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Joined: Jan 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
You have spell check ? grin
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,901 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,901 Likes: 1 |
This can get wonkie...
dave There's that word again.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,489 |
I can't get enough time this fall to run a bunch of tests but next spring I'll head out the door and start trying to figure this out.
IIRC its said if the complete gun rises in temp, its all ok but if the scope only gets in the sun its an issue.... I don't know that you could ever really have that situation... and knowledgeable folks keep teh complete gun at ambient temps.
Similar metals all through.. could be steel bed... steel action, steel rings and bases but what do you do about an steel scope... old weavers...
We need to go to some to some of the folks taht shoot on a daily basis or weeklye basis at 1000 F class open... and ask them too... trust me... they piddle way to much on things...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,752 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,752 Likes: 3 |
Dave7mm,
We bed over the block in all our rifles. I was very skeptical of using just the block but I have tested several rifles and not seen a difference in the level of accuracy before bedding and after bedding. That being said all of my personal rifles are bedded in Marine Tex.
![[Linked Image]](http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c90/dave7mm/beddingBlock.jpg) Mr.Burns. Are the P105 rifles that you sell. Skim bedded over the block? dave
![[Linked Image]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Logo_Schmidt_%26_Bender.jpg) Only accurate rifles are interesting.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,938 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,938 Likes: 1 |
RDFinn,
Has the group given you your opinion yet???
Relax John. All I'm saying is that I don't understand the connection between the bedding block and scope flexing/stretching from a temp change as if the action had little bearing on what you are describing. Maybe I'm not understanding it and that's entirely possible. A scope changing POI when you perform the test you described? Yes, I buy that completely or as one astute member so eloquently put it...."intuitively" (must have gotten his new copy of Readers Digest....lol Guess I'll have to spring for the 75 bucks but.....can you lend me a scope to cook..? ? ? So I guess what you are trying to say is that when you perform this heat test on a rifle with conventional bedding there is more shift from zero than with the aluminum bedding system you are now using ? Is that correct ? If yes, you are measuring this through the Leupold collimator or something alittle more sophisticated ? /s/ Sheepish If he'd get off of those third tier Leupys and go to a Nightforce or S&B, problem solved
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,130 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,130 Likes: 1 |
Dave,
Yes all P105 are fully bedded.
Jwp475 meet Broken Record.
Broken Record meet jwp475.
You two have a lot in common.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,065
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,065 |
JBurns meet Lee24
Lee24 meet JBurns
You two have alot in common....
hangunnr
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,245 Likes: 25
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,245 Likes: 25 |
ouch. 
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978 |
and more than a little bit unfair .. Lee24 hid behind a screen name and had no verifiable bonafides. J Burns posts under his real name and has a least some credentials- no matter what anyone thinks of his products or opinions.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
Lee had to (try) to remain anonymous due to all the top secret projects he headed up for the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, NASA, CIA, NSA, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Grumman, FN, Army Corps of Enginners, HP, GM, BMW, Porsche NA....and that's just a snapshot of the US based companies he's led to success
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,245 Likes: 25
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,245 Likes: 25 |
Lee24 hid behind a screen name and had no verifiable bonafides. It was all.......proprietary. ROR.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
Lee had to (try) to remain anonymous due to all the top secret projects he headed up for the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, NASA, CIA, NSA, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Grumman, FN, Army Corps of Enginners, HP, GM, BMW, Porsche NA....and that's just a snapshot of the US based companies he's led to success I've worked with/for six on your list.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
Yes, but the difference is you most likely could prove that fact..............  I have to see if I can locate Lee's claimed resume again..
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,938 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,938 Likes: 1 |
JBurns meet Lee24
Lee24 meet JBurns
You two have alot in common....
hangunnr Touche, Oh yea JBurns tell us what balistics targeting software program that gives drops in 1/3 IPHY increaments. I know that you advertise them at 1/3 MOA, but .333 inch at 100 yards is inches per hundred yards not MOA. 1/3 MOA is .349 inches per hundred yards
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,179 Likes: 1 |
In 1976 I made an aluminum bedding block for a Remington 40XBR. I skim bedded over the block. With that rifle, point of impact still would change as the day warmed up; providing the temperature change was significant, that is. Now, 34 years later, it turns out the aluminum block was a cure for the "problem". Sadly, because I didn't even know I had a problem, the cure didn't take place. Or, maybe it did and I just didn't recognize it.
Today, I have two Model 70's with aluminum bedding blocks and three without. Darned if I can see any real performance difference. Again, I was not aware that it was scope and stock expansion differentials that caused my come-ups to vary from day to day by a click or two (does the action not play any part?)but, if it is, they all do it. You see, I had always just blamed it on varying air density and changes in ballistics due to temperature variation and was pretty happy believing that. Now, I'll be able to blame my ever-changing scope for those errant shots but I wonder if I should cast off my old ballistics beliefs or hold them in reserve in case I need them?
By the way, I've got a few steel tubed scopes, should I use these on the rifles with aluminum bedding blocks or are they best utilized on the plain glass bedded rifles? As well, I just put an aluminum scope on my new 280 and used steel bases; would I be better off switching to aluminum bases? Or, since it's a walnut stock with only glass bedding, am I just screwed anyway so shouldn't worry about it?
You know, this internet stuff really pays off. This is an old dog's opportunity to learn new tricks! GD
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,901 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,901 Likes: 1 |
JBurns meet Lee24
Lee24 meet JBurns
You two have alot in common....
hangunnr Low blow.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,901 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,901 Likes: 1 |
As well, I just put an aluminum scope on my new 280 and used steel bases; would I be better off switching to aluminum bases? Or, since it's a walnut stock with only glass bedding, am I just screwed anyway so shouldn't worry about it? That all depends on whether the sling studs are alloy or mono.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 68
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 68 |
I don't have a dog in this fight but the subject matter is of great interest to me so I took the time to figure out what John is trying to say. I actually believe he wrote it up somewhere but there's been such a flood of messages regarding Greybull's operation lately it's hard to point which thread contained that post. But I digress. I'm mainly interested with external ballistics and given any properly built and bedded rifle with decent optics, mounts and ammunition, I would claim that accounts for 99% of cold bore shot precision. That said, I find the hypothesis fascinating. All I'm saying is that I don't understand the connection between the bedding block and scope flexing/stretching from a temp change as if the action had little bearing on what you are describing. Ok, here's John's claim in a thousand words: ![[Linked Image]](http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm294/ruistola/misc/ThermalExpansion.gif)
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,419
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,419 |
I'm having flashbacks of Ross Perot...........
It wasn't the visualization most of us were having problems with, but rather the merit of the theory itself.
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