For those of you that use this cartridge (or another one of the .458 dia. rounds) what bullet do you use when hunting DG? How does the Barnes TSX perform in this round?

Wellll that one can stir the sences of the masses!

I have used the .458 Win with rather warm handloads and it works well enough..I have used Woodleighs softs and solids as I used it early on with only handloads as factory stuff sucked bit time at 1800 FPS at one point.. Hot loaded it worked well and killed well, and gave some folks problems, but I personally never had a problem with it..I have not used it on elephant and I won't. I have observed it used with 400 and 450 gr. bullets and been told by the users this is the way to go, but I have to tell you I was not all that impressed with the lighter bullets on Hippo, buffalo and elephant. I would still opt for a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS over the lighter faster bullets. If I were obliged to use a .458 once again then it would be with a 500 gr. flat nose solid at 2000 FPS and I wouldn't be concerned.

IMO, and only speaking for myself, if I am going to go to a 45 caliber then it will be the .458 Lott and loaded "down" to an honest 2250 FPS with very low pressure. The conversion is inexpensive and is the most intelligent route to take with a .458 Win., a cartridge that was poorly designed in the first place, it just does not hold enough powder to suit me and to get the velocity I want unless I load it at 100 to 105 % load density, and I don't really like doing that because in many reported cases compaction became the culprit..

The cartridge has lived under a shadow since its birth that came about when the short magnum craze began with the .338, 264, 300 Win Mag, and the .468 and that was the only reason they didn't do it in a 3 inch version, an even better option than the Lott btw, and quite popular these days in Africa it seems. Where there is smoke there is fire makes since to me adn that certainly applies to the .458 Win.

The belief that modern powders have changed all this is not apparant to me or anyone with a rational approach to the subject..The latest is the 458 Enhanced stuff is sticking the bolts again according to an article I read in one of the gun mags. Not surprising because you cannot get 10 pounds of s--t in a 5 pound bag and therein lies the problem with the .458 Win.

I know this usually stirs some folks up pretty badly and so be it, nothing I can do to change my opine, but I will respect their opinnion, and if they are satisfied, then that's a good thing for them, its just not my cup of tea. All I can suggest to them is to not be blindsided by the fact that they own one and don't want to approach the issue with and open mind and that seems to be apparant in many cases, but again thats their choice.

My last PH, who has spent more years in the field in Africa by far than any non-PH on this or any other forum, loads 74 grains of AA2230 behind a 500 grain A Frame and also a 500 Hornady (older) solid and has hunted everything in Africa for many years with this caliber and doesn't see the need for anything else.

So I therefore will do the same thing, and press on, paying little attention to those with considerably less experience.

I load 72.5grs of AA 2230 under 500gr Woodleigh solids. This load produced 2145fps in my rifle and performance on elephant and buff is more than sufficient, penetration more than sufficient.

My Woodleigh 500gr soft point load requires a bit more powder for the same POI.

I also load 450gr North Fork flat nose solids at 2220fps, using AA 2230. Can't recall the load off hand. Penetration is phenominal - too much for buff really.

I believe that steel jacket solids are best for penetrating bone. Since the first shot on elephants is going to be a brain shot, or at least an attempt, I load the Woodleighs for that shot and the North Forks for subsequent shots since the second and subsequent shots are going to either be insurance shots, in the case of a successful brain shot, or shots intended for the heart/lungs, and possible at crappy angles, where penetration is at a premium.

For lead core softs and solids, I think 500grs is the way to go, but for copper or brass monos, 450grs is the way to go to keep length down and to keep powder capacity up. The 458wm does not enjoy an abundance of case capacity, but enough, if you use your peanut.

AA 2230 is tops for 500's, it is great for 450's too, but H 4895 is also great for 450's.

JPK

Barnes 450gr flatnose banded solids work well in both the Lott and the Winny 458 rounds, but with the Lott you can use the 500's and get still good velocity and all the penetration you could ever need. Great article on this in this months RIFLE magazine.

Very popular cartridge among PH's in Zim, but Lott is favored.

I had both Lotts and 458 win. mags and both will do a good job with what is available today in terms of bullets and powders.

I recently bought a M70 Safari Express in 458 win. mag. thought about converting it to a Lott but after doing a bit of research I decided against the coversion. The avaiability of powders and bullets, today, in my opinion make the conversion from 458 win. mag. to Lott less appealing. Take a look at most reloading manuals or information from the powder manufacturers and you will see that the Lott is 50-80 fps better than the win. mag.

Anyway, I sold off the NIB M70 and found a beautiful 98+ conidition Browning Safari 458 win. mag. made in 1965 on an FN long extractor action...now we have a rifle and there is no way I am going to convert this puppy to a Lott.

JPK, I am going to try AA2230 and H335 and possibly a couple others and settle on a load with North Forks, Barnes and Hornadys....should be good to go for just about anything!

thanks men. for several years i have read in the gun rags that the 458 win was "outdated" and of minimal use. it is good to learn (from people who know) that the 458 win is still not only viable, but preferred by some. thanks again.

The gun rags that claim the .458 Winchester is obsolete are all hooey. With respects to atkinson, his opinion expressed above is incorrect, in my experience. I don't know anything about "articles" claiming that modern powders cause bolt extraction problems in the .458. I go by my own expreiences.

What I do know is that the load which JPK posted above, with AA2230, will drive a 500 grain solid at 2200 fps in my 22" barreled Model 70. There are no pressure problems with this load. I prefer to use the same powder and load with 450 grain bullets because (a) Barnes 450 grain TSXs and North Fork flat-point solids shoot to the same point of aim and (b) recoil is noticeably less. The flat point 450 solid, due to its shape, will penetrate at least as deeply as a rond nosed 500 grain solid. If you search you can find articles on this.

I recently completed a series of tests using various powders. In my opinion, AA2230 is better than H335 because it takes 2 grains less powder to reach a velocity of 2200. AA2230 is better than H4895 for the same reason, except it takes 3 grains less powder. With the .458 you usually run out of case capacity before running into pressure problems. Incidentally, AA2230 is less bulky than H4895.

I also found that H4198 is ideal for 350 grain TSXs, better than several other powders. I can reach 2750 fps without any pressure problems noticed. The cases practically fall out of the rifle. I can back this off 3 grains, incidentally, and still reach 2650. I intend to use this load for lion if I get the chance. Striking energy is a shade under 5500 foot pounds, sort of a .375 H&H on steroids.

So here's what I think are good loads.

Barnes 450 grain TSXs with AA2230 at 2250 fps

North Fork 450 grain flat paint solids with AA2230 at 2250

Barnes 350 grain TSXs with H4198 at 2650

Oh. As far as worrying about compaction or similar problems in the "hot African sun," I think it is equally productive worrying about the tooth fairy, unless you're shooting old Winchester factory loads.

Another interesting fact: .458s have a lot of freebore, for some reason. The CZ550 in this caliber has a longer magazine than other .458s. This means you have in effect the same case capacity as the .458 Lott. Just load TSXs or any multi-grooved monolithic solid with the crimp in a groove further toward the rear of the bullet.

I can see no reason to rechamber a Winchester to a Lott or vice versa.

Indy,
Have you achieved 2200fps (or close) using H4895 with a 500gr? I'm getting interested in buying/building another 458WinMag but have never seen anything published where H4895 (we call it AR2206H) has achieved those speeds.

In the past I was getting 2070fps from a 22" barrel with 480gr Woodleigh using H4895's predecessor ... AR2206.
Cheers...
Con

The first thing I notice is that some have figured out the 458 Win. must be shot with 450 gr. bullets to work! hmmm, is that not in itself a confession? but its a smart move in the right direction regretably..

I would also like for some of you who get these declared velocities with the .458 to step up to the plate and tell me what the load density is on your loads, did you chronograph them are accept some written figure. Do you know the pressure or are you accepting that also on someone elses say so..I have chronographed a lot of 458 Win. loads, and that is why I don't shoot it anymore. If you do not know the load density then I suggest that you research that. LD is where the .458 got the bad reputation, not because it failed in killing power..It kills fine..It clumps powder and compaction has historically caused all these problems and is doing it again with the enhanced loads according to some African magazines. A lot of well documented evidence started all this flame on the .458.

Now if you want to hunt with a .458 that's fine and I know it will kill a big animal, but don't try and confuse me with me with unsubstanciated facts..it won't work...I'll just stick with the Lott and if I want a slower bullet I will load it down..you can load yours .458 UP to hot pressure...

What is even more confusing to me is why anyone would not spend $100.00 bucks to punch one out to a lott..Surly anyone that can afford to hunt Africa can afford such a conversion..

I am only discussing the cartridge, not interested in a fight, and willing to listen to anyones opine, and just stateing my case, which I firmly believe to be fact. I won't give but I will listen.

Would I hunt with a .458, yes I would and with confidence, but it would be with a 500 gr. bullet in a 26 inch barrel at 2000 FPS. I would be confident to use it as what it is and believe it capable of doing the job at such..I also know that thier are better options and the .458 Lott is one of them.

My choice is the 416 or 404 with a 400 gr. bullet at 2450 FPS and a 40 caliber give you the SD you need. A 400 gr. 458 is a poor penetrator as it has little SD..

A 450 grain flat point solid will out penetrate a 500 grain round nose solid, making SD a moot point.

There are more variables than just SD, not that simple

Con,

I have done very little shooting with 500 grain bullets and H4895, since I found AA2230 a better choice. Comparing the two, it takes more grains of powder to get any desired velocity with H4895 and H4895 is less dense. AA2230 works well with 500 grain bullets however, and I have chronographed Barnes banded solids at just over 2200 with AA2230.

Ray,

All the .458 velocities I have posted on the Internet were obtained using a Shooting Chrony "B" chronograph.

I don't know the load density. Most of the loads I use are "slightly" compressed. Curiously, if you check the Barnes reloading manual, you will find that most of the Lott loads, which only best the Winchester by about 50 fps, are also compressed!!!

I have never measured pressure. However, I have been handloading various calibers since 1961 and think I can recognize excess. I don't get "excess" with my loads. I stop adding more powder not because of pressures, but because I don't need any more velocity.

"The first thing I notice is that some have figured out the 458 Win. must be shot with 450 gr. bullets to work!"

Whoever said this, it certainly wasn't me. 500 grain bullets work just fine. I use 450 grain solids because (a) they kick noticeably less and (b) flat point ones penetrate deeper than Woodleigh-shaped 500 grain bullets. In short, they're better for killing elephant and buffalo. For what it's worth, with the same load of powder, I got 50 fps more velocity with 450s, so I left it at that. Less recoil equates to being able to shoot more accurately in the field.

Clumping: Within reason, I've never found that load densities higher than 1.00 caused clumping or compacting, so I chalk this up to either an old wives' tale or a bad quality control problem with Winchester 748 (a powder I've never used) 50 years ago. I used to load all my long range ammo for Camp Perry with compressed charges and never had a velocity variation sufficient to make noticeable elevation changes at 1000 yards. Now if someone carries them around in sweat-soaked leather cartridge belts and gets them all crudded up with verdigris, that might be another situation. When I hunt Africa, the weather is no warmer and a good bit dryer than Camp Perry, Ohio, during the National Matches and I usually load my ammo a month or two before the trip.

Incidentally I've had 30-06 ammo go bad with velocity variations and hang fires (46 grains of IMR4895 powder with about 50% load density) after 20 years or so, and also had some from the 1960s work perfectly fine. Why? Who knows.

Now why wouldn't I just spend the $100.00 and convert to a Lott? Simple. It confers no discernable advantage I can see. The velocity increase is within the barrel to barrel variation of a .458 and wouldn't make any difference to the buffalo anyway. Further, it might mess up the feeding. Finally, though I have never short-stroked a bolt rifle, the Winchester has an obvious advantage in this regard.

I don't know why you talk about 2000 fps with a 26" barrel and 500 grain bullets. You certainly don't need a 26" barrel to get that velocity. Also, a lot of people think that 2000 fps is not adequate for dangerous game, I have read. I've never tried it.

Just an observation:
The 458WinMag has had its controversies and they are on the public record. Initially it was a 2150fps cartridge and that was backed off to 2040fps ... why? But is 2040fps at the muzzle adequate ... I'm sure it is in 99.9% of circumstances.

The use of AA2230 is fine as long as your in a country where its available! So that kind of seems to make the 458WinMag a one powder cartridge.

Is the 458Lott loaded by the factories to its potential? I doubt it because there are old guns about ... just like the 35Whelen is loaded close to 50-100fps below its potential.

End of the day though, it (458WinMag) is a good cartridge and if you can get 2100fps from a 500gr or 480gr there's a tonne of good work you can do with it! The Lott's 2300fps may be deemed necessary by some, but it comes in a heavier package to control the recoil! A 9lb 458WinMag with a 480gr at 2070fps is just a dream to carry and use however. Mind you ... a 9lb 416Taylor with a 400gr at 2300fps is perhaps a better all-rounder again.
Cheers...
Con

With my limited experience with large bores and loading for them, I can only pass along my limited experiences with this cartridge, however, In my CZ .458 WM I have used H4895 behind the Barnes TSX 450 grn. bullet. Two loads which are resulting in outstanding accuracy for me are 72 grn. of said powder giving me 2225 over a Pro Chono chronograph, and 73 grns. of the same powder/bullet moving it at 2280 fps. Recoil is manageable with MOA accuracy. With the long magazine, and long throat in this rifle I am able to seat the bullet out to typical Lott OAL, and am experiencing slight, maybe 101-102% case capacity. I have fired these loads at temps well over 100 degrees, and as low as 10 degrees with no noticable change in performance or POI shift.

I too had considered reaming it out to the Lott, but after experiencing this level of performance, I see no need for it. With proper modern bullets, and appropriate powders, I believe
the original concerns over the .458 performance issues are no longer issues at all. If a monometal bullet traveling at 2280 fps. will not do the job at hand, chances are I don't need to be pursuing it.

If someone could explain to me what advantage a Lott moving this bullet at 75-100 fps. faster would achieve that my loads are not, I would be interested to listen to your reasoning.

With best regards, George

As a P.S. to the last sentence in you last post here on page one Ray, in regard to a 400 grn. bullet in the.458, check with your partner Phil/458Win. who has previously stated that after some exptensive testing through his ..458 "Old Ugly, he found that the now discontinued 400 grn. Barnes demonstrated the "best penetration" of any .458 projectile he had ever tested.

So the 458 win wont work with a 500 @ 2200?

FWIW, my 24" Mark X with 500 grain Barnes solids and 72 grains of AA2230 gives me averages in the 2200's @ 101% density.

The Lott, when I owned it, would best it by 75 fps with 82 grains @ 105% density.

Finn Aagaard also published his report on the 400 Barnes and he too found that it penetrated as well as any 500 soft nosed bullets. Like me he also had no trouble getting an honest 2000fps+ with 500 gr bullets and near 2400fps with 400 gr bullets.
As he so elequantly put it " a 500 gr .458 bullet at an honest 2000fps puts a bloody big hole in anything it hits"

Yes the compressed load used by the factories of 50 years ago eventually proved to give erratic performance as they aged. So do Kynoch loads with the famed Nitro rounds. Folks who insist on hanging onto this outdated dogma to make their new rounds look better need to realize we are now in the 21st century.

I ask from complete ignorance. Would you notice the difference between 50 gr of bullet weight (450 vs. 500) so long as both are well constucted to do the job?

Not likely - but here on this forum you'll find folks who love to argue esoteric ballistic masturbation questions like that.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I do love Alaska. My most challenging hunts have been from there. From my very little experience, it is at the same time the most hospitable and inhospitable place I've ever been.

Ray,

If only 500gr .458" bullets are suitable for DG, how in the hell did the 450NE's, shooting a mere 480grs at real world velocities of 2050fps to 2100fps (and rarely actually reaching 2150fps) ever acheive the success and the attendant fame that they did, eh?

BTW, even in your favorite Lott, if you use mone bullets you are better off with 450's because of the excessive length of the 500's, unless you rifle has faster than typical twist.

But you'd be even better of with 550gr Woodleighs at 2150fps, something the 458wm can't approach.

Con,

Probably the perfect set up for your 458wm is the Woodleigh 480 grainer with the 458wm cannelure. (For US shooters, now offered through Huntingtons, I have been told.) When I was messing around with H 4895 and 500gr Woodleigh solids, I was getting inconsistent velocities when I reached 2150fps or so. But, the H 4895 was excellent for 450 NF's and very consistent.

JPK

Just having acquired a .458Wn and just having converted it to .458Lott before even firing it I must say I do not understand the argument. For a lousy $75.00 I have both. Can anyone give me a good reason why I or anyone owning a .458WN should not have done the punch out? I now have two rifles for the cost of one. What the hell is wrong with that?

In all the .458's I have owned or reviewed, I fould the same results and Fin and Phil with that 400gn X bullet for penetration. Still have a few loaded up for my .460 which can toss them along at 2900fps though I prefer 2750fps as it is a bit easier to shoot.

It was also one of the most accurate bullets I ever shot in .458 Caliber. I sent a 5 shot group at .6 MOA to Barnes for their manual, though they have not published it as yet.

John

Wow. I should cut and paste that quote directly into the 257 wby vs 300 win argument in one of the threads above.

I can hardly wait for elk season next year, or to get back home (3 months and a wake up) and drop that on someone at the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation fund raiser during the annual 300 Wby vs 300 Win argument.

Thanks Phil!

Con,

Checking my data, I find I got about 50 fps more velocity using 450 grain bullets with the same weight of AA2230 as I got with H4895. If AA2230 is not available in Australia, I would try working up loads a grain at a time using H4895. As a "guesstimate," I would suspect you could get at least 2100 fps and maybe 2150 fps with H4895 and 500 grain bullets. You might even get more. I got 2200 with AA2230 and 500 grain bullets.

Here are several:

1. You don't have two rifles. The two cartridges are basically like peas in a pod. It's like having a .243 and a 6mm Remington. If you ever have a shortage of ammo in Africa, you will probably find .458wm easier to get anyway.

2. What about magazine length? You might have to lengthen the magazine for the cartridges to fit. If you don't, why not just save your $75.00 and use another groove on monolithic bullets? Have you ever measured the freebore on a .458wm? You'll probably run out of magazine length before you run out of chamber length.

3. What about feeding? You might have to rework the rails. Or you might not. .458 feeding can be touchy. For instance, flat point solids work fine in my M70 but jam up in my PH's M70.

4. In general, .458 Lott reloading is more touchy. Unless you shell out for an extra length press, it's kind of difficult to fit the case and the bullet in it. Longer cases are also more prone to collapse slightly if you use too much lube, have them a bit off center, etc.

5. Firing .458wms in a Lott chamber may not be very accurate due to all the freebore you are adding.

6. Do you know anyone who would buy a .300 Winchester magnum and have it rechambered to a .300 Weathereby before even firing it? I didn't think so.

Heck, I don't have to check with Phil, we been cuss'en and discussin this subject for years..:)

Everyone of you keeps coming back to 400 and 450 gr. bullets, don't deny it, just read your own emails above! The gun was supposed to shoot 500 gr. bullets!! it could not handle them obviously!! wake up America, smell the roses!!:)

Bear are softer than buffalo and problems with the 458 arise with elephants only as a rule, or that has been the history of the caliber and its long list of failures!

As to the 480 gr. vs. the 500 grs.? hey, ain't that splitt'en hairs? Besides in reality, the 480 just might be the best option of all, and nobodys trying it..Hmmmmm

You guys really have to reach to justify your .458s. You must understand it doesn't have to be that way, the 458 Lott is your salvation, your come to Jesus meeting, your life is at stake!:)

Amazing how protective folks can be over a gun they spent their hard earned bucks over! even a .458! but its OK, just not quite there IMO...

Like I said, the 458 is a killer, why do I keep getting questioned on that as I have never said it wasn't...I clearly stated it will kill anything with a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS, I just don't think it is a good deal with 500 gr. bullets at 2200 or more claimed velocity and its proven that to many., and I will always KNOW it was poorly designed in the first place to please the masses who were into the short magnum craze of the day. It should have had a 3" case to start with and none of this conversation would have taken place time and time again over the years...All loads mentioned have over 100% load density, does that not mean anything to you fans of the caliber? apparantly not, but its a consideration to me.

I don't necessarily disagree with some of you, and I certainly respect many of you who are valiantly protecting your child, but you really should punch it out a tad!!

Please don't hate me for disagreeing with you, I like all you guys most of the time!

For those who want to hang on to the past, it will be difficult to convince you that the 458 win. mag. is capable of producing 2150+/- fps with 500 grain bullets and will do so safely without heavily compressed loads. However, if you care to do some current research, go to most powder company web sites or pick-up a current reloading manual you may find out differently. Even better yet take some of that information and go out and choronograph a few loads...It may have been awhile sent you may have done so?

A few reason why not to go to the trouble of the coversion to Lott have been mentioned. Another good reason, if you have a pre-64 or other vintage rifle why screw with...makes no sense. I bought a 1965 Browning Safari in 458 win. mag. and I really like the feel of this rifle and the weight...there is no way I would convert this rifle to a Lott!

If I was going to purchase a new CZ550 and I had a choice between the Lott or win. mag, I would pick the Lott. The CZ is a large action rifle will handle the Lott just fine and it weighs close to 10 lbs.

It's all just a matter of preference and available choices but to make statements based upon the "past" and not taking into account today....well that does not make much sense to me.

I think both the Lott and the win. mag are capable of doing the job with today's bullets and powder choices. There are advantages to each......

Actually the original 458 Win was designed to fire 510 gr bullets and according to tests run for the NRA at the time of it's inception they actually did reach 2150fps with the 25 inch bbl of the 458 African. When WW decided to lop three inches off the barrel of the African model they also listed the velocity as 2040fps. Which it most certainly did and is the round that was hands down the favorite of African PH's for 50 years.
With today's powders it is easy to again acheive those velocities with 500 gr bullets. Unless the elephants and buffalo of today are tougher - or today's shooters can't hit as well - it is still adequate . I, and obviously a lot of highly expereinced African PH's, seem to think so. So did Jack Lott as 2150fps with a 500 grain bullet is all he claimed he was after when he lengthened the case.

Argueing that the 458 Win is not powerful enough for any African game ranks in the same league as argueing that the 270 Win is not enough for Mule Deer

From what I've been reading, Mule Deer likes the .270 Win.

My 458 Lott was at its best with 450 TSX bullets. It was incredibly powerful and very precise. One of the best friends I have in RSA has a 458 win with a 24" barrel. His 450 TSX loads and mine were within 100fps of each other. His were not maxed loads and mine were somewhat below max.

My lot was shooting them at 2250, he was shooting them at 2150+-. He felt he could push the limits and get close to 2200fps, but since he had never recovered a single bullet why should he? His hunting included every species of Big five plus hippo and croc.

I had recovered a few TSX but not a single one was complete, all had most or all of the petals missing. I think the TSX 450's were pushing the limits with 2000-2100fps impacts.

One thing is for sure, you could shoot a 450 TSX well below the famed 2050fps level and exceed any performance that the original design was capable of. Shoot it just 150fps more and it is amazing. Mike Lagrange who has likely killed more elephants then anyone alive on this earth today, well in excess of 6000 prefers the 458 Win mag to any other cartridge he has used.

I do not think that the 458 win mag was always this good. This was after all the reason for the 458 Lott. But with the powders and the amazing bullets, I would not feel handicapped using a 458win mag if I could not use my 458Lott.

Truth is, even the 375HH with 300TSX is capable of amazing feats of crumple power, and allows an very fast and accurate second shots to boot!

I apologize for hi-jacking the thread. But do you have any experience with the 250 gr TSX in .375? I was thinking about using it on eland with my 20" barreled .375 Sako Mannlicher.

My loaner rifle is a 30/06 using 165TSX, we have never lost an eland yet with that combination.

The 250 would likely be as good as the 270 for lethal performance on plains game I opt for the 270's because they are one hole accurate, and shoot a looooong way with accuracy as well.

I have shot the 250's quite a bit, but the difference in trajectory, recoil, accuracy, etc was not much different. So why not use the heavier ones to create greater penetration and to help them stay in one piece. I never had a problem with the 250's but rather make some assumptions that the higher velocity would break off the petals on close range impacts.

I also like the idea of a one bullet selection for everything from Cape Buffalo to impala.

Seeing as we're just having a friendly campfire banter ... here's a question for any to respond to.

You, your rifle and ammunition have been separated on the way to a buffalo/elephant hunt. But its okay as the PH has some left over ammunition from other clients.

Yes ... the ammunition is a few years old, but its factory. It's been stored as per what anyone would do, and sometimes it's been carried by other hunters in the same boat as you.

Now ... does it make a difference whether the ammunition your offered is 458WinMag or 458Lott?
Cheers...
Con

Con,

I have been there with 458wm solid ammo, borrowing enough odd sort cartridges to put some spares in my belt on the last leg of an extended elephant hunting trip. Some of the spares were Federal Trophy Bonded Sledghammers. Good thing that my rifle was a 458wm, because the choice was 458wm ammo or nothing. No other ammo was availble that was elephant legal or that anyone ought to be nuts enough to use. There was some 30-06 ammo in camp...

Ray,

You long ago missed the train on 458wm developments, from modern powders, modern velocity, modern bullets... 480gr Woodleigh solids have been periodically made with the 458wm cannelure for at least a decade. You could always special order them.

Now, do they make a difference? No, not imo. There is no notable velocity difference between the 480's and 500's. To push the 480's far enough beyond tried and true 500 performance would require lots of research trying lots of powders and a pressure gun.

But for Con, who has a suitable powder but not the better powder for the 500's, it makes sense to look into the 480s's.

The same hair split going from 500 to 480 is split going to 450's, eh? But going from 500's to 450's there is a notable leap in velocity, even when they are seated over 500 loads, let alone a proper load the pushes them.

Mike Brady made the NF .458" bullets 450grs for a reason!

Welcome to the 21st century.

458Win,

The solids were always 500grs.

JPK

Allow me to reply:

1. Peas in a pod you say? OK then why not have two peas in that pod instead of one? I don't think ammo shortage would be a problem but with the Lott one would have the choice of two instead of one.

2. Magazine length? Not a problem with this action but a valid point that should be considered before spending $75.00.

3. Might well be a problem, I'll get back to you on that. But remember I still have that .458Wn in my back pocket.

4. Haven't loaded any so can't say, however I don't contemplate loading more than a few dozen rounds so if it takes a little more time and effort I don't really care. I can assure you that I will take time and effort to load those puppies.

5. Accuracy? How accurate does this type of rifle have to be? This isn't my 7mm expected to hit elk at 450 yards. And I blew this out to Lott because I intend to use it as such. I'll go to the Wn only in an emergency.

6. You got me there.

You guys are so easy! Hell I'd hunt cape buffalo, elephant or Brown Bear with a 30-06. I'm not caliber anal, just a fun loving young man. But I hate the 45-70!

I'm asking about the 250 TSX because my .375 has a 20" barrel. Consequently, I expect to get 2600 to 2700 fps from the 250's. So, my thinking was that the 250's in this rifle should be much like a "normal" cup and core 270 in terms of BC while it should perform in a similar manner as a 270 TSX.

Given your experiences with the .30-06 loaner, it sounds like either bullet should work OK so long as I do my part. For the price of an eland, I'll buy a box of each and decide what shoots best in this rifle.

Ray,

"Amazing how protective folks can be over a gun they spent their hard earned bucks over! even a .458!"

Paid for? I got mine for free.

"All loads mentioned have over 100% load density, does that not mean anything to you fans of the caliber?"

I have fired more than 300,000 rounds in NRA High Power competition, in calibers 30-06, .300 H&H, .308, .223, 6XC, and a few others. This is about 299,500 more than even a dedicated .458 Lott hunter fires in a lifetime. And yes, loads over 100% load density do not mean a thing!

480 grains? At the time I worked up my loads, 480s were not available from North Fork, Barnes, or Hornady.

"It should have had a 3" case to start with and none of this conversation would have taken place time and time again over the years."

No, instead they would have shortened the case by 0.5" later, called it the .458 WSM, paid for a trip for Craig Boddington to shoot an elephant with it, and begun a marketing program about shorter bolt throw, lighter weight rifles, less recoil, more accuracy, and no change in ballistics etc. It's all about the marketing. You ain't gonna sell much, after all, by proclaiming..."new, .30 caliber rifle shooting the same bullet weights and velocities as it did in 1906."

"I clearly stated it will kill anything with a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS, I just don't think it is a good deal with 500 gr. bullets at 2200 or more claimed velocity and its proven that to many."

Why? Can you find a SINGLE INSTANCE of a powder invented since 1980, say, producing that velocity with a 500 grain bullet, which failed due to clumping, hot conditions, or failure to propitiate the tooth fairy?

Actually, I purchased my CZ in .458WM because that's what I wanted. The dealer had both (.458 Lott and .458WM).

What I have found in these types of discussions about the .458 WM vs .458 Lott, is that few are listening anyway. On AR, I gave about 10 reasons for choosing the .458WM over the Lott, and pointed out that I have a Lott anyway in my Win Mag with the long box and freebore, and have explained all that here and on AR (as well as my manual) but people (like Ray) just keep on talking as though nothing was posted to correct/change their ATTITUDE! Because that's what it is.... an ATTITUDE!

Ray is vociferous about people being stupid enough to buy a .458WM when they could have a Lott for $75 more, and defend their baby! But he never checks a reloading manual which shows 50 to 75 fps difference, and in Barnes manual #4, the Lott has as many, or more, compressed loads (with the same app. PSI) as the Win Mag!

I got mine in Win Mag because that's what I wanted: ammo and brass is MUCH cheaper, and more available, here in Ontario than for the Lott. Need I go on?

I'm convinced it's a waste of my time.

BTW, Ray, I'm your age, so I can talk to you like a brother and not a son...


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

There is nothing wrong with the Lott but it is not the super round it's fans claim. A lot of folks confuse size with performance but exerience has a way of dispelling that myth.

Those claiming that a 458 is ineffective with a 500 grain bullet and then claiming that the 458 Lott is, simply need to be pittied as they have taken leave of the sense's

IIRC there is quite a difference in the freebore of WM's and Lotts depending on whether SAAMI or CIP. WinMags (SAAMI and CIP) have a very long funnel shaped throat that can't be good for accuracy with shorter bullets. The SAAMI Lott throat is tighter and much shorter. If buying a new rifle, I would go for the shorter throat.

Found the thread over on AR-
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/9201027511?r=9201027511#9201027511

One of the reasons I want to do the Win Mag is to do some cast bullet loads (ought to be dynamite on elk in the timber). I could do cast loads in the Lott but for that purpose the Win appeals to me more. And you know if I had the Win & went to Africa it would have to go with me. Hence asking about loads for Africa.

I think I'm going back to the 308 vs 30-06 vs 270 discussion......

Wouldn't the shorter throat of the SAAMI Lott give better accuracy with cast bullets than the longer throat of the WM?

Gentlemen,
For those that have a problem with the tried and proven .458 Winchester, there is another option not included in the discussion. It is called the .460 Weatherby MAgnum which can be handloaded with the bullet of your dreams to your own recoil tolerance.

The words "develops excess pressure in tropical climates" need never be spoken again. It is an obsolete and conquored issue.
JW

Of nine handloads for my CZ550 in .458WM, the average accuracy is MOA. One of those 9 is a hardcast 465gr at 2260 fps and it shoots into 1.37". Most of the monos and jacketed shoot between 3/4" and 1". That includes the 350 Hornady, 405 Remington, 450 -X and 500 Hornady RNSP. My favorite is the 350 TSX which shoots MOA at 2750 fps.

The 350 Hornady is a reduced load at 2112 fps and there is also a reduced load for the 405 Rem at just over 2000. Another load for the 405 Rem leaves at 2400 fps. It goes 1 1/4 MOA. The 450-X is 3/4" at 100 yds.

My CZ has a magnum-length box and app. 3/4" freebore.

I can only speak of my rifle, and accuracy isn't a problem whether lobbing 350s at .450 Marlin speeds or 500s at Lott velocity.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I think both Indy and JPK have given the loads they've used, and have given the results they were looking for from good charges of AA2230 behind 450 TSX's, North Forks and Barnes Banded as well as 500 Woodleighs.

I've only been to Africa once and never used a .458 of any persuasion while there. Used my son's 12-gauge with Brennekes. My CZ is used in North American hunting (moose and black bear)and as a test platform to provide material for my manual and blog. Using 450s and 500s over suitable doses of H335, It does not lack in ballistics suitable for the largest and meanest that Africa has to offer.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Yep, there's the 460, then there's the rest...jorge

I didn't know that "excess pressure in tropical climates" ever did need to be spoken.

This isn't 1950 any more. It gets no hotter in Africa during the times when most elephant are taken than it does in Ohio or Maryland in August. In fact, it probably gets a good deal hotter in the US Southwest during deer season. Yet nobody worries about excessive pressures because we aren't shooting Cordite!

Read CZ550's post. The Barnes manual shows as many "excess pressure" loads for the Lott as for the .458 WM and all for a velocity difference that is irrelevant.

According to Kevin Robertson, in his book, "The Perfect Shot," the .460 actually penetrates less with solids than the "lesser" .458s because the higher velocity causes more yawing. Also the rifles built for it usually are heavier and there are only two shots in the magazine. Many have muzzle breaks but who want to substitute ear damage for bruised shoulders?

Well will all due deference to Kevin Roberton (and who am I to dare say that!)I've read his books and theories and I don't agree with him. That older "slower is better" theory might have been true with traditional cup and core bullets and old fashioned solids, but with today's monometal solids, the 460 outpenetrates them all. I can't recall the testing protocol, but the 460 was the penetration king. jorge

jorge,
Interesting observation. The developer of the new Woodleigh monolithics passed them onto a buffalo hunter who tested them on Asiatic buffalo. The 378Wby in his opinion just stepped up into a new league.
Cheers...
Con

That has been the most vicious recoiling rifle I have ever shot in my life.

Incidentally, the owner of the local gunshop here in town just killed an emormous Brown bear with a 378 (braked, puzzy!)and a 300gr TSX. Madea bad shot too, angling forward through the guts and came out in the chest area. Bear was estimated at 24yrs old. Dropped him and the guide says he's never seen so much damage inside. With today super premiums give me as much WEIGHT AND SPEED as I can handle. jorge

Not a bad shot with a proper bullet, like a TSX

"That has been the most vicious recoiling rifle I have ever shot in my life."

Interesting isn't it? The .375 H&H is often described as having surprisingly mild recoil, but bump the powder charge & velocity up with the big .378 case and suddenly those same bullets are producing a lot more Ouch on the shooter... All that changed was powder charge & velocity!

Recoil can be tamed dramatically by changing stock design and/or weight and by adding such things as mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestors or even those nasty muzzle brakes...... I hunted with a guy some years ago who shot his 458 Lott (with Lott rounds) off of sticks and he didn't even bother putting his left hand on the rifle at all..... Turned out he had 3 mercury tubes in it.

My .500 (now) has one in it and also a good stock design and felt recoil isn't much more than a .375 H&H. Before I made the addition, it damn nearly tore me in two.

So the next time you reluctantly start to think about selling a loved rifle because of the recoil, maybe consider a change of stock or the addition of a mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestor or two.

Please allow me to clear up a few misquotes to my supposedly stated opinnions and please do not put words in my mouth...First of all I have never called anyone stupid, I may on a face to face situation call someone a dirty SOB but never stupid or ignorant, nor will I ever be rude unless attacked outright. I just don't do that..I supose some things I say are abrasive to those with a thin skin, and if so I apoligize profoundly.

Anything I say to you on these threads I would say to your face and listen to your reply. I enjoy discussing guns and balistics and I enjoy stating my opinnion and listening to yours and neither of us is required to change our minds unless we want to. It is really not that important, at least not to me.

What I will do is read each post carefully and take it into consideration what each person has to say, but I do not have to agree with it, I will state my opinnion just like those that disagree with me do..Lets keep it that way, and not be like some of the other blogs..

I am willing and ready to discuss any caliber but I will not change my mind unless I think you have come up with a better alternative and no one has yet convienced me the 458 Win. is a better choice than the 458 Lott for me..

I hold no ill will to those that prefer prefer the .458 Win. and I have stated it is a FINE CALIBER THAT KILLS WELL, so please don't acccuse me of that anymore..I have hunted with it quit a bit and yes it worked, as do several calibers that I am not particularly fond off and that describes the .458 win in my opinnion, I am not particularly fond of it.

I do believe in order to get the quoted balistics you have to go beyond 100% load density and you can if you wish, but I will not do that with a DG caliber. Check out the Swift manual for one on load density which is nothing more than a recipe for compaction and compaction is what has caused the black history of the .458 and if it was a 3" case, then you must agree that we would not be haveing this conversation. HMMMMM

I do believe the 458 should have been a 3" case and I don't see anything wrong with that idea.

I know that I can get 2300 to 2350 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet without compaction in the Lott, so its a better killer, am I not correct on this, it seems pretty basic to me.

I just cannot for the life of me understand why I am disagreed with this by some, and the reasoning given does not make since to me, thus my belief that folks that own a caliber tend to refuse it has short comings. Mostly I have seen this in the 45-70 and the .458 Win. Also in horses.:)

Sometimes from some folks I get the idea that they think I can be baffaled with BS. By the same token I take exception on the subject with folks that I have all the respect in the world for as to their opinnion and many of them post right here, but again am I required to agree, not likely pilgrim!

Give me a Lott any day.:)

Let me state once and for all, I have a world of respect for almost all you children on 24 hr. your the best out there.

Interesting.
Nice to see the 378 get a bit of respect for a change.

I have always though that the 378 with a 270gr TSX would make a heck of a plains game gun-though I don't suppose I will ever get the chance to try.
A guy can dream, though.

Ray,

I hate to rain on your parade but...

1. The fastest .458 Lott load listed by Barnes goes 2264 fps.

2. Barnes says that load has 105% load density.

Both 500 grain flat point solids.

Can you quote us some ACTUAL EXAMPLES of COMPACTED LOTT LOADS causing problems?

I didn't think so.

By the way...

The fastest .458WM load they list goes 2194 fps at 105% load density. Why so slow? Because they have listings only for some very oddball powders for the .458. No "normal" .458 powders like AA2230, H335, H4895 are shown.

But...that being the case, if there's some reason to prefer the Lott, it certainly has nothing to do with "compaction" or 2350 fps.

Can you quote us some ACTUAL EXAMPLES of COMPACTED WM LOADS causing problems?

I didn't think so.

By the way #2: Their Lott load uses 13 grains more powder than my 450 or 500 grain WM loads. This means that the Lott adds 18% recoil velocity (velocity, not energy) to my 450 grain North Fork solid load, without gaining anything in penetration. Guess who is going to shoot more accurately in the field?

Indy,

My man, you ask a question of me then you answer it, which is fine except you answered it wrong..

I will quote you some loads and I will also advise you that its very easy to get 2300 to 2350 FPS with the 458 Lott, apparantly your education with the Lott is limited somewhat! ..

I will also quote you those loads that are over Load Density or compacted if you will, and suggest that you read Rifle Magazine NO. 135, ".458 Lott" by G. Sitton, May-June 1991 if you can locate a copy. It is a revelation to some.

The only powder that I use is IMR-4320 and 84 grs. was my standard load and also the standard load for Jack Lott and Dave Miller and G. Sitton..Muzzle velocity will be from 2300 to 2350 depending on barrel length..In my 26 inch barreled guns I actually went up to 89 grs. and that was hot at 2501 FPS and primers were flat and I got an extractor mark, so I backed way off to the recommended 84 grs and mild pressure as suggested by Lott and the boys. Some use about .500 freebore with the Lott, but I have tried it both ways and unless you intend to really soup it up beyond 2300 then its not necessary and inasmuch as 2300 is about all the recoil I can stand, I settled on either 83 or 84 grs. depending on which gun...If I were building a Custom Lott then I would probably use .500 freebore..

I will quote you now some figures as per your request: 24" barrel
74.5 grs of H335 = 110% Load Density, 2110 FPS
71.0 grs. of H4895 = 104% Load Density 2112 FPS
73.0 grs. of RL-15 = 107% Load Density 2102 FPS
69.0 grs. of IMR-3031 = 101% Load Density at 2061 FPS
72.0 grs. of IMR-4895 = 106% load Density at 2114 FPS

This, my man, IS compaction as far as I am concerned, and this is why the .458 has been under the gun since its conception. Where there is smoke, there is fire..how else could all this come about? Its rep was challanged in Africa from problems that existed back when and still do if you push the string with the .458 Win. The recently dropped the enhanced .458 Ammo for that very reason, but that is the only cartridge they had to drop, go figure.


61.o grs. of RL-7 = 90% Load Density at 2037 FPS in a 24 inch barrel and this is the load and powder I have used to hunt with and it killed fine. but its not a that fast. Like I said the .458 kills good, it works, but its not efficient enough to suit me personally and I like a bit more velocity..

I hope I have answered your questions to satisfy you, but for some reason I doubt that my post is going to have much effect on you and those who honorably stand behind old Betsy!

I also realize that attacking the .458 or 45-70 is akin to incest with some, and for that reason I keep my horse tied out back for a quick get away, Adios, I'm outa here! yeehaw!









5

Obtaining 2300 fps out of a Lott is doable (but tough) so is obtaining 2100 plus out of a 458 Win Mag. Ostensibly the Lott gives you a 200fps difference. I don't care for either one personally, straight cartidges present a tougher feeding problem than the 450 Dakota (or Weatherby for that matter) and the 450 Dakota outperforms them both. For double rifles, I prefer straight rimmed cartridges than any of the three mentioned, but the bottom line is any of them are PLENTY for anything that needs putiing down in a hurry. jorge

+1....

jorgeI;

I like the idea of a 460 WBY; I've written so in my blogs. What for? I don't have a clue! But, if I were to think it necessary... for whatever reason... to go more than the 458WM, it WOULD NOT BE THE LOTT! Despite Ray's comments, which are sadly outdated, even with IMR4320, which is NOT the same as it was in his day, the LOTT is NOT 200 fps more than the .458WM with the same 500 Banded Solid by Barnes. Neither is the 500 Hornady... it goes 50fps more.

I've written before... and will mention it once again... In my CZ550 458WM, I can EASILY load it like a LOTT, because of the magazine box which allows 3.8" COL, and the freebore which allows that COL. That's .2" MORE COL than the Lott! So, there's no way the Lott with equal barrel length can give 200 fps more MV than MY CZ!!!

The most I've gotten from my CZ to date with a max COL from the Hornady 500gr is 2283 fps. I can push that a little bit more to perhaps 2300 fps, and I'm gonna try it one of these days when the snow melts. As a 458WM, with a COL of 3.34", I can easily obtain 2200 fps with the same 500gr Hornady. The difference in my rifle, so far is 2283 minus 2202 = 81 fps! That's in the ball park with Hornady and Barnes data.

And, I think Ray should check out recent data, especially using IMR4320 in either the Win Mag or Lott. It doesn't show very well.

What I said to this point doesn't even include AA2230. I have NO DOUBTS, it's THE powder for the Win Mag, and easily closes the gap between the two .458s to about 50 fps, or less, all else equal!!!

So, if I WANTED more than a .458WM, it wouldn't be the Lott! It would be the .460 WBY. And I could have that done in my rifle (CZ550)as the action and freebore allows it. But why???
I'm not interested in shooting a 460 WBY with a break! Or adding 3 lbs! Or shooting it at 458WM levels! Or injuring my neck, shoulders or hearing more than they are now, as I approach my 74th year in a couple of weeks. Over 100 ft-lbs of recoil, NO ONE NEEDS to kill whatever walks, flys, swims or slithers!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Some 458 Lott samplings out of credible folks:

Out of a CZ: I started at 81gr and went up 1gr at a time. Velocity peaked at 83gr (accurate data listed 86gr as max) with muzzle velocity at 2300fps. And a follow up: As a follow up to my initial post, I shot several loads over the chronograph today. The temperature today was in the 30's vs last Sunday in the low 50's and the velocity did not change more than a few fps. The 83gr load of AA2520 with a 500gr Hornady SP clocked 2307, 2301 and 2306 and went into about a 1.5" group. I loaded several loads with the 500gr Hornady solids as well and at 83.5gr of AA2520 the velocity was 2296,2297 and 2301. That 3 shot group went into 1". The only problem I need to work out now is that the solids shoot about 3-4 inches below the softnose.

And another one: I loaded just two rounds for each load tested Sunday (AA2520) and the widest spread in velocity was 11fps. At 83gr of 2520 the two rounds clocked 2296 and 2300. I think the chalenge is going to be getting the solids to shoot to the same or approx POI of the soft nose.

More: I use IMR4320 I get with solids 2360 FPS with SP bullets Iget 2280 FPS.

Don't have a dog in this hunt, but if I were to get a 45 it wouldn't be either one. jorge

It seems to me that simply confirms what I wrote above, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, and I follow the guy who wrote 2360 from solids with IMR4320. He writes a lot of stuff that's ???

I'm speaking of IMR 4320 today, NOT yesteryear. Buy a new can and try it...

For not having a dog in the fight, you seem to want to challenge those who do. As I said, if I wanted more, and I don't, it would be the 460 WBY, NOT the Dakota! The Dakota is a pretender

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I have two Winchester model 70's in .458 calibers! One has a 22 inch barrel and one has a 24 inch barrel. I will tell you that I have gotten a Max of 2010-fps out of the 22 inch barrel .458 using 500 grain bullets. The other .458 Win mag has done an honest 2105-fps Max load in 95 degree heat.

Hornady says the .458 Win mag with 500 grn bullet will do 2200-fps with a 24 inch barrel. Powder being AA2230 at 78.3 grains. I have never tried this powder in my rifles.

Now I also have a converted .458 Winchester model 70, that was turned into a .458-Lott......cost was $80 dollars 10 years ago. Now it to has a 22 inch barrel and the Max velocity has been 2210-fps using a 500 grain bullet. Hornady once again states MAX in their manual as being 2250-fps with 500 grn bullet using Win.-748 powder at 86.8 grains of powder. I thought in the beginning, that I could reach that 2300-fps bracket but no cigar.

I then turned all my attention to the .470-Capstick, which does indeed turn in 2340-fps out of my 24 inch barrel rifle, with 500 gran bullets and a heavy does of IMR-4320 powder, 89.5 grains. I was also under the impression that the .416-Weatherby was the penetration King!

Tonk;

I'll invite Indy to answer that one as he has a 22" M70 in .458WM and has easily obtained 2200 fps from 500s using AA2230!

And I believe him!

But my own experience, having not used AA2230 yet - and recent information from my supplier is that they still don't have it in - is that I've received 2200 fps from the 500gr Hornady RN from two ball powders at SAAMI COL - H335 and AA2460. I believe, and have yet to try it, that I can get more than that at 3.34" from the 500 Hornady and H335. I'll let you know.

What powders were you using in your Winchesters?

The late Finn Aagaard (former PH and gun writer - one of the best) got 2188 fps from Federal 500 factory loads in his 23" custom barrel. It had a short leade. From 4 other factory rifles with an average "freebore" of about .75" he received anywhere from about 2090 fps (M70, 22") to 2138 fps (24" Browning Safari). Those were Federal factory loads. Winchester and Remington were very poor (underloaded). In his custom, he said there were NO signs of undue pressure.

If we assume the Federal load was within SAAMI specs, then we also have to assume that 2188 fps from a (certain)500gr is legit from a 23" barrel.

As Aagaard pointed out, factory loads (generally), and handloads (generally)are very low pressure and underloaded. Until companies began to test the psi of their loads for the 458 WM, and publish the pressure, much of what was published in reloading manuals amounted to something far less than maximum loads. Olin published the CUP for their loads for the 510 SP and 500 solid, using W748, and they were about 40,000 CUP from a 24" test barrel going about 2040 fps! By the time those loads were shipped to dealers, and fired in 22" factory M70s, they were making less than 2000 fps! THIS AMMO gave the .458WM a reputation it didn't deserve!

If you load your rifles with the right components to near SAAMI psi, from a 24" tube, 2150fps should easily be within reach, and 2200 fps from some powders.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

On 458wm performance, especially with Winchester ammo, keep in mind that just three hunters killed over 15,000 elephants with the combo and none of them ever reported any problems. Two of them are rolific authors.

Richard Harlan, Ron Thomson, Paul Grobler. 458wm, Winchester factory solid loads, 15,000 elephants.

Add 100-200fps with today's powders and the 458wm only shines more.

Jorge, 2150fps with 500gr bullets out of the 458wm at less than 100% load density is actually easy to achieve. Just buy a can of AA 2230.

JPK

JPK.... one more that has over 6000 Mike Lagrange and he's still at it!

Well at some point, intelligent conversation becomes banter and all manor of contradictions arise and half truths become dominent, therefore lets just say that its best to agree to disagree...especially since I have contended from the very start that the .458 wasn't a good killer of anything, it is and I have said so repeatably, that was never questioned!

Hi, Ray,

You posted some load density data for the .458WM using several powders (though not AA2230, for some reason).

Would you mind telling us WHY you think that load densities over 100% cause any problems whatsoever?

In a gazillion years of handloading I have only had problems with powder changing its burning characteristics in the case a couple of times. Both cases were 30-06 reloads at about 75% loading density. You could hear the powder rattle if you shook the case.

Tonk,

One problem with the .458 WM is that some published data is suspect or just plain wrong.

You quoted Hornady about a 500 grain bullet using 78.3 grains of AA2230. I fired one shot with AA2230 (weighed) and a 500 grain Barnes monolithic solid. The chronograph showed 2376, the bolt was very hard to open, and the case showed an extractor mark. I fired no more shots using this load.

My guess is that this load is about 4 or 5 grains over maximum, no matter what Hornady says. Maybe the "8" is simply a typo.

INday,
I did not post AA2230 because I have not used it, maybe its the seventh sign, the holy grail of 458ism, but I doubt it....

It is pretty basic that over 100% load density is compaction, and its pretty basic that compaction is a blivet, that being 10 lbs. of s--t in a 5 lb. bag and that has caused more misfires in the .458 and partial misfires that effected penetration and thats how all this stuff got started with the .458 in the first place and I know of instances with some real well known PHs wherein they had penetration problems on elephants...It's been going on for ions now, both sides determined..

As for me, I surrender, I don't even care!!

I used to agree with this, but a few years ago in Arizona I had a primer blow on me with FACTORY ammo. I had to pound the bolt open with a block of wood, and have a gunsmith remove the enlarged case from the bolt face. The temperature was 101 degrees and the rifle a Remington 722 in 308 Win. No, the rifle does not have excessive headspace.

JB has written that he has yet to find a powder that doesn't increase in velocity and pressure over 70 degrees.

JV

I guess I will wait until summer and after getting my new "chrony" to run some more loads in those .458 model 70 Winchesters of mine. I was told by several people that I should use 450 grain bullets in the .458 mag but after getting the .470-Capstick together never really bothered. I will also try the AA-2230 and see if I can get 2200fps like the Hornady manual states at 78.3 grains using a 500 grain bullet.

Hornady has the .458 Win mag getting 2200fps with a 500 grn bullet and yet the .458-LOTT only reaches 2250fps, this seems a bit strange to me but I don't hunt elephants with either. I have always been told that the .458-LOTT is at least 100fps faster in velocity, so what gives gents?

Indy, how much AA powder did you use in that ONE LOAD you tried? Now was it in fact 78.3 grains or something else please? I myself would surely start far below that listing that Hornady gave but I would hope their listing was NOT a mistake. I have had barrels of different measure on the chrony as much as 120fps faster than another barrel of the same length and caliber, with the same load. I am going to call Hornady just to hear their explanation of the load listed in their 7th edition manual.

Indy,
My post was made tongue in cheek. If you turn the page in that Barnes #4 to the .460 you will see that I was asked to write the commentary for that cartridge becuase I have a fair understanding on what it will do. Australia gets just as hot as Africa which is why I "joked" about the "excess pressure" aspects.

Hope this clears up your concerns.

John

444afic,

Yeah, all powder do gain in pressure and hence velocity in ambient temperatures over 70 degrees, but the question is whether the pressure gets high enough to be a problem. And modern powders (especially the latest ones) tend to gain a LOT less pressure than the ones that caused problems in "tropical heat" so many years ago.

One of the other constant rumors we hear is that the .416 Remington Magnum is prone to develop too-high pressures in very hot weather--especially factory ammo. Well, I tested some .416 factory ammo from around 1990 and some very recent stuff on a 95-degree August day here in Montana. Just to be sure the ammo and rifle were good and hot, I left the rifle in the sun between shots, and put a number of rounds inside a plastic bag (greenhouse effect) with a small thermometer. The temperature of the ammo got up to 110 degrees, whereupon I shot it without a problem. As I recall both the old and new stuff gained maybe 50 fps in velocity, and I could open the bolt with my little finger. Muzzle velocities were right where they should be, 2400 fps or a little more.

I haven't fooled with the .458 much, but did get a barrel fitted to an FN Mauser action and will be trying it this next summer. My guess is that all the old problems were just that, caused by ammo that lay around for years in really hot buildings until the powder congealed. I am going to try to get some AA2230 but am alos going to try Ramshot TAC, which I suspect might be a real good one in the .458.

Another modern powder that might work very well is Varget. Hodgdon lists 2152 fps with the Hornady 500-grain at only 48,000 CUP. Varget is the original Extreme powder from Hodgdon, so in theory anyway should be very good in hot weather. It is als a extruded powder, and I've never had the slightes problem with compressed loads of extruded powders--well, except for having to jump up and down on the press handle now and then to seat a bullet, or having the same bulet push its way forward back out of the case after a day or two. But I've never had a pressure problem with any compressed load of extruded powder (the problems with the old factory .458 loads were with ball powder) so will see what happens.

I won't get into the interesting 458 debate as I would be in over my head. However, this quote is very misleading to anybody who would draw the logical inference that comes from the statement. For those who are reading who are less knowledgable this should be clerified. Just because one caliber has a lower recoil than another doesn't mean every shooter shooting the gun with lower recoil will shoot more accurately than someone else who is shooting a gun with higher recoil. I see people flinch shooting guns with neglible recoil all the time. I also see people shoot high-recoiling shoulder cannons as if they were .22s.

JB, While you are doing the 458 tests, I would be very interested to see how Reloader 17 works in either the WinMag or Lott. Have seen Quickload data for the Lott and it looked interesting. Ran 80 gns Re17 behind a 450 TSX at 3.60" oal in a 458WM CZ550 with the long mag box with no pressure signs, but it was too late in the day to get a chrono reading. According to the quickload data I saw that should have been a mild Lott starting load but haven't had a chance to work with it any further.

Disclaimer- Alliant said they have no Re17 data for the WinMag or Lott, and even though that load did not cause a problem in my rifle I cannot guarantee it will be safe in any other.

Mule Deer,

I tried Varget with high hopes. It didn't work out in my rifle, at least not nearly as well as AA 2230 or even H 4895. Don't have my notes, but iirc, it peaked at about 2150fps or so (26" barrels) and was very dirty with lots of unburned powder in the barrels. Was bulkier than AA 2230 as well, iirc. My read is too slow.

Might want to try H 335, or if you are looking for an Extreme extruded powder, then maybe Benchmark or H 322.

JPK

JB, my apologies for referencing only a portion of your work. I mentioned the 308 factory load as a sample of one (I say a sample of one because I stopped shooting after the blown primer!), that loads that work fine at normal temperatures can at least occasionally exhibit excessive pressure at higher ambient temperatures. Personally, I would be leery of loading a DG cartridge to high pressure without testing if it is to be used in Africa, but that is not necessarily an indictment of the 458 Win.

JV

So, can we assume you'll be using a lead sled for load development?

JPK,

Thanks for the info on Varget. What primer did you use? Benchmark does look like another possible choice.

The reason I am going to try Ramshoit TAC is that it has a very simlar burning rate to H335--but is temp-resistant and MUCH cleaner burning. I have had excellent luck with it in a wide variety of cartridges, especially where powder space is at a minimum.

doubletap,

Oh yeah, a Lead Sled will be deployed....

I used Federal 215's.

Never thought of Ramshot TAC. Hmmm...

FWIW, I tried the AA 2230 in cool and in hot temps, about 50*F and about 100*F, leaving the ammo and the rifle in direct sunlight on the hot day until they were thouroughly heated through and uncomfortably hot to hold and I saw no velocity increase that caught my eye. I didn't run long strings and average them out, but any notable delta was lost in round to round, barrel to barrel variance.

JPK

Tonk,

Sorry, I forgot to post the charge weight. I was using 78.0 grains (every shot weighed) of AA2230 with 500 grain Barnes banded solids and F215 primers.

If you try the Hornady load, I would start about 70 or 71 grains and work up a bit at a time. I definitely found that 78 grains was way over maximum in my particular rifle.

Ray,

I suspect that your PHs who experienced lack of penetration, assuming compaction was the problem, were using ammo that was laying around in the sun too many years, maybe even getting wet in the process. Certainly I have never experienced a problem with loads a little over 100% load density, regardless of caliber. Many of the Lott loads are 105% "compacted."

But something has occurred to me. The reason why AA2230 is such a good powder for the .458WM, in my opinion, is that it is much denser than extruded powders like Varget, H4895, etc. But that means it has less space between the grains (balls). High loading density COULD therefore cause more of a problem getting the stuff pasted together though, if this actually ever happened, I suspect it is a Winchester QC problem.

Incidentally, I always load my ammo for any hunting trip within a month of starting the trip. Where I keep my ammo and powder, it is reasonably cool and not humid.

I have some Winchester .458 factory loads from the early 1960s. When I get a chance (you won't find me on the range in freezing weather) I'll shoot them and see if anything bad happens.

Big Sky,

On the contrary.

I have held a Master card in NRA High Power competition since 1961. Lower recoil fosters better accuracy for any particular individual. David Tubb reported that he picked up one point when switching from a .308 to a 7mm-08 in silhouette competition for this reason. In Service Rifle competition, the AR15 came into popularity in the mid 1990s and ever since the M1A does not win the championships, due to the lower recoil of the .223 round vs. the .308 round.

I've often thought that the excellent big game reputation of the .375 H&H, or the 9.3x62, for that matter, might be due to the lower recoil compared with the .45s. Shooters can shoot them better. For me, a 500 grain bullet at 2200 is about as much as I care to take on. In fact, if I had to start over, it would probably be with a .416 and a 400 grain bullet.

Indy your last sentence regarding the 416/400gr selection is pretty much the conclusion I've come to. jorge

Today I ordered some AA2230 from where I bought my CZ 550 in 458WM. They get two shipments of AA powders annually. Next will be in April and my name will be on at least a couple pounds, just in time to escape the winter blahs and go to the range!

I've found H335 to be excellent in my CZ with 500s and 450s. Easily the best I've tried so far: better than AA2460 (slightly), H4895 (third best), IMR4320 (fourth), Varget (fifth), IMR4064 (sixth) and W748 dead last!

2200 fps from the 500 Hornady RN is easy with H335 and it's
proven to be consistent from lot to lot, and temp stable. Also, AA2460 will reach it with a couple more grains and slightly higher pressure, at least in my rifle. Those are at 3.34" COL. Loaded long, I can attain Lott speed.

TAC looks about the same in Barnes #4. In AussieLand H335 is 2206, I believe. It's a much better powder today than a few years ago.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I agree with you 100% and did not mean or attempt to assert otherwise. Your quote which I addressed made it sound like if I had a .308 and you had a .375, I would shoot more accurately than you. I don't believe that to be the case. However, I believe, based on how you said it, that would be the natural inference one would draw from your statement. I know my own limitations and don't know yours. It's entirely possible that you shoot more accurately with a .270 than I do with a .223. However, I agree that we would both shoot more accurately with the .223 than we would with the .270.

Once again, your quote implies that the one of you shooting the lower recoiling rifle will automatically shoot better than the other. I meant no ill will with my "correction" and pointed it out for the less experienced. I'm sure, based on your asserted credentials you would agree.

I've been a military firearms instructor for many, many years and I can with 100% confidence tell you that recoil affects everybody differently.

CZ5550,

Many powders are better than they were a few years ago, because of more competition. Hsve you noticed less powder fouling with H335/2206 in recent lots?

I've got a box of WW 510gr softs in the man cave and nothing to shoot them in!!! i gave a box to badger down at Mickey Colemans when we had our Campfire shoot a few yrs ago but don't know if he ever tested them.

May be time to build a heavy

Mike

IndyCA-35, thanks for the information, I will paste it in my Hornady manual for safe keeping. I will try that powder when the weather warms up a bit.

Bob,
I have long prefered and used 2206 (and 2207 which is H 4198 here) in Aussie for the .458's and since I have been in the US, I found that H335 and H 4198 are again still the favored choices.

One thing I did notice was a considerable increase in velocity when loads worked up in a couple of Model 70's with 22 inch barrels were fired in a CZ 550 with the longer barrel. Those extra inches made more difference that I eexpected in a .458 bore.

John

This is the most sensible comment about big bores I have read in a long time. Those that know, know, those that don't, can get awefully careless with facts.

John

MD;

I started using H335 about 8 years ago (so don't have a lot of history in using it) in two rifles: first in a 350 Rem Mag for 200's and shortly thereafter in a Ruger No.1 in 45-70 Imp (long-throated)with 450's and 500's. Wasn't impressed with results in the 350 RM with its huge fire-ball at the muzzle. In the Ruger, however, it was THE powder! Before that (when the Ruger was "normal'), I touted AA2015BR for everything, as well in my 1895 Marlin. After "discovering" H335, I don't think I ever used AA2015 again. It transformed the Ruger (Imp) into the equivalent of a 458WM with a 22" barrel. I then started using it in my Marlin as well for the heavies.

So, I've used several pounds since, in three rifles: 1895 Marlin, Ruger No.1 45-70 Imp and now (last couple of years) in my CZ 458WM.

Is it as clean as TAC or AA2230? I have no way of knowing since I've not had those available to me. But, I find it no more "dirty" than H4895 or AA2460. Perhaps my first can used in the 350RM was moreso, and probably more erratic. The last two cans (1 lb canisters), or perhaps three, have been wonderfully consistent in .458" bore and they clean-up very easily, in my opinion - then, I've not worked with TAC or AA2230, as mentioned.

Sorry for the long answer to a short question, but felt I had to qualify.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Hi John;

Your experience mirrors mine!

I was about to add this note for JB: that I've also used H335 in an NEF (45-70) with 465gr hardcasts which would shoot into MOA. I killed a very nice bl. bear with that load. One frontal shot and the bruin never moved from its tracks!

My favorite N.A. hunting load for the CZ 550 is the 350TSX over a healthy dose of H4198! I used to use RL-7 but found that extreme temp. change affected MV too much, and hence POI.

I must thank you for getting me onto H4198 for the 350 TSX! Loaded to 3.45" in my CZ it leaves the muzzle at 2753 fps and is VERY consistent with an ES of 4! AND temp. stable! I killed a nice bear with that load in early September. Frontal shot at 90yds. Bullet exited in front of right hip. Never found it.

Thanks John.


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

JB;

Intended to add that I use WLRM primers exclusively. They are VERY hot! But then, you probably know that. Tests show they are hotter than F215 and have a longer burn. That may explain why I have little residue from H335... at least in part.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

CZ550,

Let me fil in a little history of H335 and then see where we are.

It was originally a military surplus powder, but that supply eventually ran out around 1990 or so, whereupon Hodgdon started getting a new version made. This proved to be a little warmer than the original, but worked about the same.

I started using H335 in the .223 in the 1980's, when it was pretty much THE powder in that cartridge among prairie dog shooters, because it metered easily and provided fine accuracy. The only real problem was that it burned very dirty, so much that after 50 rounds the inside of the barrel looked perfecly black, instead of silver. It even covered up any streaks of copper fouling, and of course the powder fouling also increased copper fouling, since powder residue is pretty abrasive. Back then this was a normal part of using ball powders, since their burning rate is mostly controlled by coatings that resist burning.

The newly-manufactured H335 seemed to burn just as dirty as the old, so when Ramshot TAC (a "new and improved" ball powder that pretty much solved the dirty-burning problem) was introduced in 2001, and proved to be very accurate in the .223, I switched and never looked back.

However, since Hodgdon now controls production of H335 today's may be a newer version that doesn't burn as dirty. If so, that would be great.

I haven't shot any in the last 8 years. I get all the press releases from Hodgdon and can't remember getting one about a cleaner-burning H335, but they may not have made anty announcement--though Alliant did, big-time, when they introduced the cleaner-burning version of Unique a few years ago. However, Hodgdon may be quiter about such things, as I don't think they announced the replacement of the mil-surp H335 with the newly manufactured stuff 20 years ago.

Thanks John for the history lesson. I was aware that it was a mil-surp ball powder to start with and used a great deal in the .223.

Your experience with H335 pre-dates mine and I'm not even sure why I had it on hand about 8 years ago, other than wanting a suitable ball powder for the 350RM, since H4895 seemed too crowded in the short case of the 350. I then used AA2015 in the 350 for a time, and within a year switched again to RL-15 which seemed ideal.

I think standards are tighter today than back then, and, as you say, competition (more options)has caused that to happen.

Appreciate your knowledge and input.

Take care,

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

We don't talk much of Rel 15 but if we did, I suspect that it would provide one of the best and more versatile powders for use in non magnum cartriges.

Who can question that? 15 THOUSAND ELEPHANTS? That's good enough for me, and I would estimate a sight more elephants than the sum total of every poster on this thread has accumulated. AA 2230 has rejuvinated the Win mag, if it needed it. I don't think it did.

Well ... Harland in his books does question the 458WinMag despite his obvious success (with a PF rifle!!) and recommends the best thing that can be done to a CZ/Brno is to rechamber to 458Lott. He also names the 458WinMag and the 416Rem as being two cartridges were fresh ammunition is important. Quality control issues with earlier ammunition are also acknowledged. Elsewhere he's mentioned that he did have elephants not go done that he felt should have, but never followed up to determine why ... he just shot them again.
Cheers...
Con

Some ambivalence and ambiguity, eh Con?

Some people are never happy with 100%. They must strive for 101%! And without doubt would never be satisfied with 120% either if it were achievable. The problem isn't the ballistics but the psyche.

Why would anyone, who buys a very fine CZ 550 in .458WM, feel they NEED more as they would already have more than ample in their .458WM, and they also have the equivalent of a Lott if they handload?

Me? I'm usually happy with 95%. But then life is so full of misses and disappointments that I can live with less than that.
100% is NEVER attainable in all of life, even in the hunting fields if you spend more time hunting than dreaming.

A CZ 550 in .458WM can do it all in big game hunting anywhere in the world, whatever the legal target. Nothing more is needed. And most of the time it isn't needed. Today, my CZ is my go-to rifle for most hunting of big game, for what I hunt and where I hunt. That's moose and black bear. If I were ever to make it to Africa again, with the chance to hunt buff or ele, that would be my rifle. Period. End of discussion.

Those who change their CZ 550 in .458WM into a Lott will never be satisfied either. They will start looking at 450 Dakotas, .500's, etc.

Go to the AR forum and check out their Big Bores section and you'll see what I mean.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I'm reminded of something my PH said to me when I questioned performance of my 9.3. He said "How much deader than dead do you want?"

Totally agree ... isn't it the uncertainty that makes hunting so much fun and challenging? Ultimately the psyche of the person and their skill at arms wins the day, Manners never wanted for more than a 375H&H, Bell promoted his small-bores feeling that more was not required, Cotter used a 32Winchester until it ultimately proved inadequate. In the majority of circumstances the man maketh the tool, not vice versa.
Cheers...
Con

I have a true love affair with my Model 70 .375. It gives me great pleasure just to shoot it occasionally at the range. I don't shoot it excessively, because it is unerringly accurate and I don't want to burn out that wonderful barrel. Winchester got it right on this one.

But...after my last buffalo hunt, I bought a .458 Win, almost identical to my PH's, but it's on a LH Ruger African action instead of a Husqvarna push feed, which has served him well for over twenty years. I would prefer a Dakota Action, or a model 70, as the Ruger is not a true CRF, as my guinsmith mentioned the day I took delivery. He's right. It's half push feed and half CRF. But it works if I do my part.

The buff, shot through the heart and dead on his feet, naturally didn't know it and turned to charge. We were in heavy cover, so my PH spined him from ten yards through a thorn bush with a Hornady solid.

I was impressed with the .458's performance. I have already mentioned his standard load of 74 grains of AA 2230 behind a 500 grain bullet, soft and solid. I saw what that solid could do.

I have no trouble with the increased recoil impulse. I'm 67 and weigh 155, but I can handle it. I have only fired about forty rounds through it so far, but I am shooting it very accurately at 25 and 50 yards with the great NECG sight combo. My rifle weighs 8.5 pounds in irons. The balance is perfect. I'm going to scope it, which will bring it up to around ten pounds, a perfect weight for this 22" barreled rifle.

I would hunt anything on earth with my .375. I can shoot it and I have faith in the combination of me and my .375. But I will develop confidence in the .458 as I shoot it more and more. With my PH's load, it will kill anything on earth, as long as I do my job and place the bullet precisely.

If a .470 NE at 2150 fps is the choice of more double rifle owners than any other, then a .458 Winchester mag attaining velocities of 2150 with a 500 grain bullet should do just as well.

The history of African hunting proves the .458 Win is a very viable caliber. No amount of hairsplitting and over-analyzing will change my opinion. Fifteen thousand-plus dead elephants killed by three guys with Win mags proves the viability of the .458 Winchester magnum beyond any reasonable doubt for a reasonable man, and I am exactly that.

I don't get emotionally involved in the minutiae of fifty or a hundred feet per second, as long at I'm getting over 2100. And I am. So that's my two cents, or maybe my five cents, since this post is a bit longer than I intended.

I guess it all boils down to a personal choice and we can all rationalize our choices. I purchase rifles to hunt with but who knows one day I may just want to blow big holes in paper and the weight of the rifles and muzzle brakes do not matter.

The CZ is a large action and the 458 win. mag. does not require such a large action....one of the benefits of the win. mag. is it can be housed in a standard action which makes for a lighter, timmer rifle....but to each his own and that's the way it should be.

AussieGunWriter......I do believe there was a man who wrote an article back in the 1980's on that vary same subject! Selection of the best rifle on an African Safari etc. The gentleman's name was Peter Hathaway Capstick. The #1 pick was the .375H&H caliber.

Never read much Capstick, no books, 1, perhaps 2 articles.

JW

Richard Harlan remains a big fan of the 458wm. I have traded comms with him on it and he is as ardent a believer now as when he was a Rhodesian Parks Warden.

He does like to load his rifle to 2150fps now, and does it using Somchem powders. But the Winchester factory ammo he used on so many elephants probably chrono'd around 2050fps, at least it did for those who tested it.

{As an aside, a Chronograph can be a hell of thing, instilling (over)confidence in bullet/velocity combos that don't deserve it and impairing confidence in proven bullet/velocity combos the track record of which ought to reinforce confidence.}

Of course, 2050fps is about the field velocity of several of the different 450NE's and the 470 too. For example, the nominal velocity of the historic 470 load is 2125fps from a 31" barrel. Lop five, six or seven inches off the barrel...

Run a .474" solid at 2050fps and a similar .458" solid at the same speed and the .458" solid will penetrate better. But run the .458" bullet at 2150fps and it will far surpass its performance at 2050fps. The difference is visible on buff and on elephants.

JPK

Who started the rumor that the Lott only reaches 2250 FPS, that's just not right, not even close. Just because somebody puts something like that in print, is isn't necessarily fact..

Any Lott can safely shoot a 500 gr. bullet at 2350 FPS, and in a 26 inch barrel on one gun I got 2501 FPS and a flat primer and an extractor mark, but no sticky bolt that I could detect, but that was probably too hot of a load, but the primer was firm after two firings of that load, a bit loose on the 3rd...I cut back 4 grs. to 84 grs of IMR-4320 and determined that 84 grs. is a safe but max load in all .458 Lotts that I have worked with.

My accuracy load and the load I always used was 83 grs. of IMR-4320 for a tad over 2300 FPS. That is an awesome killer of anything that walks, talks, breaths or crawls..I played with 450 gr. bullets in the Lott and they really cooked but penetration was less in my box and on game, I attribute the less penetration to the resistence set up by the higher velocity. My therory only.

That is also an awesome amount of recoil to deal with, at least for me. I can shoot it but I have to concentrate to do so..Because of that I have been shooting the 404, 416s ever since and that is my caliber of choice, hands down..

If the cartridge drawings I've looked at are correct, the Lott enjoys a roughly 12% increase in case capacity over the Win.( 144gr of water vs 129gr). Just how does one get a 9-15% increase in muzzle velocity, given such a modest increase in capacity. High pressure, that's how! There are certain mathematical laws you simply can't overcome or override with how you think or feel your load is performing. You can ignore it if you like. I certainly don't want to be sitting at a bench within the blast zone of someone firing such miracle loads in their Lott!

Jeff

Mr. Atkinson I will look for the article in which Jack Lott himself wrote on the .458-LOTT. I am very positive he got 2300fps or faster in his test loads. The article shows him shooting that .458-LOTT while standing erect and the muzzle jump that .458-LOTT presented was a bunch in that picture. I would be willing to say that the .458-LOTT can reach 2350fps with no sweat! I also remember a gunsmith, telling me he had gotten 2350fps out of a .458 win mag, that he rechambered to the .458-LOTT caliber back in 1989.

If you want 2350fps in a properly weighted rifle, the .460 is still on the shelf and has 51 years of positive references by people who own one. I said that deliberately, as I never met a .460 expert who owned one. Also met a lot that never shot one.

2350fps is a lot of horsepower.

The reason many people are saying that the .458 Lott is only capable of around 2250 fps with a 500-grain bullet is that once it became a factory round it was actually pressure-tested.
It was found that most handload formulas that gave 2300+ fps were well over what is generally considered "normal" pressures today.

This isn't unusual when any wildcat becomes a factory round. When the 7mm STW was THE hot-shot wildcat, most people (inclouding Layne Simpson) reported muzzle velocities of at least 3500 fps and often 3600 with 140-grain bullets "without any sign of high pressure." When Remington adopted it and started testing handloads, they found that almost all produced 70,000 psi or even more. Which is why no 7mm STW 140-grain factory load has ever been listed at over 3400 fps.

If the .458 Lott has a powder capacity advantage of 15% over the .458 Winchester, then the laws of internal ballistics would indicate about a 4% advantage in muzzle velocity for the Lott AT THE SAME PRESSURE. If the .458 Winchester is capable of 2150 with a 500-grain bullet, then the Lott would be capable of about 2236 fps--again, at the same pressure.

Of course, a lot more velocitu is possible when loading to 70,000 psi or more. Luckily, modern rifles can take a lot of pressure, one reason so many enthusiastic wildcatters still have all their fingers.

So ostensibly a Lott is a 100 or so gain over the WM given reasonable pressures? Hell, given those parameters I'll take the WM anyday then given the shorter ation. For the record I don't care for either one. The Dakota, Rigby and Weatherby being far superior in both velocity AND less feeding problems and none of them ever in a double. jorge

Will they apply special powders etc however to boost the 458Lott? Once a factory load (Norma I believe)... what will the 416Taylor be held at as it's another one that has been said to be overloaded to achieve 2400fps. If it only gives 2200fps ... would it prove popular or wither on the vine?
Cheers...
Con

One thing that Phil Shoemaker has pointed out is that when the Lott became legit at SAAMI the specs given it resulted in a much shorter throat than Jack's original and other customs based on his.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I would be interested in what the real pressures would be with 83 and 84 grs. of IMR-4320 as I am sure the factory didn't use that powder.

Like most, I do not have pressure testing equipment, and can only go by the usual tell tale signs, but that has kept me in one piece for many years now..With those loads I got 2350 FPS (albiet I always used a 26 inch barrel) and the primers, were good, no extractor marks, no sticky bolt lift, reloaded a single case 10 times, with 3 trims, according to my files. That indicates to me that I was not working at 70,000 PSI, but like I said, I have no other means of testing with any of my rifles. Also in this conversation, one must allow that the 458 Win. boys are operating at high pressure also. sooooo?

I wish I would have sent those loads to Mike at Northfork. I got into a conversation with the 404 Jefferys wherein 95 grs. of IMR-4831 gave me 2653 FPS in my 27 inch original Jefferys, and the pressure thing was challanged...Mike did the testing, got 2590 FPS in his 24 inch test barrel and safe pressure. He allowed my loads were safe and with the additional 2 inches of barrel that I was in the ballpark...The recoil was intense, so I loaded them at 93 grs. for a bit over 2400 FPS for hunting, which I intended to do all the time.

Like most, we can only play with what we have to work with. I feel the 458 Lotts that I played with were safe, at least I hope they were and I shot that load quite a bit without any problems.. I used magnum acitons on my Lotts and though I don't recall offhand I strongly suspect I have long throats so as to seat the bullets out to match the magazines. that in itself would releave a good deal of pressure.

Anyway I submit the above for what its worth..I don't shoot either the 458 Win or the Lott as I went to the 40 calibers almost exclusively some years ago, as I have bursitas in my neck and shoulders from shooting those big kickers. The 416s are about my limit these days. Age and caliber are definatly related

Additionally by way of edit, I would like to add that adding 100 FPS in a big bore caliber is very sugnificant. Adding a 100 FPS to a 458 Win. makes it a considerably better killer and if pressure was OK then none of the conflab would have ever come about...

You cannot apply the same set of rules to a big bore that you can to a high velocity magnum..100 FPS in a .270 or 300 whizbang means nothing, but in a 40 caliber with bullets of 400 grs. and up it means a lot and it gets more so as the bore size increases..add 100 FPS to a 577 or a 600 and your bicuspids will fly and the difference in killing effect can be observed.

Just joined and wow - heckuva good urination match here. I enjoyed it. I am far far less knowledgeable than you guys.

However, having just gotten my first big bore other than a .45-70, which is a CZ 550 safari mag in .458 WM rifle like some of you have, I have a quick question:

The purpose of this rifle is for a "someday-Africa" trip ONLY, and really only for nyati, though I might use it for eland as well. I have never stepped foot out of the USA, to give you an idea of my paucity of experience in world hunting.

The bullet I have selected for reloading is the 450 TSX (a 400 TSX would be absolutely perfect but alas is not made). I will likely use H335 as that is what I have on hand (but could be convinced to change if a good reason). My dark horse 2nd choice bullet is a 400 A-frame, but I think I'll go Barnes. (Don't suppose anyone considers the 350 TSX enough for dugga boys?)

My question is this: This bullet (the 450 TSX) has 4 crimping cannelures; which one should I crimp onto in order to take advantage of the longer action and freebore of this rifle (attaining at or near .458 Lott performance as some claim), while still keeping enough contact with the neck to hold the bullet straight - the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cannelure? And, what is the "accepted standard" for counting these (from which end of the bullet) - do you count from the nose to tail, top to bottom (1,2,3,4), or bottom up (1,2,3,4) - so that we're communicating properly? And which cannelure would be the "standard" choice in other actions / traditionally, for traditional COL? So, please describe whether the cannelure you recommend using for max powder capacity in this rifle is "one cannelure away from," or "two away from" the standard - do you see what I'm asking? I can't measure anything because I haven't ordered my components yet, but note that Barnes recommends seating TSXs "between .030 and .070 off the lands" (which would be *what* COL with this bullet and this rifle's throat?).

Probably never shoot this beyond 75 yards, so don't need to attain more than 2,200, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to go a bit more if this is possible. I guess I should be prepared for a shot at 100 yards if necessary on a buff, so I want to squeeze the most performance I can with zero pressure issues. Also, which is it: (1) the TSX needs 2000 I.V. but the TTSX needs 1800, or (2) the TSX needs 1800 but the TTSX needs 2000? I've seen it claimed both ways. That makes a BIG difference to me in how hot to load these. If it's 1800 with TSX, then I can make a downright pussycat load (2100 or less), which will please my retinas and other old body parts to no end.

Thanks.

One tiny unimportant sidebar: Prior owner of this rifle dispensed with the set trigger and installed a standard one, which I understand is recommended for DG and is fine by me - but how many of you experienced folks with BRNO 602s have actually done this? Does it really matter?

Hi Danny

Welcome to the 24 hour campfire and be warned, there are a lot of rude, impolite and even a few stupid folks that post here. Ignore them. Freedom is a quality that I for one treasure, and that means others have the right to be idiots and act rude. But you have as much right to ignore them as they do to fly their large "I'm stupid' flags.

Once you identify them it's quite easy to go around them and gain information and entertainment from the other 99% of the posters here, which can be a world of knowledge and information --------- available to you for nothing but the cost of some of your time.

Anyway, -------your CZ is a fine rifle and will serve you well.

The cartridge over-all length is easy enough to come up with because #1 is it likely posted in the Barnes Manual and it's on their web-site, shown as 3.340" . But remember The magazine dimension of your rifle will show you what you need. Crimp in the groove that allows you to load the gun. Pretty simple really. I would crimp where Barnes says and I am betting they are going to be right.

#2, I have owned the old CZ 602 and also the 550s. In big chamberings from the 416s and up, I'd agree with the previous owner of your rifle. the set trigger is not ever going to be wanted or needed. In a 375 or smaller it's not beyond the possibility of needed to take a 300 yard or longer shot some time, but for a 458, I see no game animal you'd shoot with it that is small enough to need that degree of precision, and such game is not far away from you.

Big and close are 2 things that preclude the practical use of a set trigger.
You'll never miss it and you'll never really want one in those conditions.

I never had the need to crimp the 458 except with lead bullets. Technically those grooves are driving bands or relief grooves not crimping grooves but they can accept a sort of roll crimp. I would treat yours like any other bullet work up. Find maximum cartridge length either touching the lands or maximum magazine length then seat minus .01". Then shoot for groups and seat deeper by .03" and test again and repeat with another setback etc.. Once you start to see a sweet spot you can fine tune the final COL. Or just start with the Barnes length and see how it shoots.

The scenarios that require crimping are heavily compressed loads where the powder can push the bullet forward and when you keep a full magazine and repeatedly only fire the top round after multiple shots there can be some battering and change in COL. I try to avoid both these scenarios if possible. But once you find the optimal COL then try crimped and un-crimped if the mouth of the case aligns with the grooves of the bullet. Uniformly trimmed cases help with crimping consistency but even with this I have not seen improved accuracy by crimping but other people claim it can improve accuracy. Many crimp just for peace of mind which I can appreciate. You should have minute of buffalo accuracy in just a couple of range sessions.

I would probably not use a 458 as a single gun battery due to the effects of cumulative recoil and the chance for a longer shot. But Elmer Kieth proved the 458 is capable of longer ranges if the shooter is. He would shoot his out to 600 yards on targets at least.

Agree with Szinh and he has more big bore experience than me or most others. Some like a two stage trigger on a dangerous game gun to help prevent a shot going off too soon when excited. Probably a good idea but a matter of preference. A set trigger could be trouble if accidentally set or if filled with grit. The closer to the original Mauser or the Model 70 the better in my opinion.

Oh, ok, I see. Very helpful. I thought these big boomers needed a taper crimp so as not to come unseated in the magazine under recoil. Well that makes it easy then. I'll just work off the lands (within reason). Thanks for the nice welcome.

Oh, no...not using a single gun battery. Planning on taking at least 3 rifles; maybe 4. In addition to this one, a .375 HH mag (with 270 non-premiums), a .30-06, and a 6.5x55. But can likely only afford ONE species that will require the .458, and so that will be buff since that is my primary goal, but if I hit the lotto, might take and eland as well. My non-premium 270s .375 would be marginal on eland, from what I've read, but plenty for slightly smaller critters like zebra, blue wildebeest, roan, kudu, waterbuck.

Danny;

You can read my blogs on this (CZ550 in .458 Win) if you want, but I owned the same rifle for a number of years. Crimp in the BOTTOM (near the base of the bullet) groove for a COL of 3.78" (longer than the Lott by .18". Therefore, you can exceed Lott ballistics if you want. Plus, you still have more "freebore" (leade) than the Lott. That's with the 500 TSX. The 450 TSX will give a COL of 3.68" -- still longer than the Lott at 3.6". That's a common procedure today.

Best powders are 2230, Tac, H335 and H4895. I mostly use H335 for the heavy weights. For the 350 TSX, it's H4198 in my current Ruger Tropical #1 .458 with a 24" barrel. Read my most recent results of this past week at :

www.bigbores.ca

Bob (You should also read on the .458 Win Mag at the AR forums, Big Bores - .458 Winchester Magnum, especially the last 1/2. Now at about 126 pages!!)

Great blog and info; thank you. Much appreciated.

One little aside that your blog reminds me of..... I had a CZ 550 FS in 9.3x62 for several years, right after they first came out, with a Burris Signature Series 1.5-6x42. This is the mannlicher / 20.5" one. Well like an idiot I traded it to a hunting buddy for a trailer back in Okla. So now for the past few years, I've been trying to talk that friend into selling it back to me at an inflated price - I thought I would be successful since he loves HSLD rounds (e.g. he has a rifle in 6.5-.300 RUM!). But he keeps resisting and says he'll think about it. Now, since not only has CZ discontinued the FS, they discontinued all 550s, I want it back even more. Needless to say, reading your blog about a brush gun is not helping my fever any. This friend is recovering from back surgery - I think I'll send him a get well soon card and gift to soften him up, ha ha.

There is an awful lot of speculating,pontificating and out right fabricating on this forum. As John and Jeff have pointed out, with equal pressures there is less than 100 fps differences between the WM and the Lott. And the ballisticians at Hornady, who actually measure such thing, tell me that with the same powders and pressures there is only 60 fps between the two !
But those of you who refuse to believe those facts, and are confident in your loads and the fact that bigger is always better, then by all means use the Lott if you think it is superior. But then why not simply get a 460 Weatherby if you think a lot of extra velocity is needed ?

That's about right for the top temp-stabilized powder (H4895 for both for 500gr).

The advantage to the Lott, to the extent that there is one, is that H4895 load is uncompressed, while it's slightly compressed in the WM. Whether you think that matters with stick powders is mostly a religious question - they don't fail in some hideous way just because they're compressed.

Pretty sure most airlines limit you to 2 rifles, some 3.

Tell you... I've shot the 458 Win Mag and the 450 Ackley.

Shot 'em okay - but I have to admit that's one level above what I enjoy shooting!

I enjoy shooting my 375, and shoot it well. But those doggone 45 cal rifles slinging 500 gr bullets... That's a step beyond my comfort zone.

Much respect for those who shoot 'em well and enjoy it.

Guy

Guy,

A .45 (or slightly larger or smaller) caliber of that power isn't all that bad--as long as the stock fits you reasonably well. Have shot quite a few, both at targets and game, and a .458 Lott isn't that bad IF it fits well. But fitting well depends very much on the stock. Most .458's (of whatever chambering) are set up to shoot both with a scope and iron sights, and unless both irons and scope are pretty close in height, recoil can be miserable when shooting with the scope. Have seen this over and over again in various larger-bore rifles, including the .375 H&H No. 1 you now own. I found the recoil without a scope gentler with same loads, even though the rifle weighed a pound less, because of stock-fit.

Which is why I had D'Arcy Echols put NECG express sights on my bolt-action .375 H&H that are just about as high as the scope in Talley detachable mounts--and then stocked it myself so the comb was the right height for both.

Same deal with larger cartridges, whether the .416s (or thereabouts), .45's, or 470's and .500's--though part of it is also weight. One of the most miserable rifles I've ever fired was a .470 NE double that only weighed 9 pounds--a 13-pound .600 NE was far more comfortable. But the one .458 Lott I've shot extensively fit me well with the express sights, and wasn't bad at all.

Cascade,you can load them down to a level that is comfortable. Then slowly work up to full power if you want. My .460 is loaded with a 500 grain bullet at 2300 fps and there is not one elephant or cape buffalo that will not notice the extra 300-400 fps that the .460 capable of.

Right now I'm going to work up a load in the .460 with the Speer 350 grain bullet. I'm hoping to get 2500-2600 fps with them and get busy on the rabbit population.

Check with gunner500, see what brand he's drinking and get you some...

DF

Thanks, mule deer and everyone. I will say that 10 rounds of my .375 HH and I'm pretty much done, so I may have made a mistake getting this one. We'll see. I weighed this CZ 550 and it's 9 lbs, 7.8 oz unloaded & no sling, but with scope/rings and with the brake that came with it (wearing a Leupold VX-1 Hog 1-4x20 at the moment).

As a silly sidebar, anyone think there's anything to this idea that Lehigh bullets somehow create a great permanent cavity without expanding from the nose / flute design? There's little doubt they'd penetrate enough, but I seriously doubt these claims about wound cavities being the equal or better than a traditional bullet or monometal. It would be cool but I'm sure fantasy if the same bullet / load could serve for both anti-materiel / HTI and African DG - such as the 305 all-brass "penetrator" one:

https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?_route_=all/458-xtreme-penetrator-305gr-bullet

.460 Wby mag on rabbits? Lol

P.S. Just found out that some countries allow 2 rifles, some 3, and some like SA allow 4...but as you say the airline may limit you to two. So which airlines allow 3? That's my question - I tried to look it up but can't find the answer - everything talks about the countries themselves but not the airlines.... I could narrow it to 3 pretty easily, but two would be tough. I don't want to use a .375 HH on a duiker any more than I'd want to use a .30-'06 on a kudu let's say. Sure you could, but it's far from ideal. I guess it's always tag / species-dependent in the end, of course, but my guess is I'll only be able to afford one trip in my lifetime, so want to make it count. I suppose if I could take 3 and only 3 rifles, AND was able to go after a wide variety of species, I'd take the 6.5x55, the .375HH (or a 9.3x62), and the .458 (leaving the .30-06 at home). Then I could "overkill" some stuff as needed with the .375 / 9.3, but still take it easy on my shoulder for the little gazelles up to bush pig & baboon with the 6.5x55 which is no slouch with a premium 142 or similar, the way I load them up.

.460 Wby and a wabbit.

Penciled right through?

He has other pictures showing messed up wabbits.

DF

For dangerous game I would use the 450gn TSX. If the ranges were extended because of gully's or open area's I'd start the debate with a 350gn TSX and follow up with 450's as I walk up to the taxidermy project before me.

The 400gn was the best of the best in Barnes X bullets but obviously more people made decisions from 2nd hand information otherwise the 400 grainer would still be on the shelves.
John

No,there is a bigger hole on the other side.

400 grain Speer at 2500 fps.

You hit that last one a little far back.....................

Gerry35 just a hare back.

400 grain Speer at 2500 fps.


Where the bullet connected.

"The 400gn was the best of the best in Barnes X bullets"

That would be so perfect. Really too bad. Now for me, it's between the 400 A-Frame and 450 TSX.

His PH was on his left shoulder with a big gun......……......just in case a quick follow-up was needed to subdue a charge.

The PH has a .577 T-Rex.

Lucky for you !!!

Terrible pun.......outstanding lol.

Thanks.

A couple of comments.

Do not take more than two rifles. You'll just get confused at the wrong moment.

Do not take more than one weight of bullet in a .458. My Model 70 shot 6" different in elevation at 100 yards with 350 and 450 TSXs, which I think was due to recoil while the bullet was in the barrel. The 350 grain TSXs were going 2700 fps and the 450s were going 2200 fps. The only way to get the same POI was to slow them down to the same velocity as the 450s, and there's no point in that.

The 450 grain TSX works fine with buffalo. You should probably also take some 450 grain solids for the second or third shot. Ask your PH.

Don't worry about getting "a little" extra velocity or slightly smaller groups. Instead, practice shooting off sticks.

I experimented with 350 grain TSXs and don't think it matters what crimping groove you use. Just make sure they fit in the magazine. 2200 fps with a 450 grain bullet works just fine. Don't overthink things.

I took a Cape buffalo and a bull elephant with a .458 on my first trip to Zimbabwe. The second trip I took a Cape buffalo and elephant with a .375. I don't think it made any difference.

Don't worry about compressing powder. That's an old wives' tale. For years I shot the 1000 yard matches at Camp Perry with compressed loads. It gets hotter at Camp Perry in August than it does during most of the hunting months in southern Africa.

Ken,
That bullet often blew up in a puff of blue smoke before reaching the 100 yard targets for me so although I used it a lot in the .45/70, stopped short of using it in the .460 after gutting several animals with it, if it reached them that is.
John

I consider the 400 grain Speer a varmint bullet in the .460. It was only going 2500 fps at the muzzle and that rabbit was @75 yards away. I would not use them for anything bigger than rabbits or coyotes and not any faster than 2500 fps.

I'm going to try the 350 grain Speer in my .460 in the not too distant future to see what they do at 2600+ fps.