I noticed that GreyBull Precision is the new sponsor of this forum. I was wondering if anybody knew anything about the company. Has anyone used them for anything? Is there a rep here as a member?
Kind of impartial towards Greybull Precision, but I'd assume Mr. Burns is smart enough to determine what his market will bear.
If people were buying a product I was selling at a pace I was content with, I'd be hesitant to lower the price. If they're not buying, well.... maybe I'm asking too much. I'm sure the market will sort it out.
Can't say a new Ford Super Duty is worth $60K either, but the same principle applies.
I do like the Greybull reticle far better than anything Leupold has to offer for LR shooting.
I am a little confused. When I asked Rick if we could sponsor the custom rifles forum he guaranteed me there would be nothing but sweetness and light coming from the members.
He also told me that all of the members would then order millions of dollars of our products with no questions just because we were a sponsor of 24hrcampfire.
Are some of you insinuating we might have to justify our prices based on the performance of our products???
You�re not actually saying we have to keep producing the most effective optics and hunting rifles are you???
This seems like crazy talk to me.
I paid big, big dollars (alright it was pretty reasonable) for your loyalty without any questions and am just a little insulted anyone would question $6000 for a custom rifle.
It is almost like some of you might expect a $6000 rifle to actually be worth $6000 and perform better than say a $4000 rifle.
If some of you don�t get on the band wagon and do the right thing I might have to ask Rick for a refund. I just have to catch him before he uses our check for a trip to Botswana for elephant.
On a side note we are working very hard on the backordered optics and rifles are shipping at the fastest pace ever.
Thank goodness some guys just believe what they see with their own lying eyes.
Looks like 6k gets you a turn key long range rifle, with 100rds of ammo. I'm not rich enough to spend that kind of money on just one rifle, but I'm sure it's worth it to the guys who work 80 hours a week and don't have the time to dedicate to precision reloading.
Welcome John. Glad to hear business is good considering many are struggling with the poor economy right now. And after reading your reply, I think you've got the attitide to do just fine around here.
Gee, get a sponsor and the trolls have a riot. I'm not of the class to be a Greybull customer, but hey, people have a right to buy or not buy John's output. This IS America, or at least will be again soon enough....
Sponsorship gets their name and website under the link and that's probably about it! Just like a banner add but in a much better place.
I'm unfortunately not going to spend $6K on anything with only one barrel that doesn't shoot water bottle sized cartridges Proud for those with the means to do so!
Don't know if Rick "needs" sponsorship on forums, but if it helps keep the best board on the net going stronger and better I'm all for it!
Won't be buying any $6k Sisk guns either but have e-mailed Charlie with a question recently and was very appreciative of his time to answer and may in the future send some work his way, glad to know he's backlogged worse then the welfare line in Obama's greatest fantasy.
Never heard of Greybull or any names associated with them, but glad to have them here and hope they contribute and get a good return on their investment.
I had the pleasure of meeting John at SHOT Show a couple years ago. Damn nice fella and had some really good looking rifles. Haven't had the chance to shoot them yet, but I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't still be in business if he hadn't been able to satisfy his customers over the years, to include pricing.
Its not that I'm not bringing anything to the table - just been busy watching the "Best of the West" hunting show..................
I do not support Greybull as a sponsor; with their long-range precision "shooting" at game animals, I feel that they promote unethical sportsmanship, but that's just my opinion and everybody has one, just like azz holes.
John, you've been involved in this industry for quite a while, correct?
I remember your name being mentioned years back in a few of Seyfried's articles in G&A. One of those was about the 6mm MachIV that he played with. Same John Burns?
I really wish this feller well. And I am glad he is sponsoring this forum. But like most, if I am dropping 6 grand on something, it isnt a rifle. I just dont believe in pushing these "long range" hunting systems. Because "average joe" will believe that just because he owns this system he is automatically a LR expert. All he has to do is range, dial, and shoot. PRACTICE never enters the equation. And that my friend is a SLOB hunter any way you slice it. With todays technology, rifle capability outweighs shooter ability by a long shot. While the products sold by the sponsor certainly make engaging targets at long ranges simpler, simplicity is NO substitute for practice, practice, practice. Because until the shooter has sent enough rounds downrange at extended distances to know what happens between the muzzle and the target, he may as well be throwing rocks.
The 6mm Mach IV taught me that no matter how fast you go the bullet still drops.
You didn't learn that in grade school from that guy hundreds of years ago....what was his name? Newton I think.
Just razzin ya'.
I had a similar learning curve with an invention I was working on. I was told at the onset that it would be perpetual motion and you can't do that. After six years of effort, prototypes & money spent I came to the same conclusion.
While I do not have anything against L.R. shooting, I have often wondered how one can reasonably assess the quality of a game animal at 500+ yards in order to warrant the slinging of a bullet in its direction.
I really wish this feller well. And I am glad he is sponsoring this forum. But like most, if I am dropping 6 grand on something, it isnt a rifle. I just dont believe in pushing these "long range" hunting systems. Because "average joe" will believe that just because he owns this system he is automatically a LR expert. All he has to do is range, dial, and shoot. PRACTICE never enters the equation. And that my friend is a SLOB hunter any way you slice it. With todays technology, rifle capability outweighs shooter ability by a long shot. While the products sold by the sponsor certainly make engaging targets at long ranges simpler, simplicity is NO substitute for practice, practice, practice. Because until the shooter has sent enough rounds downrange at extended distances to know what happens between the muzzle and the target, he may as well be throwing rocks.
Very true and what makes me jealous of westerners.
They can just drive 15 minutes from most towns, set up a target on BLM land and plunk all day long at LR targets!
Look at those videos and all of that wide open space!
SU35 said: I feel the same way about bow hunting. Far more animals are shot and never recovered.
Last week I watched a hunting show where a trophy grade Whitetail came into view and had an arrow sticking out of his back. He appeared healthy & well but I felt bad for it.
I've watched John's video series and he stresses being able to make shots from field positions repeatedly before attempting that shot on live game. I don't believe the equipment influences "slob" hunters that much. An idiot doesn't often need a reason or technology to do what comes natural to him or her. Just my $00.02 worth.
As do I. Not at all arguing with you Dober. Are we to listen only to the positive attributes and refuse to accept the negative input of a particular matter?
Example: When I first began cruising this forum, I was amazed at the praise heaped upon the Kimber rifles. So I decided they were worth a look. After reading every post I could about them I was almost ready to try one. Fortunately I saw one or two small threads from those who had spent their money and rued the day they bought the Kimber.
I decided, from that negative input, that I was unwilling to take even the most remote chance that it could happen to me. Now that I have handled a Kimber or two I don't see what all the fuss was about. I wouldn't have one.
I was thankful to be able to: a) consider the negative input with an open unbiased mind b) spend my money elsewhere on a rig that I considered a more solid choice c) consider anothers opinion without adopting it as my own
It is not popular on this forum to have an "up the down staircase" stand. I was never one to be swayed by popular opinion. And, I am not implying that you do. I know better.
I remember reading articles in the pre-LRF days talking about how good westerners were at judging distance compared to easterners, how to use a football field as a reference to practice judging range, maximum point blank range for best use of rifle for long range, how to use your reticule on the animals chest to guess range, boat tail versus flat base for long range, variable versus fixed for long range.
How about giving the courtesy of silence if you cannot provide appreciation.
Kinda reminds me of someone who can't stop biching about Tikkas every chance he gets...over and over and over.......
Maybe he'll read his own words.
Tikka isn't a paying sponsor of this site Einstein!
Use the whole quote.
Besides, not one of the people complaining about GreyBull reported actually using one. I used and owned a T3 and found it to be a POS which wasn't worth the $399 I paid for it.
Kinda reminds me of someone who can't stop biching about Tikkas every chance he gets...over and over and over.......
Maybe he'll read his own words.
Kinda reminds me of someone who can't stand to hear any experience based criticism of the stuff he uses. When someone asks for opinions on the plastic fantastic T3 I'm giving my experience. Get over it.
How about giving the courtesy of silence if you cannot provide appreciation.
Kinda reminds me of someone who can't stop biching about Tikkas every chance he gets...over and over and over.......
Maybe he'll read his own words.
Tikka isn't a paying sponsor of this site Einstein!
Use the whole quote.
Besides, not one of the people complaining about GreyBull reported actually using one. I used and owned a T3 and found it to be a POS which wasn't worth the $399 I paid for it.
The discussion was over the listed price, not the quality nsaqam. Maybe you need to wipe the brown stink off your nose and buy this precision greybull. Show your support!
How about giving the courtesy of silence if you cannot provide appreciation.
Kinda reminds me of someone who can't stop biching about Tikkas every chance he gets...over and over and over.......
Maybe he'll read his own words.
Tikka isn't a paying sponsor of this site Einstein!
Use the whole quote.
Besides, not one of the people complaining about GreyBull reported actually using one. I used and owned a T3 and found it to be a POS which wasn't worth the $399 I paid for it.
The discussion was over the listed price, not the quality nsaqam. Maybe you need to wipe the brown stink off your nose and buy this precision greybull. Show your support!
You gonna come wipe it Stoney?
Sorry for trying to show a little respect to Rick and the people who make this site possible.
You must have had a Tikka lemon because the 3-4 Tikkas Ive owned in the past shot extremely well. Guess once you have a bad experience, you never give it a second chance. Kinda like me with A-bolts.
I think it's good to see folks pushing the envelope for hunting rifles. I don't need it here in N. Texas, but for those who want/need a rifle capable of pulling far-away game a little closer they fill a niche.
It's no different than buying a Saleen/Callaway/Ruf modified car instead of a Nissan Sentra, buying a Patek Philippe/Breguet Swiss watch instead of a Timex at Wal-Mart, or buying a Cessna 150 instead of a restored P-51D Mustang.
Just curious but if our rifle outperformed everything else out of the box how much should it be worth??
Are you implying your Precision rifle outperforms everything out there?
Depending on the components and builder is how I justify the price, although making a rifle 'outperform another rifle lay's a huge part on the shooter them self. You being a highly experienced shooter could probably make a out of the box Sako shoot just as well as most custom's. Or this Bat action w/Bartlein barrel which can be had for approx $3000.
I am not implying but am flat out saying our rifle outperforms anything else out of the box.
The picture shows a rifle for aprox $3000 with an optic for $2000 so now we are at $5000 with no barrel break in, no load development, no custom DCT and no ammo.
I absolutely guarantee our systems will outperform that rifle under real field conditions.
I will also say that is a very nice rifle. Be happy you have what you want.
I am not implying but am flat out saying our rifle outperforms anything else out of the box.
The picture shows a rifle for aprox $3000 with an optic for $2000 so now we are at $5000 with no barrel break in, no load development, no custom DCT and no ammo.
I absolutely guarantee our systems will outperform that rifle under real field conditions.
I will also say that is a very nice rifle. Be happy you have what you want.
Sorry, + scope.
JBurns, Obviously a few feel your rifle is pricey considering the components you list, but I will agree with Calvin, for a "turn key" rifle with 100 accurate rounds ready to go can be a sweet deal for a lot of folks.
Welcome to the fire, enjoy the criticism, praises, knowledge and especially the entertainment this site offers. It's all fun around here!
I am not implying but am flat out saying our rifle outperforms anything else out of the box.
The picture shows a rifle for aprox $3000 with an optic for $2000 so now we are at $5000 with no barrel break in, no load development, no custom DCT and no ammo.
I absolutely guarantee our systems will outperform that rifle under real field conditions.
I will also say that is a very nice rifle. Be happy you have what you want.
Sorry, + scope.
JBurns, Obviously a few feel your rifle is pricey considering the components you list, but I will agree with Calvin, for a "turn key" rifle with 100 accurate rounds ready to go can be a sweet deal for a lot of folks.
Welcome to the fire, enjoy the criticism, praises, knowledge and especially the entertainment this site offers. It's all fun around here!
Post pics & videos of those kills for us.
I reckon for 6bones I'll have Ole FeldKamp and/or Bansner doing something REALLY special for that kind of cheeze HAVE MERCY!. Just saying! Heck yeah I'd like to see some of them LONG SHOT videos as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't really understand how someone who buys a long range system should be considered a "slob hunter". I don't offer a system like John Burns does, but in the last 10 years I've put together a lot of Long Range Rifles and the people who buy them almost exclusively are highly dedicated shooters. Most of them are not rich city dudes, a lot of them are blue color guys. I wonder sometimes how they get the time and money. Long Range shooting is like a disease without a cure, but I doubt an armchair hunter would ever get that.
Ok, I am going to offer 3 new custom rifle packages.
As you can see, you can choose your weapon depending if you want to fire standing (pump action), kneeling (break action - Spring Piston), or prone (Rear bolt action), as they are all custom tailored for each position.
You can fire 100 rounds of your own ammo, and our packages are guaranteed to outperform anything else you will find at any price. 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed.
While I do not have anything against L.R. shooting, I have often wondered how one can reasonably assess the quality of a game animal at 500+ yards in order to warrant the slinging of a bullet in its direction.
While I do not have anything against L.R. shooting, I have often wondered how one can reasonably assess the quality of a game animal at 500+ yards in order to warrant the slinging of a bullet in its direction.
Spotting scope? Binoculars? I could tell one hell of a billy from 2 miles with 10x binos.
The picture shows a rifle for aprox $3000 with an optic for $2000 so now we are at $5000 with no barrel break in, no load development, no custom DCT and no ammo.
SLG88, I'm sure your still stinging from that classic "in your face, think before you talk" reply by greybull.
Cracks me up how people who are bored out of their minds sit on the internet all day and rag on others.
To all the negative posters,You dont want to buy to buy a greybull rifle? Then dont..But keep your comments to yourself and mind your own business.This stuff really gets old..
Just curious but if our rifle outperformed everything else out of the box how much should it be worth??
From a business perspective, it is worth whatever the market will bear, just like everything else. If you could sell all you can make at $10,000, then that is what it is worth.
As the flagship of our product line, the Precision 105 is the result of 20+ years of development. The only criteria we had developing this rifle was that it had to be the best. Of course the perfect hunting rifle/optic combination needs to be deadly accurate, but that's just where the story begins. It also needs to have the features to perform in the real world. Every aspect of the 105 has been developed to work under hunting conditions.
Sure it's a tack-driver on the bench, but in the field is where it really shines. Each Precision 105 includes a Precision Hunting Optic (PHO) which is perfectly matched to the rifle's specific ballistic data and the customer's preferences regarding average hunting altitude and temperature. Simply range the target, dial the Drop Compensating Turret (DCT) to the yardage, use the Precision Reticle's built-in wind compensating marks if needed, hold dead on, and squeeze.
Features and Specifications
Available Calibers: .243 Winchester, .264 Winchester Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum
Action: Squared and trued Remington 700 (McMillan G30 also available +$800.00)
Optic: 4.5x14 Precision Hunting Optic, 50mm Objective, side focus/parallax adjustment, Precision Hunting Reticle, custom Drop Compensating Turret, pinned mounts. Built specifically for GreyBull Precision by Leupold.
Stock: GreyBull Precision Hunting Stock Learn More
Fittings: Sling swivel studs and optional quick connect bipod attachment
Ammunition: 100 rounds of GreyBull Precision custom loads. Our high-performance ammunition features precision VLD hunting bullets, which offer the highest ballistic coefficients available in each caliber & bullet weight, and deliver the best retained energy and wind drift performance for extended ranges. The "delayed grenade" effect of these bullets provides amazing terminal performance and quick, clean kills.
Weight: 10 pounds including optic (also available with a lighter barrel contour resulting in a 9 pound finished weight w/optic)
Finish: Matte black ceramic coating over stainless
The picture shows a rifle for aprox $3000 with an optic for $2000 so now we are at $5000 with no barrel break in, no load development, no custom DCT and no ammo.
SLG88, I'm sure your still stinging from that classic "in your face, think before you talk" reply by greybull.
Kenneth, obvioulsy your a retard because comparing greybull components rem700, Bell & Carlson stock, no name barrel, no name trigger, to a custom Bat,Borden, Lilja, Kreiger, Jewel trigger ect, is insane.
If anyone has a sting in his face, that would be yours from your boyfriend t-bagging you.
As I quoted Calvin before, Im sure there is a market for this "turn key" ready to hunt rifle and I'm sure the box trucks will be backing up for a bunch of delivery's. I will be looking forward to hearing some review's from our campfire members after purchasing p105 rifle.
Ok, I am going to offer 3 new custom rifle packages.
As you can see, you can choose your weapon depending if you want to fire standing (pump action), kneeling (break action - Spring Piston), or prone (Rear bolt action), as they are all custom tailored for each position.
You can fire 100 rounds of your own ammo, and our packages are guaranteed to outperform anything else you will find at any price. 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed.
Well it seems like Rick won�t be giving us a refund for the sponsorship.
I don�t think he should use words like �man up� �quit whining� or keep talking about something called �The Free Market� when talking with a paying sponsor.
I guess you guys are stuck with us for a while.
All joking aside I have to agree that 6K is a whole lot of money to most of us and some guys rightly question what would a guy get for that price and is it money well spent.
Calvin pretty much hit the nail on the head as to what our clients for the rifles have going in their lives. We deliver a turnkey system that will allow a hunter to start practicing from day 1 without worry about:
1. Component selection 2. Optic mounting 3. Load development 4. Barrel break in 5. Drop data
These guys love to hunt but building the rifle is not where they want to spend the few hours they have away from work and family.
On the other hand we sell about 10 scopes for every rifle. This customer already has a rifle that shoots very well and they want the ability to adjust the zero of their rifle to the range they are shooting.
The customer supplies us with:
1. The bullet they will be using 2. The actual muzzle velocity of the individual load in their individual rifle 3. The general altitude and temp the rifle will be used under 4. Depending upon the bullet selected we would also like 1 set of drop data
a. The customer precisely zeros the rifle at 100yds b. Set the data gathering turret to 0 c. Rezero the rifle at the furthest range available d. Record the number of clicks required to change the zero from 100yds to the long range zero e. Record the exact atmospheric conditions at test site
The scope is based on the Leupold 4.5-14x50mm Side focus and has the following custom features:
1. Etched glass reticle with 1 MOA spaced hash marks for precise wind drift
2. Elevation target turret with custom thread pitch to produce a true 1/3 MOA per click adjustment with 20 MOA per complete revolution
3. Custom Drop Compensating Turret (DCT) etched in yardages with the 10 MPH wind drift for each range etched above the range a. The wind drift is represented in MOA and corresponds with the custom reticle b. Each turret is laser marked with the customer name, cartridge, bullet, muzzle velocity, and altitude and temp
All the internal work is done at Leupold and the optic still has the Leupold warranty.
We do all the DCTs in house on our laser.
Dave7mm,
We use the best barrel available. We don�t specify who that is because we never would blame the barrel maker if there ever was a problem with the whole system.
We have relatively few choice concerning components compared to most of our completion. Instead we build the complete system to a known performance level.
I can�t guarantee the system will work like everyone see in our videos unless I pick the parts. We are not the builder for guys who love to choose every little detail.
We are the guys for the hunter looking for a no excuses turnkey package and we have found our niche.
Second focal plane
Slg888,
The elk never sees the name on the side of the action nor does he care who built the barrel. The bullet either hits the mark or it does not.
If we started a new shooting competition where the winner was determined buy the names associated with the individual components we sure could cut down on all that money wasted doing the actual shooting, but it might not draw many competitors.
When the rubber meets the road our customers judge us by how the complete system works and if it delivers what we promised. It certainly is an easier business model to try and ride on the backs of your subcontractors and vendors but just not the direction Greybull Precision wants to pursue.
Your business is booming, you're selling your product, you're customers are delighted, who are we to complain!? Keep up the good work Mr. Burns, you've found a great niche and are filling it adequately!
The amazing thing to me is nobody howls when they see the price tag on Kenny Jarrett rifle at 6K+
Or a synthetic stocked Echols "Legend" at $12k +
Or a David Miller Marksman with a laminated stock at 20K +
You get the idea.
If the losers whinning on this thread cannot afford such wares- then buy a cheaper rifle somewhere else.
Quit acting like jerks and denegrating the value of another man's hard work. No riflesmith in this country- sponsor or not, owes you guys a damn thing.
AND BY THE WAY..
The cheapskates here should check out what it cost for a SPONSORSHIP on this site.
The amazing thing to me is nobody howls when they see the price tag on Kenny Jarrett rifle at 6K+
Or a synthetic stocked Echols "Legend" at $12k +
Or a David Miller Marksman with a laminated stock at 20K +
You get the idea.
If the losers whinning on this thread cannot afford such wares- then buy a cheaper rifle somewhere else.
Quit acting like jerks and denegrating the value of another man's hard work. No riflesmith in this country- sponsor or not, owes you guys a damn thing.
AND BY THE WAY..
The cheapskates here should check out what it cost for a SPONSORSHIP on this site.
Hmm, well if business was booming, why complain on spending money where you get your feet put to the fire (no pun)? And want a refund? I thought it was charitable gifting?
Ok, kidding aside...."On a side note we are working very hard on the backordered optics and rifles are shipping at the fastest pace ever."
Not to be rude, but I personally never recall hearing of this company or their products, not that my wallet is thick enough, but I have heard of Kenny Jarrett, Sisk, and others. I must be out of the loop.
Fact is there are alot of very knowledgable shooters/hunters on this site, and I am sure many like myself would like the J. Burns to 'expound' upon his guarantee and claim of 'OUTPERFORM' as one statement to SLG says, 'Just curious but if our rifle outperformed everything else out of the box how much should it be worth??' #4400086 - Yesterday at 08:51 PM
SO that statement says IF, yes IF our rifle outperformed.
Now we come down a little bit, and this is where I did a double take and had to re-read, 3x.
I was awestruck someone has the confidence to state:
#4400166 - Yesterday at 09:34 PM
I am not implying but am flat out saying our rifle outperforms anything else out of the box.
I absolutely guarantee our systems will outperform that rifle under real field conditions.
Hmmmm, I pulled out a 6mm BR #1 Ruger, from a box shipped from Pac-Nor, I shot a .498 3 shot group at 330 yds. Dropped a deer at 400 yds, center punched the lungs, he did not know it was from a rifle costing under 2k (Kepplinger trigger and 4200 scope). Killed alot of other game just fine with it as well.
Built another later on a Stiller/Bartlein/Jewell smithed by a Hall of Fame BR shooter, put the first 3 into 1/4", yes one fourth of an inch, at 200 yds.
That's how I define performance. So when others here think 'performance' perhaps they too are thinking accuracy.
The scope/turret system, looks/sounds like a CDS system to me that Leupold will free of charge send you calibrated caps for your cds scope.
But back to 'outperform' ...I'd be more inclined to think the rifle I had built just recently using the same smith I used above, w/Jim Borden action/Bartlein/Jewell WILL outshoot a 700 with component choices that as far as we know are selected for keeping production costs low, not the BEST money can buy, given a rifle is costing 6K.
But I digress, my rambling....sorry. Back to the question I would have.....since everything hinges on 'OUTPERFORM anything else bar none' something must be amiss here. Not selection of the best of components perhaps, but a statement of OUTPERFORM.
Therefore I would like that word defined and quantified. How do you 'MEASURE' yours vs. your competition......accuracy? Reliability? Just curious.
I think if everyone here is man enough to dish it out, then they can receive fair questions to find answers that substantiate claims of superiority, rather than 'CLAIMS' of superiority. Some here may have been taken aback by your assertiveness in your product claims of performance, while you feel on the defensive to justify your position. I respect all here.
Some people buy dreams, promises, fantasies of shooting game 600-1200 yds.
Others simply want to buy the best their wallet allows, but ALSO want to know what they get in return, components, and results, which add up to value for their dollar.
So Mr. Burns, I am FLAT OUT asking, What do you PROMISE that forms the basis that is MEASURABLE, able to be quantified, that gives you the ability to BOLDY CLAIM your product OUTPERFORMS all else?
We all would like to know, are you selling dreams, REAL SUPERIOR RESULTS, or Bull.....as this is getting 'Grey' and I am looking to decipher, Precision, or Bull....
I will end this post and say this, I respect W.V. Zwolle and have no qualms about his shooting at 603 yds on elk. I do wonder if the shot was 'staged' for that range, or did you all 'back up' to get it over 600 vs. under 600, but it matters not. What I DO feel 100% confident in saying, that WVZ would have had the SAME results using a $650 out the box Ruger that has proven to shoot give/take 1/2" with Hornady factory ammo, would have taken that elk JUST as well.
Even a 1" grouping rifle, shooting say 6" groups at 600 yds, will hit 3" from POA.
I just don't get this 'OUTPERFORM" everything out the box. That elk would have been JUST as dead, just as fast, just as far away, had it been shot with a rifle 10% the cost (lets say 15% for cost inc. a 3-9x Leupold) of that 6k custom.
BTW, Dave, sorry meant to respond to your post, yes I will make sure you get the 'prone' model, for 6k.....a night..I mean day sorry. Must observe hunting regs
BTW, Dave, sorry meant to respond to your post, yes I will make sure you get the 'prone' model, for 6k.....a night..I mean day sorry. Must observe hunting regs
Dave, you can have this one for the price of a Tikka....Lol
I'm all for free enterprise, and making whatever buck you can.
I guess the "guaranteed out of the box rifle" part is where you (GreyBull) lost me.
Along with the "un-named manufacturers" part.
If I'm dropping $6000 on a rifle, I'd like to think that I get to have at least some input on barrel, trigger, etc, etc, rather than take somebody's "I know best, don't ask questions, just take this rifle" statement.
On another note, to get to the level of consistency and accuracy that GreyBull will sell me, I'll have somebody build MY rifle, at MY specs, for half, or less, of that price tag. It's not voodoo or rocket science, or some "secret". Lots of guys are up to building rifles of that class, at well less than six grand. Please don't tell me that your rifle is the only path to long range precision....
If somebody wants to buy a turnkey, ready to roll, package, more power to them. I'm not real impressed with the "out of the box" mentality that appears to be such a selling point.
But the owner's attitude is starting to wear on me already. Kinda came on with the "Bull" in the china shop mentality, just trampling through...
You can question our prices, choices of components, sexual orientation or whatever without bothering me, but if you ever post a picture like that again on thread I have to respond to we will have ourselves a problem.
I can�t even type with that on the screen.
65BR,
Our measure of performance is lethal first round hits under real hunting conditions.
Wayne had never before even attempted a shot on game beyond 500yds. He did using our system only after extensively testing it on paper, steel, rocks, whitetails, coyotes, and mule deer.
Wayne is not in the least enamored with long range shooting on game and it is possible he will never again choose to shoot that far but the first time he did he used the setup you see in the video.
I can accept your reply Mr. Burns, and agree on the 100 yds, as I sight dead on and test at 200.
No doubt, it seems Wayne has an M.O. of preferring rather modest tools for his trade, citing using a 2.5x Leupold on a 7/08 carbine for a light handy rifle perfect for much of his style of hunting.
On another topic, what I disagree with you on sir is ADVOCATING, Condoning, or promoting extreme long range shooting at game animals. I love hunting and have no problem with killing. I love shooting and have fun long distance w/all firearms. Yet I don't have an obsession or desire to seek out extreme range kills on game animals. I sleep much better at night refraining or getting closer.
Obviously I am NOT in the industry, therefore have no bias, but I feel a personal responsibility to hunt within MY limits, and these videos of 700-1200+ yd kills are just a bit much for me to digest.
I respect your opinion, and wish you and your business well. Do us all a favor and encourage those wanting to shoot game that far, to do ALL possible to kill cleanly w/their 1st shot, or we all lose in the end.
Youtube.......another technological concept, w/pros and cons.
That avenue of feeding ego's is surely driving this sport...otherwise it would not be a preferred source of media to promote the makers agenda. Realize, that video is seen and judged by all, inc. anti hunters, and anti gun.
Just some thoughts. Again, wish you the best sir in building the best equipment your customers can buy, and hopefully instilling w/in them a sense of responsibility for ethical hunting.
from how he handled the ankle biters here so far, i kinda like the guy.
Just curious who you think the ankle biters are?
I've got a pile of rifles with equal or better components built by people that know a thing or two about accurate long range rifles, and I haven't spent anywhere near $6000 on them. That was the point of my post and I stand by that.
There are many guys on this site that could afford Mr. Burns rifle, me included.
What we are saying is that for $6000 these components are not top notch. Not saying that a Rem 700 action, B&C stock, and a Leupold scope are junk, but compared to a BAT, Defiance Machine, Borden or Surgeon actions, Manners or Mcmillan stocks, Jewell triggers, Krieger, Bartlein, Broughton, Lilja, or Rock barrels, Williams or Badger Bottom metal - no comparison!!
If we asked any good capable gunsmith, he could build you a rifle with a Rem 700 action trued/squared, good quality barrel, B&C stock fully pillar/skim bedded, tuned Rem 700 trigger, Rem 700 bottom metal, & then you topped with a top-notch Leupold scope with custom turrets made to your shooting specs - IT WOULD NOT EVEN BE CLOSE TO $6000!!
Hell, add barrel break-in, custom load development, & 10 boxes of custom loaded ammo - still nowhere close to $6000!!
I'll ask this of Mr. Burns, if he's willing to do so, give us the line-item break down of how he came about $6000 for his price. If he does great, if not, I understand also!!
some of you bastards are thick..read what Calvin wrote a few pages ago..very small paragraph, but no one seems to comprehend it...not that it surprises me any.
from how he handled the ankle biters here so far, i kinda like the guy.
Just curious who you think the ankle biters are?
I've got a pile of rifles with equal or better components built by people that know a thing or two about accurate long range rifles, and I haven't spent anywhere near $6000 on them. That was the point of my post and I stand by that.
Read this, and 300MAG's post below it.
That's the point of what the "ankle biters" are saying.
I've got rifles that I know, no doubt, will run with these GreyBull wonderguns.
And there is nowhere near $6000 in any of them.
This guy acts like his are the only accurate rifles out there, and that us mere peons are lucky to be able to have them. I just see other ways to get there, more affordably.
I've heard of GreyBull Precision for quite a while now, but am not familiar with Sisk. I don't think not being familiar with a company has anything to do with the product they put out. I think it just depends on which circles you run in, and where you get your information from.
If his customers are happy, then the company has nothing to prove to me. If I was interested in purchasing their product, then I may have questions on what I am getting, but as I already know that I do not live in an area where long range shots are common and therefore do not need the product, they again, have nothing to prove to me.
Please direct us to the gunsmith you will be choosing to assemble your turnkey rifle. I would love to see his prices to assemble such a shooting system.
I propose you have him assemble just such a system and we have ourselves a little shooting competition. You with your bargain setup and me with my way overpriced 2nd rate component system.
We play a game of rifle horse (Kind of like the basketball version) and loser pays for the other guys rifle.
All shots must simulate some sort of realistic shot a hunter might be presented with while hunting big game and all shooting is done from field positions.
When would you like to schedule the event and we will of course video and post the results.
On a side note at the moment we use Jewel triggers but are always on the lookout for components that offer an advantage over what we currently use.
If you don't want to pay $6k for his or anybody else's rifle don't! There are a lot of people who will and don't begrudge the man for making a profit! What are y'all a bunch of obama socialists!
Crap I saw a laminated stock the other day and posted about it they wanted $4K I think just for the freakin stock...
I'm not willing to, but I don't hate the man or his products! As mentioned earlier I'm not willing to fork up for Sisk or many of the other fine smiths mentioned in a thread, but I don't begrudge them because there are some that will.
I've heard of GreyBull Precision for quite a while now, but am not familiar with Sisk. I don't think not being familiar with a company has anything to do with the product they put out. I think it just depends on which circles you run in, and where you get your information from.
If his customers are happy, then the company has nothing to prove to me. If I was interested in purchasing their product, then I may have questions on what I am getting, but as I already know that I do not live in an area where long range shots are common and therefore do not need the product, they again, have nothing to prove to me.
Please direct us to the gunsmith you will be choosing to assemble your turnkey rifle. I would love to see his prices to assemble such a shooting system.
I propose you have him assemble just such a system and we have ourselves a little shooting competition. You with your bargain setup and me with my way overpriced 2nd rate component system.
We play a game of rifle horse (Kind of like the basketball version) and loser pays for the other guys rifle.
All shots must simulate some sort of realistic shot a hunter might be presented with while hunting big game and all shooting is done from field positions.
When would you like to schedule the event and we will of course video and post the results.
On a side note at the moment we use Jewel triggers but are always on the lookout for components that offer an advantage over what we currently use.
I asked for a line-item break down of how you came up with your price of $6000?? Would like to see how you came about your price!!!
You're telling us that a Rem 700 action trued/squared, B&C stock, your barrel from secret manufacuturer, Jewell trigger, and a Leupold scope with custom turrtes & some loaded ammo is worth $6000??
Couple questions for you:
Are you the actual smith on these rifles??
Why must an animal always be shot at 600+ yards?? You can't hunt yourself into a closer range for a better shot??
300MAG Did you also ask Mr. Near to give you a breakdown on why his scope mounts are $300-$500? How about a breakdown of the parts which go into a Nightforce scope which makes them worth $1500+?
No manufacturer owes you or anyone else that kind of information. This is America, you're free to spend or not spend your money as you see fit.
300MAG Did you also ask Mr. Near to give you a breakdown on why his scope mounts are $300-$500? How about a breakdown of the parts which go into a Nightforce scope which makes them worth $1500+?
No manufacturer owes you or anyone else that kind of information. This is America, you're free to spend or not spend your money as you see fit.
I'm also free to ask for a break down of components also!!!
If you look at my post that originally asked for this break-down, I said if he gave the it then great, if he decided not too, that was fine too, I understood!!
Mr. Burns is putting his money where his mouth is and offered to buy you a custom turnkey rifle if your expensive component rifle can beat his rifle in a contest of field position shooting.
Sounds like it should be easy for you to take his rifle with your wonder rifle.
After all, you can afford it, you said so yourself.
Mr. Burns is putting his money where his mouth is and offered to buy you a custom turnkey rifle if your expensive component rifle can beat his rifle in a contest of field position shooting.
Sounds like it should be easy for you to take his rifle with your wonder rifle.
After all, you can afford it, you said so yourself.
I don't own one, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I do teach economics and line item prices are irrelevant. If it was my business the only thing I would consider is price elasticity of demand.
plenty of guys don't have the time, patience or knowledge to pick their own components and do proper load development and drop charts.
BUT they do have the $$ to let someone else do it for them in a first class way so that their time (which is finite) is better spent actually shooting and/or hunting.
Nothing in the world wrong with that. Supply and demand guys.
Mr. Burns is putting his money where his mouth is and offered to buy you a custom turnkey rifle if your expensive component rifle can beat his rifle in a contest of field position shooting.
Sounds like it should be easy for you to take his rifle with your wonder rifle.
After all, you can afford it, you said so yourself.
Never said I had a wonder rifle, now did I ????
The rifle you already own won't do it since it has to be a turnkey rifle which you take directly from the box and with NO additional work, such as scope mounting or load development, begin the competition.
That is what Mr. Burns is selling, long range accuracy with turnkey convenience.
plenty of guys don't have the time, patience or knowledge to pick their own components and do proper load development and drop charts.
BUT they do have the $$ to let someone else do it for them in a first class way so that their time (which is finite) is better spent actually shooting and/or hunting.
Nothing in the world wrong with that. Supply and demand guys.
You are exactly right!! No one ever questioned this, they questioned the price with the components used, thats all. Hell, if Mr. Burns sells a million of his rifles, good for him!!
Mr. Burns is putting his money where his mouth is and offered to buy you a custom turnkey rifle if your expensive component rifle can beat his rifle in a contest of field position shooting.
Sounds like it should be easy for you to take his rifle with your wonder rifle.
After all, you can afford it, you said so yourself.
Never said I had a wonder rifle, now did I ????
This might qualify... would be a good one to show up with. Probably not cheaper than John's "crappy" rifle built with all those < top shelf components. Can't wait for the video!
Multiple guys have posted on this thread how I came up with my price.
I asked for it. Other free people choose to pay it.
It seems hard for you to comprehend that the intrinsic value you place on a product might be different than what another free person might place on the same thing.
I asked for the smith that would produce a comparable product at a reduced price for you and you don�t have an answer.
I asked if you were willing to put your money where your mouth was and you don�t seem to like that idea much.
Why do you even care what I charge as my products are obviously not for you??
I think you kind of got started on this thread with an axe to grind and now you have painted yourself into the corner so to speak.
Take a breath.
It really is not the end of the world if I sell a few rifles and scopes. There will be plenty of components left for you to get whatever you value for your hard earned money.
Ps I am a poor hunter and would go home empty handed if I didn�t shoot far and snipershide is only rumored to be where the wannabes hang. It really is a bunch of Tier1 operators with tons of experience at the sharp end and I value their opinions highly.
plenty of guys don't have the time, patience or knowledge to pick their own components and do proper load development and drop charts.
BUT they do have the $$ to let someone else do it for them in a first class way so that their time (which is finite) is better spent actually shooting and/or hunting.
Nothing in the world wrong with that. Supply and demand guys.
Or the place at their home area in say the congested east coast to even shoot LR, but they may have $$$ to get a nice hunt out west and upon arrival with a package gun run it out to long ranges with that 100 rounds then go hunting!
I'd love to go out and tune up some coyotes like that "bedded" coyote video!
#1 - With all respect, I really don't care what you charge for your rifle!! I think its overpriced, but others may not, so be it. I just wanted to see your justification of a $6000 price tag. Maybe its justified, maybe not - thats what I wanted to see/understand, thats all.
#2 - No axe to grind at all!! Never met you, never used your products, no problem on this end!!
#3 - No problem shooting with you, if thats what you'd like to do. I never questioned your shooting capabilities, ever!! I questioned the reasoning behind your pricing - see #1. Give me your justification of your pricing - maybe I'll see where you're coming from?? I'll give you my home & cell phone #'s if you'd like to give me a call & discuss your shooting system with me.
#4 - Not many smiths out there do a "turn-key" set-up such as you. Only other I know is GunWerks, but I do know of many great gunsmiths that build highly accurate rifles!!
#5 - I hope you do sell alot of rifles, more power to you. Its a tough market out there, I wish you the best with GreyBull Precision.
#6 - You have to admit, negative or postive, you got alot of exposure for your advertising dollar!!
his justification is that people are willing to pay that much... he could chuck a stock savage into a 2x4 and sell it for 6K if people would actually buy it! let it go man!
#6 - You have to admit, negative or postive, you got alot of publicity for your advertising dollar!!
[bleep] ya!
He should be doing a monthly drawing for a free rifle like our other sponsor. Although if I won, I would sell it in the campfire classifieds and put the $800.00 in my pocket!.
his justification is that people are willing to pay that much... he could chuck a stock savage into a 2x4 and sell it for 6K if people would actually buy it! let it go man!
Now there's one that might interest you. You could take it to Alaska and hit rocks with it while someone cuts wood, and then blow it up!!
Ya, have you seen the prices on classifieds lately? It takes 3 days & 400 bumps just to get a "I'll take it" anymore. Ask Jeff (300FAG) he is the bump master.
Ok, good buddy.. ole pal, when you taking us Elk hunting?
Ya, have you seen the prices on classifieds lately? It takes 3 days & 400 bumps just to get a "I'll take it" anymore. Ask Jeff (300FAG) he is the bump master.
Ok, good buddy.. ole pal, when you taking us Elk hunting?
slg888,
You & my mom just got back from Arby's & you're drinkin Old Milwaukee again, ain't ya??
I think for some rifle nuts, the process of building a custom rifle is the majority of the fun. Learning about what works and what won't, and then applying it all with some measure of success is what makes their wheels go 'round. For others, it may be only the end resut that is of concern. They only want to be the racecar driver, not the mechanic, not the engineer.
I kinda see these Greybull rifles as the "crate engines" of the rifle market. The homework is done by someone with experience, the parts are optimized to work well together, and the turnkey performance is guaranteed. That well-built, yet expensive crate engine may be perfect for the man who wants to bolt it in and run, but it may hold little interest for the grease-monkey who dreams about camshaft specs, intake manifolds, and stretching his dollars. He wants to build his own from the bottom up, even if it might not turn out as nicely as that high-end engine he could have ordered with a phone call. Perhaps one day he has the means but no longer has the time, and it is then that he appreciates a turnkey engine for what it is. At that point, it may sound like a bargain.
300MAG Did you also ask Mr. Near to give you a breakdown on why his scope mounts are $300-$500? How about a breakdown of the parts which go into a Nightforce scope which makes them worth $1500+?
No manufacturer owes you or anyone else that kind of information. This is America, you're free to spend or not spend your money as you see fit.
Please look at GreyBull an american trying to run a small bussiness . The way the ecomomy is these days please give him credit for leaving the dream and being succesful at what he enjoys doing.
If people want and are willing to pay the price of his rifles more power to them. I have a number of Jarretts that have costs me $1,000s They probably do not shoot any better than one that could be made by a smaller unknown smith. But its my money and it is something I have wanted for years
If people are trained to shoot long distaces succesfully that is great and I am envious that they can shoot that far
In closing please look at him as man that is tryuing to make a business instead of sitting at home collectiing unemploymet. Also thinks of the other US companies that he is buying his materials from that are putting money in their pockets
I think it is time to give him credit an dclose this post
I think for a few of us here, we do not disagree andrews1958, and I wish the man well. At the same time, many may believe in seeing reality for what it is, behind any possible smoke and mirrors of the glory of long range shooting on game.
I accept we all have a right to pursue the shooting and hunting sports as we see fit in America, so long as it's legal. Likewise, Americans have a right to be responsible, ethical, sportsman IF they so desire. OR they can be slob hunters...shooters, who may maim and wound game needlessly giving others a bad rap.
I do hope and wish whoever uses his system, or a similar system, OR sees ANY long range kills on video and get the burning urge to kill something whether they feel like 'Ishi the Yani Indian who taught Saxton Pope and Art Young', Daniel Boone, Tom Young - Buffalo Hunter, or Carlos Hathcock - One shot One kill military sniper......that they take a 'mindset' with them in the field that they should learn what they are doing, before they apply techniques and equipment on game. That mindset hopefully will put their endgoal at 1st shot, clean kill when it comes time to squeeze.
Changing winds, game that may move, and uphill/downhill angles might give them different results than what they see on these videos of long range shooting of game. This needs to be understood IMHO.
Mr. Burns, I wish you all the success sir and all shooters/hunters alike who pursue the art/sport of long range shooting of game.
In my case I sent an old (1970's vintage) Remington action to Gre-Tan Rifles and had a complete "blueprint" job done, action and bolt trued, bolt sleeved and timed, Gre-Tan firing pin and bolt shroud installed, firing pin bushed, and a Schneider barrel installed (I supplied the barrel)for about $850.00. Made my own pillar bedded stock and the whole thing came to under $1,500.00 with a Farrell base, using an existing 6-24x scope. Performance is exceptional, with .5" or smaller groups the rule.
I have neither loyalty or concern for businesses or brands, settling on performance versus cost relative to performance, the formula for value. I can easily match any custom gunsmith's product, with the exception of dedicated competition benchrest rifles, using Savage actions, prefit high-end barrels and commonly available stocks and parts.
Still, there is a place for the high-end rifle smith; I wish them all well.
As for Camera Land, I shop all retail outlets on-line based on price alone. All scopes are warrantied by the manufacturer so service is not a problem. I just checked a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x X40 Multi-X AO price at Camera Land = $519.99 or $520.00, with delayed delivery. Another vendor sells the same scope for $479.00 with uncanny delivery - in my case they arrive overnight or within two days if ordered early in the week. Both offer free shipping. This is not a slam against Camera land, rather it's a market fact. Each vendor has inventory, overhead, regulatory, labor and indirect expenses to cover in the prices they charge, so the more efficient on-line distributor without brick and mortar storefront costs will be cheaper. Also Camera Land is more a general merchandiser offering a larger array of optical goods and other products including everything from Aquapac waterproof gear to photo printers, adding inventory control and shipping expenses.
Purchasing an advertisement on a forum board does not guarantee user preference, but it does provide an opportunity for inclusion in the vendor selection process.
Based on the phone calls I need to clear up a few things concerning the rifle Wayne used for the shot.
We do not build rifles in 6.5 Creedmoor. Magnum Research installed the barrel and then bedded the rifle in our stock.
I did do the breakin, mounted the optic, and collected the drop data for the custom turret.
If you want a 6.5 Creedmoor I can say they did a very good job, I bore scoped it before I started shooting and the chamber was centered and the throat was smooth. It was chambered using a SAMMI spec chamber with live pilot in one of their Carbon wrapped barrels.
The gun shot very well with the ammo supplied to me from Hornady.
The reason we don�t do the Creedmoor is I feel the 243 Win 105VLD is more versatile.
After we see how ammo and brass availability turns out we may add it to the line but it will not be for a while so don�t hold your breath.
Short answer is if you really want a setup just like Wayne�s (that was his personal rifle) call Magnum and order the rifle from them. We can supply the optic and stock.
This will be cheaper but you will have to do some of the work yourself such as mounting, data, load development if you choose not to use factory, and breakin.
Hopefully this will answer a reoccurring question.
I keep seeing people complaining about the price of GreyBull rifles and constantly bashing John for shooting long distances at game. It would really be nice to come to a site like this and be able to discuss or research hunting/shooting issues without a lot of childish banter from certain members that detract from hunting sites because of their own limitations and preconceived ideas. State an opinion if you want and then let it go for GOD's sake! Here are some facts and some opinions of mine:
Cost of a custom rifle WITH AN ACCURACY GUARANTEE = 2500 TO 3000 dollars
Price of a box of ammunition = Average maybe $40. Multiply that by the number of boxes needed to properly break in a new barrel, find a load that particular rifle likes, then get the drop data at various ranges.
Cost to buy a scope with custom turrets/rings/bases from Leupold = 1000 - 1200 maybe?
Now add the time, money and knowledge it's gonna cost you to (PROPERLY) mount your scope (I believe they lap rings for you), go to a range, properly break in your barrel, get data out to whatever range he gets it to for you, then work out all the little pain in the butt bugs that will inevitably occur. After this they wrap it in a nice little package with bow on it (just kidding about the bow I think) and send it to you. Lets not forget the guy has also gotta feed his kids or himself if he has no kids.
I have custom rifles that I went through all these steps on and I have an ass load more money than 6000 invested in some of them, but I learned a hell of a lot in the process, so to me it's worth it. Now after all this stuff is done for ya' all you gotta do is go out, LEARN THE ART, PRACTICE A LOT in real conditions and enjoy your rifle.
These rifles are for people that either don't have the desire or time to go through all these steps.
As far as John Burns shooting at distances that some consider "unnecessarily long". If all everyone did was the same old thing that everyone else always does we as hunters or as a country would never have gotten to where we are. Those guys have probably got a lot of people back in the woods and spured more interest in hunting than anyone has in a great while. For this I am very thankful.
I spend thousands of dollars every year on ammo, and barrels because I love to practice, and to hunt more than anything else. A big part of hunting for me is not how close I can get, but to know that I"m good enough that when I hunt if I see it, and it's within my comfort zone (aint' as far as John's but it aint' close either) I'm gonna bring meat home. But guess what, I'm buying a muzzleloader too because I've never tried that type hunting, it's a new challenge and as long as I'm in the woods I'm having fun.
So try to stop dogging someone else's idea of what hunting, or just what's fun is to them and maybe try to learn a little from 'em.
GOD knows hunters need to stick together now cause the flaming liberal left and anti gun whackos are doing everything they can to f^&k the sport/lifestyle up that supposedly we all love, not to mention what they are tying to do to our country in general. Ever hear someone say merry Christmas on the phone when you call a business during Christmas time any more?
And for you John Burns, keep that sense of humor. That is a rare and refreshing commodity these days.
I have custom rifles that I went through all these steps on and I have an ass load more money than 6000 invested
Hummm....1 post.
Happy Shooter, new member huh? Welcome. How about for your 2nd post, show us your custom rifles. You can post them in 'blueprints or on this thread. You must have some nice customs with an azz load more than $6000 invested.
re: HappyShooter - new guy on the 'fire and new at hunting are different things.
Also, I don't own a GreyBull, and maybe never will, but I wouldn't bash a man that makes a quality product that people buy, and I NEVER see on gunbroker 2nd hand. As in I have a search that sends me e-mails when something gets posted and I've never seen a GreyBull rifle listed.
I think one of you nay sayers ought to take him up on his challenge and out shoot him with your rifle vs. him shooting one of his.
I think for some rifle nuts, the process of building a custom rifle is the majority of the fun. Learning about what works and what won't, and then applying it all with some measure of success is what makes their wheels go 'round. For others, it may be only the end resut that is of concern. They only want to be the racecar driver, not the mechanic, not the engineer.
I kinda see these Greybull rifles as the "crate engines" of the rifle market. The homework is done by someone with experience, the parts are optimized to work well together, and the turnkey performance is guaranteed. That well-built, yet expensive crate engine may be perfect for the man who wants to bolt it in and run, but it may hold little interest for the grease-monkey who dreams about camshaft specs, intake manifolds, and stretching his dollars. He wants to build his own from the bottom up, even if it might not turn out as nicely as that high-end engine he could have ordered with a phone call. Perhaps one day he has the means but no longer has the time, and it is then that he appreciates a turnkey engine for what it is. At that point, it may sound like a bargain.
I say this is SPOT ON!
If you want and can afford a greybull then I'd say go for it. If you don't then don't and go buy something else.
I'm proud to see a firearm company in the US have good success and be able to sale their product to willing customers that seem to enjoy the goods.
At times, I (a hunter) honestly believe our worst enemy can be ourselves (hunters).
I have custom rifles that I went through all these steps on and I have an ass load more money than 6000 invested
Hummm....1 post.
Happy Shooter, new member huh? Welcome. How about for your 2nd post, show us your custom rifles. You can post them in 'blueprints or on this thread. You must have some nice customs with an azz load more than $6000 invested.
Judge a man by how many posts he has on hunting website?.....thats funny right there!! No, thats lame.
How many ranches have you or the BOW guys been kicked off of now for wounding animals, JB?
You'd have done better to spend your $ on a site where the members are uninformed dumbazzes who can't shoot, don't know or care when they're being ripped off, and enjoy having smoke blown up their a$$e$.......
i would have saved a pile of money if i'd just bought a GreyBull right off the bat instead of learning this schitt by trial and error. those errors get expensive. thirty years and untold $$ of "independent research" and my current long range rifle is, guess what, a 10# 700 with a Jewell trigger chambered in .264 Win.
Let's cut JB some slack. OK, so many of us aren't into the long-range thing but that doesn't mean we can't learn something and welcome another campfire member.
My last take on this schit!! I'm saying what I feel, if it bothers some of you, then so be it - at least I spoke from my heart, not what I think others want to hear.
#1 - JB, the best to you & Grey Bull Precision, seriously!! I don't agree with your pricing, but I'm just one guy. What works for me, doesn't work for the next guy & vice versa.
#2 - No one has ever questioned the shooting abilities of JB - Hell, he shoots schit at big time distances - well over distances I have ever shot, none-the-less killed something.
The only thing questioned was the price of his rifles with the components used. Like it or not, they are what they are & only YOU can decide if it meets your needs. For me, it doesn't fit my needs - no problems!!
No one has personally attacked JB - only questioned his cost. Evertything in life has positive & negative sides to it, even custom rifles.
#3 - I have not heard many other "thank yous" to the other sponsors of this site. Hmmm, could it be that JB was on a TV hunting show?? NO OFFENSE TO JB, but its seems some on here like to kiss his azz. We have a ton of sponsors on here & not many "thank yous" were thrown out until the "TV Guy" became a sponsor!! Now alot want to get on their knees and thank him - it must be nice to be on the side of the TV guy??
I personally don't think that is what JB is looking for!! I think he wants to advertise & sell his rifles. Does his sponsorship help us have this great site, hell yeah, but so does the other great sponsors. Thank you to ALL of them!!
In defense of slg888 I can see how he might be a little suspicious of HappyShooters first post. He might have handled it with a little more tact and given HappyShooter the benefit of the doubt.
Slg888 is really just starting to learn what is involved in setting up a really good hunting rifle and the name scribed on the side of the action is not the most important thing, unless you just want to brag to your buddies.
If a guy has the time and knowledge he can do a lot of the the work himself and get a truly great hunting rifle ready to go for less than $3000.
Here is the formula I would recommend:
1. Remington SPS Stainless in 7MM Rem Mag 2. Optic suitable for both close and far shots. You can guess my recommendation 3. High quality synthetic stock. I would recommend the Greybull stock SURPRISE 4. Rugged scope mounts and I would suggest a 20MOA tilt 5. Jewel trigger. Don�t screw around here, just do it right 6. Retumbo powder, Berger 180gr VLDs, Winchester Brass, Mag primers
If the VLDs don�t shoot well when loaded to kiss the leade in the factory throat then either sell the rifle and get another or have a good gunsmith screw on a good barrel with a throat designed to handle the VLDs.
80% of the factory Rem SPS I have tested will shoot the VLDs into � MOA of less when loaded to kiss the rifling.
You will most likely have about 40hrs in to setting everything up and have a rifle that will stand toe to toe with anything in the world.
Some guys have way more time and money invested in rifles that are 400yd guns, at best. It is impossible to learn to shoot at 800yds with a 400yd gun.
The only way anyone is ever going to learn to shoot well at extended distance is to first get a rifle that will perform at extended distance.
Lots of different ideas on how to get the rifle and we can either supply our turn key approach or some of the parts (or none of the parts) for the guy who want the satisfaction and has the time to do it himself.
@ JB- I look forward to reading your thoughts on wind doping and trajectory but to be honest, in my neck of the thick woods if you take a "0" off your ranges you hunt at it'd be more akin to my shots.
Okay jackass, I asked for names and this is your answer.
I have had fun with a lot of the other guys when they offered their opinion. You made an accusation and now can�t back it up.
300MAG has stated he thinks my prices are high and I don�t have a problem with that. He is not really a potential customer and still doesn�t know much about shooting at extended distance.
Heck he just posted in the optics forum about advice on a budget range finder. He is not exactly ready for what we do, but all he had to say was I was high priced. No offense taken.
You on the other hand made direct accusations and have nothing to back it up.
I have no dog in this fight, and will try to offer an unbiased opinion on why so many here seem to have an issue with your pricing. If I were going to "obtain" (from scratch) a "long range precision hunting rifle setup", here's the breakdown for me (and I'll err toward the high cost side of the equation if I do err in my cost breakdown) ...
1. Rem700 stainless steel action - $400 2. McMillan stock - $500 3. Premium match grade SS barrel with flutes - $350 4. True action face, bolt face, chase tenon threads, chamber, fit & time barrel to action - $250 5. Glass & pillar bed bbl'd action into stock - $150 6. Premium set of rings & 20MOA base - $200 7. Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x40 with BDC dials specific for my pet load - $1000 (I hate the 4.5-14x Leupolds, and totally disagree with anyone that says more magnification is necessary, or even very useful, for shooting big game out to about 7-800 yards) 8. 100 rounds of ammo - $250 9. Jewel trigger - $200
The above list comes to a cost of $3300, and that includes "profit" made by everyone involved so far. Now, at the very least I can say that I know that every single component is not only of high quality, but I got to choose them myself (whether solely myself, or after discussions with the smith and getting his input).
Now, if you want, you can still go ahead and add another $1000 for your time in mounting the scope, breaking in the barrel (note: barrel break-in is a joke and totally unnecessary), and shipping the rifle out ... and you're still under $4500.
I also want to make a point about the "load development" that you speak of. You just posted in this thread that all you basically need to do is seat the VLD's to the lands and load up with your "standard loads" and you're 90% done with load development ... so there really shouldn't be much cost involved with "load development" from you guys, especially when you only offer a few chamberings and I'm sure you're pretty well versed on what the load is going to be prior to ever starting the load development.
Now, I want to be clear that I have no problem with your pricing - simply because if people are willing to pay that price, more power to you. I don't want anyone telling me what I can charge for my professional services ... it's up to me to decide what the market will bear for what I offer. However, I don't expect to be able to go out and charge $250/hr when the norm is more like $150/hr... but granted, I would definitely charge $250/hr if people were willing to pay it ...
All that said, I have a few rifles in the safe I've had built that are set up to shoot out to 1000 yards, and all work was done by people other than myself, other than load development ... and none of them cost anything near with you are charging for what I'd consider a rifle built with "lesser" components that what I would choose, and all of them shoot exceptionally well. I guess what I'm saying is that it's hard for me to imagine paying that kind of money for what you offer when there is nothing about your work that is unobtainable via many other avenues.
Let's say you hand built your stocks in house - like Melvin Forbes of NULA ... THAT would demand a premium as far as I'm concerned ... but you offer an off the shelf B&C stock that anyone with a few hundred dollars can simply order off the internet ... get my point?
In defense of slg888 I can see how he might be a little suspicious of HappyShooters first post. He might have handled it with a little more tact and given HappyShooter the benefit of the doubt.
His location of Afghanistan brought the suspicion. Lol
I think we have plowed this ground before but what the heck let�s try it once more.
If you believe such a system will perform at the same level as what I offer I will play the same game I offered to 300MAG. Are you interested??
It needs to be turnkey and ready to go with a receipt from the builder.
If you are doing the work yourself then I guess we are talking apples and oranges.
The deal that you think barrel break-in is a joke kind of sets the tone for the rest of your post.
Considering that you're likely a better long range shot at the 'game' you offer to play, I will respectfully decline. However, if you were willing to have an impartial third-party shoot both rifles as they run the gauntlet of shots, I might consider it.
I have full faith that the rifles of mine I speak of are as accurate and repeatable as what you put together ... I just don't care to take a chance on comparing my shooting ability to yours.
You might be missing the point here. You do not own a turnkey system.
That is our niche. I am sure you have some very fine rifles and they shoot very well. My point is if you want to compare prices please compare apples to apples.
I just posted an example of how to make a system that offers stellar performance for much less money and much more time than what we offer. It is not rocket science.
But if you want me to do the work those are the prices.
Most guys with the income to do that are not really looking for the lowest bidder. They usually are successful in their own business by not trying to be the lowest bidder but by offering the best value.
With all due respect, barrel break-in is a joke of the highest order.
When someone can show that a rifle barrel performed better because it was "broke in", rather than simply being shot, will be the day I'm afraid.
No two barrels from any manufacturer will be the same, even though the brand is the least likely to effect the overall accuracy of the complete rifle. Chamber dimensions in respect to headspace, concentricity, and throat will easily trump the maker of the barrel in regards to the final outcome of bullet placement.
Barrels get broken in by placing rounds on paper and meat on the table. Any amount of extra fluff is reserved for wasting powder and cleaning patches, while impressing friends who frankly don't know any better.
No barrel will undeniably be able to shoot a better group based solely on whether it was dabbled with this or that bottle of snake oil during the latest and greatest version of barrel break in procedures that are hailed to be the flavor of the month.
No one can test the "theory", simply because there are too many factors that enter into the equation that simply make the matter mute. If you "break in" one barrel and shoot a fantastic group, then skip the break in procedure on the next barrel and shoot a lousy group, what have you proven? Reverse that procedure around, managing to shoot the better group with the unbroke barrel and suddenly you've found yourself in a quagmire of sorts.
I've shot and built too many tent stake Remington factory barrels that made bugholes to get too worked up about a barrel brand and or break-in procedure.
Custom barrels do exactly three things: 1)They allow the customer to pick his twist rate. 2)They allow the customer to pick his finish and contour 3)They foul less
Those were purposely put in order of importance as well.
I as well as many others on these boards take a new barrel and clean it up good, stripping it down to bare steel. Moly the bullets and at some point in our life, we might clean it.
I have already posted that there is no way I could give the money for a greybull rifle as much as I would like to so bear with me.
WGM if put together that rifle for $4500 and it does not shoot who do you blame? The smith is going to the blame the barrel maker and the barrel maker is going to blame the smith. I know a new barrel is under $500 but still you will be all of your time and componets trying to make that gun shoot.
I think there are alot of guys out there that $1500 -$2000 premium does not mean a whole alot to and they will pay the money for a turnkey gun.
300 MAG no one is here to kiss JB's azz. Alot of us respect a guy that has killed game on tv from 600 to 1200 yars with out alot bullchit to go with it. He was not afraid to show kills at extreme range and did not care what everyone else's opinion was. Look at the chit storm he takes from everyone here that thinks because they can only shoot 300 yards that everyone should only shoot 300 yards. JB had a great show that when they killed something there was not alot of butt rubbing and dick slapping after every kill shot. Now on the botw everytime they kill something they have a group hug and someone rubs everyone. Just not what I want to see on tv .
One of the reasons I left was no one would rub me!!!
Somethings are just better left unsaid!!!! I heard the Davidson boys left the show so maybe they will have time to come to your shop for a visit....they know about rubbing...
I really don't give a damn what the bore looks like ... Last I checked, the rifle either shoots or it doesn't ...
And to what Triggerguard1 said about break-in and moly, there are a lot of us that use that "procedure" with astounding results ... And results are all that matter ... You've said that yourself
I've got enough spent primers on the subject to give you a year's worth of episodes, but a guy has to figure some of this stuff out on his own.
If your first knee jerk is to the borescope, you have much research to do.
A couple of questions though...
Define "small capacity" and then conclude as to the need for something of "large capacity". Next, what would "full speed" be?
I'm not on here to bust your balls about rifle prices, since its obvious that you're working a niche market, much like a few others in the field are too. You're providing a product that a select few are after and there's nothing wrong with that, but to be fair, lets keep the discussion at a level that promotes education, rather than justification.
I'm not blissfully ignorant by a long stretch and I've not had anyone in recent years talk over my head in regards to rifle development, so lets just stick to the facts, not conjecture.
I say barrel break-in is indeed a waste of time, energy and has yet to be proven by anyone on the face of the planet that it is necessary for accuracy gains for any discipline. From a mathematical standpoint, it is an impossible point to prove and is very easy to shoot holes through...(pun intended).
I honestly don�t know where to begin. If you don�t understand what happens during break-in, ignorance is bliss. Don�t buy a bore scope.
Moly???? Really?????
What you can get away with in a small capacity 100yd gun is very different than a precision hunting rifle shooting VLDs at full speed.
+1 Kinda denotes a lack of experience in what it takes for long range accuracy. To think that someone would actually put that black chit on there bullets is this day and age....... If you hide a problem....it will go away.
When I get home I will gladly take and post pics of my rifle. Just so's you know. Add the cost of the above mentioned steps, then add the additional cost of getting two bad barrels in a row, and the accompanying cost of chambering and I came to a grand total of $7250. If you like I can post pics of the receipts too :-). It shoots great now, but Jesus, once you get so deep in it what else you gonna do?
I honestly don�t know where to begin. If you don�t understand what happens during break-in, ignorance is bliss. Don�t buy a bore scope.
Moly???? Really?????
What you can get away with in a small capacity 100yd gun is very different than a precision hunting rifle shooting VLDs at full speed.
+1 Kinda denotes a lack of experience in what it takes for long range accuracy. To think that someone would actually put that black chit on there bullets is this day and age....... If you hide a problem....it will go away.
dave
Been a while since I had somebody take a shot at the title, but living in Central Oregon's high desert, it sure makes things interesting for those that can and those that just read about somebody doing it.
My door is always open and I'm never against learning a thing or two, if its subject matter that I haven't already covered and conquered.
Long Range rifles need to do more that shoot good groups. The rifle must also keep shooting without needing to be frequently cleaned.
If you use a bore scope you will see that after some # of shots and some # of cleans to bare steel the depositing of copper fouling is greatly reduce per shot fired. This is my experience based on bore scoping a pile of brand new barrels during the initial firings. If you disagree we will just have to agree to disagree.
As that fouling decreases the rifle will shoot more accurate shots in between cleans and be a more useful hunting tool. Now if you want to shoot 50 rounds in between those first cleanings be my guest. If you are using VLDs the rifle will have quit shooting long ago.
After you have gotten to the point the copper has stopped accumulating quickly you should be able to get 75 rnds between cleans.
The second important thing that happens in the initial firing or break in is the velocity stabilizes. It is of no value to chrono the gun and get the drop data until the velocity has stabilized.
This is really basic stuff here guys.
All this takes time. Either the end user does it or the builder does it but somebody has to take the time to fire those shots and do the cleans until the barrel stabilizes.
To think that any rifle shooting a cartridge that will humanly kill elk at 1000yds doesn�t require a break in process is just plain wrong, in my experience. I am always willing to learn and if you wish to show me I would be delighted.
Give me the benefit of the doubt about what? I usually just go to sites for research. Not much on posting, or talking for that matter, so if there is some sort of hunting site etiquette I completely missed it.
I think slg888 thought you might have been in cahoots with me and justifying my exorbitant pricing.
With it being your first post and listing Afghanistan as your location it might have occurred to him I had someone come to the board and write a post such as yours that somewhat supported my position.
In his defense it is not uncommon for such shenanigans to happen on the internet and very difficult to prove.
I hope you are kicking some ass and staying safe for all of us back in the real world.
I honestly don�t know where to begin. If you don�t understand what happens during break-in, ignorance is bliss. Don�t buy a bore scope.
Moly???? Really?????
What you can get away with in a small capacity 100yd gun is very different than a precision hunting rifle shooting VLDs at full speed.
+1 Kinda denotes a lack of experience in what it takes for long range accuracy. To think that someone would actually put that black chit on there bullets is this day and age....... If you hide a problem....it will go away.
dave
I didn't read any but this last page... RE moly.. I don't run mild loads.. I shoot out to 1000 yards in competition.. I win a fair amount of matches I shoot in... I haven't shot a non moly bullet in years. Sure hasn't hurt a thing I do.
So when a rifle is shooting .25MOA and hasn't seen a cleaning rod in over 500 rounds, am I to assume that this is something that would impress you?
A clean barrel won't shoot and I fail to see why cleaning one to remove the copper, which is in fact aiding in the accuracy, gets done as often as it does.
When mine quit producing the accuracy I expect, they get cleaned. The above average hunting rifle would never see a cleaning rod, yet that doesn't stop a lot of folks from working them over on a regular basis.
This is a longtime debate that has stretched across many forums for years. Some are sure their system is the way to go and will back it up with findings of burrs from borescopes, cleaning patches that turn pretty colors and a whole host of other reasons that someone must break in a barrel by doing more than simply shooting it.
I came to my own conclusions by shooting and shooting a lot at ranges out to and in an excess of 1000 yards for many years before the internet was the grail of knowledge. Since that time I've met many other that learned spent primers were the common denominator for solid theories and the rest amounted to nothing more than idle coffee talk and speculation.
When you start to thinking you've got it all figured, you get asked questions like, "when was the last time you calibrated your chronograph?"
I'll leave it at that and let you guys have at it.
Good luck on your endeavors and thank you for the sponsorship here on the site.
Oh, no worries. I am for sure not in cahoots with anyone, but I do have to admit that it was your old videos that got me looking and researching the 7mm round. I used to use Berger 155s in my 300 WM quite successfully. I practiced a lot, then saw that blasted show and decided after researching 7mm/168 Berger ballistics that I MUST have a 7mm., but I could do it cheaper than the turnkey price. I simply had a string of bad luck with barrels, (plus my own stupid superstition about the action and stock). By the time it was all said and done I would have gotten off a lot cheaper by buying one of your previous company setups. But in the process I learned a lot so that softened the financial sting. And I ended up with a beautiful 7STW that is everything I wanted, but more than I wanted to pay. As far as us over here, we try to avoid kicking up too much ruckus cause we gotta try and get all our clients back safely, so far we are doing ok though,
Please don�t let anybody know you practiced. It would ruin my reputation.
If you have the time setting up your own it is worth the mistakes you might or might not make. Now you have something that is more than just a gun.
Some guys have to choose between getting to actually hunt and learning to build guns, heck some guys don�t care to ever learn how to build them they just want to know how to use them.
Get everybody home in one piece.
7 STW,
I shot the STW a lot and had good luck with it.
When we switched to the VLDs we got more than enough power at long range with the standard 7 Rem and a little less recoil and a little more barrel life.
I wouldn�t rebarrel an STW that was working well but after the barrel died I would change it to a 7mm Rem Mag.
I say copper fouling detracts from accuracy and in your experience it aids accuracy.
Where then would you suppose the term "fouler shot" came from?
Barrel break-in aside, clean barrels don't shoot and that's a fact. You can cross-reference that into any shooting discipline that's on or off the books and the answer will remain the same. Disagreeing with that is basically going at odds with every shooter that's ever tripped a trigger and having absolutely zero to back it up with, while trying hard to refute what has been proven millions of times over.
As for the title, I'm just lucky. Some would say there's more to it than that, but with so few years of experience, I'm sure it's luck, regardless of the propensity to see the pattern repeated. I haven't had to hand out any ribbons yet, so I couldn't venture a guess as to the inherent value of the spoils, but I've enjoyed a few nice steak dinners. In all fairness, excuses for loosing do tend to ruin the ambiance of consuming good cow, but that's a cross I've had to bear, though it evens out when the victim brings a custom for dinner.
Whether you like this or that, can't we all agree we just like guns in general???
Sorta like boobs... Some like 'em small, others big, some natural, some fake, white, brown or tanned we all like 'em...
That pics missing something........what the heck is it? OH, an extra 8! That's SLG888s wife
I have to say I COMPLETELY 100% disagree on the necessity or importance of barrel break in when one has a QUALITY barrel to begin with, and yes it's been a debate for years, but more recently as stated above by members w/more experience than I, that also emulates MY results. Patching out carbon fouling on occasion, yes, I do, but to painstakingly go thru some ritual to a barrel that was Hand Lapped, has NOT been required by me to shoot ITTY BITTY groups.
Case in point, 6BR, first 3shots at 200 yds, 1/4", time and again. Another 6BR, 330 yds, .498 group...NEITHER of which received any rigorous bbl break in. Cleaned after each shot for 5-10 shots, after each 3 shot group a few times, and that's it. And that was while I was sighting in, letting bbl cool etc. NOT adding to my range time.
No doubt, a little time spend MAY reduce to some small degree future copper fouling, I have yet to damage or ruin a bbl from 'UNDER Cleaning' or breaking it in. I have seen bbls that were cleaned too often and ACCURACY suffered.
NOW were are getting to the rubber meets the road. Do what the guns accuracy tells you. If it shoots, leave it alone. I had a Sako Forester pitted lightly that would NOT shoot clean, yet fouled, shot VERY consistently accurate, and that is how I shot it, same for a pair of 600s, a deuce and 243.
We should title a future Long Range Game Sniping Video, GUNSMOKE: The Smoke and Mirrors of LR kills.
THEN we should educate all amateur's, novice's, and wannabees, the TRUTH about wind, shot angles, animals moving, etc. All things that can make things NOT go right. THEN we play previously filmed footage of LR shots, that were EDITED OUT of videos that got to market. Those BLOOPERS.
Let's Show the REALITY, of ALL SHOTS taken, game missed, and wounded.
NOW we are telling it how it is Mr. Burns. You have a product to sell, a right to sell it, at a profit, and for a market that will demand it. That is fine. Such a market obviously exists. Yet, let's speak in REAL terms of LR shooting, and what's involved and the outcomes in the real world. To market your product, and the concept of LR shooting, it is my FIRM belief it is completely irresponsible given the risks to wounding animals, and to a lesser but more serious degree the risks some yahoo that is itching to kill something actually fires at a target not properly ID'd and another human becomes a statistic.
1000 yard elk? You are selling a dream. A Fantasy. Will your 'turnkey system' work? I am sure it has, and will, but HOW consistently HOW often? I am sorry, but I just respect what I hunt more than that, and it's not for me. That said, it is within anyone's right, if legal, to do what they choose is right.
I don't own a borescope, and don't recall an old BR shooter having one either that said, follow results.
A bore scope cannot answer if a rifle will be accurate. UGLY bores can/do shoot, and some pretty ones don't.
That bbl break in comment seems like a marketing ploy, and it begs the questions, just what barrels are put on Greybull guns?
Maybe they NEED breaking in to shoot compared to the bbls I have used in my experience.
Experience is a variable, but there are trends, and I am SURE, when there is no 'agenda' on the table, a bulk of shooters see trends and will agree on seeing many of those, yet here we have someone promoting extreme range sniping of game animals in complete disagreement over things.
I'd be interested in seeing that video, with the Bloopers. To ignore the FAILURES and see the FAILURE RATE in LR shooting, would be giving accountability and honesty in this venture. I have yet to see it demonstrated.
I think on another thread a poster DIRECTLY ASKED about the stats of missed and wounded game. A PC answer was given, never answering the question.
That information is more important to me, than components or price of the system. That's showing the VALUE or ROI a 'system' brings to the buyer.
Is buying into a concept, and/or product for a large premium, that has a large 'Failure Rate' a 'good value' for the buyer? I guess it all depends.
I will say flat out, that my gut says about HALF of ALL shots taken at 700+ yds on game, are either missed or wounded the first shot.
That's my opinion. Anyone else want to make a guess or share a good sampling of data?
I'll be honest here. John seems like an alright fella. I really don't care what he charges for a rifle, or what people are willing to pay. Personally, I know for a fact you can get 2 rifles that shoot equally well in the same hands for the price of one of his. Again, what folks do with their money is their business, and more power to him if can get it.
I agree totally about barrel break in. It is a MYTH. Have broken 'em in and not broken 'em in every which way imaginable. It either is a shooter or isn't. The only way to break 'em in is to run rounds down 'em. Not very scientific.
I also agree about the LR shooting on game. I don't give a schit who believes this when they read it and who doesn't, once you start shooting at the above stated 700yds +, wounding percentage increases dramatically. I'd say for most, 700yds is a very kind estimate. It is in this respect I take issue with JB and the BOW idiots............
I guess we have the barrel break in thing cleared up.
The term fouler shot comes from cleaning techniques and guns that don�t put the first shot from a bare steel clean barrel on to the target.
Use the right cleaning techniques and a good gun and you will start to see first round hits out of a cold clean barrel. I have no fear of heading to the hills with a clean barrel but then I don�t shoot moly
As whether I have anything to back it up do you have any suggestion??
I must have misunderstood; I thought you had a real title in the shooting world. My bad.
2muchgun,
You remain a jackass.
You made the accusations and you can�t back it up. What a loser.
I have not been involved with The Best of the West for 4 years so can�t speak for them.
Again you are a jackass
65BR
As I mentioned in another thread you are beginning to creep me out a bit.
Seriously could you obsess over someone else for a few days and maybe give me just a little breather.
I don�t owe you a response to a stupid unfounded accusation. You either back it up or I will be forced to keep calling you a jackass.
How about you admit you had no idea what you were talking about and simply had a small case of foot in mouth disease and we go get a beer like 300MAG suggested.
Will that work for you?? I hope so because you are probably a decent fellow and I hate having to keep calling you a jackass.
Mr. Burns is putting his money where his mouth is and offered to buy you a custom turnkey rifle if your expensive component rifle can beat his rifle in a contest of field position shooting.
Sounds like it should be easy for you to take his rifle with your wonder rifle.
After all, you can afford it, you said so yourself.
Never said I had a wonder rifle, now did I ????
The rifle you already own won't do it since it has to be a turnkey rifle which you take directly from the box and with NO additional work, such as scope mounting or load development, begin the competition.
That is what Mr. Burns is selling, long range accuracy with turnkey convenience.
Okay but...
How much call can there truly be for a "turnkey" precision hunting rifle? How many duffers truly wake up one morning and say "I really want to get into shooting deer at 900 yards, I wonder if someone makes a rifle that will let me do it?"
Marksmanship takes study and practice, long-range marksmanship requires much more of the same; it's not a path for someone without the requisite time and dedication. Along this path, you will invariably become a rifle loony, stocks, barrels, twist rates, seating depths, etc. all become important to you. Data itself is vital to the long-range marksman, the very reason we all keep reloading, and range logs. There's no way I'd lay out any amount of money for a rifle when the maker chooses to withhold information about its construction.
I think a lot of folks here probably under estimate the attraction these rifles have to many that make a very decent wage and go on two or three hunts a year that cost $10,000.00 dollars or more per hunt, I am not one of them but their is a market for just about everything including hunts and rifles for the wealthy
Let's just cut to the chase, John. You've now dodged the same question 4 times.
You're selling people what amounts to a $3000 package with the scope and charging them another $3000 for "barrel break in" and "load development". When in fact there is little to none of either required because, in essence, you are building the same rifle over and over again tailored to the same load and same scope. That about sums it up, doesn't it? High profit for little work/time invested. What if these people want to shoot something other than a VLD? Or different bullet weight? Then what? Let me guess, they have to pay more money for further "load development" or different turrets. That about right??
The appalling part of the whole deal(more so than your rip-off prices) is that you are telling every dumbphuck out there that doesn't know a rifle from a tent stake that it is okay to go ahead and take long shots at game whether they have the experience and qualifications/skills to do so or not. Just buy one of your overpriced rifles and sling some lead at any range they want. Are you teaching them windage skills? God knows they don't have any skills, or they wouldn't be coming to you for one of your "magical rifles" that turns them into Carlos Hathcock over night.
You can lie to the rest of the folks here if you want, but I know you and your buddies have wounded a ton of critters trying to put your "videos of LR expertise" together. What is your wounds/kill ratio? And you consider yourself a good shot . What about the clueless client who buys one of your rifles? All of your clients are obviously clueless, or they wouldn't be calling you in the first place. How many do these guys wound?
Why don't you just get closer? Are you that schitty of a hunter? You must just smell bad, cuz everything about you and your little "wounding buddies" stinks.
Having my beer now, I'll not devote any more of my time to this trash of a thread.......
Please direct us to the gunsmith you will be choosing to assemble your turnkey rifle. I would love to see his prices to assemble such a shooting system.
I propose you have him assemble just such a system and we have ourselves a little shooting competition. You with your bargain setup and me with my way overpriced 2nd rate component system.
We play a game of rifle horse (Kind of like the basketball version) and loser pays for the other guys rifle.
All shots must simulate some sort of realistic shot a hunter might be presented with while hunting big game and all shooting is done from field positions.
When would you like to schedule the event and we will of course video and post the results.
On a side note at the moment we use Jewel triggers but are always on the lookout for components that offer an advantage over what we currently use.
Sounds like a good idea. Same caliber, same weight rifle, but with a novice behind the gun. That will prove which system is the best. Having two great shots competing would prove who is the better shot not which system is better for the hunter. I graciously volunteer my services to help prove which is better.
As I mentioned in another thread you are beginning to creep me out a bit.
Seriously could you obsess over someone else for a few days and maybe give me just a little breather.
JB, I guess you get creeped out when getting called out sir.
You fail to address many peoples interest in just how many animals were wounded or missed vs. cleanly killed. That's just all I would like to know.
Sorry my persistence is more than your conscious can bear. Just asked for honesty, but cannot get it.
Obviously we agree to disagree, but it's truly a lacking character flaw in my opinion on two counts. One, inability to man up to accountability...the Hit vs Wound/Miss numbers. Two, just plain dodging questions as it pertains to benefiting your business or not.
I hope future LR Game Snipers as I will call them, will fare better than the numbers you surely are embarrased to factually report. I am sure many sportsman will support my feelings in how they view Hunting, even though they may not want to risk getting a lashing by you or a few other supporters.
I have not researched all the videos out there, but the trend seems to be, ONLY extreme distance shots are shown/promoted here. Sad to see that the future of 'what once was hunting' may be distorted and passed on to future generations an illusion of a previous sport resembling a military sniper, and seeing who takes the biggest bragging rights for the longest kill, regardless of the costs in wounded game during the pursuit.
I will pass, and stalk...my game Mr. Burns, not you. Don't get your ego bloated, I have no obsession with you sir.
Let's just cut to the chase, John. You've now dodged the same question 4 times.
You're selling people what amounts to a $3000 package with the scope and charging them another $3000 for "barrel break in" and "load development". When in fact there is little to none of either required because, in essence, you are building the same rifle over and over again tailored to the same load and same scope. That about sums it up, doesn't it? High profit for little work/time invested. What if these people want to shoot something other than a VLD? Or different bullet weight? Then what? Let me guess, they have to pay more money for further "load development" or different turrets. That about right??
The appalling part of the whole deal(more so than your rip-off prices) is that you are telling every dumbphuck out there that doesn't know a rifle from a tent stake that it is okay to go ahead and take long shots at game whether they have the experience and qualifications/skills to do so or not. Just buy one of your overpriced rifles and sling some lead at any range they want. Are you teaching them windage skills? God knows they don't have any skills, or they wouldn't be coming to you for one of your "magical rifles" that turns them into Carlos Hathcock over night.
You can lie to the rest of the folks here if you want, but I know you and your buddies have wounded a ton of critters trying to put your "videos of LR expertise" together. What is your wounds/kill ratio? And you consider yourself a good shot . What about the clueless client who buys one of your rifles? All of your clients are obviously clueless, or they wouldn't be calling you in the first place. How many do these guys wound?
Why don't you just get closer? Are you that schitty of a hunter? You must just smell bad, cuz everything about you and your little "wounding buddies" stinks.
Having my beer now, I'll not devote any more of my time to this trash of a thread.......
Damn man who cares who he sells what to and what he charges for it? Dodge sells trucks for $60,000 to people that don't haul anything go whine to them for a while.
I think this has already been stated, but there's little doubt in my mind that more animals are wounded by slob hunters at considerably shorter ranges than are wounded by the LR boys at 6-800yds. It really boils down to knowing your ability to make the shot under the conditions you're faced with - for some that's 1000yds and for some it might be 100yds.
To be fair, if you asked every member of this forum if they've ever lost an animal due to a poor hit... I'm guessing it's happened to a lot of us, and not necessarily at long range.
This is all becoming rather childish... I'll bet my dad can beat up your dad.
Damn man who cares who he sells what to and what he charges for it? Dodge sells trucks for $60,000 to people that don't haul anything go whine to them for a while. Dink
I wouldn't have a problem if he sold his trucks to people with a valid driver's license.
He sells his "trucks" to those who wish to pay off the instructor, skip driver's education, and go straight into "heavy hauling"........
is this still America where people can still buy what they wish where legal?
or is this your little fantasy world where you can get your way by throwing a tantrum?
do you think we should throw a tantrum about lever actions because they may induce people to take shots at running game through brush and may wound animals? how many people with M94 .30-30s know how much lead a mover going 15 mph at 73 yards requires?
Damn man who cares who he sells what to and what he charges for it? Dodge sells trucks for $60,000 to people that don't haul anything go whine to them for a while. Dink
I wouldn't have a problem if he sold his trucks to people with a valid driver's license.
He sells his "trucks" to those who wish to pay off the instructor, skip driver's education, and go straight into "heavy hauling"........
This world is about making money and if JB don't take there money someone else will. At least when he sells a rifle the people can afford to practice unlike alot people that buy Remingtons 710's.
I guess we have the barrel break in thing cleared up.
The term fouler shot comes from cleaning techniques and guns that don�t put the first shot from a bare steel clean barrel on to the target.
Use the right cleaning techniques and a good gun and you will start to see first round hits out of a cold clean barrel. I have no fear of heading to the hills with a clean barrel but then I don�t shoot moly
As whether I have anything to back it up do you have any suggestion??
I must have misunderstood; I thought you had a real title in the shooting world. My bad.
I most certainly know what a "fouler shot" is and where it came from. I'm sure the benchrest guys would love to hear the explanation you just gave.
Frankly, I'm a little disappointed in your answers, considering how many of your former rifles are wearing the trigger guards I made.
For the record, my issue isn't about the price of your rigs, nor the distance that you advocate shooting game. Mainly, because I know what it takes to shoot at those ranges and it can be done quite humanely and routinely. The difference is, I know that you cannot make a "turnkey" long-distance rifle, since the rifle is only half of the equation at best when talking those ranges.
You can make a very accurate rifle that can assist a great deal in helping a long-range shooter make those shots, but the system can't be turnkey for anyone but an accomplished shooter.
I'd love to see the first clean shot hit where the rest lie one of these days, as many others I'm sure would too, but it don't happen. I could care less how many borescopes and special cleaning techniques, coupled with the latest break-in procedure is employed, it simply doesn't happen...MOLY or NO MOLY.
Like I said earlier, my door is always open and I love a good steak, even if I have to choke it down whilst my company is eating crow.
I have no dog in this fight, and will try to offer an unbiased opinion on why so many here seem to have an issue with your pricing. If I were going to "obtain" (from scratch) a "long range precision hunting rifle setup", here's the breakdown for me (and I'll err toward the high cost side of the equation if I do err in my cost breakdown) ...
1. Rem700 stainless steel action - $400 2. McMillan stock - $500 3. Premium match grade SS barrel with flutes - $350 4. True action face, bolt face, chase tenon threads, chamber, fit & time barrel to action - $250 5. Glass & pillar bed bbl'd action into stock - $150 6. Premium set of rings & 20MOA base - $200 7. Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x40 with BDC dials specific for my pet load - $1000 (I hate the 4.5-14x Leupolds, and totally disagree with anyone that says more magnification is necessary, or even very useful, for shooting big game out to about 7-800 yards) 8. 100 rounds of ammo - $250 9. Jewel trigger - $200
The above list comes to a cost of $3300,
Just about everything in your list is a lowball, "buddy" price, if it can be had at all. You didn't list what it costs to install and short chamber the barrel, your barrel price is $150 too low. You might get decent mounts for $200, probably closer to $300.
And while we are talking about mounts Burns shows(in the "How to Shoot" DVD's) why "conventional" mounts can and will let your a$$ down, he does show you how they can be installed in a much more solid, reliable manner but HIS rifles mounts are bombproof. I'll won't explain it to you cheap bastids, buy the DVDs.
[/quote] For the record, my issue isn't about the price of your rigs, nor the distance that you advocate shooting game. Mainly, because I know what it takes to shoot at those ranges and it can be done quite humanely and routinely. The difference is, I know that you cannot make a "turnkey" long-distance rifle, since the rifle is only half of the equation at best when talking those ranges.
You can make a very accurate rifle that can assist a great deal in helping a long-range shooter make those shots, but the system can't be turnkey for anyone but an accomplished shooter.
I'd love to see the first clean shot hit where the rest lie one of these days, as many others I'm sure would too, but it don't happen. I could care less how many borescopes and special cleaning techniques, coupled with the latest break-in procedure is employed, it simply doesn't happen...MOLY or NO MOLY. [/quote]
Anyone who doesn't agree with this simply doesn't shoot enough to rate an opinion.
I have no dog in this fight, and will try to offer an unbiased opinion on why so many here seem to have an issue with your pricing. If I were going to "obtain" (from scratch) a "long range precision hunting rifle setup", here's the breakdown for me (and I'll err toward the high cost side of the equation if I do err in my cost breakdown) ...
1. Rem700 stainless steel action - $400 2. McMillan stock - $500 3. Premium match grade SS barrel with flutes - $350 4. True action face, bolt face, chase tenon threads, chamber, fit & time barrel to action - $250 5. Glass & pillar bed bbl'd action into stock - $150 6. Premium set of rings & 20MOA base - $200 7. Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x40 with BDC dials specific for my pet load - $1000 (I hate the 4.5-14x Leupolds, and totally disagree with anyone that says more magnification is necessary, or even very useful, for shooting big game out to about 7-800 yards) 8. 100 rounds of ammo - $250 9. Jewel trigger - $200
The above list comes to a cost of $3300,
Just about everything in your list is a lowball, "buddy" price, if it can be had at all.
Once again some more BS from someone who hasn't a clue. For $6000 I could build 2 rifles equal to or better than a GBP in every way.
But again, it's not the prices of the products that are pissing people off, it's the ideology behind them.
I've said all I care to say on the subject. Hope you do well, John. Hope your clients do better. The game animals deserve it.
I have no dog in this fight, and will try to offer an unbiased opinion on why so many here seem to have an issue with your pricing. If I were going to "obtain" (from scratch) a "long range precision hunting rifle setup", here's the breakdown for me (and I'll err toward the high cost side of the equation if I do err in my cost breakdown) ...
1. Rem700 stainless steel action - $400 2. McMillan stock - $500 3. Premium match grade SS barrel with flutes - $350 4. True action face, bolt face, chase tenon threads, chamber, fit & time barrel to action - $250 5. Glass & pillar bed bbl'd action into stock - $150 6. Premium set of rings & 20MOA base - $200 7. Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x40 with BDC dials specific for my pet load - $1000 (I hate the 4.5-14x Leupolds, and totally disagree with anyone that says more magnification is necessary, or even very useful, for shooting big game out to about 7-800 yards) 8. 100 rounds of ammo - $250 9. Jewel trigger - $200
The above list comes to a cost of $3300,
Just about everything in your list is a lowball, "buddy" price, if it can be had at all. You didn't list what it costs to install and short chamber the barrel, your barrel price is $150 too low. You might get decent mounts for $200, probably closer to $300.
And while we are talking about mounts Burns shows(in the "How to Shoot" DVD's) why "conventional" mounts can and will let your a$$ down, he does show you how they can be installed in a much more solid, reliable manner but HIS rifles mounts are bombproof. I'll won't explain it to you cheap bastids, buy the DVDs.
Believe what you want, but I'm from the world of competitive shooting... and there are not many out there spending that jack on a top winning gun....
Let's just cut to the chase, John. You've now dodged the same question 4 times.
You're selling people what amounts to a $3000 package with the scope and charging them another $3000 for "barrel break in" and "load development". When in fact there is little to none of either required because, in essence, you are building the same rifle over and over again tailored to the same load and same scope. That about sums it up, doesn't it? High profit for little work/time invested. What if these people want to shoot something other than a VLD? Or different bullet weight? Then what? Let me guess, they have to pay more money for further "load development" or different turrets. That about right??
The appalling part of the whole deal(more so than your rip-off prices) is that you are telling every dumbphuck out there that doesn't know a rifle from a tent stake that it is okay to go ahead and take long shots at game whether they have the experience and qualifications/skills to do so or not. Just buy one of your overpriced rifles and sling some lead at any range they want. Are you teaching them windage skills? God knows they don't have any skills, or they wouldn't be coming to you for one of your "magical rifles" that turns them into Carlos Hathcock over night.
You can lie to the rest of the folks here if you want, but I know you and your buddies have wounded a ton of critters trying to put your "videos of LR expertise" together. What is your wounds/kill ratio? And you consider yourself a good shot . What about the clueless client who buys one of your rifles? All of your clients are obviously clueless, or they wouldn't be calling you in the first place. How many do these guys wound?
Why don't you just get closer? Are you that schitty of a hunter? You must just smell bad, cuz everything about you and your little "wounding buddies" stinks.
Having my beer now, I'll not devote any more of my time to this trash of a thread.......
Damn man who cares who he sells what to and what he charges for it? Dodge sells trucks for $60,000 to people that don't haul anything go whine to them for a while.
Dink
And thats a ripoff too... selling something to someone that doesn't need it... of course I'd flop as a salesman simply because I'm honest.
You made ridiculous accusations and have been totally unable to back them up and now you are making silly claims with absolutely no intention of backing those up either.
You will not be able to name any ranch that kicked me off and you will not build a single rifle, much less 2.
You remain a jackass.
I am wondering if this is really really the last post or if you might just have one more thing to say??
Triggerguard1,
Boy you are really confident in your position. Willing to risk a whole steak dinner???
Why would you say I used your trigger guards?? I don�t have anything against your guards, but it seem kind of cheesy to say I used them when I never ever ever ever have.
So, now it all comes to light. We just don't have enough experience or knowledge to spend our time and money as we deem fit. Sound familar ? "2muchgun", you ain't from the Federal Government and here to help are ya'?
I have no dog in this fight, and will try to offer an unbiased opinion on why so many here seem to have an issue with your pricing. If I were going to "obtain" (from scratch) a "long range precision hunting rifle setup", here's the breakdown for me (and I'll err toward the high cost side of the equation if I do err in my cost breakdown) ...
1. Rem700 stainless steel action - $400 2. McMillan stock - $500 3. Premium match grade SS barrel with flutes - $350 4. True action face, bolt face, chase tenon threads, chamber, fit & time barrel to action - $250 5. Glass & pillar bed bbl'd action into stock - $150 6. Premium set of rings & 20MOA base - $200 7. Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x40 with BDC dials specific for my pet load - $1000 (I hate the 4.5-14x Leupolds, and totally disagree with anyone that says more magnification is necessary, or even very useful, for shooting big game out to about 7-800 yards) 8. 100 rounds of ammo - $250 9. Jewel trigger - $200
The above list comes to a cost of $3300,
Just about everything in your list is a lowball, "buddy" price, if it can be had at all.
Once again some more BS from someone who hasn't a clue.
I don't have a clue, huh. You also suggested in the same post that a 3.5x10 Leupy was all you need to shoot long range. That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are full of schit 'cause that is not a side focus scope, and you probably don't even know what that is, or why NO ONE who knows what they are doing, attempt shots past 4-500 with out one.
I have no dog in this fight, and will try to offer an unbiased opinion on why so many here seem to have an issue with your pricing. If I were going to "obtain" (from scratch) a "long range precision hunting rifle setup", here's the breakdown for me (and I'll err toward the high cost side of the equation if I do err in my cost breakdown) ...
1. Rem700 stainless steel action - $400 2. McMillan stock - $500 3. Premium match grade SS barrel with flutes - $350 4. True action face, bolt face, chase tenon threads, chamber, fit & time barrel to action - $250 5. Glass & pillar bed bbl'd action into stock - $150 6. Premium set of rings & 20MOA base - $200 7. Leupold VX-3 3.5-10x40 with BDC dials specific for my pet load - $1000 (I hate the 4.5-14x Leupolds, and totally disagree with anyone that says more magnification is necessary, or even very useful, for shooting big game out to about 7-800 yards) 8. 100 rounds of ammo - $250 9. Jewel trigger - $200
The above list comes to a cost of $3300,
Just about everything in your list is a lowball, "buddy" price, if it can be had at all. You didn't list what it costs to install and short chamber the barrel, your barrel price is $150 too low. You might get decent mounts for $200, probably closer to $300.
And while we are talking about mounts Burns shows(in the "How to Shoot" DVD's) why "conventional" mounts can and will let your a$$ down, he does show you how they can be installed in a much more solid, reliable manner but HIS rifles mounts are bombproof. I'll won't explain it to you cheap bastids, buy the DVDs.
Believe what you want, but I'm from the world of competitive shooting... and there are not many out there spending that jack on a top winning gun....
A friend of mine is a competitive shooter, he spends very little on shooting. He gets boxes of parts, ammo, and complete guns, in the mail, for free, all the time. Yes, if you are friends with Carl Bernosky, his lathe time comes a tad cheaper, that's why I said you listed "buddy" prices on a lot of your list.
I don't have a clue, huh. You also suggested in the same post that a 3.5x10 Leupy was all you need to shoot long range. That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt you are full of schit 'cause that is not a side focus scope, and you probably don't even know what that is, or why NO ONE who knows what they are doing, attempt shots past 4-500 with out one.
Stayed out of this and don't begrudge GreyBull one bit, but this has to be [bleep] parody. That or you are off your [bleep] rocker sugar...
Not enough posts to credibly weigh in unfortunately. How about a loose glossary for this thread?
Capitalism - an economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the market
Demand (Economic) - the ability or the willingness to buy a particular commodity at a given point of time
Socialism - characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production level
Experience - Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill
Opinion - A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof
Take a Knee ... Are you freaking serious about (paraphrase) "anyone who knows what they are doing only uses a side focus scope"??? First off, "side focus" is just an engineering item ... the proper description would be a "scope with adjustable parallax" - whether side focus or an adjustable objective is used to accomplish that is another story.
Back to being able to shoot "long range" without an adjustable parallax scope ... it CAN be done, and is done all the time with relative ease for anyone who knows how to get a consistent cheek weld and place their eye in the center of the scope's view, thus eliminating parallax issues as it applies to shooting big game. I shouldn't have to say this, but keep in mind I'm not talking benchrest competition where microns might decide who wins.
For what it's worth, here's a couple of pictures from when I was shooting at about 800 yards with a Rem700 Varmint .243win barreled action dropped into an HS Precision "PSS" stock (no bedding other than the aluminum block that comes integral to the stock), with a VX-III 3.5-10x40 in Talley one-piece lightweight rings. For reference, this is an 8" square steel plate.
Here's a view from the steel plate back to the cabin I was shooting from ...
And as for "buddy pricing", you're again way off ... the prices I listed are easily available to anyone that can use google to search for the components of the rifle, be it the pedestrian individual or a smith ... and keep in mind as well that most smiths (at least the ones I know) are able to get better than 'typical' pricing on components, which could result in even lower pricing that I listed.
and to JBurns ... you keep talking about being the only one (or one of the very few) that offers a "turnkey" system ... are you insinuating that there are no other smiths out there that are willing to build a complete rifle, including working up loads for the end user? If so, you obviously haven't dealt with many smiths. Granted, most of us here don't want the smith to do every last little bit of work before handing the rifle over to us, but they will gladly take on the task of doing so if you pay them ... just like your customers are paying you to do so.
Now, another item that I don't think has been addressed ... From your write-up on your website, you have some verbiage about how great the stock is that you use on your P105 rifle ... It might be a quality stock, but what if the end user want's (or better yet, needs" a shorter length of pull, or perhaps a longer one than the stock offers off the shelf? Does Greybull Precision offer a shorter or longer length of pull on the stock? If so, is this part of the $6000 price tag, or would this be considered extra?
And one more pic ... this antelope was taken at just over 400 yards using the same rifle. I realize that 415 yards is not the same as 800 yards, but still, the shot was made from a field position on a moving buck, and a lowly 85g TSX that doesn't even start to compare to the VLD bullets in terms of ballistic coefficient ...
I don't know squat about long range rifles and can't afford a $6K rifle - but I have enjoyed seeing the way Burns deals with douchebags. I hope he sells boatloads of his rifles and sticks around to share his knowledge and experience.
I don't know squat about long range rifles and can't afford a $6K rifle - but I have enjoyed seeing the way Burns deals with douchebags. I hope he sells boatloads of his rifles and sticks around to share his knowledge and experience.
[quote=WGM]Take a Knee ... Are you freaking serious about (paraphrase) "anyone who knows what they are doing only uses a side focus scope"??? First off, "side focus" is just an engineering item ... the proper description would be a "scope with adjustable parallax" - whether side focus or an adjustable objective is used to accomplish that is another story.
Back to being able to shoot "long range" without an adjustable parallax scope ... it CAN be done, and is done all the time with relative ease for anyone who knows how to get a consistent cheek weld and place their eye in the center of the scope's view, thus eliminating parallax issues as it applies to shooting big game.
I learned all this in 1987 at Ft Bragg from Rick Boucher, I also learned I needed a side focus scope to hit consistently at 800. Adjusting parallax is part of the pre-shot prep dude. I understand what it is, and how best to eliminate it. I also understand parallax accumulates differently with different shooting positions. This means that parallax adjustment is ESSENTIAL on a sniper or hunting rifle, not on a 300yd benchrest rifle.
i would have saved a pile of money if i'd just bought a GreyBull right off the bat instead of learning this schitt by trial and error. those errors get expensive.
EXACTLY! If I included all of the indirect cost involved to get into my current long range rig, $6000 is cheap.
Well, I have to agree with JBurns here. In every instance I have found barrel break-in to be a necessary step in developing a new barrel. I am referring to barrels made by aftermarket companies such as Shilen, Hart, Pac-Nor, Schneider, Kreiger, Brux, and others. Of these I only use their premium grade "match select" barrels that have been lapped after reaming and then again after rifling.
The determining factor seems to be throat finish after chambering. While the rifling is finished axially to the bore, the throat is cut circumstantially with a reamer that leaves a more or less rough finish. That throat roughness is what needs to be polished out during break-in. Under high heat and pressure copper jacket material is stripped from the bullet in the throat and deposited in the barrel, especially in locations where the pressure has dropped to allow it to stick - usually near the muzzle in a process similar to plasma spray welding. Having a copper fouled barrel may point to a rough throat rather than a barrel.
During the break-in process I notice that at some point, usually within the first 50 rounds, groups will shrink, and copper fouling greatly reduce. That barrel is now considered broken-in.
In those cases where I have cut an existing throat deeper to accommodate a longer bullet, or improve seating depth, the process must be repeated to smooth the throat. The process can be accelerated by using Tubb's Throat Maintenance Kit, but generally a simple repeat of the break-in process works.
Throat erosion is reduced by Moly coating, however the new fad is Boron Nitride coating. I also never shoot a dry barrel, but use a bore lube such as colodial graphite, moly paste, etc. Being a varmint hunter, each of my barrels is subject to hundreds of shots during an outing, far more than any big game hunter will take, so fouling can be a problem. Use of polygonal rifling contours also reduce the fouling problem.
Sad to say, the only dead elk I have come across had an encounter with a Union Pacific locomotive. So I can't address the lethality question of long range hunting.
Wasn't the army still using a fixed 10x on their sniper rifles back in '87? I pretty sure Marine Snipers were using a fixed 10x Unertl from the 80's until 2005? Don't recall them needing side focus or adjustable parallax.
i would have saved a pile of money if i'd just bought a GreyBull right off the bat instead of learning this schitt by trial and error. those errors get expensive. thirty years and untold $$ of "independent research" and my current long range rifle is, guess what, a 10# 700 with a Jewell trigger chambered in .264 Win.
I have a little different take on that but a big plus +1. I save the Jewells for my BR guns and I ended up with the 300 WM. I personally wouldnt pee on loopie if they were on fire. Other than that 30 years ago I could have save a pile if Mr.Burns was around.
Barrel bareak in..... Break in and Cleaning
The age old question, "Breaking in the New Barrel". Opinions very a lot here, and this is a very subjective topic. For the most part, the only thing you are breaking in, is the throat area of the barrel. The nicer the finish that the Finish Reamer or Throating Reamer leaves, the faster the throat will break in.
Shoot one round and clean for the first two rounds individually. Look to see what the barrel is telling you. If I'm getting little to no copper out of it, I sit down and shoot the gun. Say 4 - 5 round groups and then clean. If the barrel cleans easily and shoots well, we consider it done.
If the barrel shows some copper or is taking a little longer to clean after the first two, shoot a group of 3 rounds and clean. Then a group of 5 and clean.
After you shoot the 3rd group and 5th group, watch how long it takes to clean. Also notice your group sizes. If the group sizes are good and the cleaning is getting easier or is staying the same, then shoot 4 - 5 round groups.
If fouling appears to be heavy and taking a while to clean, notice your group sizes. If group sizes are good and not going sour, you don't have a fouling problem. Some barrels will clean easier than others. Some barrels may take a little longer to break in. Remember the throat. Fouling can start all the way from here. We have noticed sometimes that even up to approximately 100 rounds, a barrel can show signs of a lot of copper, but it still shoots really well and then for no apparent reason, you will notice little to no copper and it will clean really easy.
This is meant as guide lines only. There is no hard and fast rule for breaking in a barrel.
Always use a good quality, 1 piece cleaning rod (such as Dewey, Boretech, etc...). Always use a bore guide. Whether cleaning a bolt action rifle or a semi-auto, good bore guides cleaning rods are available from a number of sources (such as Sinclair International, Champions Choice, Brownell's, etc...).
We prefer to use the Parker-Hale type cleaning Jags. Cut your patches to the proper size. If the patch squeaks going down the barrel, it is to tight. Roll your patches around the jag tip like a cigarette. This gives an even patch versus poking the patch in the center. When you use the latter method the patch doesn't fold evenly. Using the first method of rolling the patch, gives you more surface area and keeps the tip of the cleaning rod centered going down the barrel.
If you use a brush, we recommend one caliber smaller or an old worn out one. Roll a patch around the brush. Always push the brush, Breech to Muzzle. Remove the brush before pulling your rod back through! NEVER pull the brush back over the crown. More damage to a good barrel is done from cleaning than actual shooting. The first to suffer is the crown. The crown is the last thing the bullet touches when it leaves the gun. Any damage here affects accuracy no matter what.
Cleaning Basics:
Good 1 piece quality cleaning rod.
Bore guide
Nice cotton patches
Don't drag the brush back over the crown!
Never mix your solvents! Either in a jar or in the barrel, unless you are a chemist and know how they are going to react with one another and with the steel. Play it Safe.
Good Luck and Good Shooting! Bartlein Barrels, Inc.
Why would you say I used your trigger guards?? I don�t have anything against your guards, but it seem kind of cheesy to say I used them when I never ever ever ever have.
I first heard of you because of your association with Best of the West, which is why I know you used, or at least your company used our guards and a lot of them, all in stainless.
Really, it's neither here nor there and the only reason I commented on this thread was because of the break-in comments that were made towards WGM.
This is the last of my participation on this thread, but I'll leave you with a man's opinion I respected and many among the shooting fraternity do as well.
What part of I have never ever ever ever used even one of your trigger guards is confusing.
As for it being neither here nor there I think it now has actually become relatively important.
You seem totally unconcerned that your statement is factually and completely wrong.
Are you lying or just don�t have a clue who are your customers??
For you guys who wonder why I don�t list all of our components maybe this is the perfect example.
A lot of parts manufactures would love to be able to use our name in their advertising and claim we use their components in our systems. This can lead to problems later if through testing we discover something that works better.
What really chaps my butt is guys who start this crap that have never even been considered.
What part of I have never ever ever ever used even one of your trigger guards is confusing.
As for it being neither here nor there I think it now has actually become relatively important.
You seem totally unconcerned that your statement is factually and completely wrong.
Are you lying or just don�t have a clue who are your customers??
For you guys who wonder why I don�t list all of our components maybe this is the perfect example.
A lot of parts manufactures would love to be able to use our name in their advertising and claim we use their components in our systems. This can lead to problems later if through testing we discover something that works better.
What really chaps my butt is guys who start this crap that have never even been considered.
Believe me, I wasn't try to jump on some kind of association bandwagon, but if you're saying that I've never sold my trigger guards to Best of The West, you are the liar, or are simply misinformed.
To be clear, it was my former company of Williams Firearms Company...........Better now?
Davidson is a direct competitor of mine. Most guys in the industry know he simply copied what I was doing and when I left The Best of the West he jumped right in.
It is one thing to offer an uninformed opinion about the merits of barrel break in but to run around claiming me as a customer just won�t cut it.
Please admit I have never bought any trigger guards from you. I don�t care who else has, that is not the point.
Dink,
I am going to need a butt rub, my ass is really getting chapped
I'll admit that I sold Best of The West trigger guards about 3-4 years ago and continued to do so, until about a year and a half ago, at which time I ran out of my supply of stainless. You weren't working with that company in that time frame?
I am going to need a butt rub, my ass is really getting chapped
You will need to talk with your competitor about that. He is the pro.....laffin. These guys don't hold a light to someone of the chit I seen you deal with on another forum. If I have to start watching video in slow motion again.......[bleep].
I do have a serious question though. Any chance you doing reticles or turrets for existing Leupolds?
Dave7mm, nice info on barrels, about to break in my 2nd Bartlein
Now speaking of optics Dave, I'd appreciate your 'Cliff notes' if you will on scope preferences in your experience, just a few lines if you don't mind, for my knowledge and if you feel better to PM, that's fine. If you want, thanks again for the post.
Learning more each day, great stuff, loads of experience.
I hope everyone is beginning to see the difficulty in proving things like the merits of barrel break-in. There is always someone who will offer an opinion that is counter to whatever the discussion is and be able to fall back on a �well you can�t prove it response�
Well here I can prove that triggerguard1 not only makes totally false statements but even when confronted with the truth is more concerned with saving face than owning up to a mistake.
Why I might even begin to think he has about the same level of knowledge on barrel break in as he does about his customers.
Triggerguard1,
I have repeatedly told you that I have never bought nor have I ever used any of your trigger guards.
I have repeatedly posted here and numerous other places I left The Best of the West in June of 2006.
Now you either need to produce a purchase order from me to you, showing an order for trigger guards or admit you were making this crap up.
I hope you realize how easy it would have been to actually know what you were talking about before you opened you mouth.
I think part of the problem is a lot of folks don't know the difference between yourself and Gunwerks as completely different company, which is the outfit Davidson's started after you left "Best of the West"?
It's not an excuse for their ignorance/ confusion but at least helps explain it.
JBurns, hang it up you poor bastard. You clearly don't know much about long range shooting, ethics, who your customers are and when you've been a customer, and all that barrel break in stuff too. Triggerguard1 guy has almost 100,000 posts - so he must know what he's talking about. Wow.
some folks buy a pregnant wife... some prefer to impregnate her themselves..... well thats not a fair assesment but it does cover the big issues here...
Of course I'm still against selling a complete setup and folks thinking they can put the dial on and shoot... when its a LOT more complicated than that.
And from what I figure, most folks that are serious about this do continual research and can come up with the right stuff at a much less price.....
Prior to you being an complete an utter ass about the situation, I was inclined to refrain from simply telling you what worthless POS I think you are, but I'll refrain from refraining.
I'll post once again my quote, so you'll understand real clearly, just like everyone else did, what I said in regards to the making of trigger guards for Best of The West.
Quote
I first heard of you because of your association with Best of the West, which is why I know you used, or at least your company used our guards and a lot of them, all in stainless.
I frankly had never heard of you or Best of The West, until we started making guards for them. Your name, quite some time later, popped up on these boards associated you with Best of The West and the connection was made at that time.
No one could be more sorry than I that someone would put you and I in a business relationship mistakenly. When the exact time frame was that we began making guards for BOTW, I'm not for sure, but it was somewhere in 2006.
I didn't get on this thread to bash your products, but rather defend a position that a very good customer of mine and I share about barrel break in. This is also an opinion that was shared by the late Gale McMillan, which I didn't learn of until I had reached my own conclusions of the same.
As more and more time goes by, more and more accomplished shooters are realizing what an utter waste of time and money barrel break-in really is and the days of snake-oil salesmanship are quickly fading.
As I mentioned earlier, which you can't deny, disprove or wish away; it is a myth and from a statistical and mathematical standpoint, based on a series of ever-changing factors, it can not be proven.........That is a fact, whether it helps sell a rifle or not.
No two barrels are the same, nor chambers, nor receivers, bolts, lands, grooves, or any of the above in any combination you think you have mastered to exacting tolerances, to prove with or without bore scope, that your group will shrink, barrel life will increase, or the stars will align in such a manner that DRT on any game animal is guaranteed. There are enough variables to sink a battleship in just the finishing of a barrel alone, to say nothing of the loaded cartridge and its variables to even begin to conceive a theory on a break-in merit.
If the barrel is shot without break-in and it groups well through the course of several hundred shots, how do you prove that this particular barrel would have shot even better had it been broke in? Answer, you can't. Then again, you're claiming that 1MOA at 100 yards is suitable for 1000 yard elk shooting, after calibrating your rifles at the 100 yard line. With that kind of methodology, I too would be curious what the wound percentage is on your big game hunts, or your "behind the scenes" footage.
I am now done for sure, as this pompous celebrity status impresses me none.
My friend and a long-time poster here has a good saying that fits quite well...
"You can bullsh#t the fans, but you can't bullsh#t the players"
To those who are trying to put a cat into this dog fight- OK, so if you aren't hunting the land in which this guy hunts, ain't buying or have bought one of his guns that has an issue, or your way of hunting, life or liberty isn't affected by this guys business then why do you give a rat's a**???
Just asking???
Personally,
I envy all you guys who get to hunt such heavenly places like the midwest and western states. I envy all you guys who have rifles that make mine look like a red rider bb gun.
But if you ain't screwing up my family, pissin' on my house, twisting my religion, shafting my job or hammer dickin' up my hunting land then I'm simply going to let the guy make a living how he sees best? Pursuit of happiness right???
Again, just asking... Seems like so many have a burr in their saddle but really trying to figure out how your dog got in this fight.
I'm not taking any side either, just making a statement of the obvious to be honest.
If the guy is or isn't a jack wagon then why not just move on to things that make you happy...
Come to friggin' think about it, why the h*ll am I even worried about this???
I think I'll take my own advice and go read/post about things I like and want to learn about or share with folks.
I'm confused (given this thread, I don't think that's a surprise).
From what I can gather, the rifles that you're putting out are assembled by hand, correct? They use a standard Rem.700 action (no other options?), that's blue-printed, squared, and trued, corrct? No other work done to them?
Those actions are then fitted with a Jewel trigger that's properly set, correct?
A barrel of only one maker and profile, and length, is then mated to the receiver, correct?
The then-set barreled action is then hand-bedded and mated to a single stock option/design produced by only a single maker, and that maker is one of the majors, correct?
One scope option, with a set of custom BDC dials by Leupold, and a custom reticle (SFP?), correct?
And, rings/bases of one maker (y'all?), correct?
A custom reamer is used for the chamber, to give precise dimensions and thoating for the VLD load, correct?
Your load development uses one powder, one bullet, and one type of brass, and you verfiy it at 1" or less capability at 100 yards, correct?
I think that's the basics of your system, as I understand it.
Guys.. You need to come to grips that GreyBull Precision is a money making operation. Sure he makes money off his rifles.. Who here doesn't make money? Are you guys expecting him to run a non-profit company?
Dave7mm, nice info on barrels, about to break in my 2nd Bartlein
Now speaking of optics Dave, I'd appreciate your 'Cliff notes' if you will on scope preferences in your experience, just a few lines if you don't mind, for my knowledge and if you feel better to PM, that's fine. If you want, thanks again for the post.
Learning more each day, great stuff, loads of experience.
Originally Posted by dave7mm
From Terry Cross on Snipers Hide:
I apologize in advance but I have to rant for a second.
I have always been a huge, huge Leupold advocate. They were always my benchmark for quality, innovation and U.S. workmanship. I own an awful lot of their product and continue to use it regularly.
However. . . . In the last few years, I have seen a change in the way Leupold does business and delivers product to the market. As they have grown, they have embraced many less than admirable traits that seem to define too many parts of American businesses. While their pricing has been steadily increasing at a faster rate than inflation, their quality has dropped. They are still capable of producing a sharp, repeatable optic but not as dependably.
My biggest aggravation with Leupold is the fact that less than 5% of their product line that can be legally stamped "Made in U.S.A." and I'm not even sure that those few are !!! What started out with a few of their Wind River imports has blown into an all out effort to prostitute their name brand for a dollar.
I just received 18 RX-4 range finders, 18 Tactical 10x50 Patrol Binoculars and 18 Mk 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm TMR Illum. scopes for a package deal I have to ship. This is pretty much suppossed to be their better gear. Guess what? Range finders "Made In CHINA". Binoculars "Made In China". Scopes have no country of origin marked on the packaging, instructions or product. Call back from Leupold informs me that the scopes are assembled in Oregon but so many of the parts and sub-assemblies are made over-seas (mostly China except for some of their lenses)that they do not qualify for the Made in USA stamp!
I can assure you that sourcing their components and products from China has dropped their costs very, very dramatically while they have continued to raise market prices. You know, honestly, it isn't even the price/profit thing that burns me. It is the fact that they chose to move their sourcing and manufacturing (I do consider "manufacturing" and "assembly" two different beasts in this instance) out of the country and specifically China. Why couldn't they keep most of their production here and just up their pricing 10%? Jesus, I could drop my selling price and triple my profit on freakin Pod-Loc kits if I used components from outside the U.S., but I refuse to go there. Guess that is why I still drive a 10 year old truck.
While they may still have satisfactory product performance and at least attempt innovative ideas occaisionally, I believe that they are straying from their roots, pumping a ton of money into foreign factories and putting yet another hole in the bottom of the lifeboat that retains at least a small fraction of our ability to domestically support our police and military logistics in the event of any serious conflict. I remain firmly convinced that we shall sorely curse the day that we wake up and realize that we need to raise our military to a task only to find out we have cut off our own legs. I aim this statement not only at Leupold but other textile, steel, electronics and molding industries based in the U.S. You don't just start that [bleep] back up inside the U.S. borders overnight.
I will continue to use my original Leupold products but I shall migrate away from giving their company blanket support. I will, instead continue to give more and more support to companies that take risks, accept slightly lower margins and consciously make the effort to strengthen our own economy and workforce. As you purchase your gear or spec out the equipment for your agency bids, please consider more than F.O.V. and click value.
I would seriously love to debate the execs at Leupold in front of their Board about some of this.
DISCLAIMER: I know that some out there will have personal budgets at home that restrict your choices to imports and I totally respect that. A non-US product is better than no product at all in some cases.
DISCLAIMER #2: Yeah, that was more than a second. Sorry. TC
Answer from Lowlight on Snipers Hide.
Amen,
Every year they seem to get farther and farther away from what made them the company worthy of the reputation they have, which I personally feel is no longer warranted.
The shear number of them we see problems with is staggering, on military weapons systems no less. They seem to be completely out of touch with the shooter, all shooters, Civilian, Law Enforcement, and Military.
Unfortunately people still flock to their products based on the past reputation, regardless of the fact their current products don't hold up to that standard. LL
From Lowlight on Snipers Hide:
So what do you tell the guy who traveled 1200 miles to take a class.. he paid $1500 for the class, plus rental car, hotels, meals, and by the first day it fails... now he goes from what he thought was a solid optics with a stellar reputation to being the guy holding up the class while we run up, get a new scope for him, usually I am pulling one of my NF off to switch it for him. If you want to play the one up and working, the NF I use is heavily used, my S&Bs too, and guess what, of all of them, with more combined rounds than I can count, and only one scope has ever gone back for repair. They well worn and definitely show signs of use.
yes, other brands fail, but not nearly with the frequency as we are seeing with Leupold. it's every week in some cases, and even in the military classes we have Nightforce on the unit rifles next to Leupold... but I don't see the NF failing nearly as much, it's stark the reality of it, especially when you see more than 1 or 2 a week.
It's easily 20 to 1 when you compare the Nightforces on the line with the military units, this last class had 4 Leupolds on the line, 1 failed the first day, the remainders where USO, NF, and S&B... Do we see others fail, sure but not nearly as much.
If you want to start a generic scope failure thread go ahead, but don't be surprised by the results. Facts are what the facts are, in a class of 15 Leupolds on the line I expect and account for anywhere from 2 to 5 scopes to go down, I don't figure that with the same number of NF on the line. Its closer to 1 per every six months of classes, not 1 for every six people.
dave
That does not even begin to cover the problems I've had. 30000 rounds of short range BR kinda sheds a new light on products that dont measure up. Mr. Burns has a leg up,as his scopes come right out of the custom shop. So with alittle luck the reticles wont be canted and perhaps some one actually looked to see if it was tracking right before they put it in the box to ship.
To those who are trying to put a cat into this dog fight- OK, so if you aren't hunting the land in which this guy hunts, ain't buying or have bought one of his guns that has an issue, or your way of hunting, life or liberty isn't affected by this guys business then why do you give a rat's a**???
Just asking???
Personally,
I envy all you guys who get to hunt such heavenly places like the midwest and western states. I envy all you guys who have rifles that make mine look like a red rider bb gun.
But if you ain't screwing up my family, pissin' on my house, twisting my religion, shafting my job or hammer dickin' up my hunting land then I'm simply going to let the guy make a living how he sees best? Pursuit of happiness right???
Again, just asking... Seems like so many have a burr in their saddle but really trying to figure out how your dog got in this fight.
I'm not taking any side either, just making a statement of the obvious to be honest.
If the guy is or isn't a jack wagon then why not just move on to things that make you happy...
Come to friggin' think about it, why the h*ll am I even worried about this???
I think I'll take my own advice and go read/post about things I like and want to learn about or share with folks.
Pretty much sums it up.
John--thanks for the support. You handle yourself alot better than I could. (and yes, I go through break-in )
Thanks for the posts Dave, I too have aired similar comments noting Leupold raising prices at 7-9% in given years while inflation was 2-4%.
Capitalism? Yes, but from an American co. that built and promoted on 'Made in the USA' etc. There is some excess and smoke and mirrors no doubt.
I wish Leupold would get back to where they came from, and for the life of me cannot understand why the USA cannot produce glass on par or better than Asia and Europe.
We put a man on the moon, build a Hubble Telescope, etc. etc.
As the gap has shrunk from the high end Leupolds vs. the top end competitors, I think more and more former users are saying enough.
Me too.....as for me and my barrels they will be broken in and they will not...see moly
Ducking 4 cover as I write...
Bottom line, and I'm not gonnna get into a discussion about this but break in for me is about the "life cycle of the barrel" and not just today. People either get that or don't and for darn sure those that haven't run multiple barrels from beginning to end just won't get it..and I aint about to try to win them over. We all gotta do what makes us happi!
Heading to the range in a nanno to break in a barrel..grin
I think some of you guys are a bit to invested in this thread. Dont think Greybull rifles are a good value? Vote with your pocket book and dont buy them. The price isn't that out of line considering the target market is for these guns. The only thing I can not come to grips with is the use of a B&C stock on a gun in this price range.
Wasn't the army still using a fixed 10x on their sniper rifles back in '87? I pretty sure Marine Snipers were using a fixed 10x Unertl from the 80's until 2005? Don't recall them needing side focus or adjustable parallax.
Yes, 10X Leupold M3 Ultra (later renamed Mark IV). One min elevation turret, with range in meters for 7.62 x 51/173gr. 0.5 moa windage knob, and a side focus parallax adjustment. Most of those scopes were still in use when I retired in 03.
I noticed that GreyBull Precision is the new sponsor of this forum. I was wondering if anybody knew anything about the company. Has anyone used them for anything? Is there a rep here as a member?
First shot from a cold clean barrel will be in a group if you shoot another shot or two. It may not be the group you wanted, but a group it will be.
I knew Gale and his brother Pat, both made some good barrels, some of Pat's barrels shot world records, Pat shot some of them himself. All BR shooters will shot a fouler into the sight-er target without fail. Me 2.
Wasn't the army still using a fixed 10x on their sniper rifles back in '87? I pretty sure Marine Snipers were using a fixed 10x Unertl from the 80's until 2005? Don't recall them needing side focus or adjustable parallax.
Yes, 10X Leupold M3 Ultra (later renamed Mark IV). One min elevation turret, with range in meters for 7.62 x 51/173gr. 0.5 moa windage knob, and a side focus parallax adjustment. Most of those scopes were still in use when I retired in 03.
Looks like I'm wrong again. Learn something every day.
I noticed that GreyBull Precision is the new sponsor of this forum. I was wondering if anybody knew anything about the company. Has anyone used them for anything? Is there a rep here as a member?
Just wondering...
I'm the real representative for Greybull, how can I help you sir?
Next month's special: Buy one Greybull and get a free Swedish massage from 300MAG.
I noticed that GreyBull Precision is the new sponsor of this forum. I was wondering if anybody knew anything about the company. Has anyone used them for anything? Is there a rep here as a member?
Just wondering...
Happy you asked?
No kidding! Nearly 10 years here on the fire and who would have thought that this would be the longest thread I ever started?!
I think Greybull should give me a free rifle for putting them in the spotlight and getting them all this attention! JBurns, just PM me and we can work out the details!
Damn,considering there's no secrets to the fact that you're using a [bleep] B&C stock and leupold optics,why all the secrecy with your barrel manufacturer?What are you using E.R Shaw or factory take offs?
Lots of sniping going on here...and it isn't directed at any 700 yard elk......
I don't know John Burns or GreyBull Precision from Adam,but I am a bit shocked and surprised by the carping and sniping he has been forced to endure since coming on the CF as a sponsor.
It's ironic that the attacks I see on here are not generally directed at other members of this forum who partake in LR shooting activities, and use the products;nor toward others who seek to sell products or services on here.
They all provide a service available to the members here of a great deal of value that you cpuld search high and low for and never really find.
This is still America......if a guy wants to sell a particular product, build a rifle a certain way,engage in a certain legal activity,he is free to do so.If you don't like it,want to buy something different,don't choose too engage in LR shooting....that's fine.
But I am a bit embarassed at the abuse this guy has taken on here and do not feel it's been justified.I don't go for public lynchings and never have,just because someone happens to disagree with what someone else is saying or doing.
If you are writing Burns a check for one of his rifles you can say anything you want...if not,take your business elsewhere and stop the stupid, needless criticism.
If LR hunting isn't your bag....that's fine ,too. I belong to the same club.......but just because I can't do it,doesn't mean someone else can't.
This is still America......if a guy wants to sell a particular product, build a rifle a certain way,engage in a certain legal activity,he is free to do so.If you don't like it,want to buy something different,don't choose too engage in LR shooting....that's fine.
But I am a bit embarassed at the abuse this guy has taken on here and do not feel it's been justified.I don't go for public lynchings and never have,just because someone happens to disagree with what someone else is saying or doing.
If you are writing Burns a check for one of his rifles you can say anything you want...if not,take your business elsewhere and stop the stupid, needless criticism.
Lots of sniping going on here...and it isn't directed at any 700 yard elk......
I don't know John Burns or GreyBull Precision from Adam,but I am a bit shocked and surprised by the carping and sniping he has been forced to endure since coming on the CF as a sponsor.
It's ironic that the attacks I see on here are not generally directed at other members of this forum who partake in LR shooting activities, and use the products;nor toward others who seek to sell products or services on here.
They all provide a service available to the members here of a great deal of value that you cpuld search high and low for and never really find.
This is still America......if a guy wants to sell a particular product, build a rifle a certain way,engage in a certain legal activity,he is free to do so.If you don't like it,want to buy something different,don't choose too engage in LR shooting....that's fine.
But I am a bit embarassed at the abuse this guy has taken on here and do not feel it's been justified.I don't go for public lynchings and never have,just because someone happens to disagree with what someone else is saying or doing.
If you are writing Burns a check for one of his rifles you can say anything you want...if not,take your business elsewhere and stop the stupid, needless criticism.
If LR hunting isn't your bag....that's fine ,too. I belong to the same club.......but just because I can't do it,doesn't mean someone else can't.
Bob, you have always been the voice of reason . Well said
Guys thanks...but I didn't do anything.....to me it's just a question of a bit of restraint and common courtesy.
I avoid pissing contests when at all possible but I don't like it when people screw with someone else's livelihood.
The market place is the ultimate arbiter of whether goods and services thrive or fall on their face;and the right to criticize is the sole province of those who have laid down their money for either one.
It is sponsors and the profit motive that makes this site available to all of us.
That John should have to defend a product and its' intended use in a public forum to those who have not paid the freight for its' use has ,to me,moved beyond sublime to ridiculous.I wish him the best with his business venture.
Lots of the cost issues vs performance can be compared to AR15s... I can have a CUSTOM built AR15 by a national champ... for 1000 bucks less than say a Wilson built gun. Both will shoot well... and the custom probably will outshoot the wilson by a hair.
What are you getting for value there? IMHO not a damn thing.. yet tons of folks buy Wilson instead.
Looks like by Dink's questioning...someone else bought or is buying into the turrets.... They'll work fine mostly too... but not nearly as versatile.
BTW I've read a lot on the Burns threads all over the place.. one thing I come back to is the gun has to shoot MOA or better... and usually better... but its really generally never hard to take a factory 700 and make it into a sub moa gun... bedding, floating.... recrown, trigger work, and load work generally does it....
Stoney is bucking for employee of the year. I would have never imagined he would sell you out for $800.
Plus you gotta supply the rubbing.
Stoney is trying to kiss your azz - he thinks he's getting a free hunt from ya!! He's range is 45 yds & under - he's using one of his RED RYDER custom rifles!!!
rost495 I have always used standard target turrets on my scopes and I need a new scope so I am thinking about buyng one with the CDS. I have always wanted to try a custom turret marked with exact yardages. The farthest I can shoot here is 600 yards and several people on the internet say they work find to about 700 yards and after that you really need the standard turrets. May be the worst idea since the new coke but I think I am going to try them.
33 pages of outright b!tching at the man for selling a product that people buy, and maybe two pages of the usual decent discourse the 24hourcampfire is known for.
even money bet that the guys with 10 posts commenting negatively are not even hunters, but "agent provocateurs" from the anti-hunting crowd. Bauer, does this ring a bell?
I've always wanted to use agent provocateurs in a sentence...
Not a problem but they are SO limiting... if you are going 600 and under... thats a decent deal, but it limits you on swapping loads, swapping the scope to different guns etc... And you probably are not dealing with going from 200 feet ASL to over 10 or 12K like I do in the fall, temps go from 100s to 20s and humidity from 100s to 30s.....
IF it was such a great idea, all the manufacturers would only sell dedicated scopes... but can you think... how many different models you'd have to have...
Of course as I've said... I don't feel that long shots are something you need to do in a few seconds, thats personal.. and its never taken but a few seconds to glance at my chart, dial in 12 moa, vs dialing in 600 yards etc...
Grab a set and let us know how they do for you. Going to run VLD Bergers too or a different load?
I"m still working my way towards a 243 AI and a 22/6mm setup for lighter longer work.
This could be the worst idea I have ever had (I doubt it though because I have done some dumb chit.. ).
The elevation change does have me bothered a little. I am less than a 1000 feet here and when I hunt in Montana or Wyoming I can be between 3000 and 11,000. I have run the numbers through one of the free ballistic programs and its showing that there is not alot of diffeence in those elevatons (couple of inches) at 600 yards.
I agree that it probaly would not take much more time to just run the turret with MOA but if I don't try it I will never know if it works.
I got a similar setup to what he sells and all's I do is shoot at a target @ about 600yds, then see where my bullet hits. After that I adjust either up or down and shoot again. If I'm on target I unscrew my turret, set it to 6 and let it go. that way I'm dead on at six and just a little bit off at anything under. Compensates for different elevations/temps. I won't shoot normally over that distance at any "eatin meat" anyway. I also won't try over maybe 500 unless the wind is really calm or I'm 98% sure I'm gonna get a really good shot off.
I liked Best of the West when Mr. Burns was on it. If he can do what he says he can do with his rifles and can teach others to do it too, what's the big deal. Anybody that wants to spend 6K on a rifle and scope setup has a right to do it if they want to, it's their money by the way. I don't have a problem with shooting animals at long range. If shooting an elk at 700 yards is the difference in going home with an elk or going home empty handed, after I've spent several days getting up 2 hours before shooting light, coming in 2 hours after shooting light, enduring freezing temps and mud etc., if you've been there you know what I'm talking about, I'll dang sure shoot at 700 Yds, and won't need the okay from anybody on an internet forum to do it either. Mr. Burns, I appreciate your sponsorship of the campfire, your good humor in the face of numerous potshots that have been taken at you,and for the life of me, why, if someone doesn't care for a product they have to run it down. Maybe it makes them feel smarter or superior in some way.
My criterion is not 1 MOA groups at 100yds but actually hitting a 1 MOA target at 100yds. There is a huge difference.
You seem to understand that VLD bullets do not put their best foot forward at 100yds and tend to perform better at longer ranges.
You, like almost every other High Power competitor, use different loads for the different ranges. You state that your 90gr JLK is a 1 MOA grouping load yet it performs much better at long range. This is from a mild cartridge in an AR-15. Muzzle pressure is at the most 5000psi and considering the gas bled off to cycle the action is very likely even lower.
The muzzle pressure from one of our .264s is well over 15,000psi and we are shooting a bullet with the same 18 caliber secant ogive and our 100yd performance is better.
What do you think our 600yd performance is like??
When guys get serious about first round hits they tend to stop measuring groups and start counting hits. First round hits kill the game not � groups at 100yds.
I totally agree on cold bore first round hits... its why I shot the competition I did.. no sighters allowed. You had to know the gun.
I misread your info on MOA... but I'm aware through a lot of digital/laser training that my part of the formula has VERY little error in it. Doesn't hurt that I've shot for more than a few years, but my error is just under .25 moa of error with a sling and thats irons... my error over my backpack is even less. That makes hitting a 1 moa target a function of gun accuracy basically.
I'd suspect that your 600 yard accuracy for a group would hover at 2 inches and less... my personal goal with a bolt gun is one that shoots around 1.5 inches for 3 shot groups... but an average... you know, more than one group.. more like 10 plus groups. The goal there is that all 3 shots impact the same, and then try it another day and same until I"m confident. Of course having a load that is MOA and hoping to hit an MOA target cold bore every time becomes a really iffy issue.
BTW regardless of others.. I'm well with you on break in... I've tried it both ways and for my meager mind... it sure doesnt' hurt anything... and my fouling has been cut way down.... in a huge hurry once(long dumb story) but lost a tube life wise right before nationals.... new one shot really well but zip time to break in..... that tube fouled its whole life....
And yes I agree on pressure issues.... of course my 223 loads are more like 60K psi basically.. they are not mild loads at all. but there is a difference once going to mags... Interesting that you have had good luck wiht a 7mm too.... David always said, as did others... once you pass a certain speed point... that the 7mm rounds would throw a flier for no reason here and there. So far with my newest mag.. 7x300.. I've seen the same thing at distance... every now and then.... but I'm off to test some 180 bergers at some point just to see if they fair better.
The ONLY thing that counts in LR shooting at game is the correct cold bore hit. How you get there can vary. As long as you get there I"m good.. like I said... if I"m around 200% sure of any shot... Bang.
Sid, I was in CO once, wind gusting aroud 30+ mph, light snow, a NICE bull elk was charging up a mountain side in and out of timber, he was at a minimum 450 if not 500-550+ yds.
I never fired. My odds with him running, the wind, etc. were not on my side. Later, that same hunt, had one in the timber at 30 yds, yet the area I was in, had an antler restriction that kept me from shooting him. Etc. etc.
I got a mulie, but no elk, yet had a great time.
I don't regret holding fire. Every situation is different, and hunter, but then again I don't 'Pursue' LR sniping of big game as an endpoint either.
John BTW regardless of others.. I'm well with you on break in... I've tried it both ways and for my meager mind... it sure doesnt' hurt anything... and my fouling has been cut way down.... in a huge hurry once(long dumb story) but lost a tube life wise right before nationals.... new one shot really well but zip time to break in..... that tube fouled its whole life....
+1 Most people that claim break in is a waist of time dont shoot as much as you rost.
33 pages of outright b!tching at the man for selling a product that people buy, and maybe two pages of the usual decent discourse the 24hourcampfire is known for.
even money bet that the guys with 10 posts commenting negatively are not even hunters, but "agent provocateurs" from the anti-hunting crowd. Bauer, does this ring a bell?
I've always wanted to use agent provocateurs in a sentence...
Great point.
Also; Thanks for the new phrase of the day. I would love to use it, but I have no idea what it means and will forget it if I look it up. But thanks anyway.
IF it was such a great idea, all the manufacturers would only sell dedicated scopes... but can you think... how many different models you'd have to have...
Of course as I've said... I don't feel that long shots are something you need to do in a few seconds, thats personal.. and its never taken but a few seconds to glance at my chart, dial in 12 moa, vs dialing in 600 yards etc...
Jeff
C'mon man you are smarter than that, you only have to change the turret cap with each load/elevation temp. Yeah, that probably means 19 different loads isn't a good idea.
The big issue, IMO, is doing math under duress, and making a miss-causing error. This is why the military has used "custom" turrets for over 20 years.
Dedicated scopes are not practical, but time will come when wholly computerized electronic scopes will be. These may include a laser rangefinder as some do today, but with a dual aperture, that can measure bullet velocity, and compute drop and drift. They will also measure wind direction and speed from dust particle movement, in real time, over the entire range to target, making adjustments accordingly.
Ammo manufacturers would print a bar-code on each box of specialty ammunition that would be scanned past the scope, thus setting the computer's parameters. Handloads would use the internal chronograph data to set ranging parameters. Factory or handloads, fire a couple of shots at the range to verify and you're good to go.
There will be no turrets to adjust. A separate laser bore slighter will be placed in the barrel and the rifle mounted on a bench with the laser illuminating the target, the scope will automatically read the position of the laser dot and adjust the reticle for that base range. From there on it's all automatic. The scope will also record a video record of each shot.
Why I bet they could include a GPS display so you know where you are, to boot. Then, how about a scope with a LCD or plasma display, no eye box at all. Just think, non critical eye or cheek placement, automatic or manual contrast adjustment, night vision capabilities, illuminated reticle, and satellite TV! The entire thing with batteries charged by photocells built into the stock. Cool.
I'm confused (given this thread, I don't think that's a surprise).
From what I can gather, the rifles that you're putting out are assembled by hand, correct? They use a standard Rem.700 action (no other options?), that's blue-printed, squared, and trued, corrct? No other work done to them?
Those actions are then fitted with a Jewel trigger that's properly set, correct?
A barrel of only one maker and profile, and length, is then mated to the receiver, correct?
The then-set barreled action is then hand-bedded and mated to a single stock option/design produced by only a single maker, and that maker is one of the majors, correct?
One scope option, with a set of custom BDC dials by Leupold, and a custom reticle (SFP?), correct?
And, rings/bases of one maker (y'all?), correct?
A custom reamer is used for the chamber, to give precise dimensions and thoating for the VLD load, correct?
Your load development uses one powder, one bullet, and one type of brass, and you verfiy it at 1" or less capability at 100 yards, correct?
I think that's the basics of your system, as I understand it.
I saw that. I'd simply like JBurns to confirm that, or correct me if I'm reading that wrong.
If that's the case, then, frankly, it's not a custom rifle. It's a low-production-volume PRODUCTION rifle. It is a rifle produced to the manufacturer's specs, not the clients.
Sorry I missed it before. I think I have answered all of your questions in previous posts and a lot of info is on our website and jim62 gave you a link.
We don�t offer nearly as many options as do most other custom gun builders. We instead offer a much higher level of performance. The level of performance is demonstrated in our videos and we have been doing this longer than anyone else.
Most reputable custom gun makers would not allow a customer to pick a component if the maker new such a selection would end up in an unsatisfactory finish product.
We follow the same principle and at our level of performance component selection is limited. We continually test new components and if we find a component that will enhance the overall performance of the complete system we will then switch.
What we don�t do is try and ride on the reputation of any particular component manufacturer. We live or die by our proven field performance.
We do offer the McMillan G30 action for those that prefer an upgrade from the Rem 700.
I would disagree about whose specs we use. Our clients specify a level of performance not a bill of materials.
If your biggest gripe is what we do does not fit your idea of what a custom rifle is I guess we agree on a lot more than we disagree.
I'm simply stating that you don't offer a custom rifle; you offer a production rifle that the client either accepts your specs, or they get someone else's rifle. That's it.
You don't market it as a custom rifle; you market it as a "long-range system".
Frankly, and to the point, it's my opinion that you're sponsoring the wrong forum.
As to your performance, that's a debate on merits and on standards, and thus far, I've not seen what level of performance, stnadards, or measures you use to establish your "higher level of performance". Higher than what? What is the measurable criteria against which you benchmark your products performance?
For the record, I have NO qualms about you marketing whatever you make as you see fit, nor your prices. If a client buys something, and is happy with it, then it was worth it to them.
I'd simply like to know what guarantees and/or measurable standards you are producing with that product and for that price.
GAP, ain't posting as a custom riflesmith here. And, GAP offers options within their builds that you can customize off of their base to YOUR specs, at YOUR request.
Re: Long Range shooting, read a post on another sight of interest in light of the discussions here.
"We used 7MM/08 rifles for metallic silhouettes out to 500 meters. You can actually watch the bullet in flight if the light is right with a good spotting scope. They are really dropping and it would be very easy to shoot under if you were 25 yards off. That distance requires very precise equipment in my opinion. I never see it mentioned by "long range shooters" but when silhouette shooting we had to tweak our scope settings daily. Your settings could change several inches day to day."
Granted there are flatter rounds, but they ALL drop measurably, and the last statement..well....this is shooting at 547 yds.
Draw your own conclusions.
I like target shooting, have, do, and will SHOOT long distance, and love to hunt. That said, I have fun with true custom guns, on the range, and using them in the field, yet I don't snipe at game, but have at other inanimate targets.
True story: There is a local guy who builds custom guns, before that he was fascinated with killing deer really far. One day he drove out past my stand, after talking to me on my stand, then proceeded to drive off about 400-550 yds past me and turned his truck around.
Through my bino's I could see him get out of his truck, throw a sand bag down on his cab, sit in a chair with his rifle propped facing DIRECTLY towards me, just perhaps 15-20 feet off to the center of that shooting lane/pipe line. My first thought was, you have GOT to be F'ng Kidding Me?
What nerve, but more importantly where was his professional courtesy, let alone ANY regard to hunting safety?
That as some here use the term, was and IS a Jackass. More importantly, he desired SO bad to shoot something and at long range, he was willing to put MY life in danger. I take STRONG ISSUE with him and his actions.
He deserved an azz whooping. I will NEVER have ANY respect for that guy. That was one of but several things this person later has been known to do, showing a complete lack of character IMHO. He also will NEVER be allowed to build a custom rifle for me, even if offered for free. That's just how I roll.
I hope all of you do what you do safely and not endanger others, or become a statistic like I might have that day at the hands of a 'LR Game Sniper.'
If you are actually concerned about this as opposed to being bored and trying to stir up a bunch of crap I do have a suggestion for you.
PM Rick Bin and let him know your reasoning and feelings and ask him to move me to another forum. After all it is his website and I am sure he would want to allow a non custom /production rifle maker to be sponsoring in the wrong place.
You might even tell him you will quit posting here if this travesty is allowed to continue.
I just took you up on part of that. I respect Rick greatly, as a person and as a businessman, and his decisions (even if I disagree with him... rarely...), and he knows this. I'd expect whatever the response is, to be in line with that, as was my PM. No harm/foul, either way.
FWIW, considering what you specialize in and what your rifles are designed for, I'd rather see you sponsor the long-range hunting forum. It's certainly your forte', what you build for, and where your strength lies.
We really don�t specialize in long range rifles. We build hunting rifles, I say custom hunting rifles, that have very good long range performance but give nothing up on the more moderate ranges where most game is actually shot.
I personally would not seriously hunt with a purpose built �long range rifle� because it compromises so much at normal range.
Re: Long Range shooting, read a post on another sight of interest in light of the discussions here.
"We used 7MM/08 rifles for metallic silhouettes out to 500 meters. You can actually watch the bullet in flight if the light is right with a good spotting scope. They are really dropping and it would be very easy to shoot under if you were 25 yards off. That distance requires very precise equipment in my opinion. I never see it mentioned by "long range shooters" but when silhouette shooting we had to tweak our scope settings daily. Your settings could change several inches day to day."
Granted there are flatter rounds, but they ALL drop measurably, and the last statement..well....this is shooting at 547 yds.
Draw your own conclusions.
I like target shooting, have, do, and will SHOOT long distance, and love to hunt. That said, I have fun with true custom guns, on the range, and using them in the field, yet I don't snipe at game, but have at other inanimate targets.
True story: There is a local guy who builds custom guns, before that he was fascinated with killing deer really far. One day he drove out past my stand, after talking to me on my stand, then proceeded to drive off about 400-550 yds past me and turned his truck around.
Through my bino's I could see him get out of his truck, throw a sand bag down on his cab, sit in a chair with his rifle propped facing DIRECTLY towards me, just perhaps 15-20 feet off to the center of that shooting lane/pipe line. My first thought was, you have GOT to be F'ng Kidding Me?
What nerve, but more importantly where was his professional courtesy, let alone ANY regard to hunting safety?
That as some here use the term, was and IS a Jackass. More importantly, he desired SO bad to shoot something and at long range, he was willing to put MY life in danger. I take STRONG ISSUE with him and his actions.
He deserved an azz whooping. I will NEVER have ANY respect for that guy. That was one of but several things this person later has been known to do, showing a complete lack of character IMHO. He also will NEVER be allowed to build a custom rifle for me, even if offered for free. That's just how I roll.
I hope all of you do what you do safely and not endanger others, or become a statistic like I might have that day at the hands of a 'LR Game Sniper.'
Are you [bleep]' kidding me? WTFH does your story have to do with John Burns and his company. Give it a [bleep]' rest for god's sake. You have made your point that you are a hater of the highest level. Move on. Please. We are clear on how you feel. Really.
True 700 action Rock Creek 30cal,M24/M40 , SS 11.25 finished @ 24" Badger 20 moa rail McM A5, GAP camo Badger M5 BM Jewell trigger Seekin's 30mm low rings NF 5.5-22*50 NPR1
[bleep], I'll sell the rig for $6000, and I'll include 100rds of loaded, CUSTOM ammo and dope out to 1000yds. Shoots better then 1 moa targets @ 100yds, grin. All that you'll have to do is look at my dope chart on my rifle and spin the turrets.
I just took you up on part of that. I respect Rick greatly, as a person and as a businessman, and his decisions (even if I disagree with him... rarely...), and he knows this. I'd expect whatever the response is, to be in line with that, as was my PM. No harm/foul, either way.
FWIW, considering what you specialize in and what your rifles are designed for, I'd rather see you sponsor the long-range hunting forum. It's certainly your forte', what you build for, and where your strength lies.
Definately the sign of a man who thinks too highly his own opinion.
I just took you up on part of that. I respect Rick greatly, as a person and as a businessman, and his decisions (even if I disagree with him... rarely...), and he knows this. I'd expect whatever the response is, to be in line with that, as was my PM. No harm/foul, either way.
FWIW, considering what you specialize in and what your rifles are designed for, I'd rather see you sponsor the long-range hunting forum. It's certainly your forte', what you build for, and where your strength lies.
Definately the sign of a man who thinks too highly his own opinion.
There seems to be a few of them, what does it matter wich forum he sponsors? If you think his product is to high or feel you can put something togethor better/cheaper don't buy from him, it really is that easy.
I just took you up on part of that. I respect Rick greatly, as a person and as a businessman, and his decisions (even if I disagree with him... rarely...), and he knows this. I'd expect whatever the response is, to be in line with that, as was my PM. No harm/foul, either way.
FWIW, considering what you specialize in and what your rifles are designed for, I'd rather see you sponsor the long-range hunting forum. It's certainly your forte', what you build for, and where your strength lies.
Definately the sign of a man who thinks too highly his own opinion.
There seems to be a few of them, what does it matter wich forum he sponsors? If you think his product is to high or feel you can put something togethor better/cheaper don't buy from him, it really is that easy.
I think some of these tools must have a burning lustful man crush on John Burns and it manifests much the same way that young boys will punch and mistreat girls they like on the playground to cover their secret infatuation from their buddies. Once your post count exceeds 40,000 (yes 40k, not a typo) it is readily apparent how highly a man thinks of his own opinion.
I think you ran the pits for me in a match in which I shot one of my 2 1.25" 5-shot groups @ 500yds with another schitty GAP 308, didn't you? Imagine if we had blown another 2 grand on those rifles what they would do. You also saw me put 12 shots into a half inch with a $900 CZ 527. Another $5100 would have had that baby singin'........grins. Can I do thids every time? I wish! Point being, no rifle, at any price, is a substitute for trigger time. You have to practice regularly, and even then chances are not the best. The term "turnkey" is one that I do not like.
I talked to certain Mr.Shilen at length about "barrel break in" a few years ago. Not because I was wondering about the answer, but because I thought I had known his feelings on the subject, and then read about "barrel break in procedures" on their website. In a nutshell, I was told that it was put there just so people would stop asking, and they could stop answering, the question. He did not truly believe in it, but the masses demanded an answer, so they gave one to shut people up.
In all honesty folks (and I know nobody here is gonna listen to what I say anyway), I think we've given John enough crap, and he's handled it pretty well. He seems like an alright guy, and if people want to buy his product, so be it. I can't believe he has "hung in" as long as he has. There really aren't too many more points to be made here. The horse was beaten to a bloody pulp long ago. I still don't like the ideology behind the product, but.....
BTW, Mike I'm on a 30 day "suspension" from you know where. I guess I'm just not politically correct enough. Go figger. That's okay, cuz I'm working 7/12s at the nuke plant anyway and have little time for anything. Past my bed time....
True 700 action Rock Creek 30cal,M24/M40 , SS 11.25 finished @ 24" Badger 20 moa rail McM A5, GAP camo Badger M5 BM Jewell trigger Seekin's 30mm low rings NF 5.5-22*50 NPR1
[bleep], I'll sell the rig for $6000, and I'll include 100rds of loaded, CUSTOM ammo and dope out to 1000yds. Shoots better then 1 moa targets @ 100yds, grin. All that you'll have to do is look at my dope chart on my rifle and spin the turrets.
Hell, I didn't even do break in for it...
Dang... makes me feel good... have one right now that matches a lot of those specs.... shoots quite right well too.... I"m loving Rock tubes right now too...
IF it was such a great idea, all the manufacturers would only sell dedicated scopes... but can you think... how many different models you'd have to have...
Of course as I've said... I don't feel that long shots are something you need to do in a few seconds, thats personal.. and its never taken but a few seconds to glance at my chart, dial in 12 moa, vs dialing in 600 yards etc...
Jeff
C'mon man you are smarter than that, you only have to change the turret cap with each load/elevation temp. Yeah, that probably means 19 different loads isn't a good idea.
The big issue, IMO, is doing math under duress, and making a miss-causing error. This is why the military has used "custom" turrets for over 20 years.
With one load... fine mostly... but then I'd have to have dope sheets anyway to correct the angle, the temps, humidity etc..... and I swap scopes at times cause I can't always afford the next Zeiss.... Just doesn't make math to me. Plus you have to have dope sheets to deal with the wind too.... and if I can miscalc or misread MOA, then I could sure misread a printed dial too.. I mean after all its all just numbers... simply different ones.
As to custom reticles in teh Milt... I have not talked with any of our boys in the know since about 2004 and that means I'm out of the loop... but there always was a ton of reference to the mil system and how to click it... and read it etc... I was assuming all the scopes were set in Mils then for them. Would make sense instead of simple yardage.... I'd assume same reason the spotters use scopes that have mil dots in the spotter scopes to help read and call the shots....
I think you ran the pits for me in a match in which I shot one of my 2 1.25" 5-shot groups @ 500yds with another schitty GAP 308, didn't you? Imagine if we had blown another 2 grand on those rifles what they would do. You also saw me put 12 shots into a half inch with a $900 CZ 527. Another $5100 would have had that baby singin'........grins. Can I do thids every time? I wish! Point being, no rifle, at any price, is a substitute for trigger time. You have to practice regularly, and even then chances are not the best. The term "turnkey" is one that I do not like.
I talked to certain Mr.Shilen at length about "barrel break in" a few years ago. Not because I was wondering about the answer, but because I thought I had known his feelings on the subject, and then read about "barrel break in procedures" on their website. In a nutshell, I was told that it was put there just so people would stop asking, and they could stop answering, the question. He did not truly believe in it, but the masses demanded an answer, so they gave one to shut people up.
In all honesty folks (and I know nobody here is gonna listen to what I say anyway), I think we've given John enough crap, and he's handled it pretty well. He seems like an alright guy, and if people want to buy his product, so be it. I can't believe he has "hung in" as long as he has. There really aren't too many more points to be made here. The horse was beaten to a bloody pulp long ago. I still don't like the ideology behind the product, but.....
BTW, Mike I'm on a 30 day "suspension" from you know where. I guess I'm just not politically correct enough. Go figger. That's okay, cuz I'm working 7/12s at the nuke plant anyway and have little time for anything. Past my bed time....
Jack@$$ (sorry, couldn't resist, grin) Yes, I've ran both in the pits and outta the pits and your GAP is differently a shooter. I couldn't imagine what another $2k could do for us...grin.
Barrel break in is a joke and cleaning is overrated.
Ken, I was beginning to wounder why you haven't answered my PM...Bunch on whine @$$es at that site when you speak the truth, and seems like a lot of ppl follow the same trait, here.
Never seen barrel break in hurt anything... and not breaking in sure gave me a fouler barrel once.... and it doesn't take much time while I'm trying to zero a scope in and work on a few small test batches.... but YMMV as they say.
I only clean as much as needed....
John.... you are working it hard aren't ya..... Trust me I could give it a try IF I only ran one caliber/load... I don't do that as I test bullets, powders etc... and hunt with a different load often... The only thing written in stone right now... 308/185 berger... and that may well change.
Lots of choices of reticles with hash marks of varying degrees... funny that the reticle is marked in MOA instead of wind speed... grins.... guess MOA does work for some things.
One day I'll get with ya.... old dogs are stubborn.... and when I have a bit of cash to spare I'll send ya the dope on my 308. Oops... that won't work I guess though as I don't run L scopes... I'm a Zeiss man all the way. Stubborn there too.... but if you did turrets for the Conquests..... I'd try and report back.... They still claim there are more than 2 ways to skin a cat... But with my years of shooting and dealing with MOA... it would be like trying to switch a MIL(thats milradian not military) guy to an MOA guy...
Never seen barrel break in hurt anything... and not breaking in sure gave me a fouler barrel once....
Serious questions here........
How do you know not "breaking in" caused the barrel to be a fouler???
How do you know it wouldn't have been a fouler even if you had done your break in procedure??
If breaking in a barrel simply cleans up reamer marks left in the throat, wouldn't the fouler barrel have "broken in" eventually??? In other words, if it fouled because you didn't do the break in to smooth the throat, why did it continue to foul after you shot it enough to smooth the throat??
EIGHT whole posts on 24HRCF and half of them slamming JBurns?
As far as Bell and Carlson or Leupold building "schitty" products - you need your head examinined.
Bell and Carlosn is capable of building a very fine stock. Winchester, Remington and Weatherby use B&C stocks on some of the best rifles they make.
Their top of the line stocks are as good as anything HS Precision makes- which is the only other US company that uses a comparable build process.
And to call Leupold "[bleep]" truly proves what a ignorant troll you are...
Get a life...
Never said leupold was [bleep],simply stated that the [bleep] B&C stocks and his use of leupold optics were no secret,so why not list a barrel manufacturer.
It would help a bunch if you could actually read,but then again you're probably stupid enough to pay 6 grand for 2 grand worth of rifle.
With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.
Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this gas and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it; copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.
Barrels will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in because of things like slightly different machinability of the steel, or steel chemistry, or the condition of the chambering reamer, etc. . . For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is the same hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more "color" if you are using a chemical cleaner. (Chrome moly and stainless steel are different materials with some things in common and others different.) Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in -- sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the clearing procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while polishing out the throat.
Finally, the best way to break-in the barrel is to observe when the barrel is broken in; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of "shoot and clean" as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.
CLEANING
This section on cleaning is not intended to be a detailed instruction, but rather to point out a few "do's and don'ts". Instructions furnished with bore cleaners, equipment, etc. should be followed unless they would conflict with these "do's and don'ts."
You should use a good quality straight cleaning rod with a freely rotating handle and a rod guide that fits both your receiver raceway and the rod snugly. How straight and how snug? The object is to make sure the rod cannot touch the bore. With service rifle barrels a good rod and guide set-up is especially important as all the cleaning must be done from the muzzle and even slight damage to the barrel crown is extremely detrimental to accuracy.
There are two basic types of bore cleaners -- chemical and abrasive. The chemical cleaners are usually a blend of various ingredients including oils and ammonia that attack the copper. The abrasive cleaners generally contain no chemicals and are an oil, wax, or grease base with an extremely fine abrasive such as chalk, clay, or gypsum. They clean by mechanically removing the fouling. Both are good, and we feel that neither will damage the bore when used properly.
So what is the proper way to use them? First, not all chemical cleaners are compatible with each other. Some, when used together at a certain temperature, can cause severe pitting of the barrel -- even stainless steel barrels. It is fine to use two different cleaners as long as you completely remove the first cleaner from the barrel before cleaning with the second. And, of course, never mix them in the same bottle.
Follow instructions on the bottle as far as soak time, etc. . . Always clean from the breech whenever possible, pushing the patch or swab up to the muzzle and then back without completely exiting the muzzle. If you exit the muzzle, the rod is going to touch the bore and be dragged back in across the crown followed by the patch or brush. Try to avoid dragging things in and out of the muzzle. It will eventually cause uneven wear of the crown. Accuracy will suffer and this can lead you to believe the barrel is shot out, when in fact, it still may have a lot of serviceable life left. A barrel with a worn or damaged crown can be re-crowned and accuracy will usually return.
The chemical cleaners may be the best way to clean service rifle barrels that must be cleaned from the muzzle -- i.e. M1 Garand, M14, etc. . .-- because this method avoids all the scrubbing necessary with the abrasive cleaners and the danger of damaging the crown. But again, as long as the rod doesn't touch the crown, abrasive cleaners should be fine.
Abrasive cleaners work very well. They do not damage the bore, they clean all types of fouling (copper powder, lead, plastic), and they have the added advantage of polishing the throat both in "break in" and later on when the throat begins to roughen again from the rounds fired. One national champion we know polishes the throats on his rifles every several hundred rounds or so with diamond paste to extend their accuracy life.
Again, as with the chemical cleaners, a good rod and rod guide is necessary. A jag with a patch wrapped around it works well. Apply the cleaner and begin scrubbing in short, rather fast strokes of about two to four inches in length. Concentrate most of the strokes in the throat area decreasing the number as you go toward the muzzle. Make a few full-length passes while avoiding exiting the muzzle completely, but do partially exit for about six strokes. You can avoid accidentally exiting by mounting the rifle in a vise or holder of some sort and blocking the rod at the muzzle with the wall or something to keep it from completely exiting.
This sheet is intended to touch on the critical areas of break-in and cleaning and is not intended as a complete, step-by-step guide or recommendation of any product.
The following is a guide to "break-in" based on our experience. This is not a hard and fast rule, only a guide. Some barrel, chamber, bullet, primer, powder, pressure, velocity etc. combinations may require more cycles some less!
It is a good idea to just observe what the barrel is telling you with its fouling pattern. But once it is broken in, there is no need to continue breaking it in.
Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five cycles. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. It is interesting to shoot groups during the three and five shot cycles.
Never seen barrel break in hurt anything... and not breaking in sure gave me a fouler barrel once....
Serious questions here........
How do you know not "breaking in" caused the barrel to be a fouler???
How do you know it wouldn't have been a fouler even if you had done your break in procedure??
If breaking in a barrel simply cleans up reamer marks left in the throat, wouldn't the fouler barrel have "broken in" eventually??? In other words, if it fouled because you didn't do the break in to smooth the throat, why did it continue to foul after you shot it enough to smooth the throat??
I don't know that it wouldn't have fouled anyway.. but having used 11 other barrels of the exact same make on our rifles prior to this one.... the ones broken in did not foul.
The main point though is I"ve never had breaking one in hurt anything... and its done while setting the gun up on the bench here. I"m kinda lucky that I have benches at 100,200,300 and 600 right out my door here, so its just as easy to grab the gun, scope and tools and go do it and test some loads right away.... 1-5 single shots to get it centered.. and a few 3 shot test groups... settle on something, grab a 5 shot group.... You can't hurt a tube if you clean it correctly... correctly though is the catch....
"If breaking in a barrel simply cleans up reamer marks left in the throat, wouldn't the fouler barrel have "broken in" eventually??? In other words, if it fouled because you didn't do the break in to smooth the throat, why did it continue to foul after you shot it enough to smooth the throat??"
.. but having used 11 other barrels of the exact same make on our rifles prior to this one.... the ones broken in did not foul.
The main point though is I"ve never had breaking one in hurt anything... You can't hurt a tube if you clean it correctly... correctly though is the catch....
While I do not have anything against L.R. shooting, I have often wondered how one can reasonably assess the quality of a game animal at 500+ yards in order to warrant the slinging of a bullet in its direction.
Posted by 02/24/02 Darryl_Cassel
Hello Boyd and Sealsniper
How's things going over here?
You seem to have some Non-believers or the usual "unethical" comments being said.
Maybe I can shed some light on what I have read from other posters.
Being probably the elder person around the fire tonight and on this forum, I can assure you that what Boyd speaks is VERY true and is being done more and more every year. You don't have to agree with it but, it is still a part of the hunting sport and becoming VERY popular.
The problem with most old time or short range hunters as we call them, is that, they are set in their ways, and are NOT open minded to change.
When I was intruduced to Longrange hunting in Cameron County PA many, many years ago, (Have not missed a buck season in 41 Years now) I was open minded and wanted to learn everything I could from the fellows I knew that had done this for so long. I tagged along and got a real education. Up to that point, I had hunted and killed game all ways and I still do, even bow hunting in my tree stand.
After a trip or two with those LR boys I was hooked. Now I prefer longrange hunting to any type I have ever done in the past and have been VERY successful at it over the years.
At 62 I can still climb the mountains quite well to retreive my game either in PA, West Virginia or Colorado where we LONGRANGE hunt and have for the last 13 years running, for elk and Mule deer. We kill at extended range on elk also and yes, we use MK bullets because we want the MOST accuracy and high ballsitic coefficient bullets we can get. By the way, they do open on game quite well at longrange.
I won't even begin to tell you how far we have killed game because some of you won't even believe Boyds kills and he is relativly new to the sport. I am an old timer at it now and have killed a lot further then Boyd has to date. He will get to the longer yardages but, that takes time. I had the pleasure of meeting Boyd last year at Williamsport. He and Butch Keen came to my place in Driftwood just 2 or 3 weeks ago for a tour of our longrange area and my shooting area where we can stretch the bullet out to 3000 yards from my property.
Anyone whot thinks we don't have the equipment to kill at extended range can think again. Our equipment list totals about $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 worth of needed items to make sure we do it right. By the time you invest in a Military laser Rangefinder $3000.00, a rifle that cost from 4 to 6 thousand dollars a good set of bigeyes (normally military ship binoculars) and all the other items needed, your wallet is empty for a while.
We are not the 3 day a year hunter that grabs his rifle from the closet and goes hunting for 2 or 3 days and calls this hunting. We shoot all spring, and summer in 1000 yard matches at Williamsport ( My wife and I have missed only two matches in 14 years) and we also shoot woodchucks longrange all summer getting ready for big game. The animals are not targets to us, they are the same thing as they are to the short range shooter. A GAME ANIMAL. Our goal is to kill as quickly as possible as we all should strive for.
A question was asked about energy at 1000 yards, lets go to 2000 yards to answer that. With my 338/416 Rigby IMP and a 300 gr SIERRA MK bullet coming out of my 37" barrel at 3310 FPS, I still have at 1000 yards --2101 FPS velocity and 2942 FPS of energy left. That's more energy by far then the 30/06 has with a 180 gr bullet at the end of the muzzle. At 2000 yards I still have 1266 FPS and 1068 FP of energy. Thats more then the 30/30 has at 100 yards.
We hunt in teams of at least two and we have NEVER lost an animal yet in all these years..
Gene Williams you were right on with your explanation concerning the RELAXED animal who never even heard a shot. When an animal is hit (lets say the middle of the rib cage) by a short range shooter, the animal hears the muzzle blast which in turn, turns on the adrenalin and he will run for ever because he has just had the hell scared out of him. When we hit that same animal in the same area, he NEVER heard a thing and will just lay down and die on the spot. They respond totally different and that's what the short shooter can't seem to understand.
If anyone is still in doubt, think of all the arms companys that have tooled up to sell LR rifles such as the Sendaro, Larado, Sako Inter-continental and others. The longrange way is here and if we can help the new shooter/hunter to do it correctly, we will surely try. It's not for everyone but it sure is getting popular.
If there are still any doubts get hold of Butch Keen at --Keenvisionvideosuscom.net--. Boyd has his phone number i'm sure. Butch has made a truly fine Longrange video that is 1 hour long. It shows the actual vapor trail of the bullet right into the animal and many one shot kills on deer in PA and West Virginia. I think his longest shot on the video is 1350 Yards. The tape is $20.00 or $25.00 and to those that doubt what we do, look at the tape and watch how it's done and then you may just get a better understanding.
Pass the hot dogs please, the fire is about right for roasting now.
Darryl Cassel PR and Information Officer The Original PA 1000 Yard Benchrest Club
I hope John sells tons of his rifles and has to raise his prices to regulate the supply/demand.
Anytime I see a product in my field selling near the top of the pile, I think it's GREAT!
There will always be those trying finding a way not to justify how OTHER people spend their money. Constantly telling others where to find the lowest price on everything. Yet, when these same people go up for a review at work, I'd bet they NEVER tell their boss that they don't need a raise, and they'd be happy to do more for less money.
Yet, they're happy to do their part to try and keep the prices in the free market of custom gunmaking down. I'd guess I could understand if it was my TAX money paying or subsidizing the gunmakers wages, retirement, health insurance, vacation pay, sick days, kids college education.
If anyone wants to jump in and pay just my (or John's) insurance bill every month, please feel free to do so. If not, why criticize someone who prices their products in a manner that allows them to pay theirs?
As for the long distance shooting critters... If you're comfortable doing it and have the equipment, experience and confidence to do so that's fine with me.
If you don't have confidence in your ability to do this DON'T tell others it's somehow unethical. My guess is that more critters run off shot inside 100 yards than outside 500 yards.
If you don't have confidence in your ability to do this DON'T tell others it's somehow unethical. My guess is that more critters run off shot inside 100 yards than outside 500 yards.
+1 Its a dim-o-crap thing. They like to tell people how to do stuff, they dont know anything about.
This has been a very interesting, I have been guiding hunters for big game and varmint for about 40 years.I am also a gunsmith and built custom Rifles, mainly hunting rifles.We killed everything with four power scopes, then the six power came along and we thought we died and went to heaven.Things they are a changing--Opics have been the biggest changes to to hunting world. Bullet makers are also keeping up there end of things.I have been working with the Nightforce guys now for a few years and as you read all of the comments about long range shooting--hunting ect. there is a lot to learn.Its great to have a place like this to share what others have done or learned.There has been some very good points made by all sides.Long range shooting with hunting type rifle is here to stay, if you want to get into it--as you can see there is a lot to learn.I am building a shooting ranch, it will have stations like a golf course and medal targets at differnt ranges out to 2000 yards. We have two lodges to stay and get together in the evening to share your results--over a beer as someone said.I have never been a fan of best of the west and they did try to book a hunt with us, but of course didn't want to have to pay.We have been on the outdoor channel a few times and know all about that. But they have started this long range hunting--shooting and I have a lot of hunters that want to learn all they can about it. Start with TARGETS, not big game animals! We can control amost everything about shooting except ADRENALIN. Shoot straight!
Well,, if nothing else, JohnB got lots of exposure for his advertising dollar!
need one from 02/24/02
Well, I thought this was a HUNTERS campfire not a shooters campfire. Seems as though we are being invaded by long range shooters that couldn't carry their equipment 100 yards without taking a break. A hunting rifle doesn't weigh 15 to 30 pounds and binos don't take a strong tripod to hold them steady. JMHO if you are a responsible hunter you don't need a range finder to shoot game, if you do it is too far to be responsible and people that play with a life for their enjoyment have MY contempt. Long range shooting and equipment is enjoyable when it is accomplished in the correct mannor. How many people, do you think, that buy a license to hunt can afford equipment like you describe and when you talk it how many do you think will try and stretch their hunting rifle range to any animal they see, especially the young new guys. Personally if I were interested in long range shooting at animals I would go over to that board for the information. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darryl Cassel from 02/25/02
Need one Nobody ever said you or anyone else should buy this equipment. I mentioned it as to let you or anyone else know we are VERY prepared for the long shot when needed and have all the neccessary equipment. We practice all year to be able to use this equipoment correctly. You know the old saying, practice makes perfect.
Lets compare our equipment to the Doctor who wants a fine rifle and pays $5000.00 or more to have his Sauer highly engraved because he likes fine looking rifles to carry in the woods and shoot it 50 or 100 yards.
Hunting styles is a personal decision to make by anyone. The amount he spends on the style he chooses and equipment he buys is nobodys business as long as the equipmnt meets all State laws pertaining to hunting game.
We also have long barreled rifles with bi-pods that are light weight (10# and good to 1250 Yards) in which we pack our Freighter Back-packs with light "bigeyes", a small tripod, thermos, food and carry our equipment out to far ridges (that we have previously pre-ranged the yardages on a picture) to survey the far mountains all day. This is not unlike the the hunter that sits or stands on his favorite deer spot in Pennsylvania or any State. We just do it at greater distance.
You don't have to walk or ride a horse all day to call it the "ONLY way" EVERYONE should hunt.
If your preferance is to do that, fine. Ours is to kill the game clean and at ranges you can't believe mainly because you may not have been around the longrange groups or have no desire to try it. That's fine too.
You hunt your way and we will hunt ours because we enjoy it and know what our rifles are capable of doing way out there. Most short range shooters have NO idea what their rifle's are capable of. We have a 11 Lb rifle class at Williamsport where those with factory rifles shoot at 1000 yards. You would be surprised at the groups and the bullet energy that is maintained at 1000 yards from these factory rifles. Remember, most of us started hunting the way you do until we learned there are other ways.
Hunting game is a personal preferance and that's why the game comminsions offer so many different seasons and game animals to eleminate. The way you choose to do it (within the laws and rules) is your decision to make. Sort of like, you hunt your way and we will hunt ours.
We are certainly not trying to convert you to our ways. We just want you and everyone else to know that, Longrange hunting is becoming VERY popular and we will gladly try and help anyone who wants to know how we do it.
As a last point of interest. Longrange hunters have NEVER had a hunting accident or caused the wounding or death of another hunter. The short range hunters can't say that at all, especially with their snap shots at game running in the woods.
Through our "Bigeyes" we know where EVERY piece of Orange is on the far mountain/s and will NEVER shoot if another hunter is within 1000 yards of that animal. No game animal is worth hurting another hunter over and I mean NO animal. I personally have waited all day till a hunter left the mountain so I could kill a bedded elk we picked up at first light.
There are no "kill yardage limits" in the game law book in any State I'm aware of. There are NO moral yardage limits as to how far or how close one wishes to hunt and kill game. Kill is kill and dead is dead. Your way is fine for you and our way is fine with us. We are all after the same final result, That is to find and kill the animal we are after.
We have never lost one yet and that's considering a "bunch" of elk and deer that we have killed over the years.
I hope John sells tons of his rifles and has to raise his prices to regulate the supply/demand.
Anytime I see a product in my field selling near the top of the pile, I think it's GREAT!
There will always be those trying finding a way not to justify how OTHER people spend their money. Constantly telling others where to find the lowest price on everything. Yet, when these same people go up for a review at work, I'd bet they NEVER tell their boss that they don't need a raise, and they'd be happy to do more for less money.
Yet, they're happy to do their part to try and keep the prices in the free market of custom gunmaking down. I'd guess I could understand if it was my TAX money paying or subsidizing the gunmakers wages, retirement, health insurance, vacation pay, sick days, kids college education.
If anyone wants to jump in and pay just my (or John's) insurance bill every month, please feel free to do so. If not, why criticize someone who prices their products in a manner that allows them to pay theirs?
As for the long distance shooting critters... If you're comfortable doing it and have the equipment, experience and confidence to do so that's fine with me.
If you don't have confidence in your ability to do this DON'T tell others it's somehow unethical. My guess is that more critters run off shot inside 100 yards than outside 500 yards.
Thanks for the GREAT post JRG!!
One of the best I've read recently.
1 thing I can't understand is why it is considered bad form to post in another persons FREE classified that their price is too high but it is perfectly acceptable to some to post that the price of a item from a PAYING advertiser is too high?
IF it was such a great idea, all the manufacturers would only sell dedicated scopes... but can you think... how many different models you'd have to have...
Of course as I've said... I don't feel that long shots are something you need to do in a few seconds, thats personal.. and its never taken but a few seconds to glance at my chart, dial in 12 moa, vs dialing in 600 yards etc...
Jeff
C'mon man you are smarter than that, you only have to change the turret cap with each load/elevation temp. Yeah, that probably means 19 different loads isn't a good idea.
The big issue, IMO, is doing math under duress, and making a miss-causing error. This is why the military has used "custom" turrets for over 20 years.
As to custom reticles in teh Milt... I have not talked with any of our boys in the know since about 2004 and that means I'm out of the loop... but there always was a ton of reference to the mil system and how to click it... and read it etc... I was assuming all the scopes were set in Mils then for them. Would make sense instead of simple yardage.... I'd assume same reason the spotters use scopes that have mil dots in the spotter scopes to help read and call the shots....
I graduated from SOTIC in 87, the M24 was still on Remington's drawing board but we had the new Leupold scopes (Ultra, later renamed MK IV) They started out, and have always had, from day one, a "custom" elevation dial, graduated in meters for the 173gr 308/7.62mm. That was because Leupold asked MSG's Boucher and Lambert what they wanted, and that is what they said military snipers needed.
Yes, environmental conditions can cause this to change, but it doesn't change THAT MUCH inside 600yd, where a sniper or a hunter will take the vast majority of shots. That's what they make data books for. Interestingly, I remember one of the biggest variables we had to contend with was the highly temp sensitive ammo, which was then loaded with 4895, now will much less temp sensitive RL15.
Yes, the scopes had mildot reticles, we used them to range and to dope wind, we dialed the elevation. When I stumbled on J Burns on the Best of the West show years ago, I said, he's doing the same thing I was taught in SOTIC almost 20yrs prior, except having a laser rangefinder makes it precise enough to hunt ethically.
As I am sure you are aware trying to be the lowest bidder is not the best business plan. It tends to reduce ones longevity in a very competitive market.
Thanks for the well thought out post.
Just got back from the range and it looks like I get to go hunting this weekend.
8 of them with finale zero all dressed up and ready to ship on Monday. Living where I do is good for some things but a pain to ship.
The G30, still in the white, at the back of the pack needed one more day before coating but she�s running now. The 264s sometimes need just a little more time before they begin to behave.
The ratio there is pretty close considering G30s to Rem 700. 2 G30s and 7 Rems.
Caliber ratio is also fairly representative in 7 7mm and 2 264s.
Take a Knee so your saying the custom dials work well up to 600 yards? Or did I miss understand something?
Dink
No, what I'm saying is the accumulated error gets worse the farther out you go. Off-axis ammo, off-axis chambers...everything adds up, including any error in your custom dial due to elevation/temp/etc.
US Army doctrine was for us to be able to deliver a high probability of a lethal hit on a standing man out to 600yd, and given the ammo of the day (way over MOA in most lots) and extremely limited range time, an NO LASER RANGEFINDERS then, this was an achievable goal with 1800 rounds and six weeks of training, over two of which were non-shooting training days, IE parachute infil/FTX, hide construction, planning etc.
What I'm saying is being able to hit a deer or an elk at six or seven hundred yards, with today's ammo, laser rangefinders, and trued/tuned rifles like Greybull and others produce, is an accomplishment but it ain't the stunt that a lot of campfire knuckleheads make it out to be, and it ain't that hard to do. You don't have to attend Camp Perry for 20 years or have the surname of Hathcock to pull it off, and those who say differently simply don't have a clue. You DO have to get some range time, and resources like Burn's "How to Shoot" DVD's give you a template to do so.
And yes, I think custom dials (elevation) are the way to go for a hunter. At most you would need two for each rifle, big deal. Leupold is giving CDS dials away.
As I am sure you are aware trying to be the lowest bidder is not the best business plan. It tends to reduce ones longevity in a very competitive market.
Thanks for the well thought out post.
Just got back from the range and it looks like I get to go hunting this weekend.
8 of them with finale zero all dressed up and ready to ship on Monday. Living where I do is good for some things but a pain to ship.
The G30, still in the white, at the back of the pack needed one more day before coating but she�s running now. The 264s sometimes need just a little more time before they begin to behave.
The ratio there is pretty close considering G30s to Rem 700. 2 G30s and 7 Rems.
Caliber ratio is also fairly representative in 7 7mm and 2 264s.
Take a knee thanks. I have all the best of the west dvd's and shoot to 600 yards but I have standard target turrets. I am really thinking about trying one of the custom cds turrets and wondering how good they really are.
Knee, can accept 600-700 yds, 800-1200 plus, is to me where things truly get squirrely, but what do I know.
Success to all, in all forms, stay safe and have fun.
We agree, and, based on Burn's DVD's, I think he does also. He states repeatedly you should never take a shot at game that you haven't made repeatedly, in the field, in practice. IE, field position (bipod, off your pack, etc). 1000 is doable but, as COL Cooper used to say, "That is way out past FT Mudge".
I think practice at a 1000, if you are lucky enough to have such a place, is a great idea, it'll really teach you what the wind can do to a bullet.
Like Dirty Harry said, "Every man's gotta know his limitations".
This is America, you are selling products some of which are more than likely made in America thus employing some Americans.
You are paying to Advertise on an American website owned by an American.
Your hunts are more than likely taped on American soil by an American who will no doubt give some of his money in one fashion or another to an American.
I have proudly worn the uniform with an American flag on it as have sooo many others here.
We are a country at war, and the war is not with Greybull Precision.
I am glad for anyones success in America.
Some people cannot help but get lost in the minutia.
This is neither an endorsement nor a dig on your products as I will proudly say that I dont know chitt about long range shooting.
I'm back at the fire with another pack of hot Dogs this morning and Hello to all.
I see some of you are still wondering and maybe confused as to what and how we do what we do.
Let me answer the questions that three of you have asked.
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BIG STICK----The rifle is a 338/416 Rigby IMP with a 37" barrel. The velocity I get from a 300 Gr Sierra MK with a BC of close to (Actual) .800 is 3310 FPS At 1000 yards I have a remaining velocity of 2188 FPS and a terminal energy of 3190 FP. At 2000 yards I have a remaining velocity of 1284 FPS (Below1000 to 1100 FPS goes subsonic) and energy of 1099 FP---Plenty to kill an animal at that range.
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NEED ONE---Nobody said we are "HOLDING" the rifle as you would your 8 lb carry gun. Some are shot from bi-pods and some are shot from rests. Some of the ranges we shoot, we would NEVER try to hold a rifle and to try for a first round hit on the first shot. That would be a mistake and we may possibly hit a doe or cow that is standing close to our intended target. Our Longrange group will not shoot does or cows. We won't kill what produces the Bulls and Bucks for the future. It's not that we haven't in the past, it's just that we don't do it at all, any longer.
Our procedure is to make sure there are NO hunters anywhere near the animal. We then range the animal with our military laser rangefinders. The MOST powerful and accurate you can get. For extremely long shots, We set the elevation clicks just HIGH enough so the bullet will go over top of the animal. This is to get our windage adjustment when we see the bullet go in and impact over top and behind the animal. This is where we have seen the animal go over to the impact and stick his nose in the hole wondering what it was that made that little noise. After that shot and the windage adjustment is put in and the excess elevation is taken back off, the next shot drops the animal. Sometimes we take a spotter shot at a small object such as the base of a dead tree stump or clump of dirt. From that shot we are able to do all our corrections of windage and final elevation. We swing back to the animal and kill it with the next shot.
As stated earlier, the animals are not alarmed because the noise level is very faint to them from the muzzle blast. Unlike the short range shooter that shoots at 50 or 100 yards. The noise scares the hell out of them and they will take off even mortilly wounded.
Seal answered somebody's question here when he explained that a wounded animal does not react the same when hit LR as up close. When we hit them, they just lay down, they don't run. They are not alarmed. When we see an animal that may be alive and has just laid down from being hit, (which they do almost always within 5 yards of being hit) the next shot is into him within about 10 seconds. We don't let an animal suffer and he does NOT get away from us. This is unlike the short range shooter that has to track a wounded animal all over the place and can't find him till hours have passed and it just may lay there suffering for a long time before it dies. So a point in our favor, we don't let them suffer when they are hit. By the way, with our powerful Bigeyes, we can see the bullet hits into the hide and that's a fact. Again, you must see this done to possibly believe it. You can buy the tape that Boyd mentioned and see actual LR kills to 1150 yards. It would be the BEST $20.00 or $25.00 you ever spent and answer most all your questions.
As I also stated, we are here to help the young or old shooter/hunter every way we can to make sure we can suggest the correct equipment he must have and to help him undersatnd the ballistics of bullet flight and to make the scope corrections that are so critical to making a Longrange kill. This is of course, "IF" he is interested in LR hunting.
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DON KNOWS---Here are the Match dates for 2002 at Williamsport. The light guns, 16 1/2 Lb shoot on Saturday and the Heavy bench guns on Sunday. Match # 1. May 4th and 5th 2. May 18th and 19th 3. June 8th and 9th 4. June 22 and 23 5. July 20 and 21 6. Aug. 3 and 4 7. Aug. 17 and 18 8. Sept. 7 and 8 9. Sept. 21 and 22 10. Oct. 12 and 13
World Open two day event with over 300 shooters each day from all over the World, with two classes of rifles each day, will be "JULY 6 and 7" Most certanly bring a rifle and shoot. in a match. Someone will be happy to get you on target.
Hope to see you there.
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I just ate more hot dogs "For Breakfast"??? yukkkk
Hope that answered some of your questions fellows. In reality, you have to see the LR way done but, watch out, it is very addictive. Get ready to open up that wallet
As I am sure you are aware trying to be the lowest bidder is not the best business plan. It tends to reduce ones longevity in a very competitive market.
Thanks for the well thought out post.
Just got back from the range and it looks like I get to go hunting this weekend.
8 of them with finale zero all dressed up and ready to ship on Monday. Living where I do is good for some things but a pain to ship.
The G30, still in the white, at the back of the pack needed one more day before coating but she�s running now. The 264s sometimes need just a little more time before they begin to behave.
The ratio there is pretty close considering G30s to Rem 700. 2 G30s and 7 Rems.
Caliber ratio is also fairly representative in 7 7mm and 2 264s.
It would depend on several things, none of which were mentioned in you post.
1. What is the ambient temp of the environment 2. What was the temp of the optic before exposure to the sun 3. How strong is the sunlight 4. How long has the scope been exposed to the sunlight
Well assume an ambient of 105 degrees out and you've been in it all day. Would 160 or 180 be in the conversation of how hot that scope's going to get to the touch?
Wonder if there's a figure out there that tells a person when a metal object would be warm enough to the touch where it actually burns your hand? Probably what 160 degrees?
I've had barrels get hot enough where it was real uncomfortable to touch but never thought about what it's factual/actual measured temperature was.
It would depend on several things, none of which were mentioned in you post.
1. What is the ambient temp of the environment 2. What was the temp of the optic before exposure to the sun 3. How strong is the sunlight 4. How long has the scope been exposed to the sunlight
Not at the moment but we may start because of the back order situation from Leupold.
This might be a way for us to get more scopes done and give guys with a 4.5-14 a way to upgrade without having to sell the old optic.
John,
Just ignore the Jackasses, everyone can tell that they're D-bags.
If you start upgrading can you let me know. I would love to have your reticle in a Mark 4. The only thing close is a Nightforce NP-R1 and I don't really want to spend that kind of jack. Also do you have any deals on your stocks right now? I'm in desperate need of one for a L/A Remington in tan.
Doubting the temp then exceeds this for a scope in the sun.
You've never been to Kuwait in AUG
Hell yeah...
I've got a photo somewhere of the therostate at 138 in the shade at FOB Tombstone, Helmand Afghanistan July/Aug 2008. You could feel you face frying. We did foot patroling with our counterparts everyday usually morning and night.
Proud for those with the means to do so!![[Linked Image]](http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/slg888/comparison041.jpg)
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