Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Toby Bridges latest blog

Friends,

I got this email this week...jim
-------------------------
Just wanted to bring to your attention a new muzzleloader hunting blog launched this past weekend -
NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER HUNTING .

This morning, I began establishing links to the blog from the NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER HUNTING Web Magazine
site.

A real killer these days is for company's to maintain a very knowledgeable customer service...with the
hands on muzzleloader experience to tackle performance problems. My goal with this blog is to get as many
muzzleloading hunters involved as possible, and to let those who are shooting and hunting with today's
muzzleloaders to help each other as much as possible.

Last year, I personally answered more than 15,000 muzzleloader related e-mails. And, I am sure that many of you receive
more than your fair share as well.

Thanks to the pledged support of Thompson/Center Arms , this blog could help alleviate many of those e-mails and/or
customer service phone calls. Within the next month, I want to have discussions on a dozen or more topics or issues
taking place on the blog. To make this work for everyone in the muzzleloading industry, I could use a little help from many
of you.

Please take the time to log onto the NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER HUNTING blog from time to time, and to make a comment or
two about the topics...subjects...issues being discussed. To have well known writers and "Industry Experts" jump in now and then can only
make this blog more popular...the place to go for information.

Likewise, this blog will remain as open as possible to all muzzleloading brands and product lines...and sdhould be a great place for you to keep up
on current trends...and issues that are important to today's muzzleloading hunter. Here's a link to the blog...

http://namlhunt.blogspot.com/

Competition is what keeps muzzleloading vibrant and growing, thanks to new and innovative products. Working together is
what will keep muzzleloader hunting alive, with a bright future.

Upcoming blog posts include:

SCOPING THE MUZZLE-LOADED BIG GAME RIFLE

SHOOT MORE FOR LESS MONEY

COMPRESSED PELLETS OR SPEED LOADERS?

ONE SHOT, ONE KILL

ARE MUZZLELOADER SEASONS IN DANGER OF BEING ELIMINATED?

FULL ENERGY TRANSFER...OR COMPLETE PASS THROUGH?

DO YOU LOOSE VELOCITY WITH EASY LOAD SABOTS?

KEEP 'EM CLEAN

MONTANA NEEDS A MUZZLELOADER SEASON!

WHY DOES COLORADO, OREGON & IDAHO BAN SABOTS?

TRADITIONAL OR MODERN?

If you have a topic that needs covered, please drop me an e-mail.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

406 542-9751

Big conicals do a better job than sabots.

I made a post on another forum that didnt go so well as an open mind seems hard to come by these days.

The topic was:

Inlines have been banned! Traditional Percussion/flintlocks are the only legal muzzleloading firearm to use. Previous bans on scopes/sabots have been lifted - anything goes!!. What would you be using?

personaly if it concerns bridges or wakeman , ill skip them

Toby has been super nice to me. He has helped me with my question.
He has been a first rate Gentleman with me.

Hope you all have a good day.

Jim & Hammerdown,

With some folks, if you don't agree with everything they say or post...they don't like you.

Sabots and in-lines forever!

Toby

Toby
Keep up the good work.

I'm with you Cap, they're both schills........

Thanks for the link.

Like or dislike someone, that is your choice

Like or dislike someone's ideas, that is your choice

However, attack the person, and you become lower than anything you rail against.

In other words, IMO attack an idea, but never the man. That is the grown up way to do things.

That is unless you can produce pictures and a tape recording proving otherwise.

Feel free to dissagree, that is your choice

actually for me , that has little to do with it .
its not a mater of traditional or modern , though some sure would like it to be .
some of us have been around long enough to see and question many things and have witness the Ides and flow of the tides .
SOME of us are old enough to have read TB in his early days and followed him right up through his most recent incident and controversy .
Now when I say old enough , im not just talking about age but total length of experience on a given subject .
With TB he has a very long line of experience , I don�t think anyone can challenge that . I sure wouldn�t .
Some of us also have more personal dealings and experience with both these folks then just whats read on the net and Thus base an opinions on a little more then , a he said she said . .

I have no problem with those who support, one , the other or someone else concerning any view .
Learn what you can from who you can . Then expand what you know by learning more from your own experiences. Sometimes you will find it supports what those you have learned from told you . Other times it will lead you to question that information .

But as for myself , as I said , ill skip and just take anything said by TB as a grain of salt . It goes much deeper then just helping someone with their inline issues or for that mater �compiling � articles on the subject for others to read .
To each their own .
But through my years I have come to learn that one should never take someone�s word s as the gods honest truth , unless they have actually read and understood that truth . Knowing , WHERE that truth comes from ..
So when I say I skip these two . There is a lot more to do with it then just a modern vs. traditional argument .
some of you have your oppenion . your welcome to it. as for me , i will not challange that oppenion even if i disagree with it .
but i also believe that in return that very same respect should be given .

when its not . thats when i think we have an issue .

Be safe guys and have a good one

Captchee...

With one heck of a lot of words, you really didn't say much of anything.

Me thinks it still boils back to the fact that you sway in favor of tradtiional muzzleloaders...and I lean heavily in the other direction. If you and I have ever had any "personal dealings", it would have to be in regard to the work I do to eliminate backward muzzleloader regulations.

You and I have never hunted together...we've never hung out together...we've never bought and sold each other a darn thing...and we sure as heck aren't related. You didn't screw up and marry one of my old girlfriends did you?

You and I have never had any "personal dealings". Our one and only tie has been muzzleloading. And it is clear you are tradtiional...and I make it very clear that I swing far more in favor of the modern muzzleloaders.

Sabots and in-lines forever!

Toby

Toby-

I've never understood the traditional vs. inlines thing. I can appreciate the folks that use traditional stuff, not unlike the longbow and recurve in archery. It's just not my bag. I say, use what floats your boat and go have fun. The guy toting a Hawken is just as much a hunter as the guy toting an Omega.

We're all hunters here so let's keep the main thing - the main thing.

I like both inline and traditional but when you can take something like this,
Just a prop pic, The target was shot with the 348gr Aerotips.


And do THIS @ 100 yards, why bother with an inline?


Thats my most Accurate rifle that i own right now and i may use it on my bear hunt this fall.

Wolfkill
sorry i did my best

Am I a traditionalist , yep I am . But does that have anything to do with this , NOPE not one iota .
I have no use for someone , be they a politician or a gun owner . center fire , Modern muzzleloading or Traditional muzzleloader , who follows a money trail and flip flops or tells what IMO are half truths for their own betterment .
When it comes to the modern vs. traditional camps , there are people in both that I have very little to No use for . Their names are listed in the same book and on the same line as TB

Now when it comes to folks who IMO are deserving of respect , you will see Doc White amoung those on the very top . Why .
Because when you talk to Doc you get an honest answer . Not based on something he is selling or a product that he is getting endorsements from or because he in some way wants to be seen as a leader in any given area .
Now if Doc was to start a blog , you can be Damb sure I would be over there listening , be it traditional or not . now might i disagree with him ?? yep on some things . but that doesn not any anyway reduce my respect for the man .

But TB ??? Nope , not a chance , he burned that bridge long, long ago .

For the record here , I also supported his opinions on the ML 10 issue . Not because it was a modern muzzleloader or because it used smokeless , but because after reading what he had to say and what he had shown it gave me concerns . But I also had other concerns , past what he was saying . I have stated those many times on the subject , on a couple modern forums . That had 0 to do with modern , vs. traditional but more on TB himself ,.

Again this is just my opinion and im trying to be as tactful as I can , so as not to get nasty letters concerning lawsuits .
I simply do not like the man and the reasoning has nothing to do with modern or traditional . Its about him and him alone
So believe what you want . But I been around this business for a very long time . I know who I trust to give me an honest , un bias opinion and TB is not one of them .
Now if others feel differently , then , ha more power to ya .
But don�t for one munite tell me WHY I feel a given way or WHY I have the opinion I do . I think we all have had enough of that BS from obama

Captchee: I want to be clear that my post was not referring to you. You did not get into name calling. You are entitled to your opinion, and I have no beef with that. Your opinion is just as valid as mine and I think you have done a pretty good job at explaining your position and opinion.

You have a valid point about following the money, and I wouldn't try and say you are wrong. I just have a different take. After all, just about everyone I know thinks highly of Doc White, but where is his business now? Methinks he didn't think ENOUGH about the money! And now we can't buy his great rifles because of it.

For a guy like Toby, Muzzleloading is his life and his livelyhood, so he has to be a salesman as well as an informer. I keep that in mind and think I have learned quite a bit in spite of it. When nobody else was writing about Blackhorn 209, Toby was and I got some valuable info. I always figured that he got some money from them, but his info and results were enough to get me to try it and WOW, I love it. Certainly not traditional muzzleloading, but to each his own.

So, you do make some valid points and they are as valid as mine.

Good hunting!

Cap put it more diplomatically than I, tact isn't always my strong suit...I should mention I shoot and hunt with in-lines, don't own a traditional (still waiting for a great plains with a 1"-24"twist). So my reaction has nothing to do with modern vs. traditional BS.
Cap sums up it pretty well for me.

Tactlessly,

Charlie

fair enough Txhunter , who could ask for more .
wolf knows what im speaking about and no i didnt marry one of his old girl friends
be safe

Toby,

A long time ago I sent you an e-mail expressing my concerns on the issue of requiring states to allow optical sights on BP rifles. There could be ramifications in South Dakota beyond the usual traditional/modern argument which I see as a matter of individual choice (I prefer traditional). You sent me a polite reply acknowledging my concerns and expressing yours in a gentlemanly way. Thanks, I appreciated that.

Jon

I don't know Doc White, but I'd hazard a guess that if he started a blog he wouldn't be over here arguing with people about it.

And why anyone would worry about muzzleloader regulations outside their own state is a mystery to me.

If the people of the state of Colorado want to restrict the use of scopes and sabots in Colorado, it's the business of the people of Colorado, and no one else.

Unless, of course, you make your living off of products that'd otherwise be restricted.........................

Exactly my point. Why not just dispense with the crap and cut to the chase?

I grew up in VA and hunted there for many years, first with a centerfire for deer and then almost exclusively with a muzzleloader. I used a Hawken back then. I always wanted to try deer hunting with a muzzleloader in PA but didn't own a flintlock.

It never occurred to me that what I should've done was tell the Pennsylvanians to get with the program. I always thought if I wanted to hunt in their state, it was my resposibility to learn their regulations and follow them. Or, if I didn't want to do that, go somewhere else.

The muzzleloader rules certainly matter for the traveling hunter such as myself, especially since the rules don't have any science-based or safety-related justification. Right now I have a rifle I know is legal for Colorado and loads for it, and other rifles for other jurisdictions.

Older hunters like me also generally can do better with optical sights as well. I am amused to hear younger hunters say it doesn't matter to them, because I know that time marches on.

jim

Some serious thinking does go into setting regulations for ML hunting, how well it works is debatable.

If optical sights were required to be allowed in South Dakota there was, and probably still is, a real chance that the muzzle loader season would be canceled. Hard to say what kind of a chance as the powers that be understandably won't speculate. I wasn't there but those who were tell me that lower success rate and fewer ML hunters were important in getting the ML season in the first place. Statewide, the general season success rate runs roughly 55 percent with a 16 day season and 79,700 tags issued. For muzzle loader it's about 35 percent over a 51 day season with not quite 6,000 tags.

We don't have an unlimited number of deer in this state: the biologists estimate deer population by county and determine desirable harvest limits. That's the basis for determining seasons and tag numbers. Obviously success rates and hunters participating in a particular season figure into it.

As an aside, 24,600 archery tags issued with a success rate of roughly 30 percent over a 4 month season.

I would have to say that as my eyes get older, I would probably vote for allowing a 1X scope if it was on a ballot. However, I am for keeping ML seasons fairly primative for the reasons nighthawk relates.

If pellets, sabots and 3X12 scopes were allowed in Colorado, I firmly believe two things would happen:

1) A lot more people would apply

2) The success rates would be higher, thereby causing them to reduce the number of tags issued.

These two things would lower my dismal odds even more.

Like they say, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

Well, I would have to respectfully disagree with this, on a couple different levels. Restricting things like scopes, sabots, and smokeless powder most certainly and you could say scientifically limits the range at which most hunters are effective with their rifles. No two ways about that. And if you limit the effective range of weapons that can be used, that makes it harder for the average hunter to kill an animal, no two ways about that either.

As far as Colorado goes, I've spoken with Colorado DOW staff who were involved in drafting the regulations. The ML season in Colorado falls during the elk rut and also before the general firearms season. So the bulls are bugling and can be called in (or at a minimum easily located)and the cows are relatively undisturbed, and all of this is a huge advantage to the hunter.

So Colorado decided that the ML regulations would serve to put the ML hunter at a disadvantage compared to a hunter using a modern centerfire rifle, because hunting during the rut and before the general firearms season was such an advantage. The best way to do that was limit the effective range of the weapons allowed. Things like scopes, sabots, and smokeless powder allow the average hunter to shoot more accurately at longer ranges so they were banned; things like in-line ignitions and BP substitutes don't so they weren't banned. I don't see how you can get any more scientific than that.

And I don't buy the "ethical" argument, that is, a more accurate rifle is a more ethical hunting tool (I know you didn't make this argument but if the thread goes any distance it's bound to pop up). Because ethics don't reside in the weapon, they reside in the hunter and any ethical hunter both practices enough to know his effective range and limits himself to shots within that range.

Lastly, on your comment about age, I'm getting older myself and personally I don't agree with that argument. I have some pretty bad arthritis in one ankle and I know that one of these years (soon) it's going to prevent me from getting very far from the truck in the roadless areas I like to hunt. But that's just something I'll have to live with. I'm not going to try to make the case that old guys with arthritis should be able to ride four wheelers. Likewise when I can't pull a 70-lb. bow, I won't ask to use a crossbow. And when I can't see the fiber optic sights any more, I won't be asking to use a scope. Maybe I'll just hang out in camp, do the cooking, and rib the young guys. That wouldn't be half bad.

Some interesting opinions folks .
There most certainly is a lot of opinions around all the rules .
To many times those opinions � In my opinion LOL � are based on politics .
This country is a republic not a democracy and as such each state is an individual in and of itself , in that it has its own laws . Those laws differ from simply highway laws , to gun laws to civil laws to hunting laws .
If you travel from state to state it s your responsibility to know those different laws and follow them .
When it comes to muzzleloading season and rules . The big issue that I see is that to often folks state things that simply are not true . Basicly they show a lack of knowledge of the state law . Which agin if they are going to hunt in the state , be it muzzleloader or other . You better know the law .
Lets take the scope issue here .
How many of you knew that until just recently here in Idaho it was illegal to use a scope that was lighted in any way or for that mater any type of sight that was lighted other then by natural means . thats not just for muzzleloading but for ALL hunting

Now some I have read have stated that scopes are now aloud here in Idaho for muzzleloading . This is not completely true . Just as when these very same folks stated that they were not aloud . that�s was also not true .
What has changes is a printing of the law , we have had for a very long time. its the VERY SAME law that was in effect during the 2006-2008 issues with scopes and muzzleloading ..

IE a person can go in and under a handicap application get a waver to use a scope . However this requires a doctors statement saying you are to a degree of visually impaired .
=========================
Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any
electronics are prohibited. Except hunters with a visual
disability may apply for a permit to use nonmagnifying
scopes. (Applications are available at Fish and Game
=============================

These same rules also apply for archery. We don�t alow cross bows in archery . But if you are handicapt in some way , you can get a waver .
This even goes for general season hunters . We have rules against shooting from public roads and motor vehicles. But if you need to do that , you can get a waver so you can .

Now some folks are on to the sabot issue . Ahhhhh they say , Idaho doesn�t alow sabots .
Well again not completely true . On one hand for the muzzleloading hunts , the answer is true .
BUT if you hunt in the general weapons season or short range weapons areas , its not true . See we don�t have a general state wide muzzleloading season. What is called general muzzleloading season is really just some given areas . Not all of the state
But when the general any weapons season comes around . For the most part with some acceptations its state wide . In that hunt or short range weapons hunts , you can use what you like . Scopes WITH magnification , sabots 209, closed ignitions , even smokeless powder . In fact last weekend there are areas that opened to the above , just last weekend for elk and deer . Yet the general archery season has not even opened yet .
See with sabots , here in this state when it comes to muzzleloading hunts .we run into a couple issues
One issue is the muzzleloading rules . One in specifically is our caliber restrictions . Basicly no smaller then 45 for deer and no smaller then 50 for elk .
Yet with a sabot a person hunting elk with a legal rifle would be using a sub 50 cal projectile for elk ?????? Now how does that work . Why cant I then use my 45 cal for elk ???
I approached the commission about this many years back , well before the modern rifles came about .
I ask , why is it that we designate the 45 only for deer . Yet for center fire we have no such designations . It makes no since . I can build a load for a 45 that will give better velocities and more more energy at 100 yards then a 30.30 . Yet that 30.30 is legal for deer and elk , but my 45 is not ????
The management answer was that their field studies concerning wound loss rates were higher when the 45 was considered . i was also told that most people were not me and thus even if i could produce such a load , the state had to plan for a vast amount of people who would not .
This was brought up again as part of the 2007 issues �BUY THE MANAGEMENT DEPT�

So now we have a law that states a projectile can be no more then .010 under bore size .
The out cry was again AHHHH!!! Those traditionalists . Well guess what folks . My most accurate load for my 62 caliber is now illegal here .
My 62 cal shoots best with a Patched round ball of .600 . It misses that rule by .010 as the ball is .020 under bore size . does this mean i dont suport the rule ,,, NOPE i do becouse it effectivly forces people to comply with the writing of the caliber law .

I brought up the very same issue again at the 2007 meeting . If we are allowing sabots , smokeless and every other whistle and bang improvement in our short range areas , then why do we not alow center fires like the 30.30 in those areas ?? The answer was range . The state does not want what they consider to be longer range capabilities used in areas that have high levels of human populations . Now that�s understandable but again it�s a contradiction
So what is one to do ? You either support restrictions to the seasons OR you open the season up . But when you open that season up what you end up with is General any weapon hunts . Not an issue here with Me as those type of hunts still give the largest % of hunting opportunity for me and my flintlock .
But if I support muzzleloading hunting opportunity , then do I not then need to support and follow such rules as this .010 rule . You bet I do because if I don�t . then one day there will be no reason to have the seasons at all .


So see even as a traditionalist , I would also agree that sometimes rules make no since . Heck even those of us that work closely with the fish and game and the commissioners many . MANY, times after those commissioners come out from behind closed doors, we are left standing there wondering just where the rule came from or what they were thinking as the end result is many times nothing like what was propsed .

Case in point the side lock rule that we had here two years ago that block most modern ignitions .. What a complete debacle and mess . People though that this rule was based on traditionalists push . Well I can tell you it wasn�t . I was there for all the meetings . I heard the recommendations from the management department and I know what was requested by the traditional groups .
Yes , we recommended a side lock only rule . But that rule was to be applied to areas the state had set aside for Traditional muzzleloading ONLY ,, not for any and all muzzleloading areas ..
But this was in open conflict with brad Compton the game management supervisor who then solicited our support based on the supposed information they had compiled showing an increase in take . Based on that , many of the groups backed his proposal . However within 3 months of requesting said information and not getting it . People began to go back to the original request . IE side lock only in traditional ONLY .designated hunts .
Yet when the commission finished, what we got wasn�t what was being ask for . Now if you want PROOF of that , you can go back staring in 2006 and read the commission minutes . Its all there and it�s a part of public record.

But people didn�t bother to really look at the issues and immediately drew lines and pointed blame. Instead of following the proper channels , many went strait to the governor, who then put pressure on the commission to change the rule despite what they were getting from their own polling data .
So now we have less opportunity in that a couple years back you could actually hunt more .
If I wanted to hunt with a modern rifle , I could . If there was an area that I wanted to hunt and it was designated Traditional only . I simply used that type of system and I could hunt that unit the next day or week if I wanted to .
Then when the general any weapon season came around if I had not filled a tag , I could go out with my center fire, muzzleloading rifle , traditional muzzleloader , bow , sling shot , sspear , rock or what have you and hunt some more . Then if I didn�t fill my tag in that season I had an option to hunt any of the later season hunts .
But not now . Now a lot of these muzzleloader hunts are permit or draw only . If you apply and get one of those tags , it cuts you out of hunting in any other area or any other season for that species .

The end result is still all the same even after this long post . Each state is different . You want to hunt that state , then you follow their rules or don�t hunt that state .
We all may be US citizens . But we are all not citizens of anymore then ones state .
So IMO one should not tell another states citizens what they should or shouldn�t do untell such time as you become a citizen of that state .
Tell then such a person nothing but an out of state lobbyist and should be hung from the nearest pine untell such time as the wolves . Which thier like also forced upon us , have picked every last piece of them and the rope rots away .

Sorry this is so long but I had to say it

"We all may be US citizens . But we are all not citizens of anymore then ones state .
So IMO one should not tell another states citizens what they should or shouldn�t do untell such time as you become a citizen of that state ."

Lots of good info in your post, but can't fully agree with you on this one. For instance, in Colorado nonresidents provide 70% of license revenue. To say that we should have no input in shaping the rules would not be fair IMO. I believe when you pay to play with that kind of money, you should have some input. So I tell them what I think every chance I get. In fact, I have been on an online opinion committee when they were trying to develop rules/seasons for the future. We don't have much clout, but I hope our ideas has some impact.

ahhh yes the license revenue thing .IE I pay 800 to 1000 for a hunt in state X so therefore I should have a say in state X �s management and regulation

have you looked at idahos out of state fee's lately .
Now I ask you , what brings an out of state hunter into another state to hunt . Now obviously if they are willing to pay that high cost , there must be a reason right .
What would that be based on ?? Hunting with other family members living in that state , sometimes is the case . As would be high harvest numbers .
But for the most part those big bucks go to states with not only high harvest numbers but also high chance of taking trophy game . Would you pay Idaho or Colorado�s out of state fee�s if say they only aloud you to take a forked horn mule or a doe ???
Probably not
But as you say , a vary large% of the income from license comes from out of state sales . However the numbers of license sold , does not lean that way .
Now its also easy to say ; well since the greatest amount of money generated from tags an license is from out of state hunter , then those from out of state should have a say .
But we forget that for the largest % of folks , the reason they pay the cost is because of the way the state has managed things . Its because of the way the local people , land owners , ranchers and hunters have maintained their wildlife so as to provide that opportunity .
Who is it that in the off season , maintains the herds . Ie donates and supplies feed for the winter feeding stations when the state runs out of money from out of state tag sales .
Who is it that pays for crop damage to ranchers . Who is it that pays a tax on all outdoor items hunting fishing and camping through the year so as to help maintain the herds .
Now some of that money comes from the fed level . That much is true . But remember fedrial money also comes from the very people who are also living in state X and who also pay at a state level in tax .
Stating a base of allowing out of state consideration because of this is really hypocritical.
Do we alow out of state people to vote in state elections?? Why not . The feds fund the highways , indigent care and a whole lot of funding that states use . So why should one not then under the same ruse of federal funding , not be able to also vote and force changes to other states governments .
Personally I think folks in NY were crazy for voting Hillary into office. Should I be able to sue or force NY to get rid of her because I go there once every few years . Spend a week or so and spend money ?
I don�t think that would ever fly would it .

Now lest say that I want to hunt state X . I pay ??? Oh lets say 1500 for an elk tag .
Then lets say while in that state I pay ??? Oh another 2000 in gas , food , lodging .
Maybe I harvest , maybe I don�t . can state X count on me to buy that license every year ???? Nope.
So who is it that is responsible and is task with maintaining things tell such time as I decide to come back . Basically the people of that state .

We live in a country made up smaller countries that we call states . States are individuals . They have their own laws , their own governments and their own constitutions . They are initiates in and of themselves . People should be proud that they can travel and enjoy all that each state provided. I live where I do because I like it here . People come here because the like the way the people here have made it and kept it . If they didn�t , they wouldn�t come. They know where the boarders are and are free at any time to keep right on going .
Really this whole issue is like the ne resident standing up in a public hearing and exclaiming ; this is how we did it in state X and the laws here are backwards and I think they should be changed to be like state X ..

Some one will enviably stand ask why it is that they now live here instead of state X
IMO out of state hunters have way to much influence now . . Tag costs are way to high for them . But they have to be high in order for the state to justify managing the herds for trophy animals over managing the herds for the well being of the herd .
In the main time the residents are left sucking pond water .
So when it comes to push and shove . What the residents want should always out weight what out of state�s want .
Statse fish and game departments work and answer to the citizens of that state not citizens from other states . .
If people don�t like that , they are more then welcome not to come IMO . Because we residents are the ones who will live with those decisions 12 months a year and year after year over just a week to few weeks now and then


LMAO another long post lol ok so i need to do something about that before i get told to stop writing books LOL
be safe

I'd agree with TX that out of staters should have some input, just as state residents should have some input. Personally, I'd say state residents should have more input than out of staters, but that's beside the point because as long as we're talking about how things "should be," most of the decisions should be made by professional game managers and should be based on what's in the best interests of the resource, as far as maintaining healthy populations, and "should be" as free as possible from politics and commercial influences.

agrreed smoke pole .
all i know is that i can remeber as a boy , our rivers full of salmon and stealhead . then canyon was once one of the best areas to hunt . one had just as good a chance to take a big buck or bull as you did a doe of forkie .
i remeber a time when during the rutt , we bugled bulls by blowing un shell casings or stims of grass .

not so today . i truely believ that the future holds even less . if changing that means we have to cut back . if it means that out of state money takes second seat . if it means some bloke doesnt get that comission on the sale of scopes or such . if it means that hunting has to get harder . then so be it .

myself i sure remeber times when this seemed alot better and the state spent less money .
to me , hunting has change . not only how i think of it but it seems how other hunters and people see it .
thing s anymore just seem to be more based on success and touphies, distances how big a gun someone shoots or how fast it shoots instead of the base quality of the hunt . dont know ?? sad really but i remeber things sooo much more diffrent then what they are today .
just about every managment sections says hunter numbers are dropping . but anymore it sure seems there is more and more folks out there , no mater what season one hunts in ?????
just remeberences i guess

" Would you pay Idaho or Colorado�s out of state fee�s if say they only aloud you to take a forked horn mule or a doe ???"

Well last year I hunted for a cow with a muzzleloader and this year will have the same tag, and loving every minute of it. And when I do have a bull tag, trophies are not very likely in Colorado. I certainly have never killed one.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we have some good ideas too and should not be excluded from the process:

For instance I have long lobbied anyone who would listen that they should increase the age that "youth" tags could be bought in Colorado. Maybe they listened to me, maybe some residents lobbied for the same thing. But they did raise the youth tags age and allowed more people to take their sons and daughters on a great Colorado hunt without breaking the bank.

And I fight for keeping the muzlleloader season primative. Sure I use an inline, but they are no more inherrantely accurate than my sidelock. I bet you can shoot rings around me and my inline with your sidelocks.

So I think we have ALL have some good ideas and willingness to preserve the resource that we all love. Just a blanket statement that we should be excluded and only people that live in the state should have input is just wrong in my book.

Bottom line is that I wouldn't worry too much about nonresidents changing much because we don't have the votes. Just give us some consideration in the process. Besides, TB is now a resident of Montana, and people will continue to say he shouldn't have any say in that state! I say, whoever you are make your case and see who listens.

Been gone a few days, up in the Bob Marshall doing a little back country trout fishing, and doing some photography. Good to see this discussion going where it needs to go...and that is the differences in opinion when it comes to hunting muzzleloaders...hunting loads...and sights that should or should not be allowed.

Here are some things to keep in mind...

1. There are now between 3 1/2- to 4-million muzzleloading hunters in the U.S. today.

2. 90-plus-percent of ALL muzzleloaders sold today are of the in-line persuasion.

3. Polls have repeatedly shown that, where scopes are legal, 80-plus percent of muzzleloading hunters have one on their rifle.

4. Today, the largest age class of hunters are those who are 40 to 65 years of age (roughly 45 to 47 percent nationwide).

5. By age 50, approximately 70-percent of all Americans will suffer some age-related sight loss - mostly the inability of the eye to change focus rapidly enough to allow things at three different focal planes to appear "somewhat" in focus simultaneously. Or, when it comes to muzzleloader hunting, to allow a rear sight, front sight and a deer at 50 or 75 yards to appear in focus well enough for a precise placement of the shot to insure a clean, quick harvest.

Whether you agree, or not, with the use of riflescopes on muzzleloaders during the muzzleloader seasons, it is ILLEGAL for game departments to prohibit those who need a scope in order to participate in the muzzleloader seasons from using an optical sight. It's that simple.

The sky is not falling, and legalizing scopes will not cause game departments to eliminate the muzzleloader seasons. In all, 38 states now allow scopes on muzzleloaders during the muzzlelaoder seasons (in the 49 states that hold such hunts/seasons)...and not one of those states' game departments have recorded and/or documented that the use of scopes caused hunters to commonly take longer range shots. The typical shot with a muzzleloader, scoped or not, is still under 100 yards.

Rest assured, thanks to the more modern rifles and the added knockdown power of today's loads...with a scope...there are a lot more one-shot kills, and considerably fewer lost animals. Also, not one of the wildlife agencies in the 11 states which still enforce "no scopes" muzzleloader hunting regulations has ever conducted a wound loss survey to determine how much game is being lost, being wasted, due to the use of open sights and loads that cannot retain 800 foot pound of energy past 75 yards.

Toby Bridges

So what? Polls have shown that the most popular television show is American Idol. I don't see what polls or popularity contests prove.



You can't have it both ways. You want to say on the one hand that none of the 11 wildlife agencies have ever conducted a wound loss survey, but on the other hand, "Rest assured, thanks to the more modern rifles....there are a lot more one-shot kills." Rest assured?? Where's your wound loss survey to prove your point, the same one you think the state game agencies need to conduct?



So, when hunters get too old to pull a bow back, should they be allowed to use crossbows? When they get too old to walk long distances on their own two feet, should they be allowed to ride motorbikes in the backcountry?

I don't think so.

And the whole argument about scoped rifles being more ethical ("more one-shot kills") is off kilter--it's up to the hunter to know his effective range and keep his shots within it. If that argument is valid and therefore all hunters should use the most effective weapon to hunt with, then bow hunting should be outlawed, especially traditional bows. Those things are really hard to shoot accurately.

One last point--anyone who wants to hunt with a muzzleloader equipped with scope, sabots, and smokeless powder in Colorado is free to do so. In the general firearms season. They just can't use those modern accoutrements during the early seasons when the animals are more vulnerable. I don't see what's unreasonable about that.

Thanks to these forums, ive seen more photos of gut shot deer with a scoped muzzleloader than i've ever seen.

Colorado doesnt have a muzzleloading season for bighorn sheep. So that is not right in my eyes. They give one to archery and the scoped centerfire shooters. Why not muzzleloaders? Shouldnt that be illegal not offering us the chance to use our muzzleloaders.

The law is the law...and neither game departments nor closed minded hunters are above the law.

The legal technicality is what worked to get scopes recently legalized during the muzzleloader seasons in Georgia, Nebraska, Kansas and now Wisconsin. And they will soon be legal during a muzzleloader season near you.

Take it easy with the old folks remarks...we've got you young whippersnappers out numbered.

And for the record...I think there ought to be a muzzleloader bighorn hunt in Colorado as well. And if you want one bad enough...first you need to ask yourself..."What have I (meaning you) done to make it happen?"

If nothing, then you have no gripe.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

So, when hunters get too old to pull a bow back, should they be allowed to use crossbows?




You Bet!

As for motorbikes in the backcountry...not as long as they are allowed to still ride horses (the first ATVs). What makes you so arrogant that you think hunting is just for younger folks?

Shame on you. Does your daddy know how you feel about him?

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

Ain't nothing arrogant about it. Whatever happened to aging gracefully, and doing things within your limitations?

Shame on me? No, shame on you for your thoughtless remarks. My daddy was a decorated WWII vet who passed away in 1976, and how I feel about him is really none of your business. Plus, who's a whippersnapper? I'm on the high side of 50, and as I said before, I have severe arthritis in one ankle, and a bum knee on the other side, and when I'm too old to walk into where I want to hunt, which won't be too many more years (and too old to pull a bow) I won't be asking for special privileges to make it easier on me.

You go ahead and play the age card. The younger generation ain't the only "me first" age group.

Muh daddy is 61 years young and i at the age of 14 introduced him to the sport of muzzleloading. My oldest brother also followed along in our footsteps. This year i'll be taking my brother in law on his first muzzleloader hunt up in northern new mexico.

Whippersnapper would be me as im 25 years young. I always see these old guys on tv telling people how they should introduce the young to the hunting world. Well guess what, sometimes its the young who introduce you older guys to something new.

My dads eyes arent the greatest but every time he sees a hunting show with a scoped inline, he turns up his nose.

Muzzleloading season has been the best thing we've ever done. My brother and dad used to centerfire hunt in the late 80's through the late 90's before i bought my first muzzleloader. After that, its been muzzleloading and filling our tags ever since.

When it comes to muzzleloading...you apparently feel the sport belongs only to the younger crowd.

You must be a quitter...and you're ready to quit.

I'm 60...and spend every possible weekend in the summer and early fall hiking the back country. Just for a day of trout fishing, I'll put in a good 10 miles to hike back into a remote mountain lake...fish for 3-4 hours...and walk back out. And, I'll do the same when hunting season rolls around. My first hunt this year will be a September elk hunt in the Bob Marshall Wilderness Area...which starts with a 9-mile walk to camp...most of it uphill from 5,000 to 7,500 feet to cross the pass.

Physically, I do just about everything I did back when I was 30. But my eyes have gotten older, and glasses don't remedy the problem of focusing on multiple planes quickly. In order to hunt any hunt, I need the use of a scope...and so do most of the hunters in my age class...probably including you. Only real difference between you and I seems to be that I'm willing to admit to that disability.

Maybe you are ready to throw in the towel...but I am not...and neither are the majority of older muzzleloading hunters. If you want to quit...please do. Me, I will fight ridiculous muzzleloader regulations until every muzzleloading hunter in the U.S. can hunt with what it takes to be able to enjoy the muzzleloader seasons. And if it takes filing lawsuits against the b.s. muzzleloader hunting regulations still enforced by a few backward state wildlife agencies (like the CO Division of Wildlife)...so be it. I enjoy the battle...and the victories are so sweet.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

While you're at it, fight for every state to legalize electronic ignition muzzleloaders.

Who's quitting?

I have horrible eye sight without my glasses. So bad in fact that i can not see a 3" black dot at 25 yards. Very very near sighted.

Rather than spending your time calling people online quitters and such, you should be out there fighting for scopes in all states.

Better yet, you have all the know how knowledge. You should be spending your time on here, telling people how to get in contact with the people who make our muzzleloading rules in our states and how we should go about expressing our feelings and concerns to the right persons.

Oh, I dunno, a couple of us are on the high side of 50 and do ok with open sights. I need glasses beyond about 3 feet and the reading glass prescription gets a little stronger every year. I shoot open sight cartridge rifles at 100 yards for fun and wouldn't have a problem taking a deer at 200. For ML I use a wide aperture peep and fiber optic front sight and don't have trouble being minute-of-deer at 100 yards. Others of us use a plain notched rear sight. We try to get deer within 50 yards, that's part of the fun, like shooting over deeks rather than pass shooting. But we practice, you can't shoot scoped all year and expect to be any good with iron sights.

Scopes make it easy but aren't really necessary unless you're pretty bad off. Then a waiver seems reasonable. Again, modern ML gear is a matter of taste as far as I'm concerned and it's all fine with me so long as it doesn't screw it up for the rest of us. I do dislike federal interference in what has historically been a states' issue but it seems to be the way the country is going in all areas.

BigBlock...

Put y'ur glasses back on...and you'll see the quitter remark was f'ur smokepole...he's the one who was crying about how decrepit and broken down he was, couldn't walk or pull a bow anymore, and was about ready to throw in the towel.

I am fighting for scopes in all states...along with the hunter's right of choice when it comes to muzzleloader hunting projectiles, primer ignition, enclosed ignition systems...and even though I don't like compressed pellet charges, I even fight for the right to use them for those who do like them. Heck, I hate the idea of an electronic ignition anything...but if it loads from the muzzle, it's a muzzle loader.

I also introduced my Dad to muzzleloading...when he was in his late 50s...back when I was 37 or 38, and working for Dixie Gun Works. No one is ever too old to learn something new...but they have to be given a chance to enjoy it. If one simply cannot see open sights (and the target) well enough simultaneously to use open sights, shooting and hunting with a muzzleloader is no fun...and only contributes to a high rate of wound loss.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

Gotta ask, "why"?

Other than the fact that you reap some fairly significant financial rewards related to the use of said products.

Which, if that's the true answer, I'm fine with that. Just be honest about it.

Objection, relevance.

Who cares why, what difference does it make. It is what it is, regardless.

If that doesn't work, I'll try, "More prejudicial than probative."

No disagreement, counselor, but at last check, this court had a far lower bar of evidentiary standards, and the rules of procedure did not require 8 course hours worth of mind bending to attempt to comprehend.

Just keepin ya honest, you're too good to need to throw dust in the air.

Fun though, isn't it?

You're such an [bleep]. And I mean that, sincerely.

I said nothing of the kind, as far as "throwing in the towel" or "crying about how decrepit" I am. What I said was (you can go back and read it again if you need to) it won't be too long before my arthritis prevents me from walking in to the places I like to hunt, and when that happens, I won't be asking for special privileges to compensate for my physical condition, special privileges like the ones you advocate.

Just to set the record straight, there ain't no throwing in the towel or crying going on here. Although it's a fact that I have severe osteoarthritis in my ankle (doctor's words) I can live with the pain, and I've learned to get around it. I've backpack hunted for elk (successfully, with a muzzleloader, no scope) the last five years, and the last two I cleaned and packed out the animal by myself, between three and four miles one way, on my back. I work hard to stay in shape year-round so I can do this. So know who you're talking to before you go spouting off at the mouth about throwing in the towel and crying.

So you backpack for trout fishing? Wow, you da' man. I'm taking my 18 year-old son to a lake above timberline this weekend, it's a rough hike off the trail and loaded with cutthroats up to 18". I guess that makes me special too.

If you look at it objectively, you're the one doing the crying about being old and decrepit (poor eyesight), and you're the one whining about needing special privileges to get around physical infirmities. What I said is, when I can't see the sights any more, I'll man up and accept my physical infirmities. I won't ask my state to change the rules just for me, I'll use a scope, because that's legal in my state, I'll just have to hunt a month later with the majority of other hunters in my state.

Come to think of it, what do you have to say about the fact that no one who needs to use a scope to hunt in Colorado is prevented from doing so? What's your response to that? I'll wait on that one a while, I'm sure.

I see the problem here. You are focused on the "rights" of older hunters such as yourself, and you're spending your time and energy filing lawsuits against our state game management agencies, the ones with limited budgets to manage our resources. Great job.

And you do this under the guise of "protecting" our sport when in reality, "older hunters" (although I love 'em) when you use them to fight your battles like this are just another special interest group.

I've got news for you, like it or not, regardless of the percentage of hunters in the "older" bracket, older hunters are hunting's past. If you really want to do something to advance or protect our sport, you should concentrate on its future, not its past, and do something to protect its future.

You want to tell me I'm throwing in the towel and you know not one thing about what I do to protect or advance our sport. Yet you want to beat your chest about filing lawsuits so that older guys can use scopes in the special early seasons, when they can already use 'em in the general firearms season. Yup, a regular Teddy Roosevelt you are.

The way I see it, the problems confronting our sport are not what kinds of equipment that older guys can use, so that's not where I focus my energy. The way I see it, the main problems we all need to work on are:

1) Low recruitment of young hunters, and
2) Loss of habitat and places to hunt.

So that's where I focus my efforts. I'm a volunteer for RMEF, and a lifetime member ($1,500 one-time contribution). I've volunteered my time and helped with fundraising banquets and habitat conservation projects. I'm also a member of Trout Unlimited. And I've volunteered with organizations that build and maintain trails in the backcountry. That's what I do for problem number 2.

For problem number 1, I have three sons and I take them and their friends hunting, fishing, and shooting every chance I get. My youngest has a ranching for wildlife cow tag this year so we're gonna get him his first elk, (hopefully). I also volunteer my time and teach the Hunter Education course that's required of all young hunters here in Colorado. Four nights each month throughout the summer. We have a surprising number of women in the classes too. I've just gotten started but I figure I've helped around 150 new hunters in Colorado get their cards.

That's where I put my time and efforts. File your lawsuits if that's what floats your boat; personally, I think it's like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Or for all the good it does our sport, teats on a boar.

+1 Smokepole. Well said.

I've hunted since 1976 with hammers and inlines, 0X scopes, Variable power scopes, peeps, and buckhorn sights, #11's, 209's, powder and pellets, sabots, conicals, and RB. They all have their place.

Ethics is in the hunter, not a part of the equipment. Let the state's determine what's appropriate for their states.

As for getting old, I used to be able to shoot open sights pretty good, but since I had lazik surgery the sights aren't quite the same...Did I give up on open sights...No, I just cut back the range at which I'll take a shot. My enjoyment is the same.

Guy s. guys , now come on , lets step back here and take a breath . Doing so will make you all see your being baited . What you say will just end up taken out of context , printed on his blog or printed somewhere on the net to support tobys view .

I to believe that when a person get older and encounters medical issues , they should have an option .
BUT what toby here is about isn�t older folks with medicinal conditions its about letting all people use scopes and such . Again I have no problem with someone who is visually impaired using a scope .
This is why I support the waver system . if you need it , , show you need it and then use it . I also believe that if you do get such a waver , then that also should be recorded with the DMV.
As to ATV�s ?? LMAO I own one and personally I think they should be banned from the roads during hunting season . basicly people to often abuse the privilege � not all but a lot of folks do � .
As to the horse being the first ATV ahhhhh ok��.
but even horses are regulated today in that if your going to use the to hunt , you must be feeding them weed free hay ,.

2 years back the IFG poll showed that people were for reducing technologies in muzzleloading . In fact when the IFG polled resident hunters on the side lock issue . The majority of those who took the time said yes to the side lock rule as it was proposed and clearly states TRADITIONAL MUZZLOADER HUNTS .
The vote of those poled was 48% for the change and only 41% against it .
When residents were ask if the IDFG should restrict muzzleloader season to TRADITIONAL ONLY
The vote came in 48% in favor and 44% against
When it came to projectiles and the issue of keeping sabots out , the pull was again 46% yes and 41% no
Now you can check those numbers by requesting that information from IDFG under their 2006 poling and 2007 biological big game rules recommendations released on January 11 2006 by Brad Compton big game manager region 3 at the public meeting .

during that same time toby tried to push the scope issue as a form of discrimination concerning age and the disabled .
I even read where he suggested that states who did not alow scopes im muzzleloading should have federal funding pulled by the BoI . Well that didn�t pan out so well did it toby

Folks what it boils down to is what brings you to a state to hunt is basically because you like the way it is . Realize that , respect it . Or simply hunt in a state that allows you to use what ever you want .

But lets go past all that .
See what toby doesn�t tell you is that the more these rules are laxed , the less reason there is for even having the season . Because just like here . center fire hunters begin asking WHY are there special hunts to begin with . Why are they kept out . It only takes a few years an the rules get broken down to the point that like in some states there is no muzzleloading hunts , its BP hunts that encompass not only muzzleloading but cartridges as well .

Some of you may not know this but Toby wrote a lot of articles on traditional muzzleloading . Folks should go back and read those writings there is some real good information in there . though IMO he does seem to go out of his way trying to debunk much of it anymore

.as I said some of us have been around long enough to see the ides and flow of the tides .

Toby ?? 9 miles to climb 2500 feet LMAO my driveway climbs faster then that now who are you trying to fool that�s a gradual incline

don�t know how you were brought up but in my family , along with age came wisdom .
So as one gets older , they hunt different . I don�t climb the salmon river canyons like I used to .
I don�t hop the rocks crossing the rivers like I once did . I also don�t hunt the same areas I once did when I was 19 eather .
Why because I know that ill kill myself if I do .

Now im not saying I don�t go to those areas . But I know that while im there , if I cant see to shoot . Ethically , then its to far it saves me from doing something stupid .
What are those words to that Toby Keith song ??
My body says ohhhh nooo you cant , but my brain says ohh yess I can .

Ill hunt tell the day I die . In fact I hope and pray that my last breath is taken high up on some mountain., under some big pine .
But I will never reduce myself to the point that killing means so much to me that I have to have some telescope or magic bullet on or in my muzzleloader .
To me anyway hunting means more then that . The older I grow the more hunting means to me and the less killing maters
Now maybe that�s just me ???? I can accept that . But I sure seem to talk to a lot of folks in the field who feel the same way ..

als well said smoke pole . kinda makes one wonder why it is that with all the scopes and high volocity bullets , the general season has such a wound loss

Amen to that. What you left out is that the wisdom acquired with age (plus moving a little slower?) no doubt allows you to get close enough most years to fill the freezer, scope or no scope.

Age has its advantages.

Thanks for the kind words Don. Have you tried a good set of fiber optics (are they allowed in NC?) They're legal out here and they made a big difference for me. The dots glow brightly enough that I believe they go a long ways toward eliminating the whole issue of having to see and line up rear sight, front sight, and the target. They just seem to naturally line up, at least for me.

There's a reason why scopes are legal in 38 states...hunters want them.

The Wisconsin DNR fought that fact for years, and this spring the sportsmen in that state attended meetings in all counties to vote on the subject and in nearly 85-percent of the counties voted to legalize scopes during muzzleloader season.

The majority of hunters want the same in Colorado, Idaho, North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Utah, California, and Alaska. The trouble is, traditional muzzleloader hunters have pumped so much b.s. information about hunters taking longer shots at game into the very muzzleloader illiterate wildlife agencies in these states that these so-called professionals believe it. They're not muzzleloader performance knowledgeable enough to know any different.

Perhaps ALL muzzleloading hunters need to be required to take an eye and shooting exam to qualify for using open sights...you know, kind of like required to get a drivers' license. And if their eyesight is found deficient for the proper use of open sights...they should be required to use a scope.

NO ONE WOULD WANT THAT!

But then, the majority of today's muzzlelaoding hunters in the states just listed are sick and tired of being required to use open sights that a large percentage cannot see well enough to use.

I can guarantee all of you, no matter what side of the fence you're on, this thing is going to get a heck of a lot more exciting than the next season of Survivor.

But, in the end, what's right (and legal) will prevail. And as in Nebraska and Kansas, where scopes were legal during muzzleloader season for the first time last year (2008), by the time the muzzleloader season comes to an end...no one will even remember this was an issue.

Smokepole...Captchee...when does the money begin to roll in? A few stuck in the muck hardheads like you keep claiming how rich I'm getting off all of this...but I sure heaven't seen any change in my bottom line.

The good thing is, for every muzzleloader owner I run into like you two...I hear from a dozen or more who are just darn happy that someone is fighting for their right to use the frontloader, load and sight of their choice. And, that is what keeps me going...and why you are fighting a losing battle.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

So, in other words, you know better what ought to work in every state, than any state agency, state organization of hunters, the guys that wrote and rewrite the rules...................

And you do it all out of the goodness of your heart?

You get no endorsements from T/C? From Harvester Muzzleloading? From Leatherwood/Hi-Lux Optics? From Western Powders/Blackhorn 209? From Green Mountain Rifle Barrel Co.? You know, all those companies that are listed as having "brought to us" your site? No compensation from them, at all, huh?

Yeah, now, about that bridge TLEE has for sale again..............................

If you are doing this to further your own agenda and your own career and thus financial gain, then so be it. Just be truthful about it. And, so far, you're failing miserably on that, or at least it don't ring true worth a damn.

Oh, and BTW - there's a T/C System 1 SS/walnut carbine inline, 209 primed, and BH209 loaded, that'll go afield this year; wearing a 6x Nikon.

And, there's a musket capped T/C Renegade, .54, iron-sighted, that'll do likewise.

The flinter is in the works.

Use what works, use what you want, use what's legal, but at least be honest about what you're doing and why.

I ain't got a dog in the fight, but can see clearly that some do, and some don't, as well as who is and who ain't coming clean as to where their dogs lie.

So are you trying to say that the 90% of those who use inline rifles are being held up by the tiny amount of people shooting traditional muzzleloaders? I highly doubt that tiny % of traditional shooters is keeping scopes off muzzleloaders.

Whats your take on states having antler Point restrictions on deer?

To whom is this posed?

I have FO on a Marlin and they work pretty good. I alternate between a Lyman Great Plains Percusssion .50 and a older T/C SS FireHawk Thumbhole inline with a 3x9 Nikon on top. The Lyman just wouldn't look right with a Fiber Optic sight and I pretty much limit myself to 50 yards with those patched RB anyway.

Its to Toby.

so lets see you stated a couple pages back that the reason i didnt like you was becouse im a traditionalist LMAO . and just who is injecting that thought again into this discussion . but ha keep right on going becouse IMO your showing folks here just why i hold you in such low regaurd . as i said in PM alittle above RW but not far above .
you know what my real oppenion is . YOU need the fight to continue between modern at traditional becouse with out that fight . your simply are just another dude on the block and have no real way to stay in the public eye .

again your statment above shows a complete lack of understanding of the states themselves and the the people of those states and just who does what .

do you realize how modern muzzleloading was accepted here in idaho ???
you didnt have a hand in that . you can think the traditional organzations for that . see you seem to forget traditionaist established the hunt to begin with and in 1991 potitioned the commission to accept modern rifles as a way to boost numbers and get more hunts . Now we have less oppratunity . the F&G told all of us that would be the case . but you didnt get it . so now we have what we have .
thank you Toby . im sure we all are better off .

do you know who got conicals aloud ?? again you can thank traditional organzations for that . in fact mentioning that you know how many modern groups i see at the commission meetings ?????? 0 ,, a few individuals .

do you know who is responcable for comiling information and potitioning for what hunts we have in this state ???? bet you dont .
maybe if folks would get organized and actualy do something with the department concerning getting hunts , we would have more . OHHH but im sorry those days are now gone . last year pretty much did an end to that .


now i could be wrong but i believe that the current BG manager has 15 years of exsperiance with both weapons system.
i can also tell you that in the last 2 years there has been 4 courses given to the commission and members of the managemnet dept of this state . 2 specificly on modern muzzleloading and 2 on specificly traditional muzzleloading . but i bet you didnt knwo that eather .
now what i can tell you with all 100% certanty is that in the fall of 2006 when i was ask to adress the commission on muzzleloading for the spring of 2007 meetings , i gave each commissioner a 25 page packet on modern muzzleloading . i didnt state one word , you did . infact between you and RW you two gave them all the information needed . after all , who am i to insenuate such information or base of knowlage

i also included a short trip to your high proformance muzzleloading site .
the rather enjoyed the artical on the 300 yard bull and some of your write ups on projectiles .
i then had to laugh when the next meeting someone should up with that photo copy of a Rigby rifles and then proclaime it as proof of the long distance ability of traditional muzzleloading .
BUT someone forgot to tell them that the rifle they showed was also not legal in this state and never has been for hunting ,
ohh ya that was good

so as far as quality of information LMAO ohhh ya they got some of the best around .




WOW could you stretch that any further LMAO
again even at a fedrial level you fell short .
would you like to post that info our should i post it for you ?




and just what qualifies you to make such a statment , lets see the numbers . you sure do use alot of words like most , all and majority . so far i havent seen anything to back it up
but again thats tipical , modern TB

you want me to post a copy of that Pole i mentioned above ? i can . ill have to scan it in but i should have time to do that tomarrow



of that there is no doubt . but as for here it doesnt mater . becouse the " I just want more time in the woods crowd " just shot themselves in the foot in a very large % of this state . the rest are draw only . so if you want to hunt muzzleloader , that week or so is your only time your going to get .and that small area is all your going to hunt .
next step is no season at all . but ha i guess you think you have more pull then the general centerfire hunters who are now asking WHY .
again , thank you Toby . YOU THE MAN!!!!!
im thinking BY BY muzzleloading seasons here in idaho maybe in the next 5 years but more like ten




when ??? LMAO
now who are you playing again . not me .

in fact i dont have an issue with you making money of of muzzleloading . heck i make money of of muzzle loading .
but with you , it always seems like the product you support the most are the ones who pay you in someway .

as to the rest.
again
1) you stated idaho does not allow scopes and thus we discriminate "WRONG"
2) you now say that most hunters in Idaho want scopes for muzzleloading " based on poles " again "WRONG"
you throw words like MOST . A majority . Largest %.
By who�s polling do you get that OPPENION ?? By what state level information to you compile that information .
Please post the actual state documentation to support that please


oHH so now it you two is it . guess thats what i get for being civil to the likes of you .

yep i would agree its a lossing battle . but what you just dont get is that its muzzleloading in general . both traditional and modern .
tell me TB , where is Knight ? closed up . why ? where is white ?? closed up .

Savage??? . it would seems that their perant company seems to be thinking their muzzleloading section is a liability . but maybe you didnt read that memo . i posted it here on this board in a discussion about Knight . so how long will they hang on ???
TC?? sold out to S&W if that was good or bad , only time will tell .
CVA ????

tell me toby just how much does it now cost folks on this board to shoot ???
i remeber an artical that you wrote >> im thinking it was muzzleloader ?? 1979 ?? 80 there abouts where you recommended practice , practice practice .
tell me how much practice can these folks here do with projectiles that cost 20+ for a dozen ???
not to mention each time you recommend another powder , its higher in cost then the last

IMO the losing fight is muzzleloading in general and the cancer , well i think you know who IMO is the cancer of all that .


but ha ,again thats just me , so keep on talking

ill just keep working away at my year and a half back log of rifles .
smile , shake my head and say , ; what ever you think toby , you the man . right there boy , yep your a # 1 class A act

soooo anyway , im pretty much done here . i have had my say .
but i do have one question for you , while your here that i would like you to answer for me . its bugged me for some time .

on that savage that blew up on you .
why was it that you did not change out the breechplug when you notice the gas cutting to its face and forward shoulder ??????.
not pointing any fingers here or bliam .
i would just like to know

First question is, how do you know what the majority of hunters in all these states want? Do you have any polling data to support your claims? If, so, let's see your data, or at least a reference where we can look it up.

If not, you should quit claiming to know what the majority want.

If you do have these data, my answer is still "so what." Opinion polls don't tell you what's best for the sport, or for the country for that matter. I suppose you believe that since Barack Obama won the election, he's by definition the right choice, the best man for the job?

How do you respond to that? I guess I'll wait another good while for your repsonse, you still haven't responded to my earlier question; I'll post it again so you don't miss it this time:





Anyway, opinion polls mean nothing in terms of what's best for the state, the resource, and hunters; if you polled hunters in Colorado and asked them whether they thought they should be able to easily draw a bull tag in GMU 201, the overwhelming majority would say "yes." And if they got their way, unit 201 would go down the tubes as a trophy unit.



Very apt analogy since "Survivor" is mindless claptrap, yet wildly popular--to use your own reasoning, "it's what people want, so it must be the right answer."



Let's see, you're on a self-described crusade to fight for a "right" (look up the definition of the word, use of telescopic sights during the early ML seasons doesn't quite make the cut like free speech and assembly), and it's a "right" that people already have, as far as using scopes on muzzleloaders in Colorado. And we're the "hardheads?"

Also, I never claimed you were getting rich off this--maybe you're just not that good at what you do?

Anyway, I'm going to Canada for a few days and then fishing with my son this weekend. I'll catch up with you guys later.

Are you so stuck in your own little world that you are out of touch with others? Or is it that you just listen to your own thoughts...and never to anyone elses?

I have done hundreds of muzzleloader seminars around the country, and share as much as I can about muzzleloader hunting and muzzleloader performance. And at each of those seminars, I always take a few minutes to poll the 200 to 400 people attending (sometimes 4 seminars a weekend). And when the issue of scopes on muzzleloaders come up...70 to 80 percent of the hunters attending are in favor of scopes during the muzzleloader seasons.

In Wisconsin, polls conducted by the DNR have even shown that between 70 and 80 percent wanted scopes during the muzzleloader season - mostly because these hunters need a scope. Now, finally, those hunters are going to have that right.

Next door in Minnesota, at meetings conducted by the DNR, between 70 and 80 percent of muzzleloading hunters have voiced their need & want of a scope during the muzzleloader season. Unfortunately, that DNR still has its head stuck up some dark hole, and continues to deny them that right. But with things changing next door in Wisconsin...things will also change in Minnesota. (Partially thanks to a little legal intervention.)

Smokepole & Captchee, you two might live in Colorado...but I would venture to say that I hear from more Colorado muzzleloading hunters than either of you...and there is a modern uprising coming your way. More people hunt the Colorado muzzleloader seasons with a modern in-line than with a rifle of traditional design - and they're getting tired of regulations that keep their sport in the dark ages.

In 2008, I received slightly more than 15,000 muzzleloader related e-mails - and responded to every one. The number one topic/issue...scoping a muzzleloader. And for every e-mail I received squalling about how the muzzleloader seasons should remain traditional, and how scopes should never be allowed...I received a dozen or more that thought otherwise.

So hang in there boys, change is coming your way. Your side worked awfully hard to eliminate in-line rifles...and failed. Your side continues to fight better performing saboted bullets and scopes...and that too will see change as the 90-percent modern side of our sport continues to swing more and more in that direction.

I know, you claim to be both modern and traditional...but your attitudes say otherwise. Me thinks you talk out of both sides of your mouths.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

LMOA , you dont listen or read do you . So now I live in Colorado
Are you sure its no Alabama ?:/

i dont claim to be both . i calim to be traditional .

With you its always about more for you . You never listen . As soon as somebody give concessions or reaches a compromise , you push for the next . It never ceases and many times that push is seen in the very next years proposals
First it was a need for conical over RB, synthetic over Black powder . gottat have em . So people reach a compromise. Then the next year you push for something more . Now its sabots and scopes , and smokeless .
Then what ? Whats left toby ??/ you just don�t seem to realize there is nothing left but the total removal of the established seasons . Myself , I cant say at this point that I don�t or wouldn�t support such a move .
What will you do then ??? Fight the center fire crowd to keep them out ?
See right now , here in Idaho ,,,,I think we have a reasonable compromise. Modern rifles are aloud under restriction . No better then traditional rifles and no worse . Sure some traditionalists arnt happy but neither are many modern folks . But it is a middle ground that many folks agree upon .
I guarantee you that with the current regulations we have , disallowing scopes , sabots , 209 primer and smokeless powder , there is not a modern rifle on the market that will out shoot a traditional one . Be that in accuracy or range
But then people like you have to come in , from out of state and stir the pot to the point , no one can get along . Why ? So that companies that suport you can get a large market ??? Sure seems that way .

Never mind that all you want or could want , is aloud for the largest % of hunts in this state , yet your not happy with that , you have to push to get those same things accepted in what little muzzleloading hunts there are here . When you don�t get it , you point fingers , and shout blame and proclaim a fight .
Why ?
again , Im thinking you have to have keep up this fight even when there is no base for it .
an enemy is needed because without it there is no base for you . Case in point this very thread which was started about your blog and you . Yet you have once again managed to twist it away from you and into a modern vs. traditional argument.
To bad because you have a chance here to change peoples views . Instead you have chose just to enforce those opinions

Toby;

You never have addressed the sponsorship and compensation question. Why not come clean and say "yeah, I push for this because it's in my financial interest to do so"? Making money ain't a bad thing, you know.

BTW - use of a scope during any season isn't a "right" (look up the legal definition of such); it's a privilege, and calling it anything else is foolish.

One really...Really...REALLY big difference between you and I Captchee seems to be that you work hard to prevent any new growth in muzzleloader hunting...while I work in the other direction.

New participation is what spurs new growth in opportunities.

But, I have a feeling that you and smokepole work diligently to prevent new participation simply to keep the odds of being drawn for a Colorado muzzleloader tag a bit more in your favor.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

Likewise, your argue that the hunters "need" the scopes, is hollow. If they are that poor with irons, they need more practice, not optics.

Further, your "poll" numbers are unconvincing, as they are biased, unsubstantiated, and unsupported. Data from a scientifically valid poll would be welcomed, though, if you can provide such.

What the heck do you mean..."come clean"?

What do you do for a living...and do you do it for nothing? I seriously doubt it.

I've worked in the "industry" for 35 years...because I love it. Probably could have made a hell of a lot more money doing something else (did for a while)...but muzzleloading guns and muzzleloader hunting are what are closest to my heart.

If you hate what you do for a living...I'm sorry. I love what I do...even if the pay honestly sucks.

Toby Bridges

As for you other comment about hunters need "more practice"...I don't disagree. But one cannot use what they cannot see.


NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

you just cant get over it can you .
your so sure you know all and it has to be what you say . well again you are wrong .

Once again , you need a fight , you have to have it . it�s a simple must

The ones who "can't see" irons are damned few and far between. You know that to be a red herring, as does anyone else.

I'm a financial adviser. I very much like what I do, and make a good living doing it. You represent various manufacturers within the muzzleloading firearms industry, correct? Specifically those that have a vested interest in the utilization and expanded utilization of in-line and "modern" muzzleloaders, correct?

Nothing wrong with that, but you are avoiding a straight answer to those questions like the plague, and I can't figure out why.

If my guesses are correct, then it goes to a logical conclusion that while you may truly hold muzzleloading near and dear to your heart (and that I don't doubt at all), your tack and objectives are not wholly altruistic; you will benefit if your objectives are met in a financial manner. That doesn't undermine your position, but it does color it, and thus any evidence you present would be far more useful and well received if it were unbiased. To date, that hasn't been the case.

Look, I just hunt, and I enjoy it. I use everthing from a SS, synthetic stocked, customized, scope (with tactical turrets) mounted centerfire to a cedar-shaft, feather-fletched arrow flung by an instictively aimed recurve, and just about everything in between. If scoped in-lines are cool; I use 'm. The same can be said if it's irons only, PRBs, and soon-to-be flints only. The variety can make it fun, as can the challenge.

I hope you are aware that Louisiana now permits scoped, single-shot, breechloading rifles of "antique design and caliber" during their BP season (NEF Handi-rifles in .45-70 are now the norm), and that NC may well abolish any "special seasons", opening deer season all at once and to all weapons for the entire season. The rationales were the same in both states, and two-fold: the first to increase participation and decrease deer populations, and the second was in response to the increased modernization of BP firearms. On the second point, both states found it to be so near a modern rifle in current utilization and form that any distinction from season-to-season was rendered irrelevant. I mention this as a "be careful what you wish for" caveat to your efforts; you may just outsmart yourself.

You are right, however, that it is increased participation that we truly need. That should be our unified goal. Outside of that, I'm all for keeping a little variety, and keeping the factional in-fighting to a civil minimum.

You sure about this? I heard that it failed to come to vote.

Yeah NC still has designated seasons. This is from the 2009 - 2010 regs.

EASTERN DEER SEASON
Bow and arrow: Sept. 12 to Oct. 9
Muzzleloader: Oct. 10 to Oct. 16
Gun: Oct. 17 to Jan. 1
CENTRAL DEER SEASON
Bow and arrow: Sept. 12 to Nov. 6
Muzzleloader: Nov. 7 to Nov. 13
Gun: Nov. 14 to Jan. 1
NORTHWESTERN DEER SEASON
Bow and arrow: Sept. 12 to Nov. 13
Muzzleloader: Nov. 14 to Nov. 20
Gun: Nov. 21 to Dec. 19
WESTERN DEER SEASON
Bow and arrow: Sept. 7 to Oct. 3 and Oct. 12 to Nov. 21
Muzzleloader: Oct. 5 to Oct. 10
Gun: Nov. 23 to Dec. 12

My dad is 71 and still hunts with a sidelock with irons. He hates inlines. There are plenty of older hunters that can use irons or peeps.

Ya better take that one to an optometrist...I'm sure you'll learn different.

Older eyes for 70 or more percent of those over age 50 don't work the same as they did at 30 to 40.

That's a fact.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

Nice dodge on everything else posted.

No one ever said that the eyes remained the same, only that your assertion that the "majority" you keep mentioning that "couldn't see irons" was bunk. You know that, and your defense of your position is weak.

Ad hominem retorts won't win your position. If you truly cannot support your position and defend your assertions any better than what you're showing, perhaps your position isn't as strong as you'd like to have folks believe, and maybe that financial incentive is stronger than you'd want to admit.

I hope I'm wrong on that last paragraph, as you do represent hunting and muzzleloading to a wide audience, but thus far, you're really not giving us much to grab on to.

Crowrifle;

I stand corrected. It will come to a vote in the next session, though, and as I knew last year, there are enough votes to pass it.

Ive pretty much hunted game units from trinidad, all the way up to steamboat springs area and south of it around Vail. You know how many muzzleloader hunters ive ran into that bitched about having to use open sights?






None.

Dad wears glasses now. A set of Lyman sights and he hits where he shoots, targets or deer. How do argue someone can't see when they hit the targets on the range and bring a dead deer in?

Originally these special seasons were set for primitive weapons because of the difficulty of their use and difference to modern firearms. The line doesn't exist today.

Stop being so lazy...do some research and you'll see the truth. Or, are you afraid of the truth?

There's a reason why the Department of the Interior accepted the complaint filed against 15 state game departments for refusing to allow muzzleloading hunters to use scopes on muzzleloaders during muzzleloader season - and that was because it violateS the rights of those who need such sights to be able to participate in these seasons.

And whether or not you know it, the DOI demanded that each of those states make provisions for those who do. Smart state wildlife agencies, like Georgia, Nebraska, Kansas and Wisconsin were forced to realize that such a large percentage of those over 40 do indeed need to use a scope for proper shot placement. That now brings the number of states meeting the needs of ALL muzzleloading hunters to 38 (39 counting Montana which lumps muzzleloading with archery and handguns for limited range Restricted Weapons hunts)...and just 11 who do not.

I'd say getting four states to reverse their "no scopes" muzzleloader regs in two years is a pretty good track record. What have you done to make the sport of muzzleloading more appealing to more hunters?

If you want more to grab onto...get off your lazy butt and start doing your research.


Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN
MUZZLELOADER HUNTING

Look up "rights", Toby. Use of a scope, ain't a "right". And, as a trained attorney, I do have a fairly good grasp of what that word means in a legal sense.

Now, how about addressing the other points that you have consistently avoided.

And, as for "getting off your lazy butt", how about taking your own advice and finding some actually verifiable data from scientifically valid polls to back up your assertions? Or, are you too afraid to do so?

I'll reiterate the salient points, since you obviously have a problem with comprehension:

Toby;

Feel free to address the totality of the points made, and try not to cherry pick the parts that you can't support.

Care to find something to support your opinion on "hunters can't see the iron sights", that will actually carry some weight, Toby?

Have at this one, too, Toby.

Yeah I heard the same. Hope they push it through this year. I'm getting tired of my muzzle loader, and want to carry my Ruger 45.70 during the rut.

BTW - Mr. Bridges, if this is how you represent the sport and your agenda to other hunters, God help us if it's anywhere close to this when you're in front of Dept. of Fish & Game officials and the general public.

I understand (though you won't admit it) that you have a financial stake in your positions and your agenda, and that's fine, but you may want to find ways to assert your position and agenda with verifiable facts (i.e. not what you "think", but what can be proved without bias), and without being a jackazz in the attempt.

Thank you, for supporting a whole lot of my points, RIGHT there.