Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .458 Win in Africa??

Please allow me to clear up a few misquotes to my supposedly stated opinnions and please do not put words in my mouth...First of all I have never called anyone stupid, I may on a face to face situation call someone a dirty SOB but never stupid or ignorant, nor will I ever be rude unless attacked outright. I just don't do that..I supose some things I say are abrasive to those with a thin skin, and if so I apoligize profoundly.

Anything I say to you on these threads I would say to your face and listen to your reply. I enjoy discussing guns and balistics and I enjoy stating my opinnion and listening to yours and neither of us is required to change our minds unless we want to. It is really not that important, at least not to me.

What I will do is read each post carefully and take it into consideration what each person has to say, but I do not have to agree with it, I will state my opinnion just like those that disagree with me do..Lets keep it that way, and not be like some of the other blogs..

I am willing and ready to discuss any caliber but I will not change my mind unless I think you have come up with a better alternative and no one has yet convienced me the 458 Win. is a better choice than the 458 Lott for me..

I hold no ill will to those that prefer prefer the .458 Win. and I have stated it is a FINE CALIBER THAT KILLS WELL, so please don't acccuse me of that anymore..I have hunted with it quit a bit and yes it worked, as do several calibers that I am not particularly fond off and that describes the .458 win in my opinnion, I am not particularly fond of it.

I do believe in order to get the quoted balistics you have to go beyond 100% load density and you can if you wish, but I will not do that with a DG caliber. Check out the Swift manual for one on load density which is nothing more than a recipe for compaction and compaction is what has caused the black history of the .458 and if it was a 3" case, then you must agree that we would not be haveing this conversation. HMMMMM

I do believe the 458 should have been a 3" case and I don't see anything wrong with that idea.

I know that I can get 2300 to 2350 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet without compaction in the Lott, so its a better killer, am I not correct on this, it seems pretty basic to me.

I just cannot for the life of me understand why I am disagreed with this by some, and the reasoning given does not make since to me, thus my belief that folks that own a caliber tend to refuse it has short comings. Mostly I have seen this in the 45-70 and the .458 Win. Also in horses.:)

Sometimes from some folks I get the idea that they think I can be baffaled with BS. By the same token I take exception on the subject with folks that I have all the respect in the world for as to their opinnion and many of them post right here, but again am I required to agree, not likely pilgrim!

Give me a Lott any day.:)

Let me state once and for all, I have a world of respect for almost all you children on 24 hr. your the best out there.

Interesting.
Nice to see the 378 get a bit of respect for a change.

I have always though that the 378 with a 270gr TSX would make a heck of a plains game gun-though I don't suppose I will ever get the chance to try.
A guy can dream, though.

Ray,

I hate to rain on your parade but...

1. The fastest .458 Lott load listed by Barnes goes 2264 fps.

2. Barnes says that load has 105% load density.

Both 500 grain flat point solids.

Can you quote us some ACTUAL EXAMPLES of COMPACTED LOTT LOADS causing problems?

I didn't think so.

By the way...

The fastest .458WM load they list goes 2194 fps at 105% load density. Why so slow? Because they have listings only for some very oddball powders for the .458. No "normal" .458 powders like AA2230, H335, H4895 are shown.

But...that being the case, if there's some reason to prefer the Lott, it certainly has nothing to do with "compaction" or 2350 fps.

Can you quote us some ACTUAL EXAMPLES of COMPACTED WM LOADS causing problems?

I didn't think so.

By the way #2: Their Lott load uses 13 grains more powder than my 450 or 500 grain WM loads. This means that the Lott adds 18% recoil velocity (velocity, not energy) to my 450 grain North Fork solid load, without gaining anything in penetration. Guess who is going to shoot more accurately in the field?

Indy,

My man, you ask a question of me then you answer it, which is fine except you answered it wrong..

I will quote you some loads and I will also advise you that its very easy to get 2300 to 2350 FPS with the 458 Lott, apparantly your education with the Lott is limited somewhat! ..

I will also quote you those loads that are over Load Density or compacted if you will, and suggest that you read Rifle Magazine NO. 135, ".458 Lott" by G. Sitton, May-June 1991 if you can locate a copy. It is a revelation to some.

The only powder that I use is IMR-4320 and 84 grs. was my standard load and also the standard load for Jack Lott and Dave Miller and G. Sitton..Muzzle velocity will be from 2300 to 2350 depending on barrel length..In my 26 inch barreled guns I actually went up to 89 grs. and that was hot at 2501 FPS and primers were flat and I got an extractor mark, so I backed way off to the recommended 84 grs and mild pressure as suggested by Lott and the boys. Some use about .500 freebore with the Lott, but I have tried it both ways and unless you intend to really soup it up beyond 2300 then its not necessary and inasmuch as 2300 is about all the recoil I can stand, I settled on either 83 or 84 grs. depending on which gun...If I were building a Custom Lott then I would probably use .500 freebore..

I will quote you now some figures as per your request: 24" barrel
74.5 grs of H335 = 110% Load Density, 2110 FPS
71.0 grs. of H4895 = 104% Load Density 2112 FPS
73.0 grs. of RL-15 = 107% Load Density 2102 FPS
69.0 grs. of IMR-3031 = 101% Load Density at 2061 FPS
72.0 grs. of IMR-4895 = 106% load Density at 2114 FPS

This, my man, IS compaction as far as I am concerned, and this is why the .458 has been under the gun since its conception. Where there is smoke, there is fire..how else could all this come about? Its rep was challanged in Africa from problems that existed back when and still do if you push the string with the .458 Win. The recently dropped the enhanced .458 Ammo for that very reason, but that is the only cartridge they had to drop, go figure.


61.o grs. of RL-7 = 90% Load Density at 2037 FPS in a 24 inch barrel and this is the load and powder I have used to hunt with and it killed fine. but its not a that fast. Like I said the .458 kills good, it works, but its not efficient enough to suit me personally and I like a bit more velocity..

I hope I have answered your questions to satisfy you, but for some reason I doubt that my post is going to have much effect on you and those who honorably stand behind old Betsy!

I also realize that attacking the .458 or 45-70 is akin to incest with some, and for that reason I keep my horse tied out back for a quick get away, Adios, I'm outa here! yeehaw!









5

Obtaining 2300 fps out of a Lott is doable (but tough) so is obtaining 2100 plus out of a 458 Win Mag. Ostensibly the Lott gives you a 200fps difference. I don't care for either one personally, straight cartidges present a tougher feeding problem than the 450 Dakota (or Weatherby for that matter) and the 450 Dakota outperforms them both. For double rifles, I prefer straight rimmed cartridges than any of the three mentioned, but the bottom line is any of them are PLENTY for anything that needs putiing down in a hurry. jorge

+1....

jorgeI;

I like the idea of a 460 WBY; I've written so in my blogs. What for? I don't have a clue! But, if I were to think it necessary... for whatever reason... to go more than the 458WM, it WOULD NOT BE THE LOTT! Despite Ray's comments, which are sadly outdated, even with IMR4320, which is NOT the same as it was in his day, the LOTT is NOT 200 fps more than the .458WM with the same 500 Banded Solid by Barnes. Neither is the 500 Hornady... it goes 50fps more.

I've written before... and will mention it once again... In my CZ550 458WM, I can EASILY load it like a LOTT, because of the magazine box which allows 3.8" COL, and the freebore which allows that COL. That's .2" MORE COL than the Lott! So, there's no way the Lott with equal barrel length can give 200 fps more MV than MY CZ!!!

The most I've gotten from my CZ to date with a max COL from the Hornady 500gr is 2283 fps. I can push that a little bit more to perhaps 2300 fps, and I'm gonna try it one of these days when the snow melts. As a 458WM, with a COL of 3.34", I can easily obtain 2200 fps with the same 500gr Hornady. The difference in my rifle, so far is 2283 minus 2202 = 81 fps! That's in the ball park with Hornady and Barnes data.

And, I think Ray should check out recent data, especially using IMR4320 in either the Win Mag or Lott. It doesn't show very well.

What I said to this point doesn't even include AA2230. I have NO DOUBTS, it's THE powder for the Win Mag, and easily closes the gap between the two .458s to about 50 fps, or less, all else equal!!!

So, if I WANTED more than a .458WM, it wouldn't be the Lott! It would be the .460 WBY. And I could have that done in my rifle (CZ550)as the action and freebore allows it. But why???
I'm not interested in shooting a 460 WBY with a break! Or adding 3 lbs! Or shooting it at 458WM levels! Or injuring my neck, shoulders or hearing more than they are now, as I approach my 74th year in a couple of weeks. Over 100 ft-lbs of recoil, NO ONE NEEDS to kill whatever walks, flys, swims or slithers!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Some 458 Lott samplings out of credible folks:

Out of a CZ: I started at 81gr and went up 1gr at a time. Velocity peaked at 83gr (accurate data listed 86gr as max) with muzzle velocity at 2300fps. And a follow up: As a follow up to my initial post, I shot several loads over the chronograph today. The temperature today was in the 30's vs last Sunday in the low 50's and the velocity did not change more than a few fps. The 83gr load of AA2520 with a 500gr Hornady SP clocked 2307, 2301 and 2306 and went into about a 1.5" group. I loaded several loads with the 500gr Hornady solids as well and at 83.5gr of AA2520 the velocity was 2296,2297 and 2301. That 3 shot group went into 1". The only problem I need to work out now is that the solids shoot about 3-4 inches below the softnose.

And another one: I loaded just two rounds for each load tested Sunday (AA2520) and the widest spread in velocity was 11fps. At 83gr of 2520 the two rounds clocked 2296 and 2300. I think the chalenge is going to be getting the solids to shoot to the same or approx POI of the soft nose.

More: I use IMR4320 I get with solids 2360 FPS with SP bullets Iget 2280 FPS.

Don't have a dog in this hunt, but if I were to get a 45 it wouldn't be either one. jorge

It seems to me that simply confirms what I wrote above, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, and I follow the guy who wrote 2360 from solids with IMR4320. He writes a lot of stuff that's ???

I'm speaking of IMR 4320 today, NOT yesteryear. Buy a new can and try it...

For not having a dog in the fight, you seem to want to challenge those who do. As I said, if I wanted more, and I don't, it would be the 460 WBY, NOT the Dakota! The Dakota is a pretender

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I have two Winchester model 70's in .458 calibers! One has a 22 inch barrel and one has a 24 inch barrel. I will tell you that I have gotten a Max of 2010-fps out of the 22 inch barrel .458 using 500 grain bullets. The other .458 Win mag has done an honest 2105-fps Max load in 95 degree heat.

Hornady says the .458 Win mag with 500 grn bullet will do 2200-fps with a 24 inch barrel. Powder being AA2230 at 78.3 grains. I have never tried this powder in my rifles.

Now I also have a converted .458 Winchester model 70, that was turned into a .458-Lott......cost was $80 dollars 10 years ago. Now it to has a 22 inch barrel and the Max velocity has been 2210-fps using a 500 grain bullet. Hornady once again states MAX in their manual as being 2250-fps with 500 grn bullet using Win.-748 powder at 86.8 grains of powder. I thought in the beginning, that I could reach that 2300-fps bracket but no cigar.

I then turned all my attention to the .470-Capstick, which does indeed turn in 2340-fps out of my 24 inch barrel rifle, with 500 gran bullets and a heavy does of IMR-4320 powder, 89.5 grains. I was also under the impression that the .416-Weatherby was the penetration King!

Tonk;

I'll invite Indy to answer that one as he has a 22" M70 in .458WM and has easily obtained 2200 fps from 500s using AA2230!

And I believe him!

But my own experience, having not used AA2230 yet - and recent information from my supplier is that they still don't have it in - is that I've received 2200 fps from the 500gr Hornady RN from two ball powders at SAAMI COL - H335 and AA2460. I believe, and have yet to try it, that I can get more than that at 3.34" from the 500 Hornady and H335. I'll let you know.

What powders were you using in your Winchesters?

The late Finn Aagaard (former PH and gun writer - one of the best) got 2188 fps from Federal 500 factory loads in his 23" custom barrel. It had a short leade. From 4 other factory rifles with an average "freebore" of about .75" he received anywhere from about 2090 fps (M70, 22") to 2138 fps (24" Browning Safari). Those were Federal factory loads. Winchester and Remington were very poor (underloaded). In his custom, he said there were NO signs of undue pressure.

If we assume the Federal load was within SAAMI specs, then we also have to assume that 2188 fps from a (certain)500gr is legit from a 23" barrel.

As Aagaard pointed out, factory loads (generally), and handloads (generally)are very low pressure and underloaded. Until companies began to test the psi of their loads for the 458 WM, and publish the pressure, much of what was published in reloading manuals amounted to something far less than maximum loads. Olin published the CUP for their loads for the 510 SP and 500 solid, using W748, and they were about 40,000 CUP from a 24" test barrel going about 2040 fps! By the time those loads were shipped to dealers, and fired in 22" factory M70s, they were making less than 2000 fps! THIS AMMO gave the .458WM a reputation it didn't deserve!

If you load your rifles with the right components to near SAAMI psi, from a 24" tube, 2150fps should easily be within reach, and 2200 fps from some powders.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

On 458wm performance, especially with Winchester ammo, keep in mind that just three hunters killed over 15,000 elephants with the combo and none of them ever reported any problems. Two of them are rolific authors.

Richard Harlan, Ron Thomson, Paul Grobler. 458wm, Winchester factory solid loads, 15,000 elephants.

Add 100-200fps with today's powders and the 458wm only shines more.

Jorge, 2150fps with 500gr bullets out of the 458wm at less than 100% load density is actually easy to achieve. Just buy a can of AA 2230.

JPK

JPK.... one more that has over 6000 Mike Lagrange and he's still at it!

Well at some point, intelligent conversation becomes banter and all manor of contradictions arise and half truths become dominent, therefore lets just say that its best to agree to disagree...especially since I have contended from the very start that the .458 wasn't a good killer of anything, it is and I have said so repeatably, that was never questioned!

Hi, Ray,

You posted some load density data for the .458WM using several powders (though not AA2230, for some reason).

Would you mind telling us WHY you think that load densities over 100% cause any problems whatsoever?

In a gazillion years of handloading I have only had problems with powder changing its burning characteristics in the case a couple of times. Both cases were 30-06 reloads at about 75% loading density. You could hear the powder rattle if you shook the case.

Tonk,

One problem with the .458 WM is that some published data is suspect or just plain wrong.

You quoted Hornady about a 500 grain bullet using 78.3 grains of AA2230. I fired one shot with AA2230 (weighed) and a 500 grain Barnes monolithic solid. The chronograph showed 2376, the bolt was very hard to open, and the case showed an extractor mark. I fired no more shots using this load.

My guess is that this load is about 4 or 5 grains over maximum, no matter what Hornady says. Maybe the "8" is simply a typo.

INday,
I did not post AA2230 because I have not used it, maybe its the seventh sign, the holy grail of 458ism, but I doubt it....

It is pretty basic that over 100% load density is compaction, and its pretty basic that compaction is a blivet, that being 10 lbs. of s--t in a 5 lb. bag and that has caused more misfires in the .458 and partial misfires that effected penetration and thats how all this stuff got started with the .458 in the first place and I know of instances with some real well known PHs wherein they had penetration problems on elephants...It's been going on for ions now, both sides determined..

As for me, I surrender, I don't even care!!

I used to agree with this, but a few years ago in Arizona I had a primer blow on me with FACTORY ammo. I had to pound the bolt open with a block of wood, and have a gunsmith remove the enlarged case from the bolt face. The temperature was 101 degrees and the rifle a Remington 722 in 308 Win. No, the rifle does not have excessive headspace.

JB has written that he has yet to find a powder that doesn't increase in velocity and pressure over 70 degrees.

JV

I guess I will wait until summer and after getting my new "chrony" to run some more loads in those .458 model 70 Winchesters of mine. I was told by several people that I should use 450 grain bullets in the .458 mag but after getting the .470-Capstick together never really bothered. I will also try the AA-2230 and see if I can get 2200fps like the Hornady manual states at 78.3 grains using a 500 grain bullet.

Hornady has the .458 Win mag getting 2200fps with a 500 grn bullet and yet the .458-LOTT only reaches 2250fps, this seems a bit strange to me but I don't hunt elephants with either. I have always been told that the .458-LOTT is at least 100fps faster in velocity, so what gives gents?

Indy, how much AA powder did you use in that ONE LOAD you tried? Now was it in fact 78.3 grains or something else please? I myself would surely start far below that listing that Hornady gave but I would hope their listing was NOT a mistake. I have had barrels of different measure on the chrony as much as 120fps faster than another barrel of the same length and caliber, with the same load. I am going to call Hornady just to hear their explanation of the load listed in their 7th edition manual.

Indy,
My post was made tongue in cheek. If you turn the page in that Barnes #4 to the .460 you will see that I was asked to write the commentary for that cartridge becuase I have a fair understanding on what it will do. Australia gets just as hot as Africa which is why I "joked" about the "excess pressure" aspects.

Hope this clears up your concerns.

John