Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Tell Me About The 404 Jeffrey

Actions that will work; brass availability,factory ammo,bullets that work,etc.?

Seems like a logical step over the 375H&H and according to what I hear and read (all I know about it,really),does so with low pressures and moderate recoil.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks!

You will need an action made for the RUM case, a Winchester Model 70 or Rem 700 in 300RUM would be the perfect donor, as would a CZ 500 in 375 H&H. Any H&H length action would work, but the RUM actions already have the feed rails opened up and are easier to convert. The CZ 550 is simply so massive that little internal modification will be needed; that said, you'll need a gunsmith who understands how to make a big bore feed.

Hornady has factory brass and the reports I have heard are that it is excellent; their bullets have received good reviews as well, however Woodleigh softs and solids seem to be the winners in the .404 category.

Hornday either has, or will be producing, factory ammunition.

You can handload any of the 416's to match the 404 in terms of pressure and velocity/recoil, but you can never handload a 416 to match the cool factor of the 404. That huge sloping case gets'em every time

I want one bad to go with my 450/400 Ruger #1 as the Jeffrey was designed to duplicate the 450/400 in a bolt action.

Oregon: Thanks.So it seems a pre 64 M70 action for the 300H&H should work OK? Glad that Hornady has brass as opposed to some other more exotic source.

I know a 416 of some type will work,but I suspect I want the 404...gun nut thing

I think I have probably used the 404 more than anyone else around here..I have built a dozen or so of them for myself and ended up selling all of them..Its a wonderfull cartridge with a world of nostalgia behind it..I do recommend a Mauser Mod. 20 big action or one of its counterparts as opposed to a long action 98 Mauser conversion or a Mod. 70...Todays the most proper action a available is the new control feed Win M-70 in the RUM calibers that are built around the 404 case, they work well indeed and are second only to a full size Mauser. I have never been satisfied with the CZ in 404s...With 95 grs. of IMR-4831 you can get 2600 FPS plus depending on barrel length, you don't have to settle on those old 404 velocities of 2100 FPS..I loaded all mine with 93 grs. for a mild pressure and over 2400 FPS..that is a buffalo and elephant gun. I have probably shot around 30 or 40 buffalo with the 404 Jefferys, and a world of plainsgame. It can be much more gun than the 450-400 by about 500 FPS if you wish..I will say it kills much better at 2400 FPS than it does at 2000 FPS and the effect on buffalo is apparant to the eye and at 2600 FPS, the big bulls shudder at the shot..also at 2600 FPS I shudder at the shot.:) and Jim Brockman cussed me for lending him those fast loads to test his rifle, that made my day!

All this said, the 416 Rem or 416 Ruger is just as good and a hell of a lot cheaper to build or purchase in a new rifle, and I suspect Ruger will be the first .404 company in years with the 404 Ruger thats on the drawing board, and a cinch to put together on a std. Mauser, FN, or M-70..I have built two of them so far.

Bob, I've gotten interested in the 404 and have a No. 1H chambered for it. It is a very interesting classical rifle, but like you, I see the 404 Rimless NE as a magazine rifle round. I found a M-70 Classic (SS), now waiting for conversion, as I think that's the optimal modern starting point. The feed rails and follower are already optimized for the Jeffery case and the bolt face is very close, so all that will save some work.

Comments are based on having loaded the cartridge with 400 grain bullets to the 2300 fps range and 450 grain Woodleigh solids to the 2200+ range, which is a significant improvement over the 2125 fps/400 grain MV original specs that made the round's reputation as a DG (elephant) cartridge. Although I believe Ray's assertions about 2600 fps MV, it'll come at a very significant cost in recoil - that's 416 Wby territory - and probably represents lots of KE expended on the off side of just about anything short of body shots on ele.

The 404 Jeffery Hornady brass I've gotten seems uniform and, if it's manufactured to the same specs as the 375 & 416 Ruger cases (which I've reloaded many times in the 404-375 Ruger at these same MVs with the .423" diameter bullets), should prove strong and last many reloads. I haven't shot the 404 Hornady Jeff cases yet, so can't comment on their durability specifically.

In a reasonable weight rifle (9 - 10 lbs) recoil becomes very noticeable in the 404s above 2300 fps IME. This round's forte is balance - significant power and moderate recoil in a trim and lively rifle IMO. All the nostalgia of the 375 H&H and ample power for anything to boot. Carpet diem, Bob, go for it!

When Ruger introduced their then new MkII Magnum Rifle, it was availiable in 404 Jeff. Don't think they sold many of them. E

Hi Bob,

I had a Win classic 300 RUM model 70 built. My smith had to open the bolt face a tad but other than that it was a rebarrel.

If you have a good smith to work with a pre-64 would make a nice rifle.

I think I messaged you a picture of my 404. The 300 RUM makes a nice conversion.

I already had a 375 H&H so I wanted something a little bigger.

Go for it.

Roger

My M70 404 Jeffery

When Photo bucket comes back on line.I'll send pictures of a Mauser A-type original...I love the caliber,one tip,only use Mag primers,it take a good spark to make it work right...

This is a Walter Locke & co 404 jeffery Mauser with a 26 inch barrel. I think the rifles were actually built by Jeffery for Locke.

This particular rifle sold for $2850 earlier this year at auction.

I bet this rifle has some stories to tell.

Roger: Oohh....that is sweet! Thanks for the pics! Guys, thanks to all for the responses,all very educational.....

Ray, I gotta keep recoil a bit under control....at my age I suffer few physical ailments but don't handle a bunch of recoil like I used to...shoulder issues are cropping up and I still shoot about anything I want,but enjoy hard kicking rifles less than I used to.....I have little experience with anything over 375 but handle that nicely.Unfortunately no one I know back here runs a 404 or similar rifle so I have no way to try one in advance.....

I would stay at the velocitiy levels Wildcatter recommends....just to keep things manageable.

Now that I have this good advice I am mad at myself for passing on a Winston Elrod rifle in 404 on the Classic action...it was a very nice rifle that I almost bought...but did not..

Roger that rifle looks perfect!

My 450/400 with a 400gr Woodleigh at 2050fps out of my iron sighted Ruger #1 is very manageable; I fitted the stock with a 1" red Pachmayr decelerator that increased the LOP to 14".

I find that gun more pleasant to shoot than a 338 Win Mag I have that weighs the same; it really is a big, slow shove, unlike some big bores which are big, slow kicks in the a**!!

Don't feel too bad I passed up an Al Biesen 404 Jeff at a very reasonable price before I knew enough about the cartridge. Hard earned lessons ...

Wildcatter:...that hurts!

This is a Charles A.Hayer of Nairobi 1924 Mauser A-type sporter with a G&H side mount.

After a couple of false starts I am having a 404 Jeffery built, hopefully it will be complete by July 2010.
Here is what I am having built.

Granite Mountain Standard Mag. Action, 23-24" Krieger barrel w/intergal quarter ribb, one standing and one folding front sight, barrel band, 4 down in mag., most likely pivot mounts, probably going to have the action color cased, cross bolts, etc in a Turkish walnut blank I bought a few years back.

Ralph Martini is building the rifle and I am really looking forward to having one of Ralph rifles.

Both Hornady and Norma make brass not sure if other sources available. The Hornady is more reasonably priced and available from most reloading sources such as Graf and Sons, Midway, etc. Hornady and Norma both produce ammo not sure who else. As far as bullets are concerned there are a few more choices Barnes, North Fork, Hornady, Swift, Woodleigh, GS custom, others?. Redding, RCBS make dies, and possibly Hornady, I had Lee make me a factory crimp die. I am looking forward to working up load for this rifle. Most likely going to see if I can target 2400-2500 fps with 380-400 grain bullets, I think that will be my substitute for a 375 H&H.

You can go to Graf and Sons and Midway and see what if available. RWS may produce ammo but not sure. Hornady is really doing us all a service by producing some Big Bore components and ammo.

Best of luck in your pursuit!

JJS: Thanks for the info.Your GMA rifle sounds fabulous!

I bought a 404 from Wayne at AHR, Inc. It is based on a CZ action. It shots 400 Gr. TSX at 2450 FPS. I also used the 320 Gr. GS Customs in Masailand this year. They are shooting @ 2700 fps. They performed great on Buffalo. My friend used the 400 Gr TSX load in his rifle for LDE and Savana buffalo and they also performed well.

I am going to try the 380 Gr. NorthForks if I use it for another Buffalo hunt.

I use F215M primers, Norma Brass, I had Lee make a guide for the Zip trimmers. Reloading Die's where expensive when i bought them, around $250 for RCBS. Now I see on midways sight Hornady has dies for $80 and the RCBS are down to $130.00. Midway also had some one time hornady 400gr softs blemished bulk bullets for about .50 each for practice.

Either way i really like the 404.

Man oh man Roger, I would have run that bid sky high on that rifle had I been there, $2800 is absolutly criminal for that gun..I have seen less bring $5500 or more.

Wildcatter is spot on when he says he thinks my 2600 FPS load in the .404 would serve one with excess recoil, and that is only putting it mildly..It will get your attention, basically it an only be described as hanieous, but safe as to pressure...

Keep in mind with the .404 Jefferys has about the same powder capacity as the 416 Rigby which is nothing more than a 416 Weatherby without a belt..the 404 will easily come within 100 FPS of the Rigby or Weatherby if you handload it. With modern powders, specifically IMR-4831, the 404 is the wonder of wonders..

I have mostly used the GS Customs 350 gr.(?) HPs, Northforks 370 gr. softs and their fantastic Cup Point bullets; I also field tested the 450 gr. Woodleigh softs and solids on buffalo and quite a number of them btw.. You would be hard pressed to beat those big Woodleighs with any bullet..I would give each of these mentioned bullets a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10.

FWIW, a 400 grain bullet at 2375 fps produces 5000 ft-lbs energy. that's a significant increase from the original 404 Jeffery load (400 grain @ 2125 fps, KE ~ 4000 ft-labs). Without pushing the recoil envelope to the punishing range 5K ft-lbs is big-bore NE (450-470 class) terminal ballistic performance.

The 400 Swift AFs and the 400 Barnes Banded Solids can be made to shoot close to same POI - although it may take a bit of experimenting - and seem to work well on African game at ~2350 fps, based on my very limited experience.

landandtimber: Thanks for the info and that is a great rifle!Does NF make two weights of bullets? 400 and 380 gr?

This seems like a really neat cartridge with a lot of flexibility due to lots of powder capacity......