Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .458 Win in Africa??

Actually, I purchased my CZ in .458WM because that's what I wanted. The dealer had both (.458 Lott and .458WM).

What I have found in these types of discussions about the .458 WM vs .458 Lott, is that few are listening anyway. On AR, I gave about 10 reasons for choosing the .458WM over the Lott, and pointed out that I have a Lott anyway in my Win Mag with the long box and freebore, and have explained all that here and on AR (as well as my manual) but people (like Ray) just keep on talking as though nothing was posted to correct/change their ATTITUDE! Because that's what it is.... an ATTITUDE!

Ray is vociferous about people being stupid enough to buy a .458WM when they could have a Lott for $75 more, and defend their baby! But he never checks a reloading manual which shows 50 to 75 fps difference, and in Barnes manual #4, the Lott has as many, or more, compressed loads (with the same app. PSI) as the Win Mag!

I got mine in Win Mag because that's what I wanted: ammo and brass is MUCH cheaper, and more available, here in Ontario than for the Lott. Need I go on?

I'm convinced it's a waste of my time.

BTW, Ray, I'm your age, so I can talk to you like a brother and not a son...


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

There is nothing wrong with the Lott but it is not the super round it's fans claim. A lot of folks confuse size with performance but exerience has a way of dispelling that myth.

Those claiming that a 458 is ineffective with a 500 grain bullet and then claiming that the 458 Lott is, simply need to be pittied as they have taken leave of the sense's

IIRC there is quite a difference in the freebore of WM's and Lotts depending on whether SAAMI or CIP. WinMags (SAAMI and CIP) have a very long funnel shaped throat that can't be good for accuracy with shorter bullets. The SAAMI Lott throat is tighter and much shorter. If buying a new rifle, I would go for the shorter throat.

Found the thread over on AR-
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/9201027511?r=9201027511#9201027511

One of the reasons I want to do the Win Mag is to do some cast bullet loads (ought to be dynamite on elk in the timber). I could do cast loads in the Lott but for that purpose the Win appeals to me more. And you know if I had the Win & went to Africa it would have to go with me. Hence asking about loads for Africa.

I think I'm going back to the 308 vs 30-06 vs 270 discussion......

Wouldn't the shorter throat of the SAAMI Lott give better accuracy with cast bullets than the longer throat of the WM?

Gentlemen,
For those that have a problem with the tried and proven .458 Winchester, there is another option not included in the discussion. It is called the .460 Weatherby MAgnum which can be handloaded with the bullet of your dreams to your own recoil tolerance.

The words "develops excess pressure in tropical climates" need never be spoken again. It is an obsolete and conquored issue.
JW

Of nine handloads for my CZ550 in .458WM, the average accuracy is MOA. One of those 9 is a hardcast 465gr at 2260 fps and it shoots into 1.37". Most of the monos and jacketed shoot between 3/4" and 1". That includes the 350 Hornady, 405 Remington, 450 -X and 500 Hornady RNSP. My favorite is the 350 TSX which shoots MOA at 2750 fps.

The 350 Hornady is a reduced load at 2112 fps and there is also a reduced load for the 405 Rem at just over 2000. Another load for the 405 Rem leaves at 2400 fps. It goes 1 1/4 MOA. The 450-X is 3/4" at 100 yds.

My CZ has a magnum-length box and app. 3/4" freebore.

I can only speak of my rifle, and accuracy isn't a problem whether lobbing 350s at .450 Marlin speeds or 500s at Lott velocity.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I think both Indy and JPK have given the loads they've used, and have given the results they were looking for from good charges of AA2230 behind 450 TSX's, North Forks and Barnes Banded as well as 500 Woodleighs.

I've only been to Africa once and never used a .458 of any persuasion while there. Used my son's 12-gauge with Brennekes. My CZ is used in North American hunting (moose and black bear)and as a test platform to provide material for my manual and blog. Using 450s and 500s over suitable doses of H335, It does not lack in ballistics suitable for the largest and meanest that Africa has to offer.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Yep, there's the 460, then there's the rest...jorge

I didn't know that "excess pressure in tropical climates" ever did need to be spoken.

This isn't 1950 any more. It gets no hotter in Africa during the times when most elephant are taken than it does in Ohio or Maryland in August. In fact, it probably gets a good deal hotter in the US Southwest during deer season. Yet nobody worries about excessive pressures because we aren't shooting Cordite!

Read CZ550's post. The Barnes manual shows as many "excess pressure" loads for the Lott as for the .458 WM and all for a velocity difference that is irrelevant.

According to Kevin Robertson, in his book, "The Perfect Shot," the .460 actually penetrates less with solids than the "lesser" .458s because the higher velocity causes more yawing. Also the rifles built for it usually are heavier and there are only two shots in the magazine. Many have muzzle breaks but who want to substitute ear damage for bruised shoulders?

Well will all due deference to Kevin Roberton (and who am I to dare say that!)I've read his books and theories and I don't agree with him. That older "slower is better" theory might have been true with traditional cup and core bullets and old fashioned solids, but with today's monometal solids, the 460 outpenetrates them all. I can't recall the testing protocol, but the 460 was the penetration king. jorge

jorge,
Interesting observation. The developer of the new Woodleigh monolithics passed them onto a buffalo hunter who tested them on Asiatic buffalo. The 378Wby in his opinion just stepped up into a new league.
Cheers...
Con

That has been the most vicious recoiling rifle I have ever shot in my life.

Incidentally, the owner of the local gunshop here in town just killed an emormous Brown bear with a 378 (braked, puzzy!)and a 300gr TSX. Madea bad shot too, angling forward through the guts and came out in the chest area. Bear was estimated at 24yrs old. Dropped him and the guide says he's never seen so much damage inside. With today super premiums give me as much WEIGHT AND SPEED as I can handle. jorge

Not a bad shot with a proper bullet, like a TSX

"That has been the most vicious recoiling rifle I have ever shot in my life."

Interesting isn't it? The .375 H&H is often described as having surprisingly mild recoil, but bump the powder charge & velocity up with the big .378 case and suddenly those same bullets are producing a lot more Ouch on the shooter... All that changed was powder charge & velocity!

Recoil can be tamed dramatically by changing stock design and/or weight and by adding such things as mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestors or even those nasty muzzle brakes...... I hunted with a guy some years ago who shot his 458 Lott (with Lott rounds) off of sticks and he didn't even bother putting his left hand on the rifle at all..... Turned out he had 3 mercury tubes in it.

My .500 (now) has one in it and also a good stock design and felt recoil isn't much more than a .375 H&H. Before I made the addition, it damn nearly tore me in two.

So the next time you reluctantly start to think about selling a loved rifle because of the recoil, maybe consider a change of stock or the addition of a mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestor or two.