, shooting it on low end with become a natural thing, or as I like to say " a matter of unconcious competence".

Mine too....sweet scope.

Did you guys go with the 24 or the 32?

Like Terrys, I'll go for the 24 when I can afford it.

Does this seem a fair deal and a good lower option to begin with,gents?

http://riflegear.com/p-576-lmt-defender-lower-with-sopmod-stock-and-two-stage-trigger.aspx

You can find better deals if you shop around but a bird in the hand.....

For 600 I'd want to know what trigger. The lowers are worth around 100 bucks these days, parts kit around maybe 75 or so. Then add that fancy stock, and the fancy trigger... and the rest of the parts to get there.

Used to be standard RRA lowers with 2 stage triggers were around 225. I don't think you'll find that anymore but its what it was.

OTOH you can't really go wrong with that other than possibly the pricing.

isaac, you might want to check this out, a fair price at todays market and just have the fellow building it fine tune and stone the standard trigger.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134611021

Quite a bit. I still haven't had to change the battery in the very first ones we got. I also greatly prefer the 2MOA dot vice the 4.
As far as the M2 in concerned, I still use one. It works. I leave it on the second or third highest setting and just replace the batteries about every six months.




When were talking versatility it is very hard to beat a 2 minute Aimpoint in conjunction with a magnifier. If most of my shots are under 300m and they are likely to come at any range within that 300m, the dot+magnifier works very well.

issac, the LMT lower with SOPMOD stock and 2 stage trigger retails for just under $540. I love the SOPMOD stocks and the LMT 2 stage trigger is one of the good ones, not the best but a good one.

That setup would make a very good platform to build an accurate yet reliable gun. For me the SOPMOD stocks give me a cheekweld comparable to a good bolt action stock, has storage compartments for oil, batteries and such and still is adjustable.

TWR

Good info on the stock. Wasn't all the familiar with it.

Didn't know LMT did their own 2 stage.. something comparable to an RRA/Armalite, or a step lower like a Bushy/CLE, or a step above the RRA?

Does LMT do dealer stuff? Need to find if Armalite does dealer too for a friend after some AR10 stuff....

rost495, I have both the RRA and the LMT 2 stage triggers and both seem to be about equal. That being said I prefer a jewell or having the standard trigger reworked to my liking.
The SOMPOD stocks are the only way to go as far as I'm concerned and I have two guns using them and if I could afford it they would all have them. As TWR said the cheek weld is as close to a normal rifle as you can get.
It is funny watching isaac go through this AR build process as he really doesn't know whats in store for him once the bug bites him. The only end result is just how much money you want to spend building AR's I don't think there has been a time in the last 10-15 years that there has not been at least a half dozen complete AR's and enough parts to build a few more sitting in the gun room, heck I have parts I didn't even remember I had.

Jeff, LMT does setup direct dealer accounts and even gives a pretty good LE discount. Problem is like everyone else they are behind...

Even though I'm a dealer, I've never seen one of their 2 stage triggers to compare for myself. I've seen pics of course and seen lots of reviews, they are more expensive than retail on RR's. I remove the brad on the RR disconnector and replace it with a SS pin that is captured by the lower. (thanks to ADCO for the idea) Not really necassary but I like things bulletproof. LMT's option seems to be more rugged but again I ain't seen one in person.

As I've tried to say before, every piece of "bling" on my guns serves a purpose. The stock is tight, as in no wobble, zero, carries stuff and feels better than any other I've tried. Yes they are expensive but what ain't anymore? If it allows me to shoot better, it's money well spent.

Even their standard M4 stock is designed to take more abuse and lock up tight on the tube. I use their bolts and carriers or Colt for all my builds. Again I just like bulletproof stuff.

I wouldn't call that 2 stage thing Bushmaster makes a trigger.

+++++++++++++++++

Jimmy,


Exact same stock as I posted but you found one cheaper, correct?

Thanks for the help gents. I think I'll buy my lower today. If the two you and I posted are the exact same thing Jimmy, I'll do the "Buy It Now" for 495 on the one you posted.

I don't have the trained eye for observation you boys have so I want to be certain. I can read and it appears they are the exact same lowers with one being a hundred bucks cheaper.

BMT....it was a pleasure speaking with you last night and I appreciate you taking time from your hectic schedule to help a dumbass out in this very fun project.

Great way to start. You are lucky to find one given the current backlog that exists at the moment.

Interesting, you couldn't give me a jewel or a tuned standard trigger.

issac, the one jimmy posted has the standard trigger in it. The trigger is $120 extra or so so the one you found would be a cheaper deal.

TWR...The one I posted had the 2 trigger system and was 599. I've not found the 545 price as of yet.

I have been using a Leupold 1.5-5X 30mm VX-III on my Bushmaster varmint rifle. It seems to be doing a fine job.

You likley won't. As stated you will pay a premium finding one in stock. I was wrong on the $540 price, that one has the ambidextrious safety (which I don't like) here's the retail price direct from LMT for the SOPMOD stock and 2 stage trigger and lower
http://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=27&cid=4&session=dc0d8ed0b8d0dbb0adea44afd24fca6c
but again they are way behind on orders and some dealers are adding a premium for in stock status.

Here's a great deal, Denny is a good guy.
http://global-tactical.com/lmtdefender2000withsopmodand2stagetriggerinstock.aspx

The in stock premium is just that.

If I HAD to have something right now, there is no option. I saw guy's paying 225 plus for stripped lowers... I just got in 2 AR10 lowers for 189 each.. and AR15 lowers are back to the 100 dollar area..

Just saying you gotta know how desperate you are at this time.

+1 on Denny and the deal.

BTW - what type of grip is that??

I was wondering if it was the Ergo grip myself. That's the grip I prefer.

Also, does the 2000 lower as to Denny's deal have any significance as opposed to the others that left that year? out?

I don't care if it was made by Jesus Christ, anyone paying that kind of money for a lower is getting ripped.

Sam...you just put a major crimp in my progress!

That is the Tango Down Battlegrip, the one I prefer.

Mannlicher, you are welcome to your opinion but $460 is a deal. Figure the $200 stock and $120 trigger upgrade, all parts are MIL spec and have MIL contracts to back it up.

http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=5
$370 for a basic lower, add a trigger and decent stock and see who's getting ripped.

Apples to apples...
http://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=19&cid=4&session=d788cb50e45cb5554eea2a854887f64a

$20 cheaper, you get a much better grip, a MIL spec sized receiver extension, the stock won't rattle around like Bushmasters commercial version and it ain't got no copperheadedrattlemoccossin on the side.

Bob you snoozed too long on that link I posted for you as jimmyd223 got it. Good snag too!

FWIW Jerrys Sports Center has stripped lower receivers from $89.90 for Stag, DPMS for $99.00, S&W for $107.50 and Armalite for $125 and all currently in stock.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yeah and now watch Jimmy try to sell it to me.

Since you seem to have decided you want a short barreled (16") AR-15 and you still really don't know that much about them, why not skip over all this boutique stuff and buy a solid Basic rifle with a proven reputation.

I honestly can't think of a better gun than a Colt 6920. All this stuff about which trigger, stock, grip, etc. Is at best pretty much unimportant if you don't any real experience with a basic stock setup to compare it to. That rifle in it's stock form will run just as hard as hard as any rifle mentioned on this thread with accessories or not.

Here's another thing about Colt AR-15's, they hold thier value extremely well. This could be very important. With no experience you don't even know if this is for you.

Terry
PS. Still on the iPhone, forgive all the errors.

The Colt is always an option if you think you'd sell it later. I never sell any firearms I buy though but its a good point.

Jeff

FWIW:

If I Understand correctly, we are looking at Coyote/Hog hunting gun (no ear protection), a longer tube is prolly a good idea.

Lots of guys hunt with 20 inch tubes, very successfully.

(Though a Colt 6920 is never a bad idea).

BMT

BMT, I honestly tried to steer him in that direction but I thought he he already been swayed by the 16" barrel guns, that's why I made that suggestion.

IMO, a 20" gun is the way to go.

Terry

I got a little politician in me so I might go with an 18".

Then, everyone's happy...including me.

Now, off to find and 18# upper.

Sexy beats practical sometimes. . . . . .

You wanna come over and drive my minivan?

Me neither.

You wanna come over and drive my 1957 Jag? Hell yeah!

BMT

Jag, nah, but got an airboat?

No airboat, but you get the point.

I don't care if it's 16" or 24"; whatever you drive, I'd still wear hearing protection!!!

The fun really starts after you get it all together...

Agreed!

then spend away my friend.

Trust me I did!

You know the thing is I have the 3 guns I want, the way I want them. I've gotten to this point by trying many different configurations for myself and I don't expect my choices to be for everyone or anyone else and that's ok. But except for LaRue, I didn't pay retail!

Everyone should build/buy the gun that suits their needs, not wants and all any of us can do when asked for suggestions is give our examples. There is no ultimate AR for everyone, even the Marines and Army can't agree on the same gun, why should we.

Thinking on some of these comments reminds me of my cousin's choices against mine. We both hunt coyotes with our AR's, I'd rather call one in close and he likes to see how far he can kill one.

My choices after owning 20" guns both HBAR and pencil barrel, a 17" RECCE , 14.5" M4 and several 16" barrels including bull, HBAR and pencil is the 16" light weight contour. I've ran them all over the chronograph and tried many different bullet weights, none of them kills any more dead than my 16" LW in my situation, out to 200 yards or so.

Now cuzz has a 16" LW that his wife took over and won't let him play with. He also has a BM Varminter with 24" barrel, a 17Rem with 20" barrel and a 223WSSM with a 24" barrel +2" comp. He runs 6.5-20 scopes on all his guns, kills coyotes just the same but he's screwed in low light and tight cover and readily admits it. But he does have a knack for running shots once they're out there a ways.

Would I take my 16" LW to the 600 yard line? Heck no, it ain't made for that but it has it's purpose. I hate to use this expression but "the mission dictates the equipment, not the other way around".

What's your mission?

I've seen a couple of good tubed 16s at 600 for grins, they ain't bad, under MOA.....

3 guns, thats not even a good start.... ya know what I mean...

On the comments on ear muffs/plugs... I agree but I'll also tell you this, I'd sooner shoot my 26 inch without, than a 16... I've shot the 16s with custom plugs in and they are still loud.

My 16" light weight is a Colt 1/7 twist chrome lined barrel, it does just about 1 MOA but I could build a better suited gun for distance...

3 guns is what I ended up with, I've had a dozen or so, trimmed down to 6, then decided what I really needed and wound up with 3 quality guns built how I wanted them. It's hard on a poor boy.

Like I said my 44 YO ears are shot anyway and I don't notice the noise but I don't reccomend getting to my shape, work did that for me. Protect your hearing, regardless of barrel length.

Along with better figuring out exactly what you want, quality over quantity is something that happens with age it seems.

That's what my wife says anyway...

Isaac, you can try G&R Tactical, for both uppers and lowers. They have LMT Defenders w/SOPMOD & two stage triggers for $511. He often has items in stock that the website doesn't reflect. There are three nice complete rifles on the front page right now.

Again, if you've got the $, I doubt you'd regret the Noveske. If you have money to burn, check out the new FDE SPR on Noveske's main page. Absolute 18" Nirvana.

Money to BURN = Les Bear.

BMT

Condition Yellow....thanks much.

"Bout what I expected from my buddy, BMT!

I hope that this is what you would expect from a REAL buddy . . . .

That Noveske 18 is SWEET but I'm not going through all this trouble to get a non-blackie.

I'd of bought it were it black. Gotta be black, man!

Some Krylon would fix that up right proper.

Now I find myself researching the piston versus gas differences.

I'm become much smarter than I was a month ago.I didn't think that was possible!

Where's the popcorn? I want to watch this one now.

Gas Piston is a Red Herring the provides no increase in reliability in the AR format. . . . .

AKs are better in that regard . . . .

BMTT

BTW, this is what the Ultimate AR looks like. Goes from 0 to 1000 yards in 1.55 seconds.

And you guy's are still talking about guns?

My gun is loaded after that one.... or should I say cocked.....

I'm sorry, I didn't know this was frenchmaidsinheaven.com. My mistake.

There goes Jeff, half-cocked again.

Bob just post a picture when you get one......in the mean time I will be shooting!

I will gladly do that,Keith.

You mean the AR,right?

You funny man for a lawyer...no I mean my AR's. I told you it cannot stop with one!

Maybe they don't for what you do.

In properly built short barreled (10.5in) guns and aggressive firing cycles, they certainly do.

I don't believe you mentioned budget, so I don't know if money is an issue so much or not. A number of good companies today can sell you a new out of the box model either partially or mostly tricked out, but you're going to be into solid 4 figures or multiples of 4 figures. After a divorce cleanout :-(, I had to start from scratch again and my first purchase (still my fav) was a CMMG M4 with 14.5 bbl and permanently attached phantom flash hider totalling 16". Very pleased with the quality, fit and finish, and it came with a 1:7 bbl twist, so accuracy has been very good. If a sharp appearance matters to you, the CMMG has a really nice black matte teflon finish over the parkerizing. Actually looks (in finish) much like the Smith and Wesson M&P series. Money was a consideration for me, so I was very happy only spending about $800. (Oct '08) I do agree with most above that one is not enough. A good comprimise might be to have one M4 style in 5.56 for all around use, and then move towards maybe a longer range target model in a different caliber. (considering 6.8 or 6.5 Grendal next)

Duuude . . . . . .

That was a troll post.

Meant to stir the pot and or give a laugh.

BMT

Best priced Tier 1 rifle out there:

BCM complete rifle.

(BMT--love your sig line)

OK Bob let's see your new AR!!!!!!! Quit stalling!

He's busy on a big RICO case right now. This could take awhile.

ahh... i've made it to page 10.......
just gotta thro in my two cents worth..
im building a ''dissipator'' . with CMMG 16'' 1-7 twist. mid-length gas and mid-contour barrel, RR lower with two stage trigger.
the dissy has full length rifle sights, and flull length handguards.
also putting on a A1 stock, 5/8 inch shorter than a A2 stock.
i have a detachable carry handel, and will probly order a la'rue scope mount, and put my leupold 3x9 on it.
in my mind the dissipator is the best of both.
peabody

Just so you all know this is the ultimate AR

Oh? Then where is the BUIS?

This would be my Ultimate, just need the cash. Oh!! it does have BUIS

wow that is a beauty!
forgive my ignorance, what is a BUIS?

BUIS=back up iron sights

Here is beginning of my next project AR



Just received a few more parts the other day, a Jard 3# single stage unit and YHM extended pins, my barrel and quad rail should be shipping soon and then its off to be refinished.

Wow! what a start, more details are needed.

I have a stripped lower and want to build a rifle. I just need to settle on what do do.
carry handle and front sight old school? or sniper long barrel?
or......... I'll drive myself nuts at this rate

So, build both. You can have multiple uppers for that lower.

true. I wanted that 6x45 upper in the classifieds so bad I could taste it, but the timing is wrong, until I get my lawyer paid all projects are on hold

OK Bob quit stalling and get out of your deer stand. Show us the AR!

Funny - on that other forum there was a guy, lawyertype saying something along those lines, too.

I wonder...

Nah, a lawyer does not need an AR to squeeze your last drop...

(sorry, awfull joke)

you're right there!!!

Good Man.

Pay the lawyer first . . . .

BMT

What ever became of this, did isaac ever get an AR ?

of course he did, he's a lawyer! lol

just Joking Bob!