Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting 7mm mag on elk vs. heavier calibers

This IS a fun thread! I agree with the quote of the outfitter saying he had seen more misses/bad shots with a .300... I agree because this has been my experience also. Blowing My Own Horn: for what it's worth, I've guided hunters here in CO for over 30 years, licensed outfitter for 9, killed 49 elk myself if my journals are correct, and been in on the taking of a few hundred more I would guess. Among my clients, and a good number of my local friends, I have seen way too many missed or poorly made shots with the bigger magnums than with the "standards". I believe this is because the big 'un's recoil so hard most guys that I have seen using them flinch in some way. The guys I have seen that can shoot one well have shot them a lot and are no longer intimidated by heavy recoil. IME Most Hunters Can't Shoot A Magnum As Well As Something With Less Recoil. And we all agree that a bad hit is a bad hit. I have always advocated premium bullets in the magnums because the vast majority of shots are within 200 yards, usually less, and the magnums will ruin half an elk if you shoot them in the shoulder with a frangible bullet. I like to eat them, not shoot them into burger. We can shoot what ever we want. I used a .358 STA for a few years because I Wanted To. Again, IME magnums, any of them, Are Not Required to reliably kill elk. And I am not all that impressed with them until you start to talk long range. IMO that is where the magnums really shine on elk. Out to 300+ yards on elk the standards work well, at 400 and beyond I like the magnums. You can talk worse case scenerio, but if it looks like a risky shot, don't take it! Most of the arguement about magnums is guys who thing they can shoot into the next county with one. What about the guy who thinks he can blast away at any marginal shot because this magnum can shoot through anything. Any way, it's grand that we live in a country where we have game, own guns, and get to have this lively conversation. Carry on.

Awe Geez,John..How do we compare people who can take recoil without flinching and those that cannot?Something both of us have done, is shoot big Bore pistols,seems we can do it accurately but a whole bunch can't.Nothing like a 525 grain bullet at 1300+ fps out of a 7.5" barrel or a 300 at over 2,000 fps..My favorite is a 425 grain at 1600 fps..Not bad at all.

The point being,some can do it and enjoy it and others can't nor want to.If you can shoot a bigger bore as accurately as a smaller,why not use it especially,if you enjoy it?

A 41 MAG(.410) caliber handgun doesn't hit as hard as a 44 Mag(.429).(.019 difference in diameter).Same difference AS 7mm(.284) and .300 Win Mag(.308).(.024 difference)..No or r they equal in thump.

Jayco(In fun only no cranks allowed)

I saw the same Boddington quote in his book " Fair Chase"...the New Mexico bull was killed in 1972 with his 270 and the 150 NP...

I'm pretty taken with the notion of BIG handguns, I just never have been able to master the recoil. I got half way proficient with a .44 shooting 325 gr hardcasts at 1300fps, but it took all my concentration. I guess I tend to be one of those guys in my own post, the one's who aren't really good with too much recoil.

They certainly do take a lot of concentration

Rifle recoil, at least to the extent I've taken it (.338, 45/70, .325 from a very light rifle) ain't no big thang to me; just doesn't bug me like it does some.

Handgun recoil is a whole other animal. I sold my 44 mag revolver; just couldn't get over the hump with that thing.

When some talk about JJ Hack and Craig Boddington and Boddingtons quote, he only shot 20 Elk or so back in '72 or something like that, forget all the other animals they have shot as big and bigger than a Rocky Mountain Elk.

Many say some of that African game is way tougher than an Elk.I don't have a clue.If so,what's the beef..Numbers are just that with a little bragging thrown in.

I suppose someone like Jim H has seen a ton of hunters shooting game and Craig has shot a ton of animals from A-Z..

Kinda weird to here people put 'em down only because they don't say what some want to here or they believe different.

Who are we to listen to if it ain't from the likes of Craig/Jim and John B, especially those just learning.How are they to sift through the post and pick out the BS compared too?

John B hasn't chimed in on the 7MM versus larger bore and effects but the other two have saying the .300's are a much better choice,in there vast experiences,if you can shoot it.

Jayco

1972 isn't right, thinking it was more like mid 90's or later wasn't it?

Dober

cobrad: Good post and well stated!

I don't think this thread was ever about what the "best" elk cartridge is....if going bigger makes an elk cartridge "better" we can logically conclude that an 8 pound 378 Weatherby is lkely at the top of the heap.....(but if we go there,some 300 mag fan will jump up and down and say the rifles are too heavy and the cartridge kicks too much.....sound familiar?)

The thread was about how the 7mm mag does when it comes to killing elk,and how it compares to heavier calibers....

Craig Boddington obviously has a lot of experience,but in having followed him for years, I have always found him to be something of a cartridge schizophrenic.....I have never seen a writer more capable of making subtle distinctions between essentially similar cartridges....I enjoy him but for years he was impossible to follow.

Besides, before him there were others of equal or more experience when it comes to elk,Les Bowman being the most noteworthy...he invented the 7 Rem Mag for one purpose.....to kill elk at long and uncertain range,to be fired in rifles portable enough to be lugged in rough country,and yet at a recoil level that most could handle.He saw too much lousy shooting and wounded elk from guys who "thought" they could handle the recoil from belted 30's,too....they turned out to be full of BS...it's still true today.

The cartridge was not invented in a corporate board room to bulk up rifle sales like the WSM's(which are nothing more than short fat standard belted mags). It was field tested by Bowman for about 4 years, Mike Walker from Remington, and Wayne Leek of Remington,at Bowman's ranch in the Bighorn Mountains of Wyoming.

The prototype rifle was used by Bowman and his clients to kill elk, moose, many grizzlies,black bear,antelope and mule deer as a wildcat before it saw the light of day as a factory round.Very few commercial cartridges have received that kind of "in the field" development prior to introduction so far as I know......

While this was going on,Warren Page and Bob Hagel were running around knocking off everything that walked with the 7mm Mashburn,Page doing it all over the globe..........and elk are crumbling every year to 270's.

So,how does it compare to heavier calibers?

What difference does it make? It does what it was designed to do....kill elk, near and far.

Bob
Am I remembering correctly when I recall that Jack O'Connor said that Bowman told him he thought the 150 grain bullets killed better than the factory 175 bullets?
A point to consider here is that when the 7 Remington Magnum hit the street, it was loaded to about the same velocities that the 7 Remington Ultra Magnum is loaded now-

Fred

Bob

Why is everyone picking on Boddington and leaving JJ Hack alone?They have the very same conclusions about the 7MM on Elk sized game.

Just curious.

Jayco

Dober...you are right it was February 2002 ..page 64 of B&C publication by Boddington...Fair Chase In North America....

Guess my mind was back in time to when JOC was killing elk with his 270!!

I am no expert on Elk since I have shot only 10 and have never used the 7 mags...all my Elk have been taken with the 270, 30-06 and 300 Wby...but from my limited experiences I see no reason the 7's would not be great for Elk ....especially since the 270 does an excellent job on Elk....

Thought it was a short while back, man do time fly though eh..?

And you're absolutely right, the big 7's are wonderful for elk, or at least that's been my experience..

Here's a Mashburn elk, oops pic didn't work give me a bit me and puters

Dober

Mashburn Bull from 2009

Dober

I spent some time with a friend of Jim Hackowitz..Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges a few months ago and he assured me that Jim was and is the real deal(because I asked), and to listen to what he has to say, coming from a man with vast experiences with his own ammo line.

And yes,my wife and I are invited back to stay at there extra cottage anytime.

Dang..Boddington and Jim can't both be wrong,can they?

jayco

06 bull from this fall, amazing these darn rat gunz kill elk..grin

Dober

Dober...that is a great bull.... I have never used any of the 7's but after visiting with Bob...I am seriously thinking about a Mashburn...

I just happen to know someone who has a reamer and a ton load of loading data so hop to it!

Dober

Mark I can sure see why good glass is at a premium in your locale!

Even over in Eastern Oregon where I hunt elk, barring clearcuts or fire, if you are on a ridge like that looking out, you pretty much just see treetops ... that said we do have areas like that and I'm gonna hunt them soon for deer mostly and that's where a nice light 7mag starts looking pretty good to me...

IMHO if I am going to deal with magnum muzzle blast and recoil I am going to go with a 300 Win mag over a 7mm Rem mag every time. And if I was going to deal with 7mm Mashburn, STW, Rum recoil and muzzle blast I would rather step up to a 300 ultra with a 200gr Accubond at 3200fps.
I have owned a 7mm Weatherby, a 7mm ultra and a 280 Remington and the 280 is the only one I kept.
I love magnums as much as anyone, but to be honest I am getting sick of dealing with them and anymore find myself grabbing my 25-06, 270, 0r 280 first.