Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Rimfires My life with CBs

Didn't I read somehwere that a fella had shot hundreds of moose over a lifetime with his 22? No kidding.

Dphar, I am not questioning your experience.

I will say this: #1) One sample size does not indicate a trend. #2) the 4" barrel and the cylinder gap on a revolver may really have been the cause of your grief. Serious pressure loss right there. Dunno, just sayin.

Moose I don't know about, but there was a very large bear killed some years back by a woman with a .22 RF. One of the largest as I understand it. Don't think I'd want to visit that scenario myself.

Dan, I dunno what occurred with your beaver. It has been my observation that different animals have different architecture and I don't know anything about the 4 legged beaver. Mountain sheep have skulls which present a tremendous amount of bone around the brain so I'm fairly certain there could be a problem there too, perhaps even with CF rifles at an odd angle. I bounced a bullet from a .30-30 off a hog's forehead some years ago and she survived it to die another day. With that said, everybody has their own litmus on this subject and I don't recommend what I'm doing to anyone. Just passing along my experience.



All true, and it is an interesting read. See my comment about tightly laced tennis shoes. 67 hogs took one shot, one took two. Something is working. It is my opinion, as a result of this experience, that terminal ballistics may be one of the most poorly understood facets of the shooting sports. However, if one discards power for patience and precision, the standard is far less forgiving of error. Of that I am quite certain.

Are the CBs you talk about pointed? Any links you can provide?

thanks

Josey, no, they are current production ammo produced by CCI. They are from all appearances the same as a short but do not have quite so large a powder charge. I believe the ones you refer to are properly called CB Caps as opposed to CB Shorts.

CB Shorts: http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0026

CB Caps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_CB_cap

FWIW, the market production of reduced loads (quieter) has grown greatly in the last few years and aside from the European production of BB and CB Caps, Winchester, Remington, CCI and probably some others are producing a wide array of "CB" ammo and other subsonic ammo. So far as performance, the LR based versions will likely provide better penetration if they are a RN form and not hollow point. The noise associated with any of this ammo is directly related to barrel length.

Bottom line is the bullet struck exactly as aimed and DID NOTHING aside from making a white mark where it skipped off. I have never had a 22LR or a 22 WMR preform in this manner, they ALWAYS WORK.
In a situation like this there are only two valid outcomes, works or does not work. If it does not work ONCE that is all that matters. It then is unreliable and thus is a waste of time, energy and money, this was a commercial enterprise not sport. It payed the bills. Using a CB cap simply meant it cost twice the time and money to kill the beaver over using the LR in the first place.
The beaver was supposed to drown and did not. Any beaver alive in the trap may possibly escape (we were getting 40-50 bucks for blankets at the time). They also tend to turn and face the trapper and thus the frontal shot is the only viable option in many cases.
There was no justification for trying it again.

Dan

Dphar, did you quit using those traps?

Dan, asking for clarification: Were you using CB "caps" or "shorts"? You used both terms yet they are quite different cartridges. CCI's introduction of the CB Long is fairly recent, sometime around 2007 if I recall correctly.

Dan the Other

According to CCI both are loaded to the same velocity with the same bullet.
I was using the long version and the beaver were paying for the birth of my son who is now 23.
I also seriously doubt that they were loaded to 710 fs as the current crop is though they might have been since this is what Barnes lists in my old (1980s) version of "Cartridges of The World". He also notes that both the long and short case versions were being produced and as I recall both appeared here at the same time circa early 80s.
I tried them because they were quiet and in this case I was doing control work near the land owners house.

Dan

It appears some instruction is required.

The trap was not at fault. In fact the trap performed flawlessly. I was forced by circumstance to set a trap in a spot where I was afraid the beaver might not drown, but the beaver had to die regardless, it was pest control. So it was MY fault not that of the trap. Just like it was my fault I used the CB cap.
Beaver escape traps in two ways, they may pull out if the trap is weak, is not set just right, the water level changes after the set is made or they just happen to step a little wrong, the planets line up wrong many reasons. Front feet are easy to hold but somewhat fragile if the beaver does not drown. This why drowning is preferred and works in the vast majority of cases. But sometimes it does not. Sh*t happens. So sometimes they get whacked with a stick or shot with a gun depending on the situation.

Shooting hogs with CB caps.
My view.
I could not care less if a hog gets someone down and scatters their guts in the bushes, especially if I don't have to witness or smell it. Will not change my life in the slightest, in fact if they get killed before they reproduce it leaves more room for my descendants so its a "win" for me in some ways. One of those Darwin Award things I guess. I personally would not want to be ate by hogs but, hey, lots of folks have weird fantasies I guess.
Someone can "get by" with things in potentially dangerous situations for long periods of time and then one day the factors all stack right and they die.

One of my fathers "American Folk Sayings" is "he went to sh*t and the hogs ate him". Doubtless he got this from my grandfather, HIS father raised free range hogs in post Civil War Arkansas. Makes one wonder where this quaint little saying originated.
There is an excellent write up in "Pondoro" by John Taylor concerning killing African Elephant in the 1930s with a smooth 10 bore percussion gun. He never lost an animal shot with it, "13 good bulls" and several Rhino. But he stated that he would not have wanted to face a charge with it.
Folks that hunt hogs with popguns might want to consider this statement.

Do I sound a little cranky?
I am, I have hunted since I was old enough to cock a BB gun in the late 50s. I passed on a personal experience that I thought was relevant to the discussion. People immediately want to poke holes in it, tell me I didn't know what cartridge I used or make smart assed remarks so as to justify behavior that I and apparently some others here view as at least risky.

Dan

So how are the three of you doing?
Good info Dan. Several things I wouldn't personally try but "facts is facts" and yours are very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

Nope, this is all good. Discussing important stuff like this keeps me sane.

Hey, I have a beaver skull at home. Found a dead beaver in the swamp last year while deer hunting. Saved the skull because my family and I are a bunch of biologists (parents by education).

I am curious how thick the area is between the eye sockets. Will take a picture tonight.

Nobody was making SA remarks or implying you didn't know which way was north. Nor am I trying to justify anything.

It wasn't clear to me what ammo you used due to mixed terminology, that's all.

My comment was smartass indirectly (where is that poking stick smiley)...not intended to anger Dan but get him talking and continue the conversation. I was pretty sure if he used a CB on a beaver the trap worked but it was not set where the beaver would drown on purpose.

I don't trap but I researched it a few months because our private lake has a serious beaver problem along with nutria. We are not allowed to shoot firearms in the County, it's all private waterfront so I can't set traps anywhere but my small area, dogs are everywhere and I cannot draw my Hoyt with my current RC tears.

I have been night hunting with a Primos light trying to thin them out, I have to be very careful since my neighbors are close and I have a very limited area I can shoot safely. The very reason I use CB's. I am positive I have hit 10-15 beaver in the head and they have slapped the water and resurfaced forty yards away. I think a few probably made it to the lodge and died.

On the other hand, I am not having any issues taking out nutria at 15-25 yards with headshots, probably 20 in the last six months, I have found plenty of floaters. I am saying I believe I am hitting my target.

The single beaver I recovered was shot in the spine and imobilized, I had to go back and get my Hoyt to finish her off. A fat 45 pounder and the skull is in the freezer. I plan to boil and bleach it soon.

Since that first beaver, I have thought the CB may not be punching through and after looking at the skull, it does appear pretty thick. I have not had many shots lately but I don't think between the eyes or top of the skull are going to work well on the fat bastards. It looks like shots from behind at the base of the skull and into the spine would be best or in the ear.

I was raised in N. FL and grew up hunting in hog country. The woods and swamps here were loaded with them. I also used to shoot them with a .22LR RF in the head. Solids worked very well, HP not as well. One particular time my son shot one in St. Marks NWR in the head, we found some blood but no hog. It was a big hog and I think it flattened out without penetration. So yes a .22RF will kill a hog, I would recommend using solids.

It is surprising what you can do when you don't know you can't.

Well, I didn't really see it that way but I suppose perception is 99% of reality. Sounds like beavers have harder noggins than hogs though. One of the things I do with this, implied but not clearly stated earlier, is aim for the target, not the piece of hide overlaying it. By that I mean if I'm going for a cervical shot, I am aiming for vertebrae. Not sure that makes sense, but in essence I am aiming for the system I want to disrupt. Brains, not foreheads?

So far as bullets bouncing off, the reports I've read of various .22 RF bullets bouncing off of critters are numerous. Some I don't give credence and others I do. The event I told earlier about the .30-30 bouncing off tells me that if you have a shallow enough impact angle, anything is possible. If I'm shooting one today with the CB I wait for as near as perpendicular as possible between skull and bullet path for this reason. Such angles can be had if a hog is feeding, or if they are aware of you, they will alternate between looking at you over their nose (raised) and then lowering their snout nearly to the ground for a brief moment. If I don't get that presentation, I don't shoot.

Actually you sound "a lot" cranky! Which turns me off sir. Makes me want to totally blow off and ignore everything you say as irrelevant to this particular thread. You disagree with someone? Fine. But as pointed out, "one experiment" does not a conclusion make! Now if you had tried dispatching several beavers, with more powerful backup ammo in the other cylinders - and more recent than 24 years ago, then maybe "your point" would be worthwhile. You're not much of a scientist or statistician? Are you?

Digital Dan writes about his expeiences, with humor and toungue and cheek. His style. I'll take what D-Dan says with a little (tiny bit) grain of salt, but so far his "experiences" seem consistent to me, and my more limited experiences shooting CCI CB ammo and a few Remington CeeBee's that were discontinued, then started again recently. Haven't tried any since R-P resumed production.

My interest in shooting CB ammo isn't to dispatch hog, sine we don't have hogs in the North Wett. But "CB's" and CCI .22Short Target loads are part of my kit!

Digital Dan's experiences and writings are invaluable, in my opinion. I agree there should be a sticky on this thread! And many other D-Dan's threads regarding specialty .22 shooting and ammo choices.

Digital Dan: Thank you VERY MUCH for sharing your experiences, and also your whit and style.

DING DING DING! You got it Dan. OK here is a picture of a Beaver skull that I mentioned earlier. That sucker is as flat as could be, ESPECIALLY between the eye sockets. Don't know how well you can tell in the pic, but trust me, that area is flat. If the rascal was looking straight at you, I can guarantee a glancing hit. If you were aiming from above the beaver's head, I am convinced it would kill him at said range with said kit gun.

BTW, nobody here is wanting to get into a pissin match, so no need to get defensive about your single (1 sample) experience. <grin>.

Oh, one other thing, the skull has good mass with good support from the inner bones of the eye sockets where the bullet was said to glance off.

I dispatch (OK, kill) varmints in my "live" trap in my yard on a pretty regular basis (I have chickens). I get above the head, and shoot down.

I'm also a big fan of CB's. I tend to use CCI Longs because that's what's available locally. About a year ago, I bought a Paco Tool and give the bullets a minor resizing. This improves groups and the slightly dished-faced bullet seems to hit a little harder. The Paco kit also contains a punch which creates hollow points, but I've found this to be a waste of time on CB's. The hollow points won't expand no matter what you shoot them into.
I mostly use CB's on pests raiding my vegetable garden and 20 tropical fruit trees. My "hate meter" registers as follows:
Cottontail rabbits send me into a wall-eyed rage. If one appeared in my yard while I was talking to a leggy young PETA volunteer named Jill at my front door, I'd still grab my rifle and begin pinging away instantly.
Raccoons. I don't really get any pleasure from trapping and shooting every one that I see, whether they are causing problems or not, but I still do. It's just something that must be done. Sooner or later, they will begin causing problems.
Possums. I generally leave them alone until certain fruit become ripe and they start raiding.
Armadillos. I ignore them until they take to rooting in my vegetable garden. Then, they get whacked. They're welcome to root in my lawn without retaliation.
Feral cats. No problem. Nobody feeds them. We only have a few here, and who knows, they might be killing rats and mice out there at night. Go for it, kitties!
I live in a rural area in Florida, and we certainly have wild hogs here. I sometimes see them on my morning runs, and some of my neighbors have had them rooting in their yards, but they haven't come on my property yet. When they do, the war begins.
The great thing about my neighborhood is anybody can fire large weapons anytime they want, and nobody complains. It happens all the time. Even though I've been assured that nobody would get angry if I controlled my nocturnal pests with something louder than a .22 CB, I have too much respect for my neighbors than to disturb their slumbers in the middle of the night.
We're just one big redneck family around here!