Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers Which lever action rifle and caliber would be the deadliest?

The idea of a big bore lever action appeals to me.

I live in grizzly country, and I ride horses. A scope-less lever action that I could throw up in a flash for a close shot is something I've toyed with getting for a while now.

I'll confess my bias, right off. I don't like bullets that are short for their caliber. I think their penetration (to coin a word my students often use) - sucks. So far, I think the deadliest lever action combo for big bears would be the Browning with a .300 magnum ( Winchester or WSM) with a .200 grain TSX Barnes or a 220 grain Nosler. As you can tell - I'm a believer in sectional density. My own backyard penetration tests have confirmed my prejudice.

Yet...I read about rifles firing 45-70's or 45-90's or 50-110's or 50 Alaskan's...and I wonder. How would they fare in a backyard penetration test. Would they be better for big bears up close? I lean towards the modern high pressure cartridges that the Browning design can handle...but I don't like being limited to one rifle.

Tell me your stories, tell me your choices...convince me if you can - that I need to buy a big bore lever action. I need to be convinced to buy something new, something "lever" - the question is what will it be?

Thanks!

I'm writing to my own post here - duoh!

Could a Browning be rebarred to handle a .375 or 414 wildcat based on necked-up 300 mag?

Despite what Freud might say about me - the idea of a big hole in the end of the barrel just appeals to me! LOL!

Take a look at the ballistics of the 405 winchester. The 348 has a very good reputation on bears as well. And in the situations you're talking about there wouldnt be much wrong with the 358 either.

Winchester '86 Extra Lightweight 45-70 from CDNN and handloads OR custom .411 Hawk '95 from z-hat.com.

A Marlin 1895G with either WWG or XS ghost rings sights pushing a 405 grain Kodiak or 400 grain Barnes Original 1800 fps. Loves a scabbard, quicker handling, more of a stopper than the 300 Win Mag ever could be and I just don't trust all that "pot metal" in the Browning BLRs.

As for sectional density being the end all for penetration, in tests the .458" 300 grain Nosler Partition protected point (SD .204) driven 2100 fps has out penetrated the .375 H&H shooting 300 grain bullets (SD .305) 2550 fps.

So, even the Marlin 1895G pushing the Noslers 2100 fps would be a good choice with somewhat less recoil than the 400 grain loads.

Hey Jackfish,

I find those penetration tests you mentioned really interesting and suprising. Can you direct me to them - so I can read more?

To follow up where JackFish left off, Brian Pearce wrote a nice article a while back about taking the Marlin 1895 in 45-70 to Africa for a Cape Buffalo hunt. His ammo of choice was a CorBon 45-70 load, which features their 405 grain solid copper jacketed bullet (a.k.a. the penetrator) moving out at 1650 fps.

Brian proceeded to shoot the Buff at around 80 yards if memory serves. The first shot went completely through the Buff and entered into a matriarch buff standing broadside behind the bull. The 405 CorBon went through her as well killing her on the spot. Brian finished the bull buff by cranking in two more rounds, one of which was an ass ender that penetrated completely length wise through the bull.

Point is, its not about sectional density, which by the way is somewhat archaic as bullets are constructed so much better today, especially these big bore flat nosers with weight behind em.

The 300 Win or WSM is not even remotely in the same class as a stopper. The 444 Marlin loaded with the CorBon 305 penetrator has as much, if not more, crushing/stopping power inside 100 yards than a 375 H&H. This one jets out of a 20" barrel at close to 2200 fps.

Either 45-70 or 444 Marlin in a Win or Marlin lever heaving quality projectiles like the ones above will stop any bear in its tracks. The nice by product is they make great saddle guns and can be put into action very quickly with rapid follow ups.

Just doesn't get any better. Most underestimate the power of these Big Bores, but whatever is on the receiving end of them is certain for termination.

Just personal bias, but I'd go for the Marlin 1895 (your choice, straight 95, the G or the GS) in 45-70. You can get 45-70 loads just about anywhere, which is something you can't really do with .444s, .348s, .358s, and certainly not with any of the customs like the Alaskans.

You can also get the .45-70s loaded from the relative lightweight 300 gr. and 405 gr. factory loaded cupcakes up to the "oh, Momma" class Buffalo Bore and CorBon hot loads. If the .45-70 made it's reputation as a buffalo and bear cartridge "back in the day" with ballistics similar to the standard cupcake factory loads, it ought to do just fine with the modern hot loads.

Besides, there's just something comforting about knowing that your "back-up" has well over 100 years of proven track record behind it in just such situations.

My 2 cents: how many big bears, elk, moose, were killed in the last century plus by big, wide, slow, very heavy lead bullets? Big bullets make big holes, penetrate well, do a good job of dumping energy deep inside. have incredible knockdown power. My choice: stainless Marlin 45-70 ( and I have a .338 and a couple 30-06's when I need long range.

I have to say that the 1895 marlin in 45-70 cal would be my choice for close range work. As for bullets, I agree with the Barnes and Nosler choices if you want to have your bullets go nose to tail inside a Grizzly{in an up close situation, nose to tail is the exact shot your going to get.} . I know I'm going to catch SH.... for saying this, but in a hunting situation where a broadside shot is more the norm, I would be alot happier with a bonded type lead bullet such as a Horady interloc, espesially if you don't hit bone on the way in { ie. behind the shoulder shot.} I have also done the back yard test in sand banks with the barnes bullets and they almost look like you could reload and shoot them again, {Not my first choice for a bullet that may go through heart and lung type stuff.} I'm more into short wide blood trails as apposed to long and skinny. Just my two bits.

I plan on getting a 45-70 marlin for hunting elk in the thick stuff were short shots and possible close encounters of the grizz kind are the norm. I figured I would use a heavy hard cast bullet with the largest meplat that will function through the action. If you take a look at leverguns.com and beartooth bullets.com they have lots of info geared toward the lever enthusiast. Some of the same posters here frequent those sites as well.

Why not go all the way and get the 1895 in 450 marlin. It ups the 45-70 by a good bit.

How's that?

Thanks everyone, I'm really enjoying reading about the information you're providing. Big bore lever actions are something I know nothing about.

Am I right, when I assume that the 45-70 can be reloaded to a higher velocity with the same bullet than the 450 Marlin can in the Marlin lever action?

You know not what you speak of. Loaded to the same pressures, these two are ballistic twins. Not much imagination went into creating the 450 Marlin as it's predecessor was the 458x2 American created in the early 1960s by Frank Barnes. The only difference is the Marlin case is ever so sligtly longer and its belt thickness is .109" wide as opposed to the 375 H&H class magnum belt, which is .082".

The 458x2 American, 450 Marlin and the 45-70 all do the same thing out of a tube feed lever gun when loaded to equal pressures. They would all do the same thing when loaded to max pressures for bolt gun use or if they were fired in the Ruger No. 1.

In a nutshell, there is no difference except the 45-70 is 130 years old and widely recognized as the best of the bunch in terms of reloading data and commercial ammunition availability. All will push 405 grain bullets out of a Marlin lever rifle at approximately 1900 fps, which will deliver some stout recoil. In a bolt or Ruger No.1 they can develop around 200 fps more velocity with the 405 class bullet and make close to 4,000 ft-lbs of ME.

Now how is the 450 Marlin better?

rossi, actually all do pretty much the same thing in tube fed lever guns when each is loaded to their potential. To reach that potential in lever guns the 450 Marlin is actually loaded to a higher pressure than the 45-70, due to less case capacity and a smaller cross-sectional area interfacing the bolt face.

Jackfish,

What was that pressure difference? 40Kpsi for the 45-70 due to its larger cartridge base dia. vs 42Kpsi or 44Kpsi for the Marlin with the smaller .513" cartridge base.

Not to answer for Jackfish...The Modern 45-70 is rated at 40,000 CUP and the SAAMI for the 450 Marlin is 43,500 PSI.When the same bullet and powder are used the 45-70 will hold a "Slight" velocity advantage over the 450 Marlin.

The difference in case capacity of the 450 Marlin and the 45-70 with Winchester brass when filled to the top with water is 6.8 grains and it diminishes with Starline and Remington brass.

There is nothing the 450 Marlin can do the 45-70 in a modern firearm cannot either.There basically equal in a sense but different.Both great guns and cartridges.Jackfish is on the money again.

Jayco

It is interesting how over a few short years things have been overlooked. The 450 was brought on so that people that didn't reload could get the performance from the 1895 Marlin , that folks that do reload can get. Hornady put the oversize belt on the case to insure that someone didn't slip one of those rounds into a trapdoor.