Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .458 Win in Africa??

444afic,

Yeah, all powder do gain in pressure and hence velocity in ambient temperatures over 70 degrees, but the question is whether the pressure gets high enough to be a problem. And modern powders (especially the latest ones) tend to gain a LOT less pressure than the ones that caused problems in "tropical heat" so many years ago.

One of the other constant rumors we hear is that the .416 Remington Magnum is prone to develop too-high pressures in very hot weather--especially factory ammo. Well, I tested some .416 factory ammo from around 1990 and some very recent stuff on a 95-degree August day here in Montana. Just to be sure the ammo and rifle were good and hot, I left the rifle in the sun between shots, and put a number of rounds inside a plastic bag (greenhouse effect) with a small thermometer. The temperature of the ammo got up to 110 degrees, whereupon I shot it without a problem. As I recall both the old and new stuff gained maybe 50 fps in velocity, and I could open the bolt with my little finger. Muzzle velocities were right where they should be, 2400 fps or a little more.

I haven't fooled with the .458 much, but did get a barrel fitted to an FN Mauser action and will be trying it this next summer. My guess is that all the old problems were just that, caused by ammo that lay around for years in really hot buildings until the powder congealed. I am going to try to get some AA2230 but am alos going to try Ramshot TAC, which I suspect might be a real good one in the .458.

Another modern powder that might work very well is Varget. Hodgdon lists 2152 fps with the Hornady 500-grain at only 48,000 CUP. Varget is the original Extreme powder from Hodgdon, so in theory anyway should be very good in hot weather. It is als a extruded powder, and I've never had the slightes problem with compressed loads of extruded powders--well, except for having to jump up and down on the press handle now and then to seat a bullet, or having the same bulet push its way forward back out of the case after a day or two. But I've never had a pressure problem with any compressed load of extruded powder (the problems with the old factory .458 loads were with ball powder) so will see what happens.

I won't get into the interesting 458 debate as I would be in over my head. However, this quote is very misleading to anybody who would draw the logical inference that comes from the statement. For those who are reading who are less knowledgable this should be clerified. Just because one caliber has a lower recoil than another doesn't mean every shooter shooting the gun with lower recoil will shoot more accurately than someone else who is shooting a gun with higher recoil. I see people flinch shooting guns with neglible recoil all the time. I also see people shoot high-recoiling shoulder cannons as if they were .22s.

JB, While you are doing the 458 tests, I would be very interested to see how Reloader 17 works in either the WinMag or Lott. Have seen Quickload data for the Lott and it looked interesting. Ran 80 gns Re17 behind a 450 TSX at 3.60" oal in a 458WM CZ550 with the long mag box with no pressure signs, but it was too late in the day to get a chrono reading. According to the quickload data I saw that should have been a mild Lott starting load but haven't had a chance to work with it any further.

Disclaimer- Alliant said they have no Re17 data for the WinMag or Lott, and even though that load did not cause a problem in my rifle I cannot guarantee it will be safe in any other.

Mule Deer,

I tried Varget with high hopes. It didn't work out in my rifle, at least not nearly as well as AA 2230 or even H 4895. Don't have my notes, but iirc, it peaked at about 2150fps or so (26" barrels) and was very dirty with lots of unburned powder in the barrels. Was bulkier than AA 2230 as well, iirc. My read is too slow.

Might want to try H 335, or if you are looking for an Extreme extruded powder, then maybe Benchmark or H 322.

JPK

JB, my apologies for referencing only a portion of your work. I mentioned the 308 factory load as a sample of one (I say a sample of one because I stopped shooting after the blown primer!), that loads that work fine at normal temperatures can at least occasionally exhibit excessive pressure at higher ambient temperatures. Personally, I would be leery of loading a DG cartridge to high pressure without testing if it is to be used in Africa, but that is not necessarily an indictment of the 458 Win.

JV

So, can we assume you'll be using a lead sled for load development?

JPK,

Thanks for the info on Varget. What primer did you use? Benchmark does look like another possible choice.

The reason I am going to try Ramshoit TAC is that it has a very simlar burning rate to H335--but is temp-resistant and MUCH cleaner burning. I have had excellent luck with it in a wide variety of cartridges, especially where powder space is at a minimum.

doubletap,

Oh yeah, a Lead Sled will be deployed....

I used Federal 215's.

Never thought of Ramshot TAC. Hmmm...

FWIW, I tried the AA 2230 in cool and in hot temps, about 50*F and about 100*F, leaving the ammo and the rifle in direct sunlight on the hot day until they were thouroughly heated through and uncomfortably hot to hold and I saw no velocity increase that caught my eye. I didn't run long strings and average them out, but any notable delta was lost in round to round, barrel to barrel variance.

JPK

Tonk,

Sorry, I forgot to post the charge weight. I was using 78.0 grains (every shot weighed) of AA2230 with 500 grain Barnes banded solids and F215 primers.

If you try the Hornady load, I would start about 70 or 71 grains and work up a bit at a time. I definitely found that 78 grains was way over maximum in my particular rifle.

Ray,

I suspect that your PHs who experienced lack of penetration, assuming compaction was the problem, were using ammo that was laying around in the sun too many years, maybe even getting wet in the process. Certainly I have never experienced a problem with loads a little over 100% load density, regardless of caliber. Many of the Lott loads are 105% "compacted."

But something has occurred to me. The reason why AA2230 is such a good powder for the .458WM, in my opinion, is that it is much denser than extruded powders like Varget, H4895, etc. But that means it has less space between the grains (balls). High loading density COULD therefore cause more of a problem getting the stuff pasted together though, if this actually ever happened, I suspect it is a Winchester QC problem.

Incidentally, I always load my ammo for any hunting trip within a month of starting the trip. Where I keep my ammo and powder, it is reasonably cool and not humid.

I have some Winchester .458 factory loads from the early 1960s. When I get a chance (you won't find me on the range in freezing weather) I'll shoot them and see if anything bad happens.

Big Sky,

On the contrary.

I have held a Master card in NRA High Power competition since 1961. Lower recoil fosters better accuracy for any particular individual. David Tubb reported that he picked up one point when switching from a .308 to a 7mm-08 in silhouette competition for this reason. In Service Rifle competition, the AR15 came into popularity in the mid 1990s and ever since the M1A does not win the championships, due to the lower recoil of the .223 round vs. the .308 round.

I've often thought that the excellent big game reputation of the .375 H&H, or the 9.3x62, for that matter, might be due to the lower recoil compared with the .45s. Shooters can shoot them better. For me, a 500 grain bullet at 2200 is about as much as I care to take on. In fact, if I had to start over, it would probably be with a .416 and a 400 grain bullet.

Indy your last sentence regarding the 416/400gr selection is pretty much the conclusion I've come to. jorge

Today I ordered some AA2230 from where I bought my CZ 550 in 458WM. They get two shipments of AA powders annually. Next will be in April and my name will be on at least a couple pounds, just in time to escape the winter blahs and go to the range!

I've found H335 to be excellent in my CZ with 500s and 450s. Easily the best I've tried so far: better than AA2460 (slightly), H4895 (third best), IMR4320 (fourth), Varget (fifth), IMR4064 (sixth) and W748 dead last!

2200 fps from the 500 Hornady RN is easy with H335 and it's
proven to be consistent from lot to lot, and temp stable. Also, AA2460 will reach it with a couple more grains and slightly higher pressure, at least in my rifle. Those are at 3.34" COL. Loaded long, I can attain Lott speed.

TAC looks about the same in Barnes #4. In AussieLand H335 is 2206, I believe. It's a much better powder today than a few years ago.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I agree with you 100% and did not mean or attempt to assert otherwise. Your quote which I addressed made it sound like if I had a .308 and you had a .375, I would shoot more accurately than you. I don't believe that to be the case. However, I believe, based on how you said it, that would be the natural inference one would draw from your statement. I know my own limitations and don't know yours. It's entirely possible that you shoot more accurately with a .270 than I do with a .223. However, I agree that we would both shoot more accurately with the .223 than we would with the .270.

Once again, your quote implies that the one of you shooting the lower recoiling rifle will automatically shoot better than the other. I meant no ill will with my "correction" and pointed it out for the less experienced. I'm sure, based on your asserted credentials you would agree.

I've been a military firearms instructor for many, many years and I can with 100% confidence tell you that recoil affects everybody differently.

CZ5550,

Many powders are better than they were a few years ago, because of more competition. Hsve you noticed less powder fouling with H335/2206 in recent lots?

I've got a box of WW 510gr softs in the man cave and nothing to shoot them in!!! i gave a box to badger down at Mickey Colemans when we had our Campfire shoot a few yrs ago but don't know if he ever tested them.

May be time to build a heavy

Mike

IndyCA-35, thanks for the information, I will paste it in my Hornady manual for safe keeping. I will try that powder when the weather warms up a bit.

Bob,
I have long prefered and used 2206 (and 2207 which is H 4198 here) in Aussie for the .458's and since I have been in the US, I found that H335 and H 4198 are again still the favored choices.

One thing I did notice was a considerable increase in velocity when loads worked up in a couple of Model 70's with 22 inch barrels were fired in a CZ 550 with the longer barrel. Those extra inches made more difference that I eexpected in a .458 bore.

John