Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats GreyBull Precision?

I don't know that it wouldn't have fouled anyway.. but having used 11 other barrels of the exact same make on our rifles prior to this one.... the ones broken in did not foul.

The main point though is I"ve never had breaking one in hurt anything... and its done while setting the gun up on the bench here. I"m kinda lucky that I have benches at 100,200,300 and 600 right out my door here, so its just as easy to grab the gun, scope and tools and go do it and test some loads right away.... 1-5 single shots to get it centered.. and a few 3 shot test groups... settle on something, grab a 5 shot group.... You can't hurt a tube if you clean it correctly... correctly though is the catch....

Thanks, but you didn't answer this part.

"If breaking in a barrel simply cleans up reamer marks left in the throat, wouldn't the fouler barrel have "broken in" eventually??? In other words, if it fouled because you didn't do the break in to smooth the throat, why did it continue to foul after you shot it enough to smooth the throat??"

dave

Well,, if nothing else, JohnB got lots of exposure for his advertising dollar!

Posted by 02/24/02
Darryl_Cassel

Hello Boyd and Sealsniper

How's things going over here?

You seem to have some Non-believers or the usual "unethical" comments being said.

Maybe I can shed some light on what I have read from other posters.

Being probably the elder person around the fire tonight and on this forum, I can assure you that what Boyd speaks is VERY true and is being done more and more every year. You don't have to agree with it but, it is still a part of the hunting sport and becoming VERY popular.

The problem with most old time or short range hunters as we call them, is that, they are set in their ways, and are NOT open minded to change.

When I was intruduced to Longrange hunting in Cameron County PA many, many years ago, (Have not missed a buck season in 41 Years now) I was open minded and wanted to learn everything I could from the fellows I knew that had done this for so long. I tagged along and got a real education.
Up to that point, I had hunted and killed game all ways and I still do, even bow hunting in my tree stand.

After a trip or two with those LR boys I was hooked. Now I prefer longrange hunting to any type I have ever done in the past and have been VERY successful at it over the years.

At 62 I can still climb the mountains quite well to retreive my game either in PA, West Virginia or Colorado where we LONGRANGE hunt and have for the last 13 years running, for elk and Mule deer. We kill at extended range on elk also and yes, we use MK bullets because we want the MOST accuracy and high ballsitic coefficient bullets we can get. By the way, they do open on game quite well at longrange.

I won't even begin to tell you how far we have killed game because some of you won't even believe Boyds kills and he is relativly new to the sport. I am an old timer at it now and have killed a lot further then Boyd has to date. He will get to the longer yardages but, that takes time. I had the pleasure of meeting Boyd last year at Williamsport. He and Butch Keen came to my place in Driftwood just 2 or 3 weeks ago for a tour of our longrange area and my shooting area where we can stretch the bullet out to 3000 yards from my property.

Anyone whot thinks we don't have the equipment to kill at extended range can think again. Our equipment list totals about $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 worth of needed items to make sure we do it right. By the time you invest in a Military laser Rangefinder $3000.00, a rifle that cost from 4 to 6 thousand dollars a good set of bigeyes (normally military ship binoculars) and all the other items needed, your wallet is empty for a while.

We are not the 3 day a year hunter that grabs his rifle from the closet and goes hunting for 2 or 3 days and calls this hunting. We shoot all spring, and summer in 1000 yard matches at Williamsport ( My wife and I have missed only two matches in 14 years) and we also shoot woodchucks longrange all summer getting ready for big game. The animals are not targets to us, they are the same thing as they are to the short range shooter. A GAME ANIMAL. Our goal is to kill as quickly as possible as we all should strive for.

A question was asked about energy at 1000 yards, lets go to 2000 yards to answer that.
With my 338/416 Rigby IMP and a 300 gr SIERRA MK bullet coming out of my 37" barrel at 3310 FPS, I still have at 1000 yards --2101 FPS velocity and 2942 FPS of energy left. That's more energy by far then the 30/06 has with a 180 gr bullet at the end of the muzzle.
At 2000 yards I still have 1266 FPS and 1068 FP of energy. Thats more then the 30/30 has at 100 yards.

We hunt in teams of at least two and we have NEVER lost an animal yet in all these years..

Gene Williams you were right on with your explanation concerning the RELAXED animal who never even heard a shot. When an animal is hit (lets say the middle of the rib cage) by a short range shooter, the animal hears the muzzle blast which in turn, turns on the adrenalin and he will run for ever because he has just had the hell scared out of him. When we hit that same animal in the same area, he NEVER heard a thing and will just lay down and die on the spot. They respond totally different and that's what the short shooter can't seem to understand.

If anyone is still in doubt, think of all the arms companys that have tooled up to sell LR rifles such as the Sendaro, Larado, Sako Inter-continental and others. The longrange way is here and if we can help the new shooter/hunter to do it correctly, we will surely try.
It's not for everyone but it sure is getting popular.

If there are still any doubts get hold of Butch Keen at --Keenvisionvideosuscom.net--.
Boyd has his phone number i'm sure. Butch has made a truly fine Longrange video that is 1 hour long. It shows the actual vapor trail of the bullet right into the animal and many one shot kills on deer in PA and West Virginia. I think his longest shot on the video is 1350 Yards. The tape is $20.00 or $25.00 and to those that doubt what we do, look at the tape and watch how it's done and then you may just get a better understanding.


Pass the hot dogs please, the fire is about right for roasting now.

Darryl Cassel
PR and Information Officer
The Original PA 1000 Yard Benchrest Club





dave

I hope John sells tons of his rifles and has to raise his prices to regulate the supply/demand.

Anytime I see a product in my field selling near the top of the pile, I think it's GREAT!

There will always be those trying finding a way not to justify how OTHER people spend their money. Constantly telling others where to find the lowest price on everything. Yet, when these same people go up for a review at work, I'd bet they NEVER tell their boss that they don't need a raise, and they'd be happy to do more for less money.

Yet, they're happy to do their part to try and keep the prices in the free market of custom gunmaking down. I'd guess I could understand if it was my TAX money paying or subsidizing the gunmakers wages, retirement, health insurance, vacation pay, sick days, kids college education.



If anyone wants to jump in and pay just my (or John's) insurance bill every month, please feel free to do so. If not, why criticize someone who prices their products in a manner that allows them to pay theirs?

As for the long distance shooting critters...
If you're comfortable doing it and have the equipment, experience and confidence to do so that's fine with me.

If you don't have confidence in your ability to do this DON'T tell others it's somehow unethical. My guess is that more critters run off shot inside 100 yards than outside 500 yards.

That is a good idea since I have a 4.5x14 Leupold on a .264 WM that shoots Bergers real well.

+1
Its a dim-o-crap thing.
They like to tell people how to do stuff,
they dont know anything about.

dave

This has been a very interesting, I have been guiding hunters for big game and varmint for about 40 years.I am also a gunsmith and built custom Rifles, mainly hunting rifles.We killed everything with four power scopes, then the six power came along and we thought we died and went to heaven.Things they are a changing--Opics have been the biggest changes to to hunting world. Bullet makers are also keeping up there end of things.I have been working with the Nightforce guys now for a few years and as you read all of the comments about long range shooting--hunting ect. there is a lot to learn.Its great to have a place like this to share what others have done or learned.There has been some very good points made by all sides.Long range shooting with hunting type rifle is here to stay, if you want to get into it--as you can see there is a lot to learn.I am building a shooting ranch, it will have stations like a golf course and medal targets at differnt ranges out to 2000 yards. We have two lodges to stay and get together in the evening to share your results--over a beer as someone said.I have never been a fan of best of the west and they did try to book a hunt with us, but of course didn't want to have to pay.We have been on the outdoor channel a few times and know all about that. But they have started this long range hunting--shooting and I have a lot of hunters that want to learn all they can about it. Start with TARGETS, not big game animals! We can control amost everything about shooting except ADRENALIN. Shoot straight!

Dogcreek Outfitters .com
Wickens Gunsmithing

need one
from 02/24/02

Well, I thought this was a HUNTERS campfire not a shooters campfire. Seems as though we are being invaded by long range shooters that couldn't carry their equipment 100 yards without taking a break. A hunting rifle doesn't weigh 15 to 30 pounds and binos don't take a strong tripod to hold them steady. JMHO if you are a responsible hunter you don't need a range finder to shoot game, if you do it is too far to be responsible and people that play with a life for their enjoyment have MY contempt. Long range shooting and equipment is enjoyable when it is accomplished in the correct mannor. How many people, do you think, that buy a license to hunt can afford equipment like you describe and when you talk it how many do you think will try and stretch their hunting rifle range to any animal they see, especially the young new guys. Personally if I were interested in long range shooting at animals I would go over to that board for the information.
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Darryl Cassel
from 02/25/02


Need one
Nobody ever said you or anyone else should buy this equipment. I mentioned it as to let you or anyone else know we are VERY prepared for the long shot when needed and have all the neccessary equipment. We practice all year to be able to use this equipoment correctly. You know the old saying, practice makes perfect.

Lets compare our equipment to the Doctor who wants a fine rifle and pays $5000.00 or more to have his Sauer highly engraved because he likes fine looking rifles to carry in the woods and shoot it 50 or 100 yards.

Hunting styles is a personal decision to make by anyone. The amount he spends on the style he chooses and equipment he buys is nobodys business as long as the equipmnt meets all State laws pertaining to hunting game.

We also have long barreled rifles with bi-pods that are light weight (10# and good to 1250 Yards) in which we pack our Freighter Back-packs with light "bigeyes", a small tripod, thermos, food and carry our equipment out to far ridges (that we have previously pre-ranged the yardages on a picture) to survey the far mountains all day. This is not unlike the the hunter that sits or stands on his favorite deer spot in Pennsylvania or any State. We just do it at greater distance.

You don't have to walk or ride a horse all day to call it the "ONLY way" EVERYONE should hunt.

If your preferance is to do that, fine. Ours is to kill the game clean and at ranges you can't believe mainly because you may not have been around the longrange groups or have no desire to try it. That's fine too.

You hunt your way and we will hunt ours because we enjoy it and know what our rifles are capable of doing way out there. Most short range shooters have NO idea what their rifle's are capable of. We have a 11 Lb rifle class at Williamsport where those with factory rifles shoot at 1000 yards. You would be surprised at the groups and the bullet energy that is maintained at 1000 yards from these factory rifles.
Remember, most of us started hunting the way you do until we learned there are other ways.

Hunting game is a personal preferance and that's why the game comminsions offer so many different seasons and game animals to eleminate. The way you choose to do it (within the laws and rules) is your decision to make. Sort of like, you hunt your way and we will hunt ours.

We are certainly not trying to convert you to our ways. We just want you and everyone else to know that, Longrange hunting is becoming VERY popular and we will gladly try and help anyone who wants to know how we do it.

As a last point of interest.
Longrange hunters have NEVER had a hunting accident or caused the wounding or death of another hunter. The short range hunters can't say that at all, especially with their snap shots at game running in the woods.

Through our "Bigeyes" we know where EVERY piece of Orange is on the far mountain/s and will NEVER shoot if another hunter is within 1000 yards of that animal. No game animal is worth hurting another hunter over and I mean NO animal.
I personally have waited all day till a hunter left the mountain so I could kill a bedded elk we picked up at first light.

There are no "kill yardage limits" in the game law book in any State I'm aware of.
There are NO moral yardage limits as to how far or how close one wishes to hunt and kill game.
Kill is kill and dead is dead.
Your way is fine for you and our way is fine with us. We are all after the same final result, That is to find and kill the animal we are after.

We have never lost one yet and that's considering a "bunch" of elk and deer that we have killed over the years.

Darryl Cassel

I Agree Kill is Killed, Dead IS Dead.

I also KNOW 'Wounded is Wounded, Unrecovered is Unrecovered.'

Practice will hopefully minimize the 2nd line, for most.

Thanks for the GREAT post JRG!!

One of the best I've read recently.

1 thing I can't understand is why it is considered bad form to post in another persons FREE classified that their price is too high but it is perfectly acceptable to some to post that the price of a item from a PAYING advertiser is too high?

I graduated from SOTIC in 87, the M24 was still on Remington's drawing board but we had the new Leupold scopes (Ultra, later renamed MK IV) They started out, and have always had, from day one, a "custom" elevation dial, graduated in meters for the 173gr 308/7.62mm. That was because Leupold asked MSG's Boucher and Lambert what they wanted, and that is what they said military snipers needed.

Yes, environmental conditions can cause this to change, but it doesn't change THAT MUCH inside 600yd, where a sniper or a hunter will take the vast majority of shots. That's what they make data books for. Interestingly, I remember one of the biggest variables we had to contend with was the highly temp sensitive ammo, which was then loaded with 4895, now will much less temp sensitive RL15.

Yes, the scopes had mildot reticles, we used them to range and to dope wind, we dialed the elevation. When I stumbled on J Burns on the Best of the West show years ago, I said, he's doing the same thing I was taught in SOTIC almost 20yrs prior, except having a laser rangefinder makes it precise enough to hunt ethically.

Take a Knee so your saying the custom dials work well up to 600 yards? Or did I miss understand something?

Dink

JRGunmaker,

As I am sure you are aware trying to be the lowest bidder is not the best business plan. It tends to reduce ones longevity in a very competitive market.


Thanks for the well thought out post.


Just got back from the range and it looks like I get to go hunting this weekend.

8 of them with finale zero all dressed up and ready to ship on Monday. Living where I do is good for some things but a pain to ship.

The G30, still in the white, at the back of the pack needed one more day before coating but she�s running now. The 264s sometimes need just a little more time before they begin to behave.

The ratio there is pretty close considering G30s to Rem 700. 2 G30s and 7 Rems.

Caliber ratio is also fairly representative in 7 7mm and 2 264s.

No, what I'm saying is the accumulated error gets worse the farther out you go. Off-axis ammo, off-axis chambers...everything adds up, including any error in your custom dial due to elevation/temp/etc.

US Army doctrine was for us to be able to deliver a high probability of a lethal hit on a standing man out to 600yd, and given the ammo of the day (way over MOA in most lots) and extremely limited range time, an NO LASER RANGEFINDERS then, this was an achievable goal with 1800 rounds and six weeks of training, over two of which were non-shooting training days, IE parachute infil/FTX, hide construction, planning etc.

What I'm saying is being able to hit a deer or an elk at six or seven hundred yards, with today's ammo, laser rangefinders, and trued/tuned rifles like Greybull and others produce, is an accomplishment but it ain't the stunt that a lot of campfire knuckleheads make it out to be, and it ain't that hard to do. You don't have to attend Camp Perry for 20 years or have the surname of Hathcock to pull it off, and those who say differently simply don't have a clue. You DO have to get some range time, and resources like Burn's "How to Shoot" DVD's give you a template to do so.

And yes, I think custom dials (elevation) are the way to go for a hunter. At most you would need two for each rifle, big deal. Leupold is giving CDS dials away.

Nice assortment of wares!

Take a knee thanks. I have all the best of the west dvd's and shoot to 600 yards but I have standard target turrets. I am really thinking about trying one of the custom cds turrets and wondering how good they really are.

Dink

Knee, can accept 600-700 yds, 800-1200 plus, is to me where things truly get squirrely, but what do I know.

Success to all, in all forms, stay safe and have fun.

We agree, and, based on Burn's DVD's, I think he does also. He states repeatedly you should never take a shot at game that you haven't made repeatedly, in the field, in practice. IE, field position (bipod, off your pack, etc). 1000 is doable but, as COL Cooper used to say, "That is way out past FT Mudge".

I think practice at a 1000, if you are lucky enough to have such a place, is a great idea, it'll really teach you what the wind can do to a bullet.

Like Dirty Harry said, "Every man's gotta know his limitations".