Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Model 70 vs Mauser 98?

Is there a big difference between them for a custom dangerous game build?

This should be good.

Yeah...I might " wait and watch" this before I put in my 2 cents...but first I think I better go make some popcorn...


Ingwe

both of them are in common use and well proven. The Winchester has better off-the-shelf capability to accept various long magnum cartridges, but proper magazine boxes are readily available for the Mauser.

The biggest differences functionally is that the Mauser has better gas shielding and a better designed extractor.

Mod 70?...PFeed or CRF??

CRF all the way, if you can.

The recoil lug is better designed on the model 70. It is longer and locks up from behind permitting a 100% floating barrel after bedding.

JW

M70 pre 64 or classic? And how about the Dakota 76?

No difference.... they have both worked for a long, long time.

The Dakota 76 is hands down the best you can find if you are worried about how the action sheilds for gas, a vary fine adaption of the pre-64 with much better design functions than the mod 70 pre-64. I have a lot of pre-64's and a lot of Mausers and in the long run the Dakota is cheaper than trying to pour money into a Mauser to get it where you will want it. If I had it to do over again I would have collected Dakota 76 to use for all my center fire rifles. You can do as well with some other after market actions just figure on spending 3 or 4 times the money per action as the Dakota action.

I was talking classic.

I was thinking about starting a petition for Dakota to make actions with double square bridges and straight handles.

A no brainer on this end..I will take a custom Mauser for dangerous game everytime, or for anything else for that matter, and the Mod. 70 will run a distant second with me, but I do love the old pre 64s and have a few, just that the Mauser is a better rifle..the Dakotas and other knockoffs have never impressed me that much..

And I'm just the exact opposite..

Ditto,

The answer is in what you would do to convert and M70 to M98

1) Grind the recoil lug right down in size.

2) Move the recoil lug back so as to reduced the amount of stock material behind the lug. Doing this in conjunction with making a tiny recoil lugs means you then a barrel lug on even a 375. Althouh that can be overcome if you use very hard wood in the stock.

3) Put the action screw into the recoil lug so as to minimise the amoung of stock material that is "clamped" between floor plate and action.

4) Grind the tang away until there is virtually nothing to bed. The idea here is not just to make bedding harder but you will be able to crush the stock under the tang unless you put a pillar or metal tube in the stock.

5)Thin the actions rails right down so as to get as much flex in the action as possible.

If a fellow really wants to get in a pissing contest on which handles the gas better then Mauser's win hands down, If you want to care about the cost of converting and action for making and action more user friendly then WINCHESTER wins hands down. Which one do I choose for a DCR is the one I don't have to put much money in that does every thing I want without sending on a trip that does not require several hundred bucks in shipping along with all the other machine work so that I have spent a few grand on the action before I fit a barrel and stock it.

You know this gets so crazy that looking around the used market really makes a lot of sense. A WWI converted Mauser's do look like a great deal when you get lucky. Of course the days of a few hundred bucks for these rifles is long gone and the lines of people looking are a lot longer.

I like both but prefer the Mauser for cartridges that'll fit in it without too much modification.

Terry

Tough to go wrong with either. I prefer the pre-64 over the classic though. I wish they would have made the Classic with a one-piece bolt.

What caliber are you planning? Any thing over a .458 LOTT doesn't fit well on a M70,but how much more do you need in a bolt gun? A M70 can handle long,but not wide,the proper Mauser can do both..keyword..."proper Mauser"

???

I guess the WSMs are really, really narrow, eh?

I take exception to the recoil lug on a Mauser being too small, that is absurd, ask about any Gun Guild member...The Mauser handles gas escape much better..The Mauser is hardened on the outside and soft in the middle so it will bulge, even split but not fly into sharpnel, wherein a M-70 will fracture and chunks will fly in all directions. I won't argue the point but am only making some statements to give some understanding as to my choice...If you looking to save bucks then the M-70 is a winner, as a lot of what needs doing is done at the factory, no doubt about that..One of the reasons I use and prefer both, but the Mauser is my DG rifle hands down, and my preference for any bolt gun and for many more reasons than stated...Much has been written on the subject so I won't pursue it further..

My statement was aimed at the current belted mags....375HH,.458...how many M70's have you seen work with the .416 RIGBY,.505 Gibbs or even .460 Wby? .510 Wells ?

I really don't think much of WSM's anyway,I sure see a lot of them sitting on used gun racks for sale. Maybe they don't shoot or feed,but that was not the question here anyway.

I am interested in what you have to say Ray. I am not looking to fight just learn something. I was looking at Lon Pauls guns and they just looked perfect for dangerous game rifles. Anyone have any experence or know anything about him?

Model 70 camp. The Dakota if I remember correctly lacks something the Model 70 has (I believe it's the extra bulge (?) on the bolt making it less strong? Maybe the gunsmiths can chime in. jorge

Lon Paul is one of the top builders in the country.He knows what makes a bolt gun work,understands the feeding issues of the magazine and makes the the best DG rifles out there.You do NOT see many of his rifle out on the used market,because the owner won't give them up...
I too am in the M70/P64 camp,for the most part,having hunted with them since 1967 or so,however I like the Mausers,but mine are all small bore,8mm or less.Brno's are the best.

I understand.. I don't see many Mausers in those either, unless it's the quite-rare magnums.. I see those that convert standard Mausers to these kinds of rounds and all I can say is, they can have 'em.. When it gets to that kind of power (ala the NEs, 500,600 etc.), most end up to be double rifles...

But, whatever.. The .458WM can handle pretty much anything on the planet and those were factory offerings in the M70..

Very true, all around..

Mauser can do both..keyword..."proper Mauser"

We can agree on agreeing....I hate seeing Mausers cut up,ground on and attempts made to work on something that shouldn't be...
and the same goes for P64/M70's....
rifle"

don't forget the M70 was chambered to the 300 RUM , and by all accounts they fed pretty good......

What is the best donor action for a 404J or 416 Rem? Where would be the best place to find one?

I think a few of those on AR found their way to 404 Jeffery

I own a Model 70 SS in .300 RUM and topped it off with a 4.5-14 Zeiss Conquest. It is one of the best feeding model 70's I have used. It is also a genuine sub MOA rifle shooting the 200gn Accubonds.

JW

Yep.. Got a Classic SG in .300RUM.. Those are ok..


It was the shorter WSMs that at times were causing grief...

As the owner of one magnum Mauser actioned rifle (.404 Jeffery) and three slant magazine Rigby actioned rifles (.375 H&H, .350 Rigby Magnum, .400/.350), plus original Oberndorf sporters in 9X57, 8X60, and 7X57, and military Oberndorf based sporters in .358 Winchester, .308 Winchester and 6.5X.308, as well as 25 or so pre-64 Model 70's, predominately pre-war models, and ranging in caliber from .22 Hornet to .450 Watts Magnum, I think I am in a position to judge the question pretty fairly.

I have shot Model 70 target rifles for over thirty years, and in the course put more rounds through them in one season than the average hunter would use in a lifetime. In my opinion, the pre-war Model 70 cannot be beat for ease of operation, reliability, superior design and strength.

I value my original Oberndorf sporters and would be glad to face dangerous game with one in my hands, but I would much prefer the Model 70 where speed of operation was a factor.

I have seen one Model 70 blow up in a lifetime of shooting. This was on the 600 yard line at Fort Benning, and the shooter fired the shot, checked it through his scope, and went to reload, only to discover that the top half of the barrel above the chamber was missing, and the corresponding section of receiver ring with it. Neither the shooter nor the scorer had noticed anything abnormal about the shot, and it was marked and scored as usual. Since the ammunition was clearly not at fault, the obvious culpret was the barrel, which evidently had an undiscovered flaw in the chamber area which resulted in the barrel giving way and taking the top of the receiver with it. No one was hurt, and the shooter continued firing with another rifle.

Under the same circumstances, I am sure a Mauser action would have behaved exactly the same.

The Mauser thumb cut and narrow tang are its weakest parts, making the action less stiff and liable to bending unless inletted with the greatest of care. The left locking lug is weakened by the inclusion of the ejector slot. The unaltered Mauser extractor will not allow single loading except through the magazine. The original Mauser wing safety and bolt handle do not allow for low scope mounting. The Model 70 adjustable trigger is vastly superior to the Mauser version.

The Model 70 is a refinement of the Mauser in virtually every way.

My SC 375 is the best gun ever made..beat it!

As in Winchester South Carolina made 375 H&H?

xausa: Welcome to the CF! Interesting thread and thanks for relating that info....

Seen any other faux pas with either the Mauser or the M70?

Match shooters do get to shoot far more than many hunters so get to see rifle flaws and action problems to a greater degree than some other shooters.Plus they are always tinkering with rifles, replacing barrels frequently,etc. Their input is always valuable.

One of the problems with forums is so often opinions are not supported by the conditions, type of use etc. The type of use will determine how important a problem or failure was, for some conditions it would not even be remembered but for others it would be vital. A good example would be deer shooting in America and pig or goat shooting in Australia. For the American a bullet failure is very important as limited number of animals and the animal is being recovered. But magnify the number of animals and they are left where they fall then a bullets performance will tend to be assessed over a week of shooting and that can give two differen opinions on the same bullet and similar size animals.

Rosco bought it from Lee24 just before he left the fire!!

The M-98 was designed for rugged battle-field conditions while the M-70 was designed as a sporting rifle. The Mauser is the more rugged design while the M-70 is slightly better in the accuracy department but I doubt many hunters will ever encounter conditions where they see either fail.
I have seen freezing and wet, rusting conditions where M-70's failed to fire due to their shorter, weaker firing pin fall.

Unless the pre-64 Mod 70 was altered for HANDLING GAS, THEY SURE PUT Gas back in the face of shooters from pierced primers, ask me how I know. I shoot the pre-64's for many years in National match across the course both the pre-war and post war nodes and can tell you that the firing pin and the bolt shroud (without modification do direct gas back to the shooters face) Wish it was not the case but it was. I never had a Mauser do that to me. Yes the M-70 has a lot more going for it in the trigger department. The late , great ROY DUNLAP had a wonderful cure for the model-70 and it eliminated the gas in the face problem once and for all.

Point taken, but my circumstances are perhaps a bit different. I live in a part of my state where the deer season begins September 26 and ends January 10. During that time, the daily limit on deer is three, with the proviso that only three antlered deer may be taken per season.

Fifty years ago, deer were a rarity around here, now, after a perhaps overenthusiastic transplanting project, they are a menace, with the number of road accidents and other deer involved encounters steadily growing. A motorcyclist was killed near here last year when a deer collided with his machine and threw him into the path of an oncoming vehicle.

The year before, a bank officer in a downtown bank was surprised when a buck jumped through a window and landed on her desk. The deer ran amok in the bank, was eventually trapped in the bank president's office and sedated, only after he had totally trashed the office.

Then there's the crop damage. I own about 100 acres of cropland which are planted yearly in soybeans. Some portions of the fields are completely destroyed by the deer.

I could apply for permission to destroy deer causing crop damage, but if I did shoot such deer out of season, they would have to be left where thay lay. I consider the loss of that much potential food inconcienable, so I prefer to confine my shooting to the regular season, when I try to take full advantage of the game laws. The deer are distributed to families who have expressed an interest in the meat and are willing to pay for the processing.

My opportunities to try out hunting rifles and calibers are virtually unlimited, and for that reason I try to use as many calibers and rifles as I can. Last year, for example, I shot deer with a 7X57 G33/40 Mauser sporter, a .358 Winchester on an Oberndorf military action, a 7X64 on a BRNO 22H rifle, and a .25-'06 (rechambered from .257 Roberts) on a pre-war Model 70 action. Ranges were from 50 to 250 yards.

I have killed deer with a .22 Savage HiPower Model 99 Savage, with a .308 Winchester Model 88 Winchester, with a .400 Whelen on a 1903 Springfield, with a Sauer and Sohn drilling in rifle caliber 8X57IR and with other rifles and calibers which don't come to mind right now.

I killed a whole menagerie of African game with my .300 H&H Model 70. I killed other African animals with rifles ranging from caliber .222 Remington, through 7X57, .375 H&H, .458 Winchester, .450 Watts, and a .505 of my own design. While I have never hunted in Alaska or in the mountains, I think I can comment on the experiences I have had with some degree of confidence.

I once owned a Dunlap rifle with the modification you mention. It is an excellent precaution, which fortunately I have never had a need for. Why Winchester failed to adopt it is beyond me.

I have not had many perce primers out side of match shooters and have never had the problem with my current actions from Weber. But then again I no longer shoot like I used to. Just don't have the opertunity like I did when Roy was still alive and I could drive to his shop in Tuson. I think that Winchester would have herd lots of complants about the angle iron look on the shroud from non-match shooters that had no clue. How many folks do yu think have put 6 barrels on their old Model 70's?

One other reason for misfires under freezing conditions is congealed lubricants. Marines in North Korea during the winter of 1950-51 found that alcohol based hair oil was superior to any petroleum products under conditions of extreme cold.

Here's one.

My match rifle is in the 23,XXX serial number range. I used to get 2000 rounds out of a new barrel, then have it cut off and rechambered and use it for another 2000 rounds. Some of my best scores were shot with rechambered barrels.

One of the reasons Mausers handle gas better, aside from the flange on the bolt shroud, is the thumb cut, which allows the gas to vent harmlessly off to the side. So a weakness in one respect can be a strength in another.

I was once shooting an M 1917 Enfield when the whole case gave way (my only serious reloading error, just under 50 years ago). If I had not been wearing glasses, I would have a glass eye now and be shooting left handed. As it was, I picked bits of brass out of my face and scalp for years afterwards.

It always pays to check cartridge cases for double powder charges when using reduced loads.

Ed Lapour makes a model 70 safety with a gas flange setup.

I've enjoyed reading this guys, thank you.

One of my hardest gun nut decisions lately is what to do with a 1947 Type II std 270 barrelled action I have squirrelled away. I haven't been able to decide...

That's great.

Have you ever had a case blow while shooting a Model 70 Winchester?

The only other case I had blow was in an M1A barrelled to .276 Pederson, the original cartridge the Garand rifle was built around. It turned out to be very pressure sensitive.

When the case let go, it wrecked the stock and the magazine, but harmed neither the action nor the shooter. The M1/M14 system handles gas very well from the shooter's standpoint.

Put it in a stock and shoot it..... ..................bet it's a drill...

This has been a very interesting topic. But I wonder how much dose it really matter which action you use in real life. Unless you are loading to max the average load that most will use will never be bad enough to cause either action to fail.

I am also interested to know if anyone has had anything to do with the new FN built M70 winchester Magnum actions that are being released in 375H&H 416Rem. There is also another magnum calibre but I cannot remember what that one was.
The improvements on this new action may solve some of the alledged problems associated with the M70.

John,
As a matter of fact, I recently had a defective .300RUM case blow in my model 70 SS. The brass split a hairline crack about 1/2 inch along the length of the case towards the rear and blew out just in front of the rim.

The gas was handled adequately to the point that I never knew it happend until I opened the bolt and released the remnants of the gas "cloud".

There wa no evidence of the occurence to the rifle or my person.

John

Methinks that may (the operative word there) have more to do with owner's failure to properly prep his rifle for adverse weather conditions than any real fault of the rifle..

I've used M70s for deer hunting in northern TAX HELL WISCONSIN in temps around -30F and never had a problem.. But I prep the rifle by fully stripping the bolt, spring, shroud etc., and ensure they're 'dry' (lube-wise) before I reassemble.. In over 35 years, I've had exactly ONE misfire on a M70 during deer season. It was my son's .264WM and after it occured I realized I had neglected to prep his rifle.. It was my fault. That night, I stripped it down, cleaned all bolt parts, striker and shroud and put it together.. Next few days, same weather, the rifle functioned perfectly..

Have had an M-70 and a M-700 both fail to ignite a primer...on game. It was a 70 degree day for the M-70 and above freezing with that other brand.

Redneck, you certainly know by now that my preparation is impecable...it could not have been my fault...:)

Am sticking with the mouser. It ignites primers with or without tender loving care...

Well da

Model 70 classics have a gas block on the bolt that is suppose to prevent gas form going down the left raceway. Looks like it works or worked in your case.
Does nay one have a pic or a description of the Roy Dunlap mod?

70F? I thought you said in the post above that it failed in freezing weather?? Could it have also been a bad primer? I've had that happen with a customer's rifle in 30-06.. Three rounds failed.. They wouldn't go off in any rifle, and those were factory rounds.. Found out the primers were defective..

I know nothing..

You got a cat that ignites primers?? Must be SOME cat.. OHHHHHHh,, you mean 'Mauser'...

JUST kidding ya... Heheheheheeee..

I thought I only posted once. Don't remember saying anything about freezing weather...must have been that other less experienced guy...:)

Red, I suspected primer, particularly the always mentioned oil on the primer, but after shooting said buck with the next round, another hit made it go off, no problem. Same with the M-700. That's my daughters rifle and was sitting right next to her when it happened. Handed her my 98 to do the killing...

My above post was certainly not meant to dis the M-70 or the M-700...am sure they make fine bench rifles...:)

You're right - it was the other guy who mentioned freezing weather..

Although, you brought to mind a question I should ask: Do you store your bolt rifles with the striker in the fired position? Or left cocked?

I always advocate storing the M70 (or any bolt rifle) with the striker in the fired position so the firing pin spring won't take a 'set' or weaken..

Normally the fired position...but that is a lot to remember. I have trouble remembering my name and that isn't a recent development. I suppose I should pay a little more attention to my more delicately built rifles...:)

Did replace the M-70 FP spring with a heavier one. Do you know how hard it is to find a 100# M-70 spring?

In fairness to the other brand that my daugher uses (and I'm all about fairness as you know) it then had one of those convoluted saftey first, FP setups. Replaced. She has since been slaying w/o incidents. Should have seen the look on her face--and what she said can't be repeated in polite company...

Good...

Question is, why would you need one anywhere near that strong???

I've installed a few Tubb kits.. Those are very good..

just pulling your leg, my friend....

I don't remember the specifics, just bumped it up a notch for a little insurance.

Mauser hands down however if I was building a new gun I would invest in a
Prechtl Mauser action, it is the finest bolt action I have ever seen and handled!

Dino

Ugly bolt handle

Never heard of it til now.



http://www.golmatic.de/Waffen_EN/jagdwaffen_en/jagdwaffen_en.htm

Dino, you may be right.......I need you to buy one for me

I would agree with Phil that a Mauser may be tougher overall than most anything else(paraphrasing what he said of course),and less likely to fail under tough conditions.....But I have yet to have a problem with a pre 64,so they get the nod for me......that said i would take a good Mauser just as fast.

If I were to spend $15-$20k for a wood stocked,dangerous game bolt gun, the Prechtl would be at the top of the heap......and I would keep the original Mauser trigger,too.

Hi Bob

It is amazing that after a 100+ years the Mauser action is still so desired and revered. The Winchester Pre-64 as well is adorned by the masses much more so than it's Classic replacement. It just goes to show you that if it ain't broke don't fix it, in a 100 years the only thing that has improved is the metal process in some of the firearm parts and the advances in bullet construction.

By the way I bought you the Mcmillan Legacy now you want a Prechtl build-your kill'n me !!

Dino

Dino: Quit sqwawkin' and buy the Prechtl.....!

I am showing off my lack of knowledge, but I'll ask anyway. Are the various CZ550 functionally inferior to these two choices? I ask because they are my primary controlled round feed rifles, aside from one commercial Mauser 98 action, also with the safety on the right side of the action rather than on the bolt as with the Model 70 and Mauser 98 military models.

Carson, I have never had a CZ but from what I read and hear they have a very good reputation.

I have never heard they are are functionally inferior in any way.Those that actually own them will likely chime in.

I don;t have a CZ, but my ZKK's have the full C-ring breeching that the 98 does, as well as the undercut exctractor groove, and I'm pretty certain the CZ is the same.

The ZKK does not have a full shroud that blocks the left side, but I think the CZ does.

Both the CZ and ZKK trigger assemblies have more parts than an entire 98k action.

The model 70 has a 3 position safety the Mauser does not! The model 70 is a more refined action with all the bells & whistles on the rifle factory installed already. Both actions have a very long and excellent track record.

I look at the CZ as a hybid between the Mauser and the M70. Same extractor system as both, same ejection as a M70, recoil lug/tang/bedding like a Mauser. I really like the neat little take down button similiar to the M70 that CZ has. I really think the CZ is under-rated. The thing I dislike about the CZ is what free miner pointed out. The trigger is a bit over-engineered. I'd rather the simpler M70 or Mauser trigger.

The M 70 trigger is no longer simple, sad to say. On a CZ you can replace the factory trigger with a good old two stage Mauser trigger which is bulletproof and allows a fine pull as well.

EDMHunter,
Just read your post, no arguement with me, hope it didn't sound that way, if so then I apoligize, the typed word can be misleading as it comes without expression.

The old M-70 Win. trigger was the best ever, it's pretty dumb to fix something that ain't broke.

As to the comparison of the two, they are both my favorite rifles, but a high dollar custom Mauser is a better rifle than the M-70 IMO..for a number of reasons that have mostly been covered in this thread, but you won't go wrong with either one.

Off topic but I have CZ 550 on a 416Rigby and a 300H&H
also have both of the others. 2 Mauser on a 308 Norma mag
M70 is not big game
I am also CFeed only for Big game

Ray I wanted to hear reasons you had picked Mauser's. What I ment was I was not wanting to start a fight between people who favor one or the other. I like to hear the good and bad points of each and make my own decision. You have alot of knowledge and experience with both and I was hoping to learn something from you.

Does anyone import these action in the US? What is the cost? Looks great!

If it's anything like the built Mausers I saw on my last trip to Germany...10K to 12K USD would be my guess for a Prechtl gun

Hi

New England Custom Guns in Meridan NH was bringing them in, I am not sure if they still are? They used the action in some of their custom builds as well they import the Reimer Johannsen rifles which used the same action. The high end Mauser rifles that were coming in a few years ago through SIG were also using the same action.

Prechtl puts a lot of time in the finish work on these actions, there in a league of their own.

www.newenglandcustomgun.com

603-469-2450 ?

Dino

EDNHunter,
first of all I have to tell all the Lon Paul Win. M-70 owned by 458 Win has been a conflict of friedship in that he won't let me have it! and I have humbled myself to him to no avail!

I like the Mausers for a number of reason and could scribe volumes as to why but I will only go with the basics for his post.

I like the gas handleing qualities of the Mauser and that cannot be argued by any knowledgable person..I also like the fact that the Mauser is case hardened in critical parts and only on the surface..This is to stop fragmentation if the gun blows up, A Mauser will only swell up like a baloon or in worst case scenarios will split, but not fracture...The M-70 will fragment like a granade..However when both are properly loaded this won't be a problem, its human error that causes this uncalled for situation, but never the less I like the idea of haveing an edge.

I like the bolt slop that makes it a battle rifle and keep it functional in sand, dirt, snow and mud..but in lock up its firm and solid as a rock..It does not have the Mod 70 cone chamber thus totally encases the case in steel, but if a ruptured case or spewing primer occurs it directs the gas out the side port hole wherein a M-70 directs it back into your face and I had this happen on a win. pre 64 M-70 243 and had a bunch of little curly cue smoke colums coming out of tine pepper looking black holes in my forehead, fortunately I have glasses on, so damage was nill and actually looked pretty funny in my truck rear view mirrow when I inspected my face for damage! looked like a minor brush fire!

There are other reasons and their are volumes available for those that care to study the Mauser actions...Paul Mauser and his brother were genious and far ahead of their time and even today they are still copied but have not been improved one bit, the original milsurp mauser is the perfect bolt action battle rifle and can be modified to a perfect sporter but that does not improve on its original design, it just makes it more scope and user friendly..

The Springfield, M-70 and to a lesser extent the Rem 700 is a second rate copy of the mauser IMO..Most guild members and well known custom gun makers agree with me on this subject..but again the M-70 is a first rate rifle..

Ray, I'll let you look at it - along with my Lon Paul 9.3x62. Although it is "only" on an old military Enfield

Mr. Atkinson

Is it just the old mausers that were hardened as you describe or are the new mausers hardened the same?

What is the best Mauser doner rifle to use? Where do you find them. I am thinking 404 Jeffery. Lon Paul makes some beautiful rifles.

It is probably worth noting that Echols bases his Legend on the M70 and I think David Miller is M70 based.

I think that has to do with the fact that the M-70 classic is easily available and takes a lot less work to make into a very nice rifle - especially in the 3.6" magnum length cartridges - than a Mauser. Both D'Arcy and David have, and will, build rifles with a Mauser action but they cost quite a bit more.

Also, D'Arcy has McMillan make the synthetic stock he designed for the Model 70 Classic. This makes putting together the Legend more "affordable" than fitting a syn-stock to various actions.

Here is a recent photo of a 505 Gibbs Mauser D'Arcy built for one of my bear hunting clients. It came a bit steeper than his Legend series though.

Wow,look at how thick the sidewalls are on that box magazine!Built for heavy duty use and recoil,too.Nice work!

IIRC Miller worked in concert with the Winchester boys to design the M70 Classic action....he built,I think, the first M70 rifle on that action.

Good thread!

I suspect with Echols that his customers for the Legend are a bit accuracy minded and no matter you cut it the M70 has about the best bedding configuration and the Mauser the worse.

They're almost identical.

Well I guess they are both flat bottomed.

For starters there is the tang. Next, the recoil lug on the M70 is as big as they comes and the Mauser is as small as they come.

The best donor Mausers are the Chilians, G33-40, Pruruvians, some of the 1909s and it's best to spend the extra $50 to have them softened and then brought back up to specs...The new Mausers on the market are probably done this way, but I wouldn't swear to it..The lovely FNs are great action but not as good as the above by a long shot..FNs should not be converted to STWs, Rums, etc..

Today if I was inclined to build another 404 Jefferys, I would find a good Win. M-70 in 300 or 375 RUM as the action and box will fit a 404 Jefferys with a modicum of tweeking and you will have a gun that will feed 110%...I don't want another 404 Jefferys on a std. Mauser action as its really hard to find a metalsmith that will properly do one, and it takes a world of skill that few have and a good big M-20 type Mauser action is bloody expensive, starting at $4500.

What are the differences between a M-20 and a BRNO 602? Don't know much about the M-20.
One thing for Mauser, Mr. Wells liked them................