Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers Which lever action rifle and caliber would be the deadliest?

Regarding ice in the action of a rifle, that is not unique to any particular firearm; any weapon that will admit water, can freeze up if it gets cold enough. Down here in coastal Texas, we can have winters with no freezes, and the only bad freezes seem to happen when the sky is very clear, "Blue Northers" is the local term.

I've read thru this whole thread and see a lot of good info and[surprise,surprise!] some B.S. I only have this to add :

I only own one 1895 in 45-70 - it was made the first year they cranked back-up in '72 or'73,I think.I bought it in '74 - so I can't add anything to what has been said about this great rifle/cartridge combo .But I do offer one comment :

Now I have owned considerable more than one horse in my lifetime and never had one that rendered a second shot possible ! And that was with no bear a-charging , neither ! With two reins,two stirrups , and a saddle horn all requiring attention , what I needed [ and had ] was a "drop gun"!

While i do not doubt the 405 is a great round in a lever rifle after all TR hunted Africa with one. But the 405 has been all but dead for decades until Winchester and Browning came out with limited edition comemeratives in that chambering. The old 45-70 was almost extinct as well but it never died out all togeather and has been chambered in at least one rifle continuasly since the 1870's I think there is a reason for that. While chamberings have been used more in bolt actions, and Browning has a magazine fed lever action that is in these bolt action chamberings. I think the sledge hammer effect of a big flat nosed bullet even as camparitivly slow speed has somthing to be said for it on large aggressive animals at close range. While the better BC and Sd may help for longer ranges, you are talking spitting distance, with maybe a spooky bucking horse as well in the mix.

I have two 71's a Winchester and a Browning...love both. Have never shot a grizzly, but with the right bullet I would not feel under gunned.

I have used two early BLR's in .308 and .358, my dad's, and never had any of the problems alluded to here. A friend loves his BLR in .257 Roberts. Never any of the problems mentioned.

Dad also likes his Marlin .444. Loaded right it will do anything you need. Had a Marlin 1895 in .45-70. Great gun and caliber!

Talked to a guy that made a .358 Norma Magnum on a BLR. Said it worked great, with zero problems, but the stock did not fit him and the recoil hurt. He did not want to restock it so he sold it.

Lots of fun choices out there. I thought a short action BLR in .350 Remington Magnum would be fun and think would be a good stopper under most circumstances.

Get a Savage model 99 in 358 Winchester. Problem solved.

Wayne

I'm sure Savage would be busy for a good while building 99s if they ever tooled up again and started building it - even if only in the 358. That would really be a classic. I know I'd get in line, and I need another rifle like I need a stroke.

you bring up a good point Klik and I kind of wonder why they don't.

The guys know how to build a shooting tool, looks be danged on their bolt action rifles.

With the popularity of them you'd think they'd be tempted.

Just don't mess with the original design too much and I'd think they'd be golden for some sales.

I find this discussion very interesting. I am a handloader, but went with the .450.
When they talk about putting a hot rodded 45-70 round in a trap door, and running the risk of catastophic failure. I'm curious? I understand those actions are weak. I also understand our "Marlin actions" are much stronger, or Randy Garrett and the like would not be selling ammo that could cause a problem in them.
I know the schematic drawings of both cartridges 45-70 and .450 are very similar.
I have an experiment for you curious people.
Take a dremel or some other metal cutting deivce and get both empty cartridges and cut them just above the headstamp, "were the shaft of the brass meets the base".
I know the .450 has the belt and this in itself is not supposed to add any strength but regardless of this, just look closely at the two when they are completely cut off.
It suprised me at how beefy the .450 was compared to the 45-70, when I am pushing extreme pressures just for my sense of peace of mind, give me the heavier built brass at least imho. Again with theses actions this is probably a non-issue, but for me there is that lingering doubt. Thanks.

You are correct, it is a non-issue. Winchester 45-70 brass has been tested to 70,000 psi without failure. Hence, the Marlin 1895 action is the limiting factor for the 450 Marlin and 45-70 Gov't.

I'm jumping into this a little late, but I'm a lever guy and a horseman. I own several BLRs, several Marlins and several Winchesters and for the need you are describing there is no doubt in my mind: Marlin Model 1895 .45-70. I love my BLRs and will use two this season, one for mountain goat and one for elk, but if we are talking about dangerous game in the brush I would not even consider anything besides a tube-fed lever action. By the way, I do know of one case where a friend of mine, a single mom, had her BLR jam when a huge black bear forced its way into her home. Her first shot worked, fortunately and there was no need for a second. I've had no jamming problems with my BLRs, but in the excitement of an encounter anything can happen -- like the magazine falling out. Go tube-fed and feed the beast some potent ammo. My choices in order: 1 - Marlin .45-70 2- Marlin .450 3 - Marlin .444 4. BLR .358.
Now, in looking at choice number one for your situation I would probably choose the Guide Gun. At lot of guys are offering some great opinions on their favorite lever-guns and I don't dispute any of them, but when you look at your first criteria as stated in the beginning you are wanting a quick-acting, open-sighted big bore than can be handled effectively and efficiently from a saddlegun scabbard. Many of the rifles mentioned are not going to fit a scabbard as neatly as a few of the others. In some cases, you would probably need to have a special scabbard made. Either the Model 1895 or the 1895G will fit a scabbard and you won't have the small nagging concern of the magazine falling out when you pull the weapon out. When handling a scabbard gun from horseback you want a shorter barrel. In fact, that can be even more true if you are on the ground and trying to pull the rifle out from a scabbard mounted on the saddle. If you want to toy around with customizing I would add a larger loop lever -- but not too large or it won't fit some scabbards -- a bear-proof ejector, Brockman (or other) sights, and an extended mag tube. Also, get rid on that danged cross-bolt safety. Do that first. Then cap it off with having an artist inscribe a charging Grizz on the receiver.

Not to hijack this but, you gone on your goat hunt yet John?

Jay, I leave in a couple days. The goat season opens this Saturday. It's too early for good hair, but an October hunt is out of the question because of cattle and horse work that needs to be done. After a lot of load testing I narrowed my bullet choice in my 7-08 to the Sierra Game King, Berger VLD and Swift A-Frame, all in 160-grain. The Game King won, though I was hoping to take the VLD.
Back to the original thread here, the one thing working against the GUide Gun in a scabbard is the thickness of the forearm. So, I think I would consider a regular length 1895. You can always have a gunsmith take a couple inches off the barrel. Or, you can buy this dandy little 1956-model Marlin in .35 Rem that I have sitting here beside me. Load it with Buffalo Bore's hot loads and while it won't have quite the killing power of a .45-70 it would still be a lot of gun. It really fits in a scabbard well.

I have a Winchester 1895 in .30-06 which I had cut-down to 20" to make it a carbine. With Williams peep sight, it is quick to point. Doesn't carry quite as well as a '94, but it isn't bad. Also good out of a scabbard. This isn't probably considered "big bore", but the .30-06 is respectable with modern 220 grs. Only problem is, these things are scarce!

. . . . and expensive!

I've shot plenty from the saddle. I'd be willing to bet the .50 Alaskan would be a bastard to handle, horseback, and the muzzleblast will spook even the best broke horse.

I think, if you're really concerned about a bear climbing into the saddle with you, and you insist on a long gun, use a pump shotgun with slugs. If a bear's that close, you're not gonna get to it anyway. Your horse will sell out on ya, and you'll either be watching him leave, or wondering why he's running.

Oh I think if you did up a 50 AK and did the orig harold johnson stunt of cutting a 50 BMG bullet down to 450 grains and sticking it in backwards you might notice some penetration. Like Harold said any animal shot at any angle was clean through

My Win. 71's are awesome! I shot a Grizzly with my Deluxe. When I skinned it we were very surprised to see both front shoulders taken out and the bullet (200gr. Hornady, all I could find at the time to reload)was under the skin on the far side! I wouldn't trade them for anything. Made for the saddle scabbard.

If you don't mind a 24" barrel take a look at the Marlin 1895XLR in SS 45-70, add the WWG's ghost ring/Williams Firesight combo, Bear Proof ejector, and if your concerned with penetration, run some of these bad boys through it, i'll be using the 420 gr HH's. I'm going to be using this combo in the coming weeks on a brown bear, if I can find one big enough. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

notice the GARRETTE 45/70 loads for the 45/70 throw a 430 cast at 1650fps, the marlin 450 throws the same weight at 1900fps
below
as its safely loaded to slightly higher pressures in a BLR

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/images/450_430..jpg

http://www.browning.com/products/ca...alue=003B&cat_id=034&type_id=006

I purchased a BROWNING BLR in 450 marlin when they first became available,because I wanted a sure stopper in a timber carbine, they are one of the very few lever actions that lock like a bolt gun and can safely hold high pressure cartidges like the 300 win mag, the 430 cast loads above or similar handloads will easily drop anything youll hunt, and its all available reasonably priced, trust me, the 45 caliber 430 hard cast penetrates very well, Ive shot ELK with similar but slightly slower and lower velocity loads using a marlin 45/70 and they exit from every angle Ive ever shot from, so the 450 marlin/BLR has a slight edge in energy and a significantly larger edge in strength, whats not to like!!

BTW
http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/
theres a nice 425-430 grain 458 mould avilable from these guys and IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 and IMR 4198 work fine in the 450 marlin

If you scroll down on that Garrett site to the next available 45-70 bullet in 420 gr, you'll see that they travel 1850 fps, not that big a difference as compared to the 450 Marlin. So you can get a lighter loaded 420 gr or a tad bit heavier in same. Then there's the 540 gr HH....