Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .458 Win in Africa??

Thanks, I appreciate that. I do love Alaska. My most challenging hunts have been from there. From my very little experience, it is at the same time the most hospitable and inhospitable place I've ever been.

Ray,

If only 500gr .458" bullets are suitable for DG, how in the hell did the 450NE's, shooting a mere 480grs at real world velocities of 2050fps to 2100fps (and rarely actually reaching 2150fps) ever acheive the success and the attendant fame that they did, eh?

BTW, even in your favorite Lott, if you use mone bullets you are better off with 450's because of the excessive length of the 500's, unless you rifle has faster than typical twist.

But you'd be even better of with 550gr Woodleighs at 2150fps, something the 458wm can't approach.

Con,

Probably the perfect set up for your 458wm is the Woodleigh 480 grainer with the 458wm cannelure. (For US shooters, now offered through Huntingtons, I have been told.) When I was messing around with H 4895 and 500gr Woodleigh solids, I was getting inconsistent velocities when I reached 2150fps or so. But, the H 4895 was excellent for 450 NF's and very consistent.

JPK

Just having acquired a .458Wn and just having converted it to .458Lott before even firing it I must say I do not understand the argument. For a lousy $75.00 I have both. Can anyone give me a good reason why I or anyone owning a .458WN should not have done the punch out? I now have two rifles for the cost of one. What the hell is wrong with that?

In all the .458's I have owned or reviewed, I fould the same results and Fin and Phil with that 400gn X bullet for penetration. Still have a few loaded up for my .460 which can toss them along at 2900fps though I prefer 2750fps as it is a bit easier to shoot.

It was also one of the most accurate bullets I ever shot in .458 Caliber. I sent a 5 shot group at .6 MOA to Barnes for their manual, though they have not published it as yet.

John

Wow. I should cut and paste that quote directly into the 257 wby vs 300 win argument in one of the threads above.

I can hardly wait for elk season next year, or to get back home (3 months and a wake up) and drop that on someone at the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation fund raiser during the annual 300 Wby vs 300 Win argument.

Thanks Phil!

Con,

Checking my data, I find I got about 50 fps more velocity using 450 grain bullets with the same weight of AA2230 as I got with H4895. If AA2230 is not available in Australia, I would try working up loads a grain at a time using H4895. As a "guesstimate," I would suspect you could get at least 2100 fps and maybe 2150 fps with H4895 and 500 grain bullets. You might even get more. I got 2200 with AA2230 and 500 grain bullets.

Here are several:

1. You don't have two rifles. The two cartridges are basically like peas in a pod. It's like having a .243 and a 6mm Remington. If you ever have a shortage of ammo in Africa, you will probably find .458wm easier to get anyway.

2. What about magazine length? You might have to lengthen the magazine for the cartridges to fit. If you don't, why not just save your $75.00 and use another groove on monolithic bullets? Have you ever measured the freebore on a .458wm? You'll probably run out of magazine length before you run out of chamber length.

3. What about feeding? You might have to rework the rails. Or you might not. .458 feeding can be touchy. For instance, flat point solids work fine in my M70 but jam up in my PH's M70.

4. In general, .458 Lott reloading is more touchy. Unless you shell out for an extra length press, it's kind of difficult to fit the case and the bullet in it. Longer cases are also more prone to collapse slightly if you use too much lube, have them a bit off center, etc.

5. Firing .458wms in a Lott chamber may not be very accurate due to all the freebore you are adding.

6. Do you know anyone who would buy a .300 Winchester magnum and have it rechambered to a .300 Weathereby before even firing it? I didn't think so.

Heck, I don't have to check with Phil, we been cuss'en and discussin this subject for years..:)

Everyone of you keeps coming back to 400 and 450 gr. bullets, don't deny it, just read your own emails above! The gun was supposed to shoot 500 gr. bullets!! it could not handle them obviously!! wake up America, smell the roses!!:)

Bear are softer than buffalo and problems with the 458 arise with elephants only as a rule, or that has been the history of the caliber and its long list of failures!

As to the 480 gr. vs. the 500 grs.? hey, ain't that splitt'en hairs? Besides in reality, the 480 just might be the best option of all, and nobodys trying it..Hmmmmm

You guys really have to reach to justify your .458s. You must understand it doesn't have to be that way, the 458 Lott is your salvation, your come to Jesus meeting, your life is at stake!:)

Amazing how protective folks can be over a gun they spent their hard earned bucks over! even a .458! but its OK, just not quite there IMO...

Like I said, the 458 is a killer, why do I keep getting questioned on that as I have never said it wasn't...I clearly stated it will kill anything with a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS, I just don't think it is a good deal with 500 gr. bullets at 2200 or more claimed velocity and its proven that to many., and I will always KNOW it was poorly designed in the first place to please the masses who were into the short magnum craze of the day. It should have had a 3" case to start with and none of this conversation would have taken place time and time again over the years...All loads mentioned have over 100% load density, does that not mean anything to you fans of the caliber? apparantly not, but its a consideration to me.

I don't necessarily disagree with some of you, and I certainly respect many of you who are valiantly protecting your child, but you really should punch it out a tad!!

Please don't hate me for disagreeing with you, I like all you guys most of the time!

For those who want to hang on to the past, it will be difficult to convince you that the 458 win. mag. is capable of producing 2150+/- fps with 500 grain bullets and will do so safely without heavily compressed loads. However, if you care to do some current research, go to most powder company web sites or pick-up a current reloading manual you may find out differently. Even better yet take some of that information and go out and choronograph a few loads...It may have been awhile sent you may have done so?

A few reason why not to go to the trouble of the coversion to Lott have been mentioned. Another good reason, if you have a pre-64 or other vintage rifle why screw with...makes no sense. I bought a 1965 Browning Safari in 458 win. mag. and I really like the feel of this rifle and the weight...there is no way I would convert this rifle to a Lott!

If I was going to purchase a new CZ550 and I had a choice between the Lott or win. mag, I would pick the Lott. The CZ is a large action rifle will handle the Lott just fine and it weighs close to 10 lbs.

It's all just a matter of preference and available choices but to make statements based upon the "past" and not taking into account today....well that does not make much sense to me.

I think both the Lott and the win. mag are capable of doing the job with today's bullets and powder choices. There are advantages to each......

Actually the original 458 Win was designed to fire 510 gr bullets and according to tests run for the NRA at the time of it's inception they actually did reach 2150fps with the 25 inch bbl of the 458 African. When WW decided to lop three inches off the barrel of the African model they also listed the velocity as 2040fps. Which it most certainly did and is the round that was hands down the favorite of African PH's for 50 years.
With today's powders it is easy to again acheive those velocities with 500 gr bullets. Unless the elephants and buffalo of today are tougher - or today's shooters can't hit as well - it is still adequate . I, and obviously a lot of highly expereinced African PH's, seem to think so. So did Jack Lott as 2150fps with a 500 grain bullet is all he claimed he was after when he lengthened the case.

Argueing that the 458 Win is not powerful enough for any African game ranks in the same league as argueing that the 270 Win is not enough for Mule Deer

From what I've been reading, Mule Deer likes the .270 Win.

My 458 Lott was at its best with 450 TSX bullets. It was incredibly powerful and very precise. One of the best friends I have in RSA has a 458 win with a 24" barrel. His 450 TSX loads and mine were within 100fps of each other. His were not maxed loads and mine were somewhat below max.

My lot was shooting them at 2250, he was shooting them at 2150+-. He felt he could push the limits and get close to 2200fps, but since he had never recovered a single bullet why should he? His hunting included every species of Big five plus hippo and croc.

I had recovered a few TSX but not a single one was complete, all had most or all of the petals missing. I think the TSX 450's were pushing the limits with 2000-2100fps impacts.

One thing is for sure, you could shoot a 450 TSX well below the famed 2050fps level and exceed any performance that the original design was capable of. Shoot it just 150fps more and it is amazing. Mike Lagrange who has likely killed more elephants then anyone alive on this earth today, well in excess of 6000 prefers the 458 Win mag to any other cartridge he has used.

I do not think that the 458 win mag was always this good. This was after all the reason for the 458 Lott. But with the powders and the amazing bullets, I would not feel handicapped using a 458win mag if I could not use my 458Lott.

Truth is, even the 375HH with 300TSX is capable of amazing feats of crumple power, and allows an very fast and accurate second shots to boot!

I apologize for hi-jacking the thread. But do you have any experience with the 250 gr TSX in .375? I was thinking about using it on eland with my 20" barreled .375 Sako Mannlicher.

My loaner rifle is a 30/06 using 165TSX, we have never lost an eland yet with that combination.

The 250 would likely be as good as the 270 for lethal performance on plains game I opt for the 270's because they are one hole accurate, and shoot a looooong way with accuracy as well.

I have shot the 250's quite a bit, but the difference in trajectory, recoil, accuracy, etc was not much different. So why not use the heavier ones to create greater penetration and to help them stay in one piece. I never had a problem with the 250's but rather make some assumptions that the higher velocity would break off the petals on close range impacts.

I also like the idea of a one bullet selection for everything from Cape Buffalo to impala.

Seeing as we're just having a friendly campfire banter ... here's a question for any to respond to.

You, your rifle and ammunition have been separated on the way to a buffalo/elephant hunt. But its okay as the PH has some left over ammunition from other clients.

Yes ... the ammunition is a few years old, but its factory. It's been stored as per what anyone would do, and sometimes it's been carried by other hunters in the same boat as you.

Now ... does it make a difference whether the ammunition your offered is 458WinMag or 458Lott?
Cheers...
Con

Con,

I have been there with 458wm solid ammo, borrowing enough odd sort cartridges to put some spares in my belt on the last leg of an extended elephant hunting trip. Some of the spares were Federal Trophy Bonded Sledghammers. Good thing that my rifle was a 458wm, because the choice was 458wm ammo or nothing. No other ammo was availble that was elephant legal or that anyone ought to be nuts enough to use. There was some 30-06 ammo in camp...

Ray,

You long ago missed the train on 458wm developments, from modern powders, modern velocity, modern bullets... 480gr Woodleigh solids have been periodically made with the 458wm cannelure for at least a decade. You could always special order them.

Now, do they make a difference? No, not imo. There is no notable velocity difference between the 480's and 500's. To push the 480's far enough beyond tried and true 500 performance would require lots of research trying lots of powders and a pressure gun.

But for Con, who has a suitable powder but not the better powder for the 500's, it makes sense to look into the 480s's.

The same hair split going from 500 to 480 is split going to 450's, eh? But going from 500's to 450's there is a notable leap in velocity, even when they are seated over 500 loads, let alone a proper load the pushes them.

Mike Brady made the NF .458" bullets 450grs for a reason!

Welcome to the 21st century.

458Win,

The solids were always 500grs.

JPK

Allow me to reply:

1. Peas in a pod you say? OK then why not have two peas in that pod instead of one? I don't think ammo shortage would be a problem but with the Lott one would have the choice of two instead of one.

2. Magazine length? Not a problem with this action but a valid point that should be considered before spending $75.00.

3. Might well be a problem, I'll get back to you on that. But remember I still have that .458Wn in my back pocket.

4. Haven't loaded any so can't say, however I don't contemplate loading more than a few dozen rounds so if it takes a little more time and effort I don't really care. I can assure you that I will take time and effort to load those puppies.

5. Accuracy? How accurate does this type of rifle have to be? This isn't my 7mm expected to hit elk at 450 yards. And I blew this out to Lott because I intend to use it as such. I'll go to the Wn only in an emergency.

6. You got me there.

You guys are so easy! Hell I'd hunt cape buffalo, elephant or Brown Bear with a 30-06. I'm not caliber anal, just a fun loving young man. But I hate the 45-70!

I'm asking about the 250 TSX because my .375 has a 20" barrel. Consequently, I expect to get 2600 to 2700 fps from the 250's. So, my thinking was that the 250's in this rifle should be much like a "normal" cup and core 270 in terms of BC while it should perform in a similar manner as a 270 TSX.

Given your experiences with the .30-06 loaner, it sounds like either bullet should work OK so long as I do my part. For the price of an eland, I'll buy a box of each and decide what shoots best in this rifle.

Ray,

"Amazing how protective folks can be over a gun they spent their hard earned bucks over! even a .458!"

Paid for? I got mine for free.

"All loads mentioned have over 100% load density, does that not mean anything to you fans of the caliber?"

I have fired more than 300,000 rounds in NRA High Power competition, in calibers 30-06, .300 H&H, .308, .223, 6XC, and a few others. This is about 299,500 more than even a dedicated .458 Lott hunter fires in a lifetime. And yes, loads over 100% load density do not mean a thing!

480 grains? At the time I worked up my loads, 480s were not available from North Fork, Barnes, or Hornady.

"It should have had a 3" case to start with and none of this conversation would have taken place time and time again over the years."

No, instead they would have shortened the case by 0.5" later, called it the .458 WSM, paid for a trip for Craig Boddington to shoot an elephant with it, and begun a marketing program about shorter bolt throw, lighter weight rifles, less recoil, more accuracy, and no change in ballistics etc. It's all about the marketing. You ain't gonna sell much, after all, by proclaiming..."new, .30 caliber rifle shooting the same bullet weights and velocities as it did in 1906."

"I clearly stated it will kill anything with a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS, I just don't think it is a good deal with 500 gr. bullets at 2200 or more claimed velocity and its proven that to many."

Why? Can you find a SINGLE INSTANCE of a powder invented since 1980, say, producing that velocity with a 500 grain bullet, which failed due to clumping, hot conditions, or failure to propitiate the tooth fairy?