When you snatch a loss from the jaws of victory, moral victory is all that's left. I think it still goes into the "L" column,Brian!
You are 110% correct Bob. 20 years from now, when people look at the fight records, all it will show is that Anderson Silva won by submission in the fifth round. That's all people will remember or care about. No one is going to remember that people didn't give Chael Sonnen a chance in hell, and that he kicked the ever loving dog crap out of the pound for pound best fighter in the world for 23 minutes straight. All they wil remember is that Anderson Silva won, and Chael Sonnen lost. Only the people who got to watch it in the moment understand the context of what happened. Even people who watch Randy Couture vs Tim Sylvia 3 years after the fact don't understand what that was like. They come in and watch that fight now and it's like, "Oh, Randy dominated from bell to bell. Tim Sylvia is a bum. Big deal." People who weren't around when that fight went down don't understand what it was like in the leadup, how everyone was convinced that Randy would lose, how everyone (including UFC staff members) were praying that Randy just didn't get hurt in there. And when Randy came out and floored Tim Sylvia with a right hand from hell in the first ten seconds of that fight, everyone damn near fainted from shock. You don't get that if you weren't around then, and watch it on down the line.
So the bottom line is, Anderson Silva won and Chael Sonnen lost. That's all people will remember in the end. Sonnen said it best,he won the silver medal.
Brian.
"You set your own goals for success, and when you succeed it don't necessarily mean that you're going to be a big star or make a lot of money or anything. You'll feel it in your heart whether you've succeeded or not." - Roy Buchanan
If you noticed Anderson got caught by the left hook a few times and whats Vitor's best punch? Anderson clearly worked on his cardio for this fight but Chael beat the black off that boy. I'm still pissed. On another note we might have seen Hughs at his very best, when was the last time he dropped a dude with a left. Fitch was also at his best. Would be a pretty interesting fight between Kos and Fitch.
Not only does Vitor have a great set of hands, he's a damn good offensive wrestler. He could put Anderson on his back just as easily as Chael did, probably easier because he could set up the takedown with his hands. From there, Vitor actually has a clear path to finish the fight - Vitor's ground and pound is absolutley devasting. The way Anderson was just laying there flat on his back and accepting what Chael dished out........he wouldn't be able to do that with Vitor on top of him. The problem with Vitor is knowing whether or not he'd show up mentally for the fight. And if the fight turned tough at all, would Vitor stick around? That's why I'd never pick Vitor to beat Chael Sonnen. Sonnen would put Vitor on his back, start roughing him up and Vitor would go "Yeah,that after party is sounding real good right about now."
I don't know if we saw Hughes at his very best so much as we saw him against a very mediocore opponent. I simply could not BELIEVE that everyone and his brother picked Ricardo Almedia to beat Matt Hughes in the lead up to this fight. People were picking Almedia by first round submission. I was like, really? Have I watched the same fights these people have? Matt Hughes might have slowed down a bit over the years, but in the last 8 years or so he's only lost to BJ Penn, Georges St. Pierre and Thiago Alves. Those guys aren't exactly bums. Ricardo Almedia on the other hand could get nothing going against Patrick Cote and had a life and death struggle with Kendall Grove in a fight where he was nearly submitted. I was shocked that people really thought that Almedia was going to run over Hughes. Hughes if anything is still a fantastic grappler, and he showed that against Almedia. When was the last time you saw a BJJ black belt get choked unconcious with a front headlock? That was just a basic wrestling hold. I'm sure Dave Shultz was smiling from up in heaven when he saw that.
Fitch and Koscheck will never, ever fight each other. Dana White has treated both men and their team pretty poorly over the years, and they aren't going to bend over backwards for the guy just because he wants that fight to happen. Don't forget that Dana fired Fitch and everyone else on the AKA roster when Fitch didn't sign on to be in that stupid video game not even a year and a half ago. Lorenzo Fertitta had to fly in and straighten everything out within 24 hours because everyone on the internet was losing their minds over it. Fitch and Koscheck aren't going to do jack crap for that guy. And furthermore, Koscheck would actually have to beat GSP for this to actually be an issue. That right there is a bridge too far.
As for Couture vs Toney which someone mentioned earlier in this thread - ya'll saw UFC 1, right? All these questions were answered in 1993. If I told you, "Randy Couture has a fight coming up in a few weeks. The guy he's fighting is making his MMA debut. He's 41 years old. He's fat, he's completley out of shape, he can't grapple whatsoever, he can't throw a kick to save his life, but he can throw a decent set of hands", you would laugh your ass off. You wouldn't even DREAM of it being remotley competitive. But because James Toney was a fantastic pro boxer 15 years ago (and at 167 pounds,no less),everyone automatically assumes he's got a great chance here. The guy has never been known for having knockout power. He's not horribly aggressive. He's going to have a 30 second window (at best) to land a shot on Randy when he's coming in. Randy has fought the best strikers in MMA and not a single one of them knocked him out in 30 seconds. Once Randy gets his hands on him, the fight is over. Take down straight to mount, elbows, Toney rolls over to protect his face, rear naked choke. The fight lasts maybe 3 minutes, depending on how cruel Randy is feeling. If Randy tries to prove a point, he might press him up against the fence and pound on him awhile instead of going for the submission, in which case it would go late into the first. Randy doesn't let him get out of the first round though, unless he's just being really sadistic.
Brian.
"You set your own goals for success, and when you succeed it don't necessarily mean that you're going to be a big star or make a lot of money or anything. You'll feel it in your heart whether you've succeeded or not." - Roy Buchanan
Watching that interview makes Chael come off as the smartest guy in the room. Man, he is articulate! I cannot remember any other person in any form of fighting that can speak that clearly. It is pretty impressive.
I too can't get over how effectively he can communicate and do so without pause or the least bit of stutter. Dana would be wise to use him in marketing to promote the sport. He may have lost the fight, but he won over a ton of new fans and I'm glad to see he was able to back up his trash talk with his takedowns and fists, at least for 4 3/4 rounds.
He and Silva would be ratings gold to coach the next TUF, though I'd not be surpriesed if Silva wanted nothing to do with it.
Sonnen is a realtor and politician by trade.His mother is or was a politician as well.The guy is no dummy.He's always been good on the mike.All the garbage he talked before the fight was just to sell the fight-he's a brilliant salesman,and I'm sure he can sell houses or used cars or insurance like nobodies business.He will do whatever it takes to make the sale.In the case of selling this fight,if it came down to making you think he was a complete psychotic a$$hole,so be it.If it made you want to plunk down your $39.95 for the PPV,he did his job one way or the other.
As for promoting the sport-Sonnen actually single handidly got MMA legalized in Oregon.Don't know if the UFC would want to use him to promote the sport though,as he's said some pretty far out there stuff that could come back there to bite him in the ass.The stuff about Lance Armstrong (and subsiquent hilarious denial of such) was just pushing it a bit too far.I don't know if anyone can take him seriously after that.And frankly,I don't know if Sonnen wants anyone to.He knows that being a wholesome,nice guy doesn't sell.Being a bombastic,off the wall character that people will remember and want to keep seeing is what sells.
Brian.
"You set your own goals for success, and when you succeed it don't necessarily mean that you're going to be a big star or make a lot of money or anything. You'll feel it in your heart whether you've succeeded or not." - Roy Buchanan
I gotta say, I dont fully understand Toney being in the UFC, I dont really understand why he wants to fight Randy, I mean other than money. But, really what is he going to be able to do from his back? I suspect that we will see Randy giving a spanking for the first time since he beat up Tito, but who knows, maybe Toney will suprise all of us?
A lap dance is sooooo much better when the stripper is crying
I gotta agree that Randy is gonna spank Toney. It would be interesting if he decided to keep it a stand-up fight for a bit. Randy displayed some pretty serious boxing skills during his fight with Sylvia. Of course Sylvia's hands are a lot slower than Toney's. If it goes to the ground Toney's is all done. Turns out I'm going to be just outside of Boston on the 28th. I'm still deciding if it's worth the $200 to see it live.
BTW, watching Hughes choke that guy was some of the coolest MMA I've seen in awhile. That was a great fight. Overall it was worth the $40 to watch UFC 117. My wife loves Matt Hughes, she couldn't figure out why he wasn't more aggressive at first. I told her, he's been around long enough, he's not wasting punches. Then on the first opportunity, Bam, lights out. I laughed so hard.
I will be surprised if Toney lasts 2 minutes. I think Brian set it best, he has about a 30 second window before he gets put on his butt and becomes a fish out of water.
When you snatch a loss from the jaws of victory, moral victory is all that's left. I think it still goes into the "L" column,Brian!
You are 110% correct Bob. 20 years from now, when people look at the fight records, all it will show is that Anderson Silva won by submission in the fifth round. That's all people will remember or care about. No one is going to remember that people didn't give Chael Sonnen a chance in hell, and that he kicked the ever loving dog crap out of the pound for pound best fighter in the world for 23 minutes straight. All they wil remember is that Anderson Silva won, and Chael Sonnen lost.
Bob / Brian,
Can't say I agree at all. For those of us a wee bit older, the name Carmen Basilio comes to mind. We recall some of his classic fights (including those with Sugar Ray) where he lost. But boy oh boy, did he dish it out as well as take it. Look him up if the name doesn't ring a bell.
I will concede that Sonnen would need more similar events in his resume to be in the same category with Basilo. Still it does serve to show that folks will recall performances despite the "L" in the win-loss column.
I gotta say, I dont fully understand Toney being in the UFC, I dont really understand why he wants to fight Randy, I mean other than money. But, really what is he going to be able to do from his back? I suspect that we will see Randy giving a spanking for the first time since he beat up Tito, but who knows, maybe Toney will suprise all of us?
James Toney can't get a fight in boxing to save his life.It's not that he's not any good-he's got pretty decent skills for the heavyweight division,which is God awful.The problem is that he is an incredibly defensive fighter,and he's hard to look good against.On top of that,he's never been a big draw in boxing.He doesn't put the asses in the seats.So there is no real desire for guys to take fights with Toney.They're certain of having a tough,gritty technical fight against a guy that's not going to make them a lot of money.It's not worth the risk vs the reward.
James Toney hounded the UFC to give him a fight for one reason and one reason only-in the meager hope of winning a big fight,and parlaying that into a big time title fight in boxing.Nothing less,nothing more.He didn't have anything left to do at that point-he literally couldn't get a legit fight in boxing to save his life.He was having to resort to taking fights against club fighters on Indian reservations just to stay sharp.
This is the same thing that happens to every aging boxer.They do ridiculous,dangerous stuff at the end of their career in order to try to stay afloat,one way or another.Joe Louis fought Rocky Marciano.Joe Frazier had a rematch with George Foreman.Muhammad Ali fought Larry Holmes.Sugar Ray Leonard fought Hector Camocho.Oscar De La Hoya fought Manny Pacquiao.Now James Toney is going to fight Randy Couture.
James Toney has the proverbial punchers chance.Randy Couture knows exactly what to expect.All he has to worry about is Toney's hands.He just has to come in and shoot low.Hell,he could take down Toney with an ankle pick if he wanted to.Toney is probably the easiest style matchup Randy has had since his UFC debut at UFC 13 when he fought a couple of just straight bums.A guy with zero takedown defense is just easy pickings for Randy.
Brian.
"You set your own goals for success, and when you succeed it don't necessarily mean that you're going to be a big star or make a lot of money or anything. You'll feel it in your heart whether you've succeeded or not." - Roy Buchanan
BTW, watching Hughes choke that guy was some of the coolest MMA I've seen in awhile. That was a great fight. Overall it was worth the $40 to watch UFC 117. My wife loves Matt Hughes, she couldn't figure out why he wasn't more aggressive at first. I told her, he's been around long enough, he's not wasting punches. Then on the first opportunity, Bam, lights out. I laughed so hard.
That was an old school Dave Shultz front head lock. You've got to have a grip like a MF'er to put a guy out with one of those,especially a BJJ black belt like Almedia who should know how defend a choke.Honestly,Almedia probably didn't even realize he was getting choked yet.That position is usually the initial position for the anaconda choke in BJJ-you would then roll to tighten the grip.Almedia may have been expecting Hughes to roll or readjust his grip to see what he was going to do.He probably never thought in a million years that Hughes could finish that choke from that position.
Brian.
"You set your own goals for success, and when you succeed it don't necessarily mean that you're going to be a big star or make a lot of money or anything. You'll feel it in your heart whether you've succeeded or not." - Roy Buchanan
Matt Hughes is a good guy. Pre fight hype had everything about Almedia seeking revenge, and I can't remember the exact words, but something about BJJ being superior to wrestling. Post fight Hughes said he loved using a wrestling move to choke out a BJJ guy. Then Hughes said "I'm taking the fall off to hunt, I'll see you in the spring." My kinda guy right there.
Chael certainly backed up all that talk and made a lot of fans. Silva got beat down for almost five rounds, but found a way to win. Would love to see those guys coach TUF, but doubt that will ever happen. Can't wait for a rematch.
Silva took a heck of a beating for sure. But most of the time he was on the bottom he was about 2 seconds away from getting an arm bar. He was working that angle all fight long. Controlling Sonnen's arm whenever he could, working his legs up higher on Sonnen's body. Unfortunately for Sonnen, Silva found his opportunity and capitalized on it. He took a lot of punches and still managed to keep his head on straight and make the best of a bad situation. That's what separates the champs from the other guys. I don't really like Silva, but he fought a good fight.
Matt Hughes is a good guy. Pre fight hype had everything about Almedia seeking revenge, and I can't remember the exact words, but something about BJJ being superior to wrestling. Post fight Hughes said he loved using a wrestling move to choke out a BJJ guy. Then Hughes said "I'm taking the fall off to hunt, I'll see you in the spring." My kinda guy right there.
Hughes enjoys getting his digs in with the wrestling vs BJJ thing,but Hughes is actually quite adept at BJJ after spending years training with Jeremy Horn.He isn't officaly ranked under a belt system,but if he was he'd be a high level black belt.The armbar he nailed to counter GSP's kimura attempt from the bottom in their first fight is still one of the best grappling exchanges you'll ever see in a high level MMA fight.
As for Hughes being a good guy.....read his book,"Made in America".It will change your mind,without a doubt.Don't know how much I can judge a guy on his personal life though.There's some stuff in Randy Couture's book that's not really thrilling to read either.If you've got a certain idea in your head about what these guys are like,you probably don't want to read their books.
Brian.
"You set your own goals for success, and when you succeed it don't necessarily mean that you're going to be a big star or make a lot of money or anything. You'll feel it in your heart whether you've succeeded or not." - Roy Buchanan
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