Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Why do we do this? Or, our elk hunt 2004

Ch, You make some interesting points, which should probably also be made to Charlie Sisk. Sounds like a very similar situation to Sheisters. If you read his post on buffalo hunting, you will see where it took repeated shots to take out a buffalo with a 458 Lott, including the first two shots going through the lungs. If I read it correctly, there were several more follow up shots needed by two people to bring it down. As you explain it, the 25 yards they were shooting at was too far and they almost certainly needed more practice at that distance, they were probably using the wrong bullets, were they sure the first bullets were in the lungs, etc, etc. etc..

Sounds earily similar to Sheisters situation so I am sure they could benefit from your tips, if you care to share with them. After all, anyone could be helped by someone with your extensive experience, pointing out where they went wrong! JMHO TM

travelingman1 --

If you would be so kind as to provide a link, I would be happy to read it.

TM--you promoting a spike elk to Cape buffalo? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Sheister, you had me weeping on the "Stooges Do Elk Recovery" part of the story. It's the dead ones that'll kill you.

Buffalo hunt at the Bar B under custom rifles. When you read it, you might think about just how much experience Charlie has and the guy who runs the ranch. My guess is they have a pretty good idea of what works on animals and what doesn't and as one of your earlier posts states, as an outfitter and custom rifle builder, they just might have seen/done a little more than you and might know a little about bullet placement too.
In this case, it took 7 shots from really big rifles to get the job done. In many ways it sounds very similar to Sheisters situation, except they were only 25 yards away when the shooting started.

Sometimes everything you KNOW TO BE TRUE can be made a lie by a stuborn animal. You might want to think of that the next time you try to tell someone who was there, where they have done wrong. Of course that is just my opinion and I could be wrong. TM

Steve, Nope, just pointing out that in one case, there were 8 shots fired before the animal was recovered. In the other 7 and they were using BIG guns. Coyotehunters premise was that it had to have been poor shooting, range estimation, etc. that caused the problem. Yet in Charlies case, they were only 25 yards away? If his logic applied to Sheister, it would appear to me that it should apply to Charlie as well but it is a lot harder to argue missed shots, etc. when the ranges are so close. Maybe, just maybe, the logic is wrong. JMHO

Sometimes animals that should be dead, simply do not die when we want them too, even with the best shot placement in the world and trying to second guess someone over the internet can easily lead to some very wrong conclusions.

JMHO TM

TM--I will stipulate that, when the metal hits the hair there is just no damn telling what's going to happen.

And suggest, without backup data (who needs that on the internet, right?) that far more hunters are done in by dead elk than by live ones.

One in particular nearly got his revenge on me in the Laramies, when we decided dragging the front half of a 6x6 a few hundred yards to a cliff and lowering him to the valley floor where we could get a vehicle in was better than dragging him a couple of miles uphill, or driving back to the ranch for horses and a trailer. Bad choice---rope was only long enough to reach half way down, so I had to climb down to a ledge, secure him there, and get the end thrown down to me to do the second leg of the drop. About three hundred pound of free swinging elk, with a 30 knot wind behind it tried to drive his top point through my ribcage, right over the heart. Thanks to lots of clothes, I only ended up with a bad stab and a huge bruise. I swear I can still see the old boy smirking at me--- I'm looking at him now over my fireplace.

Steve, That is exactly the point. Chit happens. It just bothers me when someone tries to second guess someone else based on what they just "know" had to have happened, when they were not even there. But as I have said before, that is just my opinion and we all know about those! (grin)

Glad you go the final revenge! TM

Coyote,

It appears we is still looking at the same car wreck and still thinking different drivers at fault!

I may have made some assumptions on this whole thing as well, so you may in fact be right, but I don't know that and neither do you at this point, only Sheister knows for sure.

I ASSUMED after 2200+ posts Sheister had probably heard of RANGE FINDERS, VARIOUS BULLETS and their respective pros and cons and yes even practice! But can't know for sure maybe he only posts and doesn't read <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The manner in which you decided to either inform or reinform him of those tenets, I found to be in bad taste, so thought perhaps you'd enjoy a bit of that medicine, since you think it goes down so well with other folks.

I'll take back that dla is a suckup (he's probably a standup guy) but post #4 on this board was about as condescending as it gets, THAT POST WAS A SUCKUP, maybe he's doing that instead of sending you flowers for all those other little spats you've had <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding, don't get wadded up.

Others have posted, even started a new thread as to the weird things some "dead" animals will do. I have seen such and it didn't surprise me. You on the other hand appeared to be shocked which can only lead me to the ASSUMPTION (that nasty word again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) that you are either a better shot than everyone else here, you use better bullets than anyone else here, or you have better mojo than most here, or that you haven't had such an experience so you assume there must have been operator error.

Anyway, sorry if I ruffled your feathers, there's a good deal of azzhole in my genetic makeup, you may have caught a view of that side of me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

But am laughing here, we got in all this tizzy about whether he made good shots or not......and still nobody knows but those that was there! When MuleyStalker touched upon the one thing I really could find fault with, that whole dang winchin' thang <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Just how much bigger is a spike elk than a good caribou bull? Seemed like two guys with backpacks woulda made it sooner and safer! But then look at the good story we'd a missed out on......so everthing has a purpose.

You're sticking to your guns and I'm sticking to mine, that's okay we ain't supposed to see everthing alike! Hope we can still be friends anywhow. Now PM me your addy and I'll send flowers! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding, whack another yote! I'll see what I can do about one or two of his bigger cousins in a day or two. 1ak

Works for me.

BTW, although it wasn�t taken that way, my original post was meant in a friendly way. Sometimes I�m not as tactful as I should be. The ensuing shiit-storm would have It would have been much worse had I been anywhere near as hard on Sheister as I am on myself.

travelingman1 -


Well, I read the post and, although there are indeed some similarities (multiple shooters and approximately the same number of shots), there are some glaring differences, too.

Can we ignore the obvious differences in body mass (2-1/2 to 4x) and metabolism and focus on the facts as presented by the respective writers?

At 25 yards, Sisk expressed no concern about the ability of members of his party to place the bullets properly. At that range I suspect the first two shots went through the lungs as claimed, and I suspect (although we don�t know) that most of the others were on the mark as well. We also know that the recovered Barnes �X� bullets expanded as desired. We know there were 6-7 shots and the bull went 75 yards, not 200.

Sheister, on the other hand, wasn�t sure if the range was 350 yards or 400. With my 7mm Mag loads there is a difference of 8� between the two, and I would expect similar differences with a .300H&H or .338. Sheister expressed doubt that his son could make the shot. Sheister also expressed doubt that HE could make the shot. We know that Sheister claimed the first two shots went through the lungs, but Sheister refused to say how he knows that. We know there was another volley (shots 3 and 4) immediately following the first, with no indication where the shots hit or (IIRC) if they hit at all. Nor is there any indication of where or if shots 5 and 6 landed. Sheister hinted that shot #7 missed and 8 hit, but again no indication of where. We know the spike went 200 yards after the first volley of 4 shots.

Again, I�m a believer in the �shoot until they are down� philosophy. Sisk and group did this, as did Sheister and son. The difference is that I doubt Sisk and group missed many at 25 yards, while there is lots of room for doubt in the case of Sheister and his son � and especially about the son - as expressed by Sheister himself.

CH, You know, somehow I did not think you would get it. But it is apparent you know when your right and others are not and there is nothing I or anyone else can say that would change your mind. Enjoy your life. TM

Frankly, I am just impressed as can be about the toughness of that spike elk... to make it as far as he did with half his drive train shot from beneath him... ;-)
art

Apparently it was from the planet "Krypton". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quick story on how tough Elk are. Last year I downed a 5x5 bull here in Montana, he came down the mountain and I caught him in a clearing about 120yds-+ out, he saw me and took off, I lead him and shot 3, 30-06 180gr branes xlc's at him. He never flinched or anything and ran right into the woods. I shoot alot and knew in my heart that I had hit him so I went over and looked for blood. Guess what? Nothing not a drop, So I started tracking him thinking how could I have missed? About 250 yds into the woods I came up on a huge splatter of blood were he had coughed it up and followed a now amazing blood trail from there until I caught up with my now dead elk (another 200+ yards) I had hit him with all three bullets, 2 lungs 1 liver and no passthrough, recovered 2 of the bullets with wide open petals. Now all I can say is that's one tough elk and now I'm wanting a bigger gun. Maybe a 340 because I like exit wounds and I do not like to chase wounded Elk.

Ask any experienced archer how far a critter can go with a hole in both lungs. Sometimes, it's pretty amazing. If the shock from a bullet doesn't have the usual effect for whatever reason, they can go a pretty fair distance until their bodies finally give in.

I'd also suspect from my rather limited experience with big game that "where" in the lungs can effect how fast an animal goes down as well.

Just some things to chew on.....

Speaking of chewing on: CH, you really brought the dogs on yourself. I understand you have a big problem admitting that and though you pretended to, your "Krypton" comment makes it obvious you didn't mean it in the least. Think a bit next time before you jump on the pulpit.

BTW, I'm guilty of it myself from time to time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />!

MTMpoar
About 4 years ago I took a huge old elk......ranch owner estimated over 1000 pounds.....I didnt know elk got this big....At 22 yards, two shots from a 338 ... 225 Partitions broadside....after about 4 or 5 minutes he staggered, then went down.....kept trying to get up.....another broadside at about 5 feet.....I recovered two of the bullets, butcher ran meat saw through the other...
Charlie

Whew, that was a good read! Sheister, I'm referring to your post firstly. Great hunt and it's something I dream about doing with my own sons, when they're old enough. I'm neither a CSI nor a magazine editor so I won't comment on 'dotting the i's and crossing the t's'. Bottom line is that you got that meat into the freezer. To me, that's success and congratulations for that and sharing your story.

Coyote Hunter, ten out of ten for a great bitch session!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hey, we wouldn't have 'campfire forums' if it weren't for differing opinions! You make some very valid points but perhaps unfortunately so given the manner in which they were received. Thankfully, we ARE all on the same side here, I think! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Charlie reminded me of a runaway longhorn steer gone wild that I watched take two 338 cal 210 grain bullets in the "perfect" spot, in the crease behind the foreleg and about a third the way up while broadside. Exits on both shots and that steer stayed on his feet for over 10 minutes before finally tipping over.

Another example of things sometimes defying logic. Anyway, sorry, I'll stop belaboring the point......

Bighammer, good to see some auzzies on board. Lay some
hunting stories on us from your part of the world. Love to hear them.

I couldn't resist, but have to admit I regretted it almost as soon as I posted it.

I'm off the soapbox now, though.