Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Penetration vs. Frag

I am a hunting rookie. I have about 15 kills on hogs and deer.

With bullets I went from one end of the spectrum to the other. Most of the stuff I have shot has been with high frag bullets like the Sierra Matchking and the Hornady V-max. My last two kills were TSX bullets.

My question for some of you with more experience is, does one type of bullet appear to down whitetail deer faster? Penetrators or Frags? No difference?

all depends on if you are a shoulder shooter or a ribcage shooter

I agree that it depends on the game and shot placement as to which way you should lean. And while I like fragmentation, I don't go so far as to use varmint and match bullets. I like basic softpoints and Nosler Ballistic Tip type bullets for deer. With what you're doing now, you've at least come the right direction in using big game bullets, even though those TSXs aren't my favorite for deer sized stuff, unless you're driving them like a bat outta hell. Last two elk I used TSXs and TTSXs on were started in excess of 3300 and 3500 fps, respectively. They worked well. But for softer game I like softer bullets.

I don't want a bullet that fragments, period. I have had several bad experiences, others mileage may vary.

I do like bullets that open fairly quick, provide controlled expansion and offer good penetration over a wide range of velocity.

That may sound like having your cake and eating it too, but bullets that give you all 3 are out there.

IME they work well on broadside, quartering away and high shoulder shots. (deer & hogs).

Some are newer premium bullets and some have been around for quite awhile.

While I semi-agree on the shot placement deal, the deer doesn't always cooperate and provide you the angle you're looking for, so you need a bullet that will be effective in most any scenario.

Frags!

Barsness on the topic.

Don't be afraid to state your own opinion and experiences.
It could start with, "I hate bullets that way over penetrate because....."

Or it could start with, "I hate bullets that way under penetrate because..."

The question is which type put down deer quicker, not which type do you like more.

OK....I hate bullets that wayyy overpenetrate because I only have one to post a pic of....

Ingwe

Oh yeah, and I believe fragmenting type bullets put deer down quicker that non fraggers when you're a lunger and not a shoulderererererer

I agree with JohnMoses and some of the guys above. There are premium bullets out there that offer all of the performance qualities necessary. I personally like accubonds. I prefer to shoot shoulders anywhere from 20 yards to 400 yards with a 7mm WSM (deer sized) and 325 WSM (elk sized). These premium bullets such as partitions, accubonds, ttsx, etc. can handle all situations with aaccuracy, penetration, weight retention, and the expansion necessary to do serious damage.

I don't think you could go wrong with any of the bullets listed.

Cacciatore,

Well, maybe--except both Partitions and AccuBonds were designed to be "partial fraggers." When John Noslers designed the Partition, he had hunted a long time and was pretty well convinced that a bullet that fragments to a certain degree kills deer quicker. That's exactly why he designed the front end of the Partition to come apart--something that an awful lot of hunters think is some sort of defect, that John Nosler simply didn't know any better. They don't understand the reason for it, and have come under the spell of 100% weight retention, whether or not it actually kills quicker.

It's also the reason Nosler doesn't totally bond the AccuBond. Instead only the rear 2/3 or so is bonded. It's made that way not because Nosler didn't know how to bond the entire jacket to the core, but because so many people had whined about how Nosler should build a plastic-tipped Partition.

So they designed the AccuBond the act like a Partition--including the fact that lighter AB's (like lighter Partitions) are designed to lose a higher percentage of their weight to fragmentation. This is precisely because they're more like to be used on deer, instead of larger game.

Except for relatgively rare exceptions, big game bullets cannot be broken down neatly into fraggers and non-fraggers. Instead there is a continuum, from bullets tha come totally apart (such as the Berger VLD) and bullets that retain all their weight (such as the TSX, Nosler E-Tip, etc.).

MOST bullets fall somewhere betweem, and are some combination of penetrater and fragger, whether the Hornady Interlock (about a 50% fragger/penetrater, on average) or the Swift A-Frame (about a 10% fragger and 90% penetrater).

Then the whole thing is complicated by the fact that some bullets expand a lot wider than others, and also fragment to some degree. Even the toughest bonded bullets are at least partial fraggers, because they have lead cores, and lead fragments. Many also lose part of the frontal jacket in fragmentation.

2 bullets that I can honestly say I have never complained about are the Hornady Interlock and the Nosler Partition. The "fraggers" do kill quicker, but I have had the most inconsistantcy with them due to lack of enough penetration. The bullets mentioned above alway do plenty of damage and alway have fully penetrated deer.

The "fraggers seem to do better at distance with the speed I am shooting them, but I have also loaded up some SGK in the 7x57 so it will be interesting to see their performance on deer in that cartridge at mid 2000 fps speeds. Besides they are cheaper than partitions and real accurate.

I took fragment to mean the bullet as a projectile is basically destroyed.

Most all bullets with the exception of the monometals will lose varying percentages of their weight and still retain enough mass to deliver good penetration. I never really considered that "fragmenting".

Bullets that I have had fragment on game were old NBT's and older Sierras. I've been told that this does not occur now, but I do not know, as I haven't shot them in years.

JM

You guys are on the right track with this conversation. I dont think you should use a true frag bullet like a varmint bullet. While they may work sometimes, I would be worried about a shoulder shot.

I am starting to think I may want an in between bullet like a NBT rather than the TTSX I have been shooting. That being said I get the feeling a bullet that does expand a shed a little weight will not necessarily ground a deer faster....

It is also going to depend some on just how big the deer you hunt are. On our little Texas deer anyone who can shoot will have no trouble at all putting deer down with 55 gr 223s or 222s with common run of the mill and mine bullets.
On the otherhand I don't think a 223 or 22-250 would be my first choice for some of the humongous northern deer I read about and see pictures of. Unless I could be assured of being able to PICK MY SHOT

BCR

heck, within 250 yds I just load a plain old heavy for caliber, high sectional density Round Nose and don't worry about it..

If it is going to be that big of a problem, then out comes the 338/06 with a 250 grain RN or the 444 Marlin with 300 grain XTPs..

if the range is too far for those to work.. then I just need to get closer...

guess with that, and my scope set on 4 power, I am sort of low tech by your guys standards...

While covered a few times in the past. The subject is still an excellent one and I appreciate this thread of opinions since it too has been a subject of main interest for me hunting this year.

For my 6.5-284 for longer range Im sticking with the Berger VLD hunting 130 grain for the BC and velocities I can maintain at my hunting ranges.

For my 6BR, Ive chosen a few to run and experience their capabilities at the lower velocities Ill be running them.

Ive both 85 and 95 grain partitions, the 95 grain Berger VLD hunting and 90 grain Scirocco (not the II version but the original that Im told is "softer").

Preferring a broadside rib cage shot like most, it's my opinion that something that does either rapidly expand and/or fragment AFTER penetrating will git er done the quickest and cleanest.

I full expect ALL of them to work fine when keeping track of and using them below the maximum distance they still retain more then the minimum velocity required to perform but it will still be interesting (to me anyway) to compare as close to identical shot placement results as I can muster.

It's a compilation of bullet construction and speed at impact and of course, bullet placement that gets it done quickest in my eyes.

Ive yet to use the VLD on deer but enough information has come in that I feel they will do what is advertised and will be dang tough to beat on whitetail in my neck of the woods.

I'll be better qualified to reply as to my "preference" after season this year but for now, my vote goes to a bullet that penetrates enough AND fragments inside.

IMHO, an exit wound would be neither expected nor required but I know the Noslers SHOULD exit and will get the job done as well.

How the recovery distances compare?.........we shall see, but I'm fully expecting the result of those comparisions to be in line with what Mule Deer is also sharing. Both WORK but I fully expect the fragnmenting bullet to put em down fastest but it will still be informative running the comparison on my own.

If you like penetration and shoot a bullet designed to do so, then break bones.

If you like a bullet to shed 50+ % of it's weight then smash lungs.

Both work well if the shot placement is made on behalf of the shooter.

From my experience with Sierra's (130 SGK in 270 Win.), they are soft, I have had them fail to penetrate a deers shoulder at 100 yards and at around 200 yards I personally have had them totally come apart or work perfectly. The few 300+ yards shots I have taken with them shows what I consider perfect bullet performance. Wide would channel and total penetration.

Thus the reason I want to try the 160s in the 7x57.