Any appreciable difference, near or far? Thanks!

Troublemaker.......

No.... I'm considering just retubing the Montana I've got (.325 to 7wsm). I've seen what it does to elk as a .325 and it's pretty excellent. Just wondering how much, if any, of a terminal-effect "hit" I might take by stepping down.

You and DoberDawg have said you think not much changes from 7mm through the .30's and .33's until you get all the way to .375. Just looking for more data points.

Though I'm reasonably certain there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth here... it won't be from lil' ol' me.

Just twistin' them....

Well, you could sure do that...keep the 8mm barrel and if you don't like the 7mm, just put it back on.....I doubt you'll be unhappy with it. Just use good boolits and have at it...I think it would be a really good rig myself.

I say you will never know the difference and neither will the elk. I have a shot a 300 ultra with 180 grain partition for alot of years. Most years I kill several doe's/fawns. I have shot many doe's/fawns that have run off even after breaking one shoulder (they all died of course).

If a 80-100 pound deer does not know that a fire breathing magnum is supposed to knock them down and out I don't think you could shoot a big enough bullet to impress a elk. If the bullet destroys vital stuff it will not matter if it weighs 150 grains, 168 grains, 175 grains or 200 grains. Just my opinion of course.

Dink

While old Bob doesn't agree,I think the .300 Win Mag does alot better job putting them down than the 7mm aka Remington Mag.One could ask if the 7MM puts 'em down better than the 270 Win.Not from what I have seen but the .300 WM with 180 Noslers just makes an impression on them I haven't seen from the 7MM.

But that's experiences as they go...

Jayco

Jeff-I can't even begin to imagine how many elk one would have to kill with the 325 and the 7 to ever sort out if there was any visiable diff as to how they killed.

Stick a good bullet in a good place and good things will happen is my motto..<g>

I personally feel (note I said feel, not sure it could be proven) that when I get to the .340 Bee (and at long ranges) that there at times is a bit more effect. Meaning the bull/cow reacts visibly more to the hit, but at the closer ranges I don't feel there's much for diff.

As well, even though the elk may react a bit more to the hit from the bigger rounds, I don't personally feel that they hit the terra firma any quicker than with a well placed round from my Mashburn and or .270...

The one problemo I face as I mature (ok I turned mid life 52 the other day) is that the bigger rounds aren't as much fun as they used to be in terms of recoil. Especially for a rig that I will carry and at a weight I'll carry where I hunt elk. I refuse to do brakes on a gun and I more and more want nothing to do with a 9 lb or more all up rifle in the locale where I hunt elk.

Fact is, I prefer it to be 8 1/4 all up at most and a 340 at that weight is a bit less fun than I wish to deal with anymore.

But....a 375 (H&H and or Ruger) can be all up @ 8 lbs and still be very user friendly, and capable. Plus with a 6x36 with dotz in it it's a complete rock star...!

Dober

Gracias buddy.

I've pretty much decided to give a medium "7" a run; retubing my .325 is the cheapest path forward but man oh man.... talk about messing with success!

I'd still have my excellent .338WM but, in the spirit of messing with success, it'd likely get bobbed to 23" to make it a more palateable carry as a general purpose elk rifle.

In essence, I'd go from:

30-06, .325, .338

to 30-06, 7wsm, .338

as my elk rifles.

The primary reason here is, as we discussed, to have a light 7wsm as a mule deer/antelope rifle for a few open country hunts I'm planning in the next two seasons.

SO I'd be taking a known-good elk whacker and making it a 7wsm which I'm thinking might still at least slow an elk down long enough for me to get a fang in him <grin>.

Could make the 325 a switch barrel

Would that .325 be the one that broke your Elk Jinx?

Elk were your arch-nemisis,No?

And you want to break up this proven winner..

Bad,Bad juju......

Spend more time hunting and less time crushing brain cells with this crap.

I have shot a few elk with the 7mm Rem Mag and could not tell the difference between it and the .30-06 that I had been using. That said, when I began hunting areas where I could actually choose which bull that I would shoot, I have found the .300 mags and the .338s to be more effective from my point of view. I have also taken big bulls with a .375 H&H, the 9.3x62 and the 9.3x74R. With these larger bores, elk tend to die where I can see them or at least within hearing, something that did not always happen with the '06 or the 7 mag. Maybe I have just become more deliberate in putting the bullet where I want it.

Recoil, as Mark noted, can be tolerable or not, depending on stock configuration. As I have aged, I find that I can tolerate a little more recoil each year, but I also don't shoot rifles with stocks that don't feel right.

Another factor may be my "bench". I used to have a bench anchored in concrete just off my front porch. After I left the ranch, I shot off of a number of portable benches, none of which worked quite as well as I would have liked. A couple of years ago, I built a surface that I mounted on my Polaris Ranger that serves as my bench for load development and sighting in. It is very stable and it requires that I shoot standing up, which helps a lot with rifles that push back.

Mudhen: thanks!

Kenneth: yeah, that'd be the one....

+1

Jayco

After 19 bulls taken with a 7rem mag, I switched to a 300 RUM. Killed two bulls with the RUM. I didn't see any difference in the kills and now I'm back to using my 7 mag.

Why switch when you know your 325 does a great job??

I won't argue with jayco, who knows more about killin' elk than I do ,

and I have slapped them down with 300 Wins and 300 Weatherby's myself. I know what those cartridges will do......

OTOH, I do have here a video of me shooting a bull with a 7RM that collapsed like an empty puppet and cascaded down the mountain......he was pretty loose from a 160 Partition to the shoulder...

And the next will be with a 175 Bitterroot at 3050 from the new 7mmMashburn....I already know the outcome.....

I admire your confidence Bob. I'm sure the mashburn will hammer an elk just like it did your buck this year.

Well Bob..This isn't a lawyer visions a couple weeks a year versus a logger's experiences year around, is it...

I say that with humor as I do like you and your post..Working in the woods from day one of hunting season and watching and seeing daily,Elk being killed by the crew or just driving by and helping out the flatland4ers that got in over there heads..I have learned a lot..When a guy walks up to the crummy/skidder/jammer or landing,huffing and puffing needing help getting his animal out..He ain't macho and is free mouthed for the help he always got.

Not arguing with anyone..Just saying what I have seen that goes over 100 Elk, that I never shot..Just helping out for a little meat for the effort.

I won't ad mine as I am a die hard Nosler man and for a reason as well as calibers.Of the ones I have personally shot,the 300 Win Mag makes more of an impression time after time than a 270 Win ad thats important in steep country.

I hope you don't take offense,Bob but thats hunting which takes me back saying we all need to listen to others with the experience and experiences they have had.

No one is above still learning and if they think they know it all about Elk hunting,there a fool.....

Just an opinion from doing it since 1952.

Jayco

No Jayco,absolutely not..... I meant it...I bow to superior knowledge in these matters.It just is not in the cards for me to know/see what you have seen.....because I do not have the experience you do.

I admit the 300's are more gun than any 7mm because they shoot heavier bullets with more frontal area;they hit hard,too.....but I can't shoot them and carry them like I did when I was in my 30's,so for me it's gotta be a 7mm from now on....I'll just shoot the best bullets I can, and try to point it straight.

Just cause I'm a lawyer, does not mean I'm dumb....I don't argue with Idaho woodsmen when it comes to elk calibers

What makes it interesting is when two guys who've both seen many many elk die, disagree 180�. That's what keeps me scratching my head- two experts in sometimes complete opposition.

So many variables....

Not when a quality bullet is placed in the correct location, all the Elk will do is go straight down

Bob

Unlike most of the people here,I still want to learn and have learning to do, and I have been doing it for years.Once anything gets boring,I quit doing it.That was my point on the Ray A post but it went South to the tons of people with more experience than him..Yeah right.

Hunting is for food only for me.I have never spent .10 cents on a guide or packing it out.I still prefer the pre '75 rules in Idaho everywhere,any Elk and I chose Cows,if I had the choice for the table,now it's Spikes if I have the choice.

Back on topic...Only from what I have seen,the 7MM does not impress me.

The 7MM could "Maybe" have handled this "Legal" Idaho Wolf.



Jayco

It's not a switch... I'd lose a rifle that is primarily an elk rifle but would work ok for mule deer and antelope.... But gain a rifle that would primarily be for mule deer and antelope but would work ok for elk. And that's a rifle I'd like to have this next couple seasons. Got some deer and 'lope points I'm going to cash in on.

So my perception is that I'd be downgrading my Montana a bit as an elk rifle, going from .325 WSM to 7WSM but I'm all ears. I'd love to come away convinced that the 7wsm is fully the equal.

It's a rifle shuffle basically and ties into other rifles I already have. I'll spare you the details <g>.

My wife has an oray of rifles to choose from to hunt with, yet her favorite Elk rifle is her 8MM Mauser.She smacked her last Elk dead with the measly factory ammo offered.It's a smacker and if I had a modern version of the 8MM aka 325 Mag..I wouldn't change a thing.

Just my opinion based on seeing what the 8MM can do.

Jayco

One of the points I've strongly drawn from the 'fire over the years, is that if a hunt goes south, don't blame the headstamp. Just saying Jeff, maybe don't get too wrapped around the axle about which one is "idealer" on elk, and do what you want to do knowing it'll work out fine.

Jeff- You seriously think about this stuff way too much. You know either would work for either type of hunt. If you want to try it, try it.

A 7WSM is a lesser Elk rifle?

JFC..

Many a successful hunter has reported that killing critters is the easy part, something that sails WAAAAY over Jeffy's head.

In the meantime, we'll have 10 pages of him pulling his hair out over what to do with a rifle.

I would say go with the 7 saum rather than the wsm since you will probably be handloading for either one, I just like the saum better in a short action feeding wise. However, I just bought another 270wsm in a Winchester Extreme Weather, which does almost exactly the same thing that my current 7mm saum does. Just because I wanted one.

My wife thinks I am nuts. I can't disagree.

Holy Crap please don't tell me wolves get that phuggin big. I can only imagine the havoc a pack of those things does on anything living in their area. Great Photo

Oldelkhunter

Not to take away from this thread and to answer your question..They do..Here is another Idaho Wolf taken legally by the teenager watching the Wildlife agent do his thing.

Can you imagine a pack of these after your kiester..



Just to stay on topic here.A good friends wife got in the middle of a pack of Wolves after a treed Bobcat and she was carrying a 7MM Mag..To make a long story short,she ran out of bullets but then again,so would the .300 Win Mag.

I now carry my 45 acp with a 10 round clip along hunting.Off to watch Mantracker. I think Bob ad I could beet him.

Jayco

Yup and yup.

Don't forget to get your prostate checked. 4 months to 60, will never have prostate problems again...

I guess you cant read between lines...

Their both telling you both calibers will work..

By the way, You have interjected numerous times that money is tight..

Take the guns you have and JUST GO HUNTING.....

My wife says I have a hard time making decisions, She should meet you...

Dead is dead.

Anyone that doesn't believe a 7 Mag or WSM won't kill an elk as far out as a person should be shooting is just flat out wrong.

Pick a decent bullet and put it in the boiler room for very predictable results.

Dave

I know both will work.

It's 11 months till hunting season. I'm into rifles. I'd like to have my idea of "the" open-country rifle when I cash in 11 years of deer points here soon. I've got FIVE bona-fide elk rifles ('06, two .325's, .338, 300WM). I'm just exploring how to get from where I am, to where I'd like to be in 11 months.

Sheesh man! Since when we don't overthink rifles here?!

I think thats the problem, you really do "overthink" rifles.

You have an '06 and a 300 whiz mag and you think you dont have an "open country" rifle?

A 150 grain TSX(grin) in the 300 and what do you think you would be missing? IS there a flatter shooting rig? I dont want to hear about some ballistic chart that says 3/10ths of an inch at 400 yards either..

For the record, I'm as crazy as you. I'm ready to grab another .243 when I all ready have one. This one will be my varmint/target gun. Really, like the first .243 couldnt do that..

My 300WM is a Sendero with a big scope. Good rifle, and it'll make the trip, but in my perfect world I'll also have a very light, very accurate 7wsm or the like.

But yes, a man with a 30-06 doesn't "need" anything.

Right now I'm exploring the idea of retubing my Montana vs. buying another and retubing it, basically. Trying to figure out what I might lose in the process- if anything- on elk taking it from .325 to 7WSM.

I blame Bob and Dober <grin>.....

Jeff, didn't your mom ever tell you just because Bob has a mashburn; that doesn't mean you need to have one

Lol....

Dober is like "The Pusher" with that Mash reamer... now he's converted Bob, lord help us, two of the good guys ganging up, next thing you know it'll be .223AI vs. 7Mash.......

bsa: Heck I built the Mashburn because I was itching for another rifle ; something I would actually use and not let gather dust.....and thought the project would be fun...(I had not had a wildcat in a good many years)and not because I needed it,for sure.Plus Dober and Docbill seemed to be the only Mashburn users on here,and I had always been curious about the cartridge.

I like Partitions as a hunting bullet;the Mashburn makes the heavy 160-175 gr bullets go fast as I need them,and it seemed like a very nice balance of carry weight,tolerable recoil,lethal effect,and ranging ability. The fact that the 7mm's have taken everything in North America,and in Africa as well,didn't hurt either.

We see JB,AGW,Ingwe, and others on here knocking off elk and moose and critters of the same size in Africa with 7x57's;Scenar rolls them with a 308,near and far.....

I don't worry about calibers much any more,which is why I shoot/own so few....and I ain't gonna lose a moments sleep worrying about whether the same range of 7mm bullets, at higher velocity,is gonna work on a bull elk. To me it's just this great,big non-issue..

There are far more imortant things to worry about....like getting to go elk hunting.If I can do that, I don't really much care, within reason, what I use

Well said and philosophically impregnable Bob. If this was a rational thing.

I think there's a Commandment somewhere though that says, he who carries expensive custom rifle in obscure chambering, shall not laugh at others overthinking same! Lol. Or maybe it's a Chinese proverb. Sumptin'.

Jeff: I could not agree more....get what you want and hunt it with confidence....that's my point.

Kenneth �

It�s a sickness shared by many. I should know�

For 20 years my 7mm RM killed elk with boring efficiency. In 2001 I added a Marlin in .375 Winchester, then a Marlin .45-70 in 2002. A .257 Roberts went into the safe in January 2004 and a .300 Win Mag joined it that Christmas. Like a rock rolling down a steep slope and gathering speed, the rifles came faster and faster - .30-30, .308 Win, three .30-06s and a 6.5-06AI. Now I�m slowly putting together another custom, just need the barrel.

It used to be I�d grab my 7mm RM, stoked with 160g Grand Slams and, for backup, my Browning B92 in .44 Mag with 240g FP�s and go hunting. Simple. These days I spend 11 months thinking about which rifle to use and what bullets to load it with. Things tend to narrow down fairly quickly but it is common to make the final decision based on the last range session.

The upside is I spend those 11 months having fun, whether it is playing with new bullets and loads or tweaking old ones or just practicing with loads I�ve already developed. So much more fun than boring simplicity�

Jeff, I would get rid of all the guns you mentioned, get a moderate weight(8lb) 300wsm,win mag, or ultra mag and stop worrying about sorting fly shat from pepper.

Bob.. I really think for Elk the Mashburn could be on the light side using those 160 and 175s.......why don't you consider a caliber shooting a 250 grain bullet at say 2,940+ fps...seems like Elmer once recommended such a cartridge for Elk...

The .340 is a very good contender for the title of elk round as well. I wore out a couple barrels trying to convince myself it was a better round for elk than my Mashburn....grin

Dober

7mm, shy on Elk??? Shirly you jest. I believe that Less Bowman took the 338 win case and necked it to 7mm and let his Elk hunting clients use it. He then convinced Remington to commercialize the cartridge, because it was so effective on Elk

Pretty sure he was saying it TIC...right?

Side note, good to see others who knew Bowman writings now that man had his stuff together!!

Dober

Hagel liked the 340 too...but I like more bullet mass and therefore am not a 340 fan...I once knew a fella who did some test using a heavier caliber vs the 340 and the heavier caliber won hands down out to 400 yards...the limit to which I would shoot any game animal...I think his test may also include the Mashburn....in fact maybe he would do such a test and provide us with the results...would be interesting...

Huh...what heavier cal than 340 was he using and kind of a test was he doing to sort this out?

And yeah, I recall Bob liking the .340. For some reason or another after meeting him I gravitated to both the Mash and the .340...grin

Also, what do you like for more bullet mass on elk than what the .340 has to offer? I shot the 275's a fair bit but mainly on chucks/yotes etc.

Dober

Mark...just messing with you about the Mashburn...I knew Art back when I lived in OKC...and have talked to Bobin NH several times about the Mashburn...I believe Hagel even used his Mashburn on animals the size of AY Moose with no problems...the test with the 340 and 375 H&H were interesting to say the least..the 340 was the 210 Nosler and the 375 H&H with the 250...maybe we can talk Bobin NH into doing another test vs the Mashburn..as far as the 340 I still have mine but after my 1st Grizzly hunt I went to the 375....of course Bob Hagel informed me I was making a mistake...but 18 shots and 14 NA bears later the ol' 375 H&H with BBCs are still doing the job...in all fairness to the 340 I most likely picked the wrong bullet on my 1st Grizzly...

The bullets are the most important element in which caliber penetrates the most

Yep I agree...that is why I use BBC and Nosler Partitions...and to a lesser degree Carter's Trophy Boned from Texas...not Federal stuff..

I had a thread over a year back titled "In defense of big rifles"* that a number of you contributed to. There was some good stuff in that thread from a lot of people with a lot of experience. If I was going to pare down a couple observations from that thread:

Bullets that take out vital functions make things dead. That's true if it's a .243 for elk or a 7x57 for elephant. Everybody knows this 'cause it's actually been done. But...

...at what point is there an ADVANTAGE to more rifle? The 2nd rifle I ever owned (and the 1st I purchased with my own money) was a 7mmRM. Especially with modern bullets it's silly to think you can't make a killing shot from any sane distance on an elk. When I considered stepping up I didn't really think there was much to gain with a .300 but instead went to a .338. (Actually a .340 Bee) I personally think there's an advantage but as far as "power" is concerned most people seem to think there's a law of diminishing returns and I tend to agree. Is there a way to measure it? Not that I can tell. But will anybody argue that a +30 mag won't cover a 7mm's bets 100% of the time? I won't, and I doubt I'm alone. What about the other way? For an identical shot would a .340 make a difference 1% of the time? 2%? 5% maybe? For argument let's say it does. Is that enough? Is it worth the extra cost of weight and recoil? (I'm with Dober in that as I get older carrying the Bee is becoming more a deal breaker than the recoil. And no, that doesn't mean I should just go out and have a 7lb .340 built )

Something to ponder; if you had a "magic" rifle that was identical in every way to your favorite 7mm (or 308/'06/etc) but could fire .340's with no increase in recoil or muzzle blast would you prefer it over the non-magical calibers? Why? So you'd take the ballistics if you got them for free? If the answer is yes then you DO believe there at least MIGHT be an advantage...but without "magic" rifles you have to decide if that "might" is worth the cost.

*For any that might have missed it but want to peruse that earlier thread for more on the topic:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3067972/1

Jeff anyone who thinks there is a practical difference between a 7mm 30 or 33 cal in in the lungs of a elk is only kidding themselves.A good bullet and shot placement is the key.

Wasted keystrokes, bro..

Anyone who wasn't hooked to a bong all waking hours (and looking to save some bucks) would buy one of those cheep A7's in .300 WSM and START LEARNING about hunting elk and open country muleys..

Yeah, I think it was right here when dober hooked Bob (hook line and sinker):


Absolutely nothing wrong with it though. Maybe they're on to something here. I've heard there's nothing you can't do with a 175 gr. nosler partiton (or similarly constructed bullet) in one of these things.

Dober; OU76 is talking about drop tests to 400 yards my pal, Paul and I did a few years back with his 340 and the 210 Partition at 3125, against my 375 with the 250's at 2900+.

Paul is an engineer, astute ballistically,and a good shot.We got to the targets,and the results had him scratching his head.....I remember his comment...."......uh...this can't be right....where are you holding?" So, we did it again.....and again...Short of it,the 375 was staying right along with the 340 with those particular bullets.

Now things could change with other bullets available today....but I will hook up with Paul and his 340 after the seasons and Holidays are done,and run the same tests again to post results.

Were the scope hieghts the same and were both sithed in at the same distance. What was the BC of the bullets tested


Although 400 yards is really not far enough for the advantage of one over the other to really show up

John they were both 4X Leupolds mounted in low rings;Paul's on a Weatherby Mark V,left hand in a Brown stock.Mine on a pre 64 M70 action.

I don't know the BC's without looking it up.....250 Sierra SPBT,which gives same POI to 400 as the 250 BBC I use.Paul's was the 210 Partition.Both loads chronographed more times than I recall.

I agree that 400 is not the whole story,but that is what we did;nevertheless,it surprised us both how similar they were.

I can tell you for sure.....that FL blown out H&H necked to 35 cal,and with a 250 at 3000+ leaves them both behind,and stays with a 300 Weatherby to 500....kicks like hell, though

The 7mm do well but when you step it out past say 600 yards the 338 mags deliver far more energy/payload and just simply do it better.Get out there to 1000+ yards the 338's performance walks away from the 7mm's no contest.

Im far from an expert having only personally tipped over 14 elk in 21 years of hunting and watched another 12 or so taken by others, but as said many times before caliber doesn't really matter, placement matters most.

I've never personally owned a 7Rm or the wsm version, but I do have a few under my belt with the 7stw and 7rum and aside from a bit flatter trajectory at the cost of weight and barrel length I don't think any of them died any faster or more dramatically then the several I've seen shot with normal run of the mill calibers like the 270, 30-06, 308, 7mm-08's etc.

I don't think one really sees a notable increase in on target performance until looking at the big 33's.

Hell the most impressive reaction I've ever seen on elk was from a 11 year old girl shooting a middle of the road load in a .243 with the 85gt tsx's at a shade under 150yds.

The bull was quartering hard away and with instruction she put the bullet about 10" behind the shoulder running it through the chest and out just in front of the off side shoulder. At the shot the bull simply dropped, no other reaction was seen by the 3 of us ready to back her up.

Final result was one happy little girl who did it without any help except where to aim.

I'm not sure the 338rum in my hands at the time shooting 210tsx's at 3350 fps could have done any better.

That is not tough to figure,and if you are into shooting elk at 1000 yards, a 338 is likely a good way to go.It really doesn't interest me at all.

The are no fly's on the 375 H&H to 5 o 6 hundred yards IME in fact, I killed my farthest Elk with a 375 H&H and the 285 grain Speer Grand Slam at an estimated 500 yards

Is it okay to bring the bong to huntin' camp???

(grin)


Seriously though, the A7/300WSM is pretty sweet.

Ol' Rancho and his "bong rips".... lol... gonna start calling him "Johnny Flashback" here... I think the last bong I've seen was at least 20 years ago. But we'll let him have his fun. As a libertarian I could care less what ol' Rancho does with his free time.

I'm not debating him- he's too addled 24/7 as far as I can tell- but I can't resist saying I've hunted elk every chance I've had, with some very experienced guys, and we hunt hard and do ok, given the quality of the tags we hunt. You guys have it good in Montana and good for you, but the high horse routine gets a bit old. That old "born on 3rd base but acting like you hit a triple" thing comes to mind. Nuff said.

As to mule deer we get ONE BUCK TAG. I've opted to hunt blacktails with my ONE BUCK TAG that I get in a year.

Sam, the "high horse" and so on wasn't aimed at you... you're horse ain't so high... grin...

Jeff, you only got part of that right. I DIDN'T GET MY BUCK TAG this year!!!! Oregon sucks for drawing tags that you put in for. I like hunting Mulies (being from Nevada and all) so I choose to go east to the Ochoco's. Hopefully I'll draw one next year. Take care, bsa.

Well, you still could have bought an OTC blacktail tag... but your point is a good one. Most decent mulie tags are far from an every-year thing in Oregon.

As a group the Montana guys are my favorite crew around here. Generally knowledgeable without being overbearing about it. But those people living in areas with literally "the best" elk hunting, and tons of deer tags, need to remember it's not like that for everyone.... there's no train of trucks heading from Montana to Oregon every hunting season but the opposite is true, I've seen it... lol....

What I do appreciate very much is the experience related from those in a target rich environment. Guys like logcutter and Dober have been in on more elk kills than I could be around in three lifetimes here in Oregon...though of course they disagree <grin>. That's the head-scratcher part.

Bob...while there are no flies on the Mashburn or 340 Wby...or 375 with the right bullets...I would be interested in testing the Mashburn with the 375 and 340.....400 yards is the limit that I shoot at a game animal..in fact I know a couple fellas that have exceeded that 3000 with the 250 in 375...

I don't disagree with Dober/Bob or anyone else.I just state what I have seen and do not doubt there experiences because experiences differ.Nothing is written in stone when it comes to hunting.I expect the unexpected.

Kinda like the Mule Deer taste thread..I do not like Idaho sagebrush eating Mule Deer and I have ate a ton of them.I much prefer Whitetails or a Doe atleast..I have never ate Montana/Canadian or any other Mule Deer so I can't comment on there taste.

Different strokes for different folks doesn't make anyone wrong,just different experiences and outcomes.If everyone thought the same it would be a boring world.

Jayco

Do it already, Jeff!

From the I'd have to see it to believe it camp here's a bit of JBM ballistics data to consider when comping the 340 and the 375 at long range.

I used, the 210 Noz @ 3125 out of the .340 and the 250 Sie out of the 375 @ 2900. Both doable speeds but also for the most part at the top end of most barrels IME.

I used a zero of right on @ 100 yds and this is what the JBM program shows (I used the same elevation and temp for both as well)

340
100=0
400=minus 22.1
500=minus 40.7
600=minus 66.2

375
100=0
400=minus 27.5
500=minus 50.5
600=minus 82.4

If my late night math is right this is how the two comp when comparing drops at long range

The 340 drops less on all accounts:

400=there is 5.4" more on the 375
500=there is 9.8" more on the 375
600=there is 16.2" more on the 375

Not a biggie to me as I used dotz and it would be stupido easy to set up either round to hit to 500 to 600 with them. But, there is a diff, at least when run via the computer.

But, this is all moot as I don't use my 340 much anymore and if I wanted to tote a gun with more omph that my Mashburn I'd build a 375 H&H and or Ruger that would go 8 lbs all up at most.

I have a 375 Wby now, but it's tube is a bit much (heavy) just don't shoot it much anymore (couple hundred rounds a year or so).

For giggles though I'd love to run amuck with a 8lb or less 375 and fill up a few arks with it. I'd use a 4 wt Schneider cut to 23", my old 700, Brown handle, Jewell, Talley's, 6x36 with dotz and enough gas to give a 260 Accu 2800 or so and rock on.

No yotes would be safe with this combo rocking...grin

End of "BG" for the night (ballistic gack)

Dober

Disclaimer...<g> this is only what the balistic puter tells us and not meant to doubt others K...?

Dober

Geez...I was just gettin' good and steamed....

Hey, I didn't even mention the 7X...grin

Wanna hit X crick in Dec?

Dober

Its closed and you cant get them to rise to a dry fly through a hole in the ice anyway...

Dober: We zeroed them both up 3" high at 100 yards;so zeroed, the 375 is down about 14" at 400 yards,and the 340 was in the same neighborhood....as I recall(we have not done this again in a few years)there was not enough difference in the two that we noticed,from two shooters actually shooting the rifles.

No doubt, that dots will make up any difference but there were no dots when we ran the test.

And when I considered that one was a 210 gr-338 bullet, and the other a 250 gr 375, I thought it showed pretty well for the 375.I don't recall running them to 500 yards,but sorta concluded here was not much I could pull off with one that I could not pull off with the other.

When both are zeroed at 250...Barnes # 3...shows 14.03 drop for 340 with 210 and 15.46 drop for 250 in 375 at 400 yards..

OU: About what we were getting with 4X scopes and rifles in hand;actual shooting,and any differences could be lost in the "hold",or in the group size....when we consider one is a 250 gr payload,and larger bore diameter, it speaks well for the 375H&H.

I'd be content with either one....but I don't need both

Agreed...that is why I picked the 375 H&H...over the 340 some 25 years ago after my first trip to Alaska.....

With a 250 yard zero...Barnes # 3 shows the drop at 400 yards when both 340 and 375 are using the 250s to be 15.74 for the 340 and 15.46 for the 375 .....

By comparisons the Big 7s with 175 show 400 drop to be 14.51...with 160 to be 12.72...

300 Weatherby with 180s 400 yard drop shows to be 13.64...

All "BG" aside but if I were to start looking for a big gun all over again I'd no doubt go 375 (over the 340). It's more user friendly especially in a rifle weight I'm willing to tote around these days.

My first 340 went 8 1/4 lb and from time to time wasn't all that much fun when I was shooting chucks/pd's etc. But, it was certainly manageable. Anymore, I don't wish to carry a rifle that heavy so for me the 375 would be the way to go.

By my way of thinking as long as I've a lightweight .270, my Mashburn that's a bit heavier and a 375 I could hunt the world several times over. And if I failed to fill an ark or three it wouldn't be cause of round choice.

As my Grandad once told me (when I was making excuses about a miss) the round will go where you direct it...grin

Dober

(side note and last bit of BG on this thread from me but when I go to comping rounds to see how they'll both run I always use a zero @ 100 so both rounds are starting out pretty much the same. IME using a zero of say 250 or so doesn't paint the true apples to apples pic. But, that's just my way and it don't have to be anyone elses)

Shoot straight and hunt often!

I think you have one of the best right now in the Mashburn for 26 of NA 29 big game species...my combo for NA is 270, 30-06, 300 Wby and 375..I use my 375 only for the big bears of NA...Coastal Grizzly of BC and Alaska, Kodiak Brown Bears and Polar Bears...or combo hunts in Alaska for Moose and Brown Bears...

Well.

Last night I swapped my 22" '06 into the stock that my 26" .338 lives in, to get an idea of how my .338 would feel with the barrel cut back. It felt really good. I hate 26" tubes on sporters.

That matters because, suitability of a 7-mag on elk notwithstanding, if I convertt my. 325 to 7mm then my .338 will likely become my first-choice elk rifle.

I've also convinced myself that even though I'm a recoil absorbing device of some repute <grin>, having my Montana be a bit less "sporty" could only help shoot it even better.

A financial analysis of the sitcheration shows a $1300 difference between retubing what I've got vs. buying another and retubing.

And on a tactical Internet forum pizzing match level, rocking a 7mm ain't never not a good thing <g>.

Gonna call Pac Nor today and ask how much to also chase the threads on the .325 tube they'd be pulling off, so that it'd be a fairly straightforward deal to spin that .325 tube back on there if I decided I'd made a horrible mistake! (I think as part of "squaring the action" they true up the threads on the receiver so that's why...)

Thinking Step One is getting my .338 cut back and then verifying that I didn't just ruin the best factory out-of-the-box rifle I've ever bought. If the. 338 is in a more pleasing config AND still holding sub-moa, then messing with the .325 Kimber is less... scary. Lol.

Thanks for the discussion fellers, much appreciated. Couldn't overthink it without ya!

The color off the tape on the barrel can change every thing, blue tape gives about a 100 yards more range than does the black tape, even though they both start with a "B"

Jeff-in a heart beat I'd cut that 33 back to 23"!

Dober

What IS wrong with you???

Don`t you realize the .325 was developed to REPLACE all else?

America NEEDS a great 8mm.

Anyway, what`s a silly millimeter gonna get ya? Really??

Funny thing is- I'll still own a .325! I got two of 'em.

Dober- I hear ya; I'm going to like it better at 23". I'm just hoping/praying that the mojo in that barrel isn't in that last few inches! If it is you'll hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from montucky because I will have just screwed up a Very Good Rifle.

But if ya wanna make an omelette ya gotta break some perfectly good rifles eggs, right?

U could always use some blue duck tape to put it back on...ork ork ork

You're gonna love it at 23" and the mojo that comes out of a barrel cut to an odd number you just can't believe.

Dober

I have seen 10 of 11 elk shot in the last 3 years from my buddy and me. 5 each from 7rm and 338rum. I can tell no difference. The die when hit in the chest, and require more shots when they are not. Ranges from 40-315 yards.

Well, Jeff, the equation is pretty simple. You have several rifles that are optimal as an elk rifle, including 2 in .325.
You arguably have no rifles that are optimal as a long range deer rifle. Even if the medium bores were optimal, there is a gap in your arsenal on the small bore end, so simply as a matter of balance you need a 6.5 or a 7mm.
My arsenal is almost entirely between 6mm and 7mm. And I would shoot elk with any of them.
You may have a pronghorn or sheep hunt in your future, so you need something smaller. It aint right to shoot pronghorn with a .338. Just sayin...

Yup. Caliber matters not, nor does bullet weight or velocity or range to the target. With blue tape all is well..

At some point a real cheap and slutty tramp of a .257 Bee is gonna wander into my life and I don't think I could put up much resistence to it's lascivious charms.

Well what the heck are you waitin' for, buddy?! Turn that Montana into a 7WSM and get on with load development and LR practicing!

You still have another .325 just in case everything goes awry, so there's no risk involved

That's a great summary and is about how I'm coming around to seeing it, too.

Heck, the cheapest route is to just use your 338 on deer and pronghorns (including little ones). That's what I do. Doesn't wreck 'em near as bad as you think, but they do get sick very quickly...






That said, I think there'd be very little risk in rebarreling to 7WSM. Heck, I'm on the look out for a turd of a 325 to do just that!

What kind of rifle is your other 325? If it's also a Montana, I say why not? Then again, it'd be a shame to potentially mess up a very nice gun!

Yeah! I'm gonna. Given the season and weather and so on there's no huge time crunch so I'm gonna be rational about it.... first is bobbing the .338 and making sure it still shoots. Chit... if not, if bobbing it kills the accuracy, then maybe the thing to do is rebarrel THAT rifle to a long-action 7mm and keep the Montana whole. But that's unlikely. It'll still shoot....

Pac Nor is usually pretty quick in the winter so as long as I get it to them in December I bet I get it back by February. My prime shooting time is March-June so that'll work.

My other .325 is a BLR so it's not really the same as a bolt gun. OTOH with a 200-TSX that's pure elk death in the timber, a lever action .325, and it's plenty accurate out to 400+ so...

I have them surrounded, as Bob put it so well the other day <g>.

It is obvious from this post tha McMurph is a highly evolved and intelligent individual..........

Well, I don't about all THAT ... grin... but he did put forth one heck of a summary/conclusion, and with my convoluted "reasoning" to draw from that's no small feat!

Gettin' the .338 bobbed next week. Moving forward. Woohoo!!

Thank gawd,jeff....you are tough!....I'm exhausted.......

Now that right there is funny I don't care who you are, that right there

Lol. Guilty as charged.

What I mean is, I'm going to bob the .338 first, shoot it, evaluate the result, then do what makes rational sense from there. If it still shoots and I like the balance ([bleep] is seriously snout-heavy now) then I move forward with rebarreling the Montana. If not, I'll keep the kimber intact as my elk primary, for which it ROCKS, and retube the .338 as a 7mm something. Which would be a whole exercise in mental masturbation in itself so let's root for the .338 still shooting <g>!

If I did end up retubing the .338 I'd just have to go
Mashburn. All the cool kids are doing it........

Going Mashburn, now you are really coming around...<g>

Come on cut that thing and get it over with. You'll be getting subliminal messages nightly till you do...grin

Dober

I do not care for a barrel heavy rifle as a general purpose/hunting rifle. I wqant a well ballanced rifle

I don't mind a little bit front-heavy but only a little.

My .338 shoots so good that I've tried like heck to love it as-is, but it just ain't working. Putting my 22" 30-06 into the .338's stock last night was a revelation. It felt much, much better.

I prefer short tubes. When I rebarreled my '06 I went 22", and chose 20" on my .358. I ended up with a 26" .338 because that's all Rem offered, and then the damn thing was so eager to please I've been scared to mess with it. But no more. That last 3" of barrel is going DOWN.

Jeff, my .338 WM is built on a Remington-made '03 action with a 23" Douglas premium barrel. It balances just right! I think that you will like the barrel minus three inches.

In the early 1960s Les Bowman decreed that the 7mm Rem Mag was about as good an elk rifle as a person could get. Thats credible as far as I'm concerned.

There are more powerful rifles available today but elk are the same and so is the 7 Rem Mag. To me elk and the 7RM go together like bacon and eggs. No need for anything bigger but if a guy wants to go bigger theres no reason not to.

I've shot them with every thing from a .270 to a .358STA and still have the opinion that it is more important where you hit them than with what you hit them. I have guided/outfitted here in CO for 32 years and have got to be in on shooting a few elk. My advice to clients has always been bring what you shoot white tails with, but I prefer a 7-08 as a minimum. A magnum is fine, if a man is accustomed to shooting one and can handle the recoil. I don't think there is any real advantage to a magnum until you start getting out past 400 yards. I've seen several elk taken with little guns, like the .243, and they worked just fine as long as the shot was broad side into the boiler room, no shoulder shots with the little ones. There is way too much macho internet BS about "needing" magnums to kill elk. That said, I am a real fan of the 7 mag as a great rounder for everything from prairie dogs to elk.

I always wonder where is the spot on the elk that the 7MM won�t work but a 338 will work?

Elk shot in the chest with the 7s die quickly and elk shot in the guts with the 338 need another shot.

I just got back from 9 days with the Milligan Brand crowd and we killed 4 elk with 5 shots from 270yds to 670yds. Hits in the vitals kill the bulls and less recoil is a good thing.

The idea of using the biggest cartridge you shoot well is a little misguided in my opinion. Use the minimum that will kill the bull with the shots you will take and you will shoot better and be way more effective.

Seems to me that if you shoot a bigger cartridge well (as opposed to not-so-well or even poorly), you gain very little if anything by dropping down to the minimum cartridge that will do the job �for the shots you take�. If things go wrong, as sometimes happens, a bigger cartridge with a heavier bullet might buy you extra penetration when it is needed.

Cheap insurance in my mind. Guess it comes down to what you mean by "shoot well" - doesn't sound like the same definition I have.

I would prefer the .325 if I were hunting where bear might be involved, or just in general on elk but that's just me. I wouldn't trust any 7mm on a big bruin, but I've known plenty of hunters who have taken a lot of elk with .270 or less powerful rifles.

I agree, put the bullet in the heart or lungs and it is a done deal.

I don't know of any cartridge that makes up for bad bullet placement

Well, you would have to shoot a lot of elk to be able to tell the difference. As for the Ballistic tables and programs. Well those are all math guesses. Till you shoot your rifle and loads at those extended ranges you will not know for sure. They are nothing more than a guide to what you might expect. Shoot what you want and build what you want. I when back to the 7mm Remington Mag some years back due to the fact it was the barrel on the Blaser I wanted. Before that my second center fire rifle I bought with my own money was a Remington 700 BDL in 1969. Shot it well and killed some good game with it then I when on a 36 year chase for the purple dragon. And well I ended up back were I pretty much started. If common sense had anything to do with this sport, I would be shooting a 30-06 and a fix 4x and that would be that. But were would the fun be in that? We mess with rifles and endless cartridges and loads because we enjoy it. Besides it would be a very boring way to go thru life.

The minimum cartridge that will do the job �for the shots you take�, or at least most of the shots I have taken on elk would be my .22-250 if it were legal in this state. Thanks, but no thanks. I much prefer my 7mm RM with 160 grains or one of my .30�s with 165-180 grain bullets. Since I shoot all of them well (or at least well enough to pop a clay pigeon at 600 with the .300 WM the last trip to the range before elk season), I see no advantage to going smaller. I�m even cautious with my .257 Roberts and 120g A-Frames.

In all the years I�ve been hunting I�ve only had one animal move as I shot, and in that instance I was very glad I had a bullet (140g North Fork) that could penetrate the length of a mule deer, as it needed to do to reach the vitals. A lighter (or more fragile) bullet might very well have resulted in a wounded and lost animal.

I am not suggesting you need a .375 RUM for elk, just that I think there is a reasonable place between the minimum that will do the job under normal circumstances and the maximums. Placement comes first, as always, but placement is not always as intended and heavier bullets can sometimes do what lighter bullets cannot when it comes to penetration.

Yea, I went up the scale to a 340 B because of Ross Seyfried and Hagel; I even had a 375 Mashburn for awhile which hit as hard as the B but wasn't quite as flat. My limited elk number--eleven--were all taken with the big "B" with the exception of one with an '06 and one with a 45-70 so my perspective is very narrow. That said, it seems Ive taken proportionately more at long range as four were over the quarter mile mark--the 340 B slams 'em there.

But my next elk jaunt, Lord-willing, will be with a 6.5 lb 284.

Don't worry Jeff O, be happy.

Coyotehunter,

I never qualified my statement �for the shots you take� with the word �most�, that was your mistake to try and make a point.

I would never choose a cartridge that was adequate for �most of the shots� and I never said as much.

I understand you have a burr under your saddle regarding me but try and stick to what I say as opposed to what you wish I said.

I can�t imagine a bad shot on an animal being fixed with more penetration. There has to be vitals at the end of the penetration to make it work.

Pick the lightest recoiling cartridge/bullet combination that will always get to the vitals with the shots you will take and you will be the most effective.

I also imagine we have a different opinion of �shoot well�. Seeing as I get down to Loveland quite often we could meet at the range and compare our definitions of �shoot well�??

Do quarterback ever throw a little low, high,left,right of there target? Do hockey players score every time when they shoot? Do baseball players always get a home run? And these are pro's they do it everyday.You can talk about heart and lung shot and any decend caliber will do the job if put in those organs but we all as hunters have at one time or another missed on spot. Johnburns- I don't want to start a pissing contest but I personally feel (just my opinion only my opinion)that with a heavier bullet at a higher speed may at times help out maybe not all the time but I feel it could at times only if you are comfortable and shoot the bigger gun as well as the smaller.

Still here G&G? I would of taken you more for a fisherman.

I think there is merit...and a strong case for shooting elk with larger calibers.

To answer this question from John Burns:



I have a couple photos suggesting that "the biggest cartridge you shoot well" is not misguided. I was glad I was packing the 338 this day...shot through the frozen lodgepole, broke the on shoulder on a slight quartering toward angle. Found the 250 grain bullet just under the hide on the offside after it broke 2 ribs.

Same results with "lighter recoiling minimum caliber"???

Just sayin'...

Buzzh,

I wouldn�t suggest shooting through trees to get to the vitals and I would not select a cartridge for killing elk based on tree penetration. Simple answer is to miss the tree and hit the elk and for me that is much easier with lower recoil.

At one time I carried the 338 Win with 225 XBTs at 3000fps. Now I use the 264 Win Mag with 140 VLDs and can kill elk in situations I would have never even thought about with the 338.

I am quicker in the brush and much more precise at distance with the 7s or the 264s and I can shoot around small trees and hit a sliver of an elk better. Shooting at slivers of elk in the timber can require just as much precision as shooting at long range.

The short answer is my choice of cartridges will not work if there are trees protecting the vitals but then I don�t shoot if there are trees protecting the vitals.

I would venture to guess more elk are wounded by brush deflection than Long range shooting. Too many variables in trying to shoot through brush instead of around brush that cannot be determined or controlled.

John,

I dont select elk calibers based on their ability to shoot through trees either...nor do I choose one based on the perfect situation. I dont live in the delusional world that all that ever happens is perfect shots under perfect conditions all the time either. I choose one to cover a wide variety of situations and circumstances...as I mainly, and routinely find a mixed bag of same while in the field.

Where I find elk on public land...there are trees, brush, snow, low light sitations, etc. etc. etc. etc. Also true is the fact that while hunting elk in such places...$hit does tend to happen once in a while. I'd find it hard to believe you've never inadvertantly hit a limb or shaved a tree when threading the needle. I dont walk on water like some others, but admit it would be nice.

Having the extry horse power cashed the check in this case where many others would have failed miserably.

You asked the question...I simply answered it.

And with a great answer too. I just want to know what bullet you had in the 338. Just out of curiousity. BSA.

250 grain partition...I still have the bullet in question.

I thought that be the one. Thanks, bsa.

I'd like to know what your load was? Talk about steping on the peddle

Buzzh,

My post may have come across a little more condescending than intended and if so that was not my intentions. My apologies.

The point of the post is that I choose a lower recoiling round and have been more effective going that route.

Jwp475,

The load was 79gr of RL-22. Don�t recommend it anymore but I did shoot a lot of them.

I told Ross about that load and he made me chrono it in front of him because he was suspicious that my chrono was reading fast. It is amazing how fast a dummy can make a bullet go by just adding more powder and not worrying about things like sticky bolt lift.

Hey.... who you calling a dummy?!

Thanks for the great discussion folks, I'm loving it.

Moving forward with my diabolical plan. The .338 goes in next week for a bob to 23". It will likely be my "elk primary" because I shoot it well and I am of the belief that IF a person shoots it well, a .338 is about model-perfect for elk. With the fine 225-NAB and it's .588 BC it actually does very well for me out to ~600 yards on steel. No flies on the .338 (!) and it'll make me happy to finally grow big enuff 'nads to dare to bob a very good barrel <grin>, and hopefully end up with a rifle I'll actually carry more.

However, i'm also of the belief that my Kimber will remain an effective elk rifle as a 7WSM, and with the bonus of more reach and less recoil than it has as a .325. And of course (and the main reason I'm doing this), it'll become one heck of a 'lope and mulie rifle too.

The year I got my raghorn bull the camp next to ours had a 6x6 on the meatpole- killed with a 7mag. My question about the 7mag was never "will it", but rather just trying to get my brain around what degradation, if any, I'd see stepping down from basically 8mag to 7mag...

Jeff,

I've helped track elk, deer and bears shot with 338 mags incorrectly. I've seen elk, deer and bears either drop or only crawl a few feet hit with 243's by kids.

The 7 mags are just a sexier version of the 3006. It'll do anything you ask it too.

Lol... just laughing because I have a kickass 30-06...

My '06 is like my gunsafe security blanket. I am willing to roll the dice a bit messing with other things, knowing I have a good '06 in the safe! But by the same token I'm always trying do "better" than '06.... hit harder, shoot flatter, drift in the wind less, etc.

Jeff, that's funny. Didn't you learn anything in Bobs post the other day. bsa.

I still like this one:

Bob has been to a few dances.

Pretty tough to top 160 Accubond at 3k+. Not saying it's needed but almost everything is cooler at 3000.

Yeah, when I send off my Kkmber your direction (to Pac-Nor), I'm going to have to compare ogives and scratch my head a bit as to throating between the 160-NAB and the 162-AMAX. Hopefully throating for the Accubond won't be in any way a negative for the Amax.

I'm all shot out of AMAXs right now or I'd throw up comparisions. My 7 RemMag and 7 Shamwow don't let me kiss lands with either bullet loaded in the magizines. So it's no big deal. The Amax is a very accurate bullet in both the above and the 280.

I don't know how a person quantifies that....at least from a standpoint you can measure,and I mean terminally,(not wind drift,trajectory, etc),in terms of effect on animals because emperically we know,through our own experiences and those of others,that both "kill",effectively, humanely.

In our minds we all want the animal down and dead as completely and quickly as possible so we look very hard for a combination that does this all the time,but we find after awhile that there is no combination that does it consistently, thoroughly,and abruptly every single time.

This is because we look for things that throw animals to the ground, swats them,like a club,and that is not what a rifle does,although we see it happen at times......JOC once wrote that a rifle is a tool designed to administer a surgical function at a distance....following that line of thought, a bullet becomes a scalpel,not a battering ram....

..bullet weight, diameter,striking velocity,placement and construction all affect the size of the wound and the rifle allows us to "do the surgery"where it does the most good.Large calibers throw bigger scalpals,in theory creating larger wound channels, but the thing to focus on, in my mind anyway,is not what "advantage"the bullet has in weight and frontal area as it flies toward an animal(although this is important in getting on target),but rather what advantage in weight and frontal area does it hold after it hits, how does it behave,and what kind of wound does it inflict(?)

A perfect example is what JB posted on another thread on Elmer Keith,and his use of lousy,heavy bullets from a 333 OKH in Africa,on animals he'd have killed well and cleanly with a 30/06 and 180 Partitions.Elmer spent a lot of time chasing animals because the big bullets broke up without doing enough damage in the right place...to Elmer the answer was "bigger bullets" because African animals are "tough"...is that lethal effect(or a lack of it)that we can "measure"?

I dunno....

BuzzH-
Well said, I to have been fighting this exact battle.



Originally Posted By: BuzzH
John,

Where I find elk on public land...there are trees, brush, snow, low light sitations, etc. etc. etc. etc. Also true is the fact that while hunting elk in such places...$hit does tend to happen once in a while. I'd find it hard to believe you've never inadvertantly hit a limb or shaved a tree when threading the needle. I dont walk on water like some others.

Having the extry horse power cashed the check in this case where many others would have failed miserably.

You asked the question...I simply answered it.

John �

You won�t find the word �most� anywhere in my original response to your post.

In my response to jwp475 what I said was �The minimum cartridge that will do the job �for the shots you take�, or at least most of the shots I have taken on elk would be my .22-250 if it were legal in this state. Thanks, but no thanks.�

Your claim was:


In other words, for *** most of the shots I have taken on elk ***, my .22-250 would have been preferable to my 7mm RM or other, larger cartridges per your reasoning. Would I really have been �way more effective� if I had shot a .22-250 instead of my 7mm RM, .30-06s, .300WM or .45-70 for those shots? In a word, �No�.

Additional penetration may or may not fix a bad shot. Clearly, shooting an animal in the hoof with a .378 WBY isn�t going to have the desired effect. A couple years back I had a quartering away shot go bad when the buck moved as the trigger broke and I was thankful not only for the penetration my 7mm RM provided but also for the organ destroying energy the 140g North Fork retained when it reached the vitals. A lighter bullet from a smaller cartridge may or may not have reached the vitals, something we can never know. One thing we do know is a smaller cartridge would not have performed any better, no matter how well I could shoot it. I�ll bet on the side of caution, you are welcome to do otherwise.

I stuck to what you said and qualified my response to jwp475 only with regards to the shots I have personally taken. I don�t �have a burr under your [my] saddle� regarding you but both you and John Barsness do seem to have pretty thin skin when someone disagrees with you.

And yes, if you can get to my range (east of Kiowa), I�d love to shoot with you. Further, I have no doubt you can shoot better than I can.

Coyote hunter,

My point is simply that bad shots from big guns will require another shot. There really is no insurance factor from the larger calibers (above 7mm Mag) that will make any appreciable difference, in my opinion. You may or may not agree.

The bigger guns are more difficult to shoot and therefore a hunter is more likely to have a bad shot. You may or may not agree.

By reducing the recoil a hunter will be able to take and make shots not possible with the hard recoiling cartridges. Most of us can shoot the big guns well enough for most of the shots taken but my point is to use precision to make the tough shots not power to make up for a bad shot.

When choosing a cartridge/bullet combination I would recommend picking precision over power.

I can't wait to try it! I tried the 75-gn in my 1:9 .223 and got NO love, but that's probably twist or just an anomoly.

I should be able to spec "kissing lands" at an overall length that fits my magazine. I'll just send them a dummy round. The big bummer would be if the ogives of the two bullets (160-NAB and 162-AMAX) were in a really different place. Well, there's time to
suss that one out..,

Jeff,

You do understand the AMAX will open faster and penetrate less bone than a VLD??

I don�t think it will be a problem but AMAXs are simply cup and core with the addition of the plastic tip that initiates expansion on contact.

Not saying there is anything wrong with the AMAX but you seemed concerned about using the VLDs on elk.

+1 ...Ive seen a boat load of hunters miss using "big magnum's" over the yrs from the recoil alone. 25yr experienced outfitter in Alberta told me last year,...'I'd rather my hunter's bring a 7-08 rather than a 300win mag because I have seen lot less misses with lighter recoil rifles.

We've all read that in the gun rags, that's why the 30-06 is so popular.

+2 That was the point I was trying to make earlier, and why I recommended to my clients to use their whitetail deer rifles. I used muzzle brakes on most of my larger magnums so I could shoot more accurately. I'm just not real big on recoil.

muzzle brakes SUCK

Another good post Bob! Flingin' scalpels... I like that.

You know though, I do feel like that in my .358 I have a rifle that truly does hammer our relatively small deer down in a way I haven't seen other cartridges provide in the same way. Plus, the "big" scalpel is typically moving slower than the small, fast scalpel. Velocity kills- but it does it by really tearing up meat, or at least the potential for that seems greater. A big chunk of bullet, in this case a .35, at 2500 fps is both very... authoritative while not costing you a half a deer if you shoot through shoulders <g>.

Whether a cartridge that has similar effect on a bull elk while still having tolerable recoil even exists, I have no idea. I think those of us carrying .338's and .325's and so on, would like to THINK our rifles are like that.

I have no qualms with my 338 wm. It puts the elk down with authority and is very manageable.

Thanks, yeah I know that. Rogue and I are are kind of wandering off-topic here. I'm interested in the Amax as a target and LR deer bullet. Not for elk (for me anyway). I'll likely run the 160-gn Accubond for that.

Or my .338 <grin>...

That's been my hunting buddy Jerry's experience on a few elk. One shot, DRT, exit wound.

I love my .338. I'm as excited to get it into "woods trim" as I am about retubing the Kimber!

Well, one should simply realize quickly at the shooting range weather their rifle is to much gun for them to shoot accurately at 200 or 300 yards. It that is the case, you simply go down the ladder in caliber. I myself could not handle the .338 Win mag when I tipped the scales at 146.5 or 157-lbs. It took 20 years for my bones to add the additonal poundage needed to cope with added recoil of the .338 Win mag.

Now at 215 to 235 I have had no problem negotiating recoil of my .338's in mag & Ultra mag caliber. If I did, I would drop back down to the 7mm magnum which will put down big elk just as well as the .338 caliber does, just that the animal never shows as much information about being hit as with the .338 or .375H&H etc. The .338 caliber is my go to elk caliber in a model 70 Winchester.

My wife does very well with her 7mm mag (model 70 Winchester) and is now able to shoot the 175 grn bullets without any pain or problems. She used he Nosler 160 grn Partitions in years passed with excellent results on deer and elk. Also have the .338/06 for her but she has adopted a fondness of that stainless 7mm mag with the Mag N Port barrel.

Tonk: Good post!

Jeff: You can fling deer around with anything....they are just no hard to kill....elk are hard to fling around with anything....some guys even use 375's....not a thing in the world wrong with that.

If I lived in Washington or Oreegun,hunted those Roosevelts in the jungle,or Afognak with the brown bears,I'd skip all the small stuff and shoot a 375

And if someone shows up with a 375 AI or a 338 RUM, or a 300 Weatherby,I say more power to them....just don't tell me they are required or make up for lousy shooting,because they don't....

But we can't convince G&G, the both of them,of that....elk are large enough that if you hit them wrong with anything,you have a problem....they are in that class of game that requires precision, because you do not overwhelm them with horsepower and sloppy hits....

As for shooting throgh trees and killing elk,well as the man said, shidt happens.....and we are all entitled to get lucky now and then.

I would never argue against precision, but it's a simple statement of fact that elk vitals are a beeeg target. Bears remembering, as we split the RCH's finer and finer here.

BTW- I am saying, I have seen .358 be markedly "best", for how/what/where I hunt... over a half-dozen catridges. So deer may be easy to kill, but there's other considerations too. Blood trail. Meat loss. Do you give up shot angles. Etc. On balance I like .358 best. And that ain't never not a good thing, never not! (Big Stick is on the prowl, lol)...

Lil Fish is on the run

John the truck looks good with all those elk in it....

Bob,

Thanks it was a close call as we were hunting Ray�s Colorado ground and it had been hammered. No snow and no elk movement.

I bet Ray was down 50 bulls from normal year and when the snow hits those guys are gonna have fun.

We ended up killing 4 out of 6 guys but I am used to 100% at Milligans.

3 VLDs through the shoulders from 270yds to 670yds and one through the ribs at 400yds.

Pete shot his bull twice because it let him but both Ray's and my bull put their nose in the dirt so fast all I saw was legs in the air after the shot.

Ray also killed a great old mulie at 750yds and it dropped to the shot. All in all a really good trip with good guys.

I like that one. Keep him that way John. I've got the sorry sob on ignore. I agree with Bob, looks like you had fun hunting those elk, bsa.

Yes, they do, but they do work to reduce recoil. That said I am contemplating some work in AK and a Kimber Montana in .338 for the job. I once had a .458 Winny I had thought to bring up there and used it without a brake, so the .338 will feel much more comfortable in comparison.

It's all in the stock with those heavy kickers.

My Sendero II kicks harder than it seems like it should oughta.

I agree the stock has a big effect on felt recoil. The straight comb classic type stocks seem to work best for me. I'm surprised that Sendero would feel like it kicks hard. The last one I looked at seemed to have plenty of heft and a good stock design. Jeff O what is it chambered in? Maybe it does kick hard.

300 win mag. It's pretty sharp.

It's notable because it's a much heavier rifle than anything else I have, so I'd have expected it to be pretty tame..

John did you use the 264? What were the others shooting for calibers?

Because it's a 300 magonumb

Bob,

I was shooting that 264 you shot. One shot through the shoulder at 670yds and all I saw when the gun came back was legs in air.

Ray, Craig, and Pete were all shooting 7s and the 180 VLD.

John �

With that clarification (�no insurance factor from the larger calibers (above 7mm Mag�), it seems we are pretty much in agreement.

There comes a point when additional precision or additional power buy you nothing useful. As with most things in life, I think a balance between the extremes is ***generally*** a better place to be. That opinion is absolutely colored by the fact I�ve seen more elk wounded and lost with a .243 Win than possibly all other cartridges put together, even with hits I thought looked good. (Probably a factor in why I�ve never chosen to own one.)

Because it's a 300 magonumb [/quote


I wonder how much harder a 300 shooting 180s kicks tha a 7mm shooting 180 vlds????

Jeff �

The 7mm RM was my only legal (Colorado) big game bolt gun from 1982 to 2004. My mentor and most in camp back in those days used 7mm RMs, as has my hunting buddy since he got started in the late �90�s. My mentor recommended a 162g Hornady BTSP but after my first elk I switched to 160g Grand Slams and used them exclusively until 2004, as did my hunting buddy from the time he got started until he switched to 160g Trophy Bonded around 2005.

What�s not to like about the 7mm RM? Recoil with a 160g bullet is about the same as many factory .30-06/180g loads but it shoots a bit flatter. The only elk we ever �lost� was one my buddy shot in the neck (against my recommendation) and we didn�t find it until the next morning. Most elk have fallen straight down or taken no more than a couple steps. I�ve had two that went about 40 yards, if that, and no others made it anywhere near that far.

Logcutter likes to call it the �7mm �Hit �em again� Remington Mag�. (He prefers the 270 Win with a 130g bullet or a .300WM.) We�ve have had fun arguing back and forth, but the truth is you do your job and the 7m RM (or the .270 Win or .300WM) will do what you want without beating you up. The 7mm RM wouldn�t be my first choice for extreme ranges (for me that is over 500-600 yards), but for every elk I�ve ever shot it has been more than �enough gun�.

I would say that my .300 Win mag using 180 grain bullets goes out the barrel end at 3130fps.

My 7mm mag shooting 175 grain bullets does 2950fps. Now both are model 70 Winchesters with pre-64 actions and 26 inch barrels. I would guess that there is about 4 to 5 pounds difference in "felt recoil" ok. Now that is enough for most hunters to realize after the trigger has been pulled. I just went to the recoil calculator and put in the numbers on the .300 Win mag 180 grn bullet verses the 7mm Rem. mag and it's 175 grn. bullet. Results are below: 300 Win mag = 36 pounds of felt recoil and the 7mm Rem. mag has 26 pounds of felt recoil to the shooter!!!
Evidently my guess was off by some 4-lbs, so there is a difference of 8 pounds of Felt Recoil between the too and that is very significant for most shooters, especially at longer ranges.

It could make a difference in downrange accuracy to some shooters and if the .300 Win mag is to much drop on down, no disgrace there and they both kill elk very well. I also want to say, that with that .338 Win mag and 250 grain bullet, any shot I wanted to take, I knew that .338 bullet would drive straight on into the vitals even if it was by way of a Texas Heart Shot.

Now what I myself have noticed over the years, is that when using the .338 Win mag with a 225 or 250 grain bullet, the elk that received that bullet seemed to show more body language and movement verses the other two calibers or calibers such as the 30-06 or the .270 Win.

Are those chronographed bullet speeds? They are both around 150fps faster than what my Hornady manual says to expect from the fastest load for each of those bullet weights. My manual shows the 7mm reaching max with around 68 gr. of powder, and the .300 with 81. Looking at Nosler, Hornady, and Berger BC's, one needs to go with bullets in the 200-210 grain weights in the .300 to get a similar BC to the 175-180 gr 7mm bullet. Let's use the Nosler Partition for an example. The 175 gr 7mm has a BC of .519 and an SD of .310, and the 30 cal. shows .481 and an SD of .301 for the 200 grain bullet. My manual says 2800fps as the top speed for the 7mm, and 2962fps top speed for the .300. The .300, in this example is launching a bullet with a slightly lower BC and SD 162fps faster, but the bullet weighs 15 grains more, and we are using 16 more grains of powder to do it. The biggest difference I see here is going to be the heavier recoil of the .300. I see no advantage to that. Now, I have used a couple of different iterations of .300 magnums since '92 and was a real fan of all that power, until I really studied the ballistic picture. To me, the 7 mag has an advantage in that I believe it does the same job with less recoil. I used a .358 STA for a few years and shot a few elk with it using 250 grain bullets at a chronographed 2800fps. I can't say that it killed elk any quicker or deader than my '06 and 180 grain bullets, or my 7mm's with 160 grain bullets ever did. I killed a bunch of elk with a .300 Jarrett and 200 grain bullets, but again, no more effective than the old '06. For elk, I have to agree with JohnBurns that I feel the 7RM is hard to beat, and though I haven't owned one yet, I believe that .264 has to be a real killer as well. And the .270 I have started using this year seems, on paper, to be right on the heels of these two so for now, I'm sticking with it.

Recoil is a funny thing in that there's a quantity componant and a quality componant. In terms of quantity the .338 WM probably kicks "more" than a 300WM, but qualitatively I feel .338 as a big friendly shove while my 300 WM is much sharper.

My .338 and 300 WM are such different rifles that the above is just a hypothesis; I've fired several .338's but only the one .300. It does seem that others have noticed the same thing.

I like hearing that 7-mag recoil is about like a 30-06. I can shoot 30-06 indefinitly.

For what it's worth, my manual shows top speed from an '06, using 180 gr. bullets as 2798fps, using 10 grains less powder weight. This suggests to me that recoil should be nearly identical, which my experience with both rounds would agree with.

I was looking at Chuck Hawks recoil chart and found this very interesting.His test show about 4lbs differnce in a 7 mag and a 300 mag but the 7mm is a half pound heavier.
The point I was trying to make is there is not that much difference in felt recoil between the 2, if your shooting comparitive weight bullets.
Seems like a lot of people think the 300s kick more than the 7 mags, maybe a little but if your shooting at elk, who is going to notice.
I have nothing against the 7 mag, killed my first elk with one. I have grown fond of the 300 win mag and 338 win mag for elk though given the advantages of heavier bullts.



Rifle Recoil Table
By Chuck Hawks



Cartridge (Wb@MV) Rifle Weight Recoil energy Recoil velocity
7mm Rem. Mag. (175 at 2870) 9.0 21.7 12.5
300 Win. Mag. (180 at 2960) 8.5 25.9 14.0

I find it humorous that we are having an argument about cartridges when we should be having a discussion about bullets, and where the bullet impacts.

A good 90% of the animals that I've shot or seen shot with TSX bullets have gone into an immediate dirt nap. It doesn't matter if it came from a .25-06, a .280, 7RM, .338WM, .243, .308, etc. I usually shoot for the high shoulder, but I also use the "behind-the-shoulder, in the ribs" shot. A good majority of the animals that were killed with TSX bullets were hit in the high shoulder/lungs. Of the animals that were hit in the ribs, about 50% have gone straight down. I just shot a MD buck with a .25-06 and 100gr TTSX on Saturday through the ribs, and the buck did a bang-flop, then got to his feet, stumbled 10 yards, his legs buckled, and he hit the ground for good. The ENTRY hole in the ribcage was about 2", and the exit about 1/2". Lungs were ruined. I also saw a few animals meet their end with Fusions, Horn BTSP, CL's, etc this season, and about half of the animals shot in the ribs dropped at the shot, and the rest ran 100 yards or less. Those that were hit in the shoulder/shouler blade went straight down. I've also noticed that the more animal the bullet plows through, whether before or after hitting vitals, the quicker the animals does a nose dive. I shot another deer on Saturday that was on the run, quartering away hard, at 290 yards when a 100gr TSX from the .25-06 hit it in front of the rear leg. The bullet penetrated the paunch, the heart, and I have yet to find an exit wound. The deer left a 5ft smear in the snow when it slid to a stop on its nose.

I know that you're excited about building your new 7WSM, Jeff, and it will work GREAT, I just have a hard time believing that your .358 puts deer down any faster than the 100gr TSX/TTSX outta my .25-06, since they can't drop much faster than "bang-flop"

Just sayin' that the choice of bullet and where it hits are about 10x more important than cartridge choice.

Jorden, I wasnt arguing with anyone, I was just trying to show how close the 7mm and 300 are. If you can tell the difference in recoil when shooting at an animal I'd say your focus isnt on the target

I've used the big 7's and the big 30's a lot. When shooting at game nope one won't notice it. For me, during practice and I like to practice a lot that's when I notice the diff.

Laying on the ground, sitting etc and when shooting a fair amount of rounds at a setting most all will notice the diff. And it's my experience that habbits are learned and formed in practice not whilst shooting at game.

For the life of me I can't find a diff tween the two and how they kill game so for me I'll take the big 7's and how they do their work with less muss/fuss.

Dober

<< about 4 paragraphs of .358 gack deleted, grin>>

In the same way that you feel you've caught lightning in a bottle for your conditions with your 25/06, I feel I've done that with .358 here. If I were flying to Alberta for deer I doubt I'd even bring the .358. Likewise a 25-06 would be WAY down the list of cartridges you'll hear Oregon woods blacktail hunters talk about.

I am hoping that a 7WSM Montana will be an equally "perfect" open-country deer/lope rifle but I have no idea really and won't until I run it a while.

As JJ Hack said and I agree....



Jayco

My apologies. My comments were directed towards the conversation in general, not toward you personally. I agree with your comments. Have a great day.

Logcutter -
JJ may be right but in my experience i fail to see how "The 300 mag is a far more lethal cartridge then the 7mm mag" when I've had 100% success with the 7mm RM. (My one bad experience with a Barnes 160g XLC and an antelope can't be blamed on the cartridge.)


Reminds me, except in reverse context, of the short-lived Malt-o-Meal commercial from the 60's: "Tastes twice as good as that other tasteless stuff."

The .300 Win Mag is far more than 100% lethal?

CH

You and I have been over this many times and we will never agree,but as you said earlier,it was and is in fun.Your experiences with the 7MM is quite different than what I have seen, personally, with it.I guess we all have seen good calibers fail to do what we would think,especially if you read to much rather than getting out there and seeing in person.No offense to anyone.

JJ's experiences far surpass mine so even though I agree with what he said,others won't because the big 7 is there baby no matter what anyone else says...

Did you say shot placement?



Dang....

Jayco

Coyote Hunter, it really is not!!! However, my .338 win mag does give me a positive view of hitting the elk with my bullet spoken through it's body language verses the .300 win mag, 7mm mag and the 30-06.

The .338 Win mag with a heavy bullet like the 225 or 250 grain will let a hunter take a shot from almost any angle, letting that bullet drive all the way into and through the vitals. I can not say that about the 7mm mag or the 300 Win mag using a 180 grain bullet. I also use premium bullets, as that makes a heck of a difference on elk further down range, a very cheap insurance policy and what is an extra 6 bits for a bullet verses your expenses and tags to get there to hunt.

I also said bullet selection. It matters.

Same thing, (no blood trail) even with 375's etc, if the bullets do not exit and some times even when they do exit. If a 30 caliber is sufficient then so is a 7mm

So...Your experience exceeds JJ's???Wow...Same ole same ole..No one here listens to those with Way/Way more experience than they have...The 7MM is equal to a 375 H&H now.Never would have thought...

I am selling all my rifles and buying another 30-30 and HUNT...At least,it's .308 caliber!!!

Jayco

I thought this was about blood trails. I know that exit holes bleed more than entrance holes/ I have also seen poor bullets not exit all the way up to and including 375 H&H.

What the hell is wrong with you?

Me..I was quoting JJ Hack and the question was "7mm mag on elk vs. heavier calibers"..Not blood trails...Read all the post.I was playing with Coyote Hunter when I posted that.

Tough talk just flat ass'd scares the chit out of me...Take it easy on a new guy on the net, big guy.

Jayco

Your quote from JJ was about shooting a Zebra and having no blood trail. I responded about the blood trail, noting that if bullets didn't exit that made it difficult to impossible to have a blood trail. Even with an exit sometimes blood trails are faint to non existent I'm sure that you have experienced the same

It's a little crazy to get all huffy puffy over a thread about a 7MM versus a larger caliber.Like I said earlier and Coyote Hunter brought it up.Coyote Hunter and I went 23 pages on the 7MM versus the 270 Win on another forum..All in fun with alot of experience/data and facts.We were friends before and friends after..Just two hunters horsing around.

Anyone who takes some of this chit serious,needs help,big time but it seems it is serious to many,which I do not understand.

I know what works for me and everyone else knows what works for them regardless of what big time writers say about it.

If it ain't broke..Don't fix it.

Jayco

There is no problem with us. Just splainin the turn of events

Naw fellows! The wife loves her 270 winchester featherweight and her 7mm mag. I on the other hand would not pick up a 270 unless to shoot whitetail deer and can take or leave the 7mm mag ok.

However, the .338 Win mag is the real deal elk caliber of all calibers simply put because it lacks nothing getting the job done in spades. I do love that .338 caliber a bunch!!!

Let's not be talking tuff, as most just don't know what tuff really is in the first friggin place and the rest could not get out of a paper bag.............so please be nice gents.

My .30-30 is my only virgin at this point. Need to fix that...


[Edited to correct - Forgot about my Remington M700 .30-06, also a virgin.]

Hey.The 30-30 is a fine Elk rifle and has accounted for thousands of Elk.I have a good friend that uses his scoped(Marlin) 30-30 to punch Elk most years and hauls them out on his Honda 90 one quarter at a time.He owns two..I think my mistake when I got my two Winchester '94's was I didn't plan on going blind later in life and needing a scope.

CH-The way you shoot,you won't have a problem blooding that 30-30 if you set your mind to it.Not much different in range than the 45-70 you took a fine Bull with.

My 30-06 is a neglected child as well as the new to me .375 H&H I got from Jay T.I too need to hurry and bloody both of them or atleast thin out some gophers or blow up a Grouse or two.Hoping for a better year to get out next year.

Jayco

The more I bloody a rifle the more is seems to mean. I just can't trade away a rifle I've taken a lot of game with.

Shoot them both and find out instead of guessing.

Ive shot them both Bob and cant tell any difference!!!!

Ditto and well said.....300's provide no insurance factor .

I can....been shooting both for 30 years....

So does that make the 7mm better? all I said is cant tell any difference. Some like the 7 some like the 300. Get over it man!

Just for Bob from JJ Hack.



Howdy Bob..I could try and compare others experiences killing animals on this forum, to what Jim H(JJ) has done but that would be fruitless,wouldn't it?

I hope your not grumpy too, over the 7MM..

Jayco

We all go with what we've learned from our experiences is what I say. Take your pic and rock on with it, what one will do the other will do. I just hope that we're all out there on the hill having fun and getting it done.

Dober

couldnt agree more Dober!!!

Some people seem to get their panties all bunched up over stupid chit!!!

Except shoot 200/220 and larger grain bullets.I said that in fun and I also said earlier pretty much what you just said,and I agree.To many take this internet stuff, way to serious.Hell,I have seen more Elk shot with the .270 Winchester than any other round, but that's just me and where I have been and the crowd I hung around with.

Jayco

I'm not sure I've ever shot a 220 except in an 06 about 40 yrs ago, sure thought those Minnesota deer were tough buggers back then..grin

But, I've total confidence that a 175 out of a big 7 will penetrate every bit as much as a 200 out of a big 30. No doubt at all to me.

Can't say about the 220 thingy, if I've gonna use something like a 220 then I'd be all over my 375 H&H.

And I'm like you, seen more elk shot and gasp they even croak via a lowly 270 and mostly with 130 Sierra BT's, 150 Horns and 150 Nozlers.

Dober

This is such a laughable debate

Can you guys really tell the difference between a 300 win mag and 7mm mag both shooting 180 grain bullets?

I have owned both but not at the same time. I have never shot a 180 out of a 7mm mag.

My point being I guess is they are the same cartridge loaded with the same weight bullet. How can one kick less unless its loaded to a lower pressure?

Dink

Thats the point i was trying to make!!!!!!

There is some algebraic relationship to the area of the base of the bullet and it's recoil...

Never seen the great advantage of a 7 over a 30. If I really want to reach out and hammer something a 300 Rum with a 240 SMK is head and shoulders above a 7 . A 240 gran SMK at close to 3K packs a lot of momentum once it arrives, not to mention the .711 BC

I found it...it was discovered by Jethro Bodeen of the Beverly Hillbillies.

"Pi aren't square, everybody knows Pi are round, cornbread are square"

In the spirit of fun,Alaska F&G ran some penetration test years ago and the 30-05 220 grain RNSP out penetrated all of them except the 458 Win Mag and a 510 grain bullet.

The 7MM was just shy of the '06 and 180's with the 175 in the big 7 but when it came to heavier weight,the 220 grain out of the 30-06 ate 'em all but the 458 Win Mag.

Kinda blurry..



Jayco

Damn now thats funny........

Jethro Bodeen an esteemed alumni of Oxford, near Bugtussle

Get over "what"? You seem to be the one all in a huff......I responded to Dober.I wasn't talking to you anyway.If you don't like what I say,put me on ignore.Don't bother me.

Bob, didnt mean to hurt your feelings

If I was to venture a guess Bob's BT/DT with hunting and wildcat cartridges long before most of us.He's forgot more than most will ever know.

Let's make it real simple.....

A 175 gr 7mm NPT has a BC of .519.

A 200 gr 30 cal NPT has a BC of 481.

let's use a 7mm Mashburn and a 300 Weatherby to push both bullets at 3050.

Let's put them both in 8 pound rifles.

It takes 87 gr of H1000 to move the 200 gr bullet at that velocity in the Weatherby.

It takes 73 gr of H1000 to move the 175 gr 7mm bullet to the same velocity in the Mashburn.

In drop to 600 yards, they are about equal;the 7mm bullet wins by an inch.

In energy the 200 gr 30 wins by 500 ft pounds at the muzzle(not that it matters because energy proves nothing).By the time we get to 600 yards, the 7mm will close the gap.

The 30 cal wins for bullet weight and frontal area.

Both will tear a large enough hole in an elk's lungs to kill him and break shoulders etc.

The two bullets will penetrate about the same.If you don't beleive me,ask Dober, or Bob Hagel,or anyone who has used equivilent 7mm and 30 cal bullets on elk.I have only used the 200 gr 30 cal on elk,and the 160 7mm. They all exited from shoulder hits.


The powder charge gets added to the bullet weight/velocity/rifle weight equation in figuring recoil.Anyone who has fired these two loads,at the same velocities,in 8 pound rifles,will notice the recoil difference.If they don't ,they are not telling the truth.Generations of riflemen from JOC to Page to Hagel to Boddington will say the same thing.

The 300 Weatherby will recoil more.

The 7mm will recoil less.

To make recoil equal, you must increase the rifle weight of the 300.How much? I dunno but 9-9.5 pounds sounds right.If you want a 9 pound rifle at 9-10,000 feet,be my guest.

Which is a better elk cartridge? The one in the hands of the guy who can shoot it best(remember the recoil)

This is why Les Bowman invented the 7mmRem Mag.Guiding hundreds of elk hunters, he noticed he had more wounded elk with the 300 Weatherby than the 270 and 30/06 because most of the guys with the 300's could not shoot them well because they kicked too much.....

.....I know that does not apply to anyone posting here because they can shoot the 300's as well as they can shoot stuff that recoils less......

.No elk will walk away from a solid chest hit with either.If he does,he was not chest hit.If he is hit in the guts with either,you have a rodeo.

I'll spend the rest of my elk hunting career with a lightweight 270 Win.

Hey Bob,

Are you tellin' me that the Bodeen factor isn't real???

Bob I was not arguing the fact that a 300 weatherby would kick more. I know it does. I shoot/shot all the big .30's except the 30-378.

The question I was asking was if a 180 grain bullet will kick less in a 7mm rem mag than in a 300 win mag shooting a 180 grain bullet. Lets just say both are in identical rifles weighing 8 pounds.

I can't see where one would kick less than the other since both are the same case loaded with the same weight bullet. It seems to me that if one kicked more than the other that the 7mm would kick slightly more since your forcing the same amount of bullet and gas through a smaller diameter hole (this is a guess).

I know the 7mm will have a better BC.

Very well said there Bob!

next topic..

Dober

Dober, do you have any of those funny pictures of beating a dead horse?

Nope, sorry to say...ya think hunting season is over now wait till it's about March, then things will get really funky here..grin

Dober

Yeah I know. I've been reading for over a year now and just recently joined as you know. As for the dead horse, had something like this in mind:



I'm like you, I think Bob is getting worn out trying to explain things to people. Still love reading his posts though, bsa.

I was stuck in a monster 5 hour meeting today. Same thing, the ficken horse was pulp.

Good post Bob.

DINK: I was not really responding so much to you or singling you out,but just needed somewhere to start....

In the case of the 180 in the 7 mag and the 180 in the 300 winmag,I suspect the powder charge would be lighter in the 7RM than in the 300,at max charges for both,and the 180 7 mag load could not be pushed as fast as it could in the 300 so in equal rifles my guess is the 7 mag would kick a bit lighter...

Shrap: Of course it is!!!

The title of this thread is 7mm mag on elk vs. heavier calibers.Everyone wants to stop at the big 7 mag without hearing what other notoriety's have to say.JJ Hack doesn't buy the notion the 7 MM is equal to a .300 Magnum and neither does Craig Boddington.

From Craig...



Not saying the 7MM isn't a good cartridge,just saying it isn't the first and last word in Elk cartridges and there are other calibers that do it better according to JJ Hack and Craig Boddington.

Were all predisposed on our Elk cartridge is the best but there are other experienced opinions that get ignored regardless who it comes from.

Just a thought!

Jayco

I say "to each his own" the 7 mag guys are not going to convince the 300 guys the 7s better and the 300 guys are not going to convince the 7 mag guys the 300s better!!.
Aint a hell of a lot of difference between them!

How long is it till elk season again???

Yeah, I think I'll use my 7mm saum. It has some kind of magic to be able to kill elk with a meager 140 gr. accubond..

Brad
Just curious, after your season with the 308, why have you decided you'll use a 270 from now on?

Fred

A story that somehow applies to this discussion:

Many years ago a friend of mine here in Montana bought a 7mm Remington Magnum, mostly because every other guy he knew was doing the same thing. He handloaded 160-grain bullets, using a load from the only manual he owned. The load was supposed to get close to 3000 fps.

He hunted with the rifle and load for many years, taking not only a number of elk but lots of deer and black bear. It worked great on everything.

The he bought his first chronograph and found his magic load was actually getting just under 2700 fps, about what can be done with a 7x57 or 7mm-08.

These days he is a big fan of the 7mm-08 for elk, having seen 30-some taken with it, no problem. (The batch of elk taken with his "7mm-08 Remington Magnum" isn't included in the total.)

And now, back to our regular dancing on the head of a pin....

For what it is worth, I�ve tried Speer 130g, 150g and 170g flats as well as the Nosler 170g Partition RN. Decided I didn�t have much use for the 150�s. The 130�s make nice practice loads but require re-zeroing and I�ve quit loading them. The 170 Speer have been fairly and consistently accurate, the Noslers give me the odd flyer.

Enter the Hornady 160g FTX gummy tips. During load development these gave me sub-MOA groups at 100 (some approaching half that). The last two times I�ve taken the l30-30 to the range I fired one shot each time at 100. Different targets, but had I reused the first the two holes would have been touching. If you haven�t tried the gummy tips you might want to give them a spin.

I was �smart� enough not to have a .30-06 for a lot of years � didn�t feel I needed one with my 7mm RM.. In late 2006 my wife and I were in TX for 4 months for her leukemia treatments and I bought a used Ruger M77 in .30-06 for pig hunting. She got out of the hospital after the first month and that was the end of my free time � I never did get to go pig hunting. Four years later I�ve bought three more .30-06�s - a Savage for my son-in-law as a wedding gift and a Remington M700 and Ruger MKII stainless for myself. My last three elk were taken with the two Rugers. With a little luck the Remington will get broken in next fall. Have to say I was right though � with the 7mm RM I didn�t �need� a .30-06. Can�t pass up a good deal, though and I enjoy shooting them.

Exactly when did Boddington write that? Since he killed a nice Bull Elk with the 270 he now claims the 270 to be a good Elk cartridge as well he should since the 270 dropped the Bull faster than the bigger cartridges that he had used before.
Exactly what does "it numbs them" mean? I have shot Elk with the 30-06, 300 Win and Weatherby, 338 Win and I know from expereince that when the bullet are properly placed they kill the same. When the bullets are not properly placed bad things happen with all of them, so where is the real advantage?

I've been using a 7mm RM since 2004...a round I absolutely hated. My Dad won the thing with a $20 raffle ticket and gave it to me. I thought it would be a great antelope and deer rifle. I tried out some factory ammo, it shot right at 1"...worked up some handloads with 160 grain partitions tightened up to near .5" groups.

I used it on antelope and deer with great success, but was leary to put the 338 away when elk hunting. I decided to try it anyway and the elk have been hatin' it ever since...

MT bull 2004 130 yards, 40 yard run and down.



Two bulls in 2008 as well as a cow:
Wyoming bull 120 yards lung hit 20 yards and dead:



AZ bull hard quartering away shot between the last and second to last rib on up into the lungs/heart area, down on the spot:



Wyoming cow...instant drop to a shoulder shot:



2009 three more with the sub-par 7 RM:

WY bull 50 yards dropped on the spot:



MT bull 100 yards another instant kill:



Wyoming cow 230 yards 40 yard run and down:

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/buzzandpat/elkhunting/websize/09cow.jpg[/img]

Well John..You have shot Elk and so have many here but how many of us here,have the experience killing game and seeing game killed as Jim Hackiewicz or Craig Boddington?

They have both said,as I quoted,there is a difference in killing power from the 7mm mag to the .300 mags and larger and the title to this thread was......7mm mag on elk vs. heavier calibers.

Ill just leave it at that.Hey..I'm not against the big 7 in anyway.Just showing others opinions on the big 7 versus the .300 mags and up as asked by this topic and I just happen to agree,to a point.

Jayco

...more elk hatin' the 7mm

MT 2005 452 yards 30 yard stagger and down:



2010 WY bull...30 yards dropped on the spot with a quartering toward shot to the shoulder:



A few weeks later also WY...calf 130 yards lung shot...5 steps and game over:



Finally November 28, 2010 last day of the MT season, my 45th elk...382 yards instant drop.



I've nothing against the gun writers and gun cranks...but I think they spend too much time fretting over minutia and writing articles to satisfy editors, sponsors, and the fickle public. The primary 3 things elk hunters should worry about when hunting elk is shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement...followed distantly by selecting a decent bullet for their "elk" rifle.

The rest is just trivia...and a lot of work/fun.

I'll still pack my 338, but I've come to the conclusion that the 7 is a worthy elk rifle...YMMV.

Carry on...

Boddington claims that the 279 put the Bull down faster than any other cartidge that he has used and that is Boddington's own words as well. Those words contridict his previous words and that is the problem with picking pepper out of fly [bleep]

Great post and spot on!!!!!

Coyote Hunter.

I have never reloaded for the 30-30.I just grab a box or two of Remington 170 grain Corelokts on special and go hunting.There very accurate in my Winchesters and do a great job on game.

As for the '06 neither of us have had until recently because we both already had Elk slayers...I bought 100 Nosler Partitions(180 grain) for my '06 and haven't reloaded one yet.I didn't think I could hunt last year but at the last moment,I could, so I bought two boxes of Hornady 165 Interbonds at 3015 fps from a local here, and went hunting then chose to take the 45-70(420 cast) into the brush and left the '06 in the camper.Big mistake and lost Bull do to a cow semi behind it,so I passed.

I couldn't hunt this year either, so I am itching for next year and the '06 or 375.

Jayco

The 30/06 is a suitable elk round...the 7mm marginal?

Laffin'....

Jayco, you want to talk about what Boddinton has to say about Elk rifles OK let's do just that.

Here is a quote from Boddington
"It's worth noting that my longest shot on an elk (410 yards) and, excluding neck/spine shots, the fastest I have ever seen a bull elk go down was with a .270 Win. and a 150-grain Nosler Partition".



The whole article here:


Boddington On Elk Cartridges

Buzz-I love that AZ bull!

Dober

Okay John..Just once as I wanna go Stealhead fishing on either the Clearwater or Salmon both 15 miles or so away if I can get my son up..

From Boddington and your link..



Jayco

Your point about killng of Elk is? Boddington's point is/was that he is seeing the light, but can't make the leap away from the 35s/33s to the 270 in one step.

The whole article must be kept in context.
If a bullet from a 338 through the heart kills any faster than a 270 bullet in the same location, I dought. I would certainly like to see that one proved

IMO and IME the more elk people see taken with the smaller rounds (IE 270, 7, 06 etc) the more comfy they'll feel with using them.

Some I'm sure will jump all over about what I'm about to say but here goes...while JJ and CB have seen tons more game taken than most of us will ever dream of. I do feel that there are more than a few people around who've seen more elk taken than either of those two. My point being, I'll listen to those with the most experience with said subject and personally while I have total respect for the both of those fellas I don't feel that they're the ones with the most experience when it comes to killing elk.

Load em up and shoot em at me boys...<g>

Dober


(side note, look at how many elk John Burns see's taken each year and look at what his choice of rounds are)

I bet that one tasted horrible...

Don't forget JJ Hack aka Jim Hackiewicz saying this...

The 300 mag is a far more lethal cartridge then the 7mm mag. At this point in my career no matter who tries to convince me otherwise, I'm not buying!

Okay..Boddington is wrong and JJ Hack is wrong according to...I can live with that and don't care much what anyone else uses..Just adding something to the topic of 7mm mag on elk vs. heavier calibers from notable names with alot of experience compared to.



Jayco

I didn't see your post while I was typing..



BANG..

I think there are alot of people here who don't need to listen to anyone when it comes to Elk hunting..The guy that was with me on my very first Elk just got his 17th or so in a row at 85 years old.Packed in by horeback and sat down and told to stay put and there it came,again.I wish his brother-in laws would dog for me.

I think we all agree.I just took the side that wasn't being told about larger diameter calibers,right or wrong.

Jayco

Brad - You nasty boy; you bin cheatin' on your 30-06 and your 308. I thought you were all in love with your 308 Montana?

How many Elk has JJ taken? The Outfitter than I hunt Elk with has had more bad experiences with clients shooting 300 mags and prefers the 30-06 on Elk. Does this mean that the 30-06 is superior to the 300s. No it means that was HIS EXPERIENCE and that is all that it means


By the way Jayco, quote from Boddington "I think I've killed about 20 elk--one spike and the rest a mix of rag horns and huge bulls."

BuzzH has killed 45 Elk over twice as many as Boddington claims to have taken

Shot this one at 325yds with a 7rm and 160NABs at 3080fps MV avg:


The inferior 7mm slug just bounced off, but I was really lucky as it stunned him long enough for me to run down the mountain and slit his throat with a little swiss army knife

As usual, Bob is right.

Calculated ft.-lbs. of recoil is a factor of velocity, bullet weight, weight of powder charge, and rifle weight.

For felt recoil, you have to factor in the design of the stock, and probably some other, more subjective/psychological factors like muzzle blast, body position, adrenalin, etc.

No comment...... what can you say after Buzz's posts?

Jumping off the pinhead now......

150gr 7mm NPT from a STW.Can't ask for anything better.imo

... and to think that all this time I've been stupidly shootin' them with 308's and 30-06's, and they've been falling over, too.

I guess ignorance really is bliss.

This IS a fun thread! I agree with the quote of the outfitter saying he had seen more misses/bad shots with a .300... I agree because this has been my experience also. Blowing My Own Horn: for what it's worth, I've guided hunters here in CO for over 30 years, licensed outfitter for 9, killed 49 elk myself if my journals are correct, and been in on the taking of a few hundred more I would guess. Among my clients, and a good number of my local friends, I have seen way too many missed or poorly made shots with the bigger magnums than with the "standards". I believe this is because the big 'un's recoil so hard most guys that I have seen using them flinch in some way. The guys I have seen that can shoot one well have shot them a lot and are no longer intimidated by heavy recoil. IME Most Hunters Can't Shoot A Magnum As Well As Something With Less Recoil. And we all agree that a bad hit is a bad hit. I have always advocated premium bullets in the magnums because the vast majority of shots are within 200 yards, usually less, and the magnums will ruin half an elk if you shoot them in the shoulder with a frangible bullet. I like to eat them, not shoot them into burger. We can shoot what ever we want. I used a .358 STA for a few years because I Wanted To. Again, IME magnums, any of them, Are Not Required to reliably kill elk. And I am not all that impressed with them until you start to talk long range. IMO that is where the magnums really shine on elk. Out to 300+ yards on elk the standards work well, at 400 and beyond I like the magnums. You can talk worse case scenerio, but if it looks like a risky shot, don't take it! Most of the arguement about magnums is guys who thing they can shoot into the next county with one. What about the guy who thinks he can blast away at any marginal shot because this magnum can shoot through anything. Any way, it's grand that we live in a country where we have game, own guns, and get to have this lively conversation. Carry on.

Awe Geez,John..How do we compare people who can take recoil without flinching and those that cannot?Something both of us have done, is shoot big Bore pistols,seems we can do it accurately but a whole bunch can't.Nothing like a 525 grain bullet at 1300+ fps out of a 7.5" barrel or a 300 at over 2,000 fps..My favorite is a 425 grain at 1600 fps..Not bad at all.

The point being,some can do it and enjoy it and others can't nor want to.If you can shoot a bigger bore as accurately as a smaller,why not use it especially,if you enjoy it?

A 41 MAG(.410) caliber handgun doesn't hit as hard as a 44 Mag(.429).(.019 difference in diameter).Same difference AS 7mm(.284) and .300 Win Mag(.308).(.024 difference)..No or r they equal in thump.

Jayco(In fun only no cranks allowed)

I saw the same Boddington quote in his book " Fair Chase"...the New Mexico bull was killed in 1972 with his 270 and the 150 NP...

I'm pretty taken with the notion of BIG handguns, I just never have been able to master the recoil. I got half way proficient with a .44 shooting 325 gr hardcasts at 1300fps, but it took all my concentration. I guess I tend to be one of those guys in my own post, the one's who aren't really good with too much recoil.

They certainly do take a lot of concentration

Rifle recoil, at least to the extent I've taken it (.338, 45/70, .325 from a very light rifle) ain't no big thang to me; just doesn't bug me like it does some.

Handgun recoil is a whole other animal. I sold my 44 mag revolver; just couldn't get over the hump with that thing.

When some talk about JJ Hack and Craig Boddington and Boddingtons quote, he only shot 20 Elk or so back in '72 or something like that, forget all the other animals they have shot as big and bigger than a Rocky Mountain Elk.

Many say some of that African game is way tougher than an Elk.I don't have a clue.If so,what's the beef..Numbers are just that with a little bragging thrown in.

I suppose someone like Jim H has seen a ton of hunters shooting game and Craig has shot a ton of animals from A-Z..

Kinda weird to here people put 'em down only because they don't say what some want to here or they believe different.

Who are we to listen to if it ain't from the likes of Craig/Jim and John B, especially those just learning.How are they to sift through the post and pick out the BS compared too?

John B hasn't chimed in on the 7MM versus larger bore and effects but the other two have saying the .300's are a much better choice,in there vast experiences,if you can shoot it.

Jayco

1972 isn't right, thinking it was more like mid 90's or later wasn't it?

Dober

cobrad: Good post and well stated!

I don't think this thread was ever about what the "best" elk cartridge is....if going bigger makes an elk cartridge "better" we can logically conclude that an 8 pound 378 Weatherby is lkely at the top of the heap.....(but if we go there,some 300 mag fan will jump up and down and say the rifles are too heavy and the cartridge kicks too much.....sound familiar?)

The thread was about how the 7mm mag does when it comes to killing elk,and how it compares to heavier calibers....

Craig Boddington obviously has a lot of experience,but in having followed him for years, I have always found him to be something of a cartridge schizophrenic.....I have never seen a writer more capable of making subtle distinctions between essentially similar cartridges....I enjoy him but for years he was impossible to follow.

Besides, before him there were others of equal or more experience when it comes to elk,Les Bowman being the most noteworthy...he invented the 7 Rem Mag for one purpose.....to kill elk at long and uncertain range,to be fired in rifles portable enough to be lugged in rough country,and yet at a recoil level that most could handle.He saw too much lousy shooting and wounded elk from guys who "thought" they could handle the recoil from belted 30's,too....they turned out to be full of BS...it's still true today.

The cartridge was not invented in a corporate board room to bulk up rifle sales like the WSM's(which are nothing more than short fat standard belted mags). It was field tested by Bowman for about 4 years, Mike Walker from Remington, and Wayne Leek of Remington,at Bowman's ranch in the Bighorn Mountains of Wyoming.

The prototype rifle was used by Bowman and his clients to kill elk, moose, many grizzlies,black bear,antelope and mule deer as a wildcat before it saw the light of day as a factory round.Very few commercial cartridges have received that kind of "in the field" development prior to introduction so far as I know......

While this was going on,Warren Page and Bob Hagel were running around knocking off everything that walked with the 7mm Mashburn,Page doing it all over the globe..........and elk are crumbling every year to 270's.

So,how does it compare to heavier calibers?

What difference does it make? It does what it was designed to do....kill elk, near and far.

Bob
Am I remembering correctly when I recall that Jack O'Connor said that Bowman told him he thought the 150 grain bullets killed better than the factory 175 bullets?
A point to consider here is that when the 7 Remington Magnum hit the street, it was loaded to about the same velocities that the 7 Remington Ultra Magnum is loaded now-

Fred

Bob

Why is everyone picking on Boddington and leaving JJ Hack alone?They have the very same conclusions about the 7MM on Elk sized game.

Just curious.

Jayco

Dober...you are right it was February 2002 ..page 64 of B&C publication by Boddington...Fair Chase In North America....

Guess my mind was back in time to when JOC was killing elk with his 270!!

I am no expert on Elk since I have shot only 10 and have never used the 7 mags...all my Elk have been taken with the 270, 30-06 and 300 Wby...but from my limited experiences I see no reason the 7's would not be great for Elk ....especially since the 270 does an excellent job on Elk....

Thought it was a short while back, man do time fly though eh..?

And you're absolutely right, the big 7's are wonderful for elk, or at least that's been my experience..

Here's a Mashburn elk, oops pic didn't work give me a bit me and puters

Dober

Mashburn Bull from 2009

Dober

I spent some time with a friend of Jim Hackowitz..Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges a few months ago and he assured me that Jim was and is the real deal(because I asked), and to listen to what he has to say, coming from a man with vast experiences with his own ammo line.

And yes,my wife and I are invited back to stay at there extra cottage anytime.

Dang..Boddington and Jim can't both be wrong,can they?

jayco

06 bull from this fall, amazing these darn rat gunz kill elk..grin

Dober

Dober...that is a great bull.... I have never used any of the 7's but after visiting with Bob...I am seriously thinking about a Mashburn...

I just happen to know someone who has a reamer and a ton load of loading data so hop to it!

Dober

Mark I can sure see why good glass is at a premium in your locale!

Even over in Eastern Oregon where I hunt elk, barring clearcuts or fire, if you are on a ridge like that looking out, you pretty much just see treetops ... that said we do have areas like that and I'm gonna hunt them soon for deer mostly and that's where a nice light 7mag starts looking pretty good to me...

IMHO if I am going to deal with magnum muzzle blast and recoil I am going to go with a 300 Win mag over a 7mm Rem mag every time. And if I was going to deal with 7mm Mashburn, STW, Rum recoil and muzzle blast I would rather step up to a 300 ultra with a 200gr Accubond at 3200fps.
I have owned a 7mm Weatherby, a 7mm ultra and a 280 Remington and the 280 is the only one I kept.
I love magnums as much as anyone, but to be honest I am getting sick of dealing with them and anymore find myself grabbing my 25-06, 270, 0r 280 first.

Dober...they kill Moose too!!!

Let the chest thumping begin....

I can say straight out.I don't own a camera and never have except once when I was given a Kodak Easy Shot about 5 years ago and took it hunting, in a storm from hell,I lost it plus a '50s vintage Weaver K-4 and a pair of Simmons binoculars for a lowly Spike and with a 45-70.

I grew up hunting for food and lived until recently in a $2,000 double wide.I sell my antlers for money along with the ivory's.I have kept two..One..a Black Bear head that charged me and a 5-point bull rack that about killed me(I had a heart attack shortly after), to remind me when and where to shoot.

Elk hunting to me is for food,nothing else and if it cost me more than real lean raised beef,I won't hunt anymore because I can't afford it.

Tit's up to those of you that can afford all that stuff.

Jayco

But he did amd if one can read between the lines his postion is quite clear

John

His personal opinion or someone he knows?

Not that it even matters...So many here are putting down Boddington yet leave JJ alone,amazes me since they have the "exact" opinion on the 7MM versus the .300 Mags.

Are they both nuts or skitsofrantic's as one mentioned?Man..This is a clan,your either in or out.No other opinions welcome even if it is a Boddington or Hack quote.

Jayco

I think you are misrepresenting Boddingtons stance. He has changed it quite a bit over the years and I don't see it as an issue.

I remember JJ and JB going at it about the 7mm being inadequate and quite frankly I agree with JB on the subject and that is the 7mm is every bit up to the task as is any 30 caliber.

As JB so eloquently put it "And now, back to our regular dancing on the head of a pin...."

Yup..Running is always best rather than facts.If JB disagrees with JJ he also disagrees with Boddington, and I said, if.

So it appears it's 2 out of three agree.Then there is which ones have the most experience and all that stuff.

Geex John..You sure like to dish it out but never answered me if the 41 Mag was as hard a hitter as the 44 Mag.

Jayco

Jayco; I'm not picking on Craig B. I like him.But he has been all over the map if you have read him for years.He seems more consistent now than he used to be.

As to JJ Hack,he obviously is very experienced.But he shoots a 30/06....with premium 165's. Who doesn't?That's like a 7 Rem Mag. What is there to talk about?

I have mucho respect for JJHack. He is knowledgeable, experienced to say the least, and a nice guy.

BUT it bears remembering that much of what he passes along is info gleaned from hunting African animals under very different conditions and even with different rules (blood on ground= VERY EXPENSIVE cut tag)... so he puts a huge premium on exit wounds since they make tracking a hit animal in a herd of hundreds on a dusty plain easier... as well as a premium on putting an animal down ASAP.

This has been all I could hope for in a thread and I thank y'all very much. I'm gonna bob my .338 shorter and likely use it as my elk primary, cause I love that rifle and, well, .338 is an elk rifle and that's indisputable. BUT, I will still count my Kimber as a potent elk rifle once it's a 7WSM.

Back to listening.... thanks again guys....

I think you'd be better off worrying about leather or nylon boot laces.

Almost 300 replys.. I have to admit I didn't read any of them, other than the ones with eye-catching photos.

Oh Bob.

One of my very best friends on another forum is a Canadian Lawyer who went out of his way just to meet me.I enjoy the intellectual approach to things but he as you and I,put our pants on the same way.One leg at a time.Same with JJ/Boddington and Barsness....

Some are more experienced than others in there cases.Like it matters other than,had I not chimed in,the 7 MM would be the best of the best of Elk calibers...Maybe it is but I doubt it!!!

I am the only one to say and quote different from experienced writers and guides.

Should we not here both sides of the story friendly without bashing anyone even though this is a heavy 7MM forum?It would be sad if just the local hot rods ran things with there opinions without anyone questioning them,wouldn't it.

Just thinking..I always respect your opinion and others but why is mine and the ones I quoted, wrong?

Jayco

Jayco you aren't "wrong"! Conversations about perfect elk cartridges are kinda pointless.....you know what it takes to kill them....as well as anyone on here....better than most

Its their job...

Hard to sell mags with white pages...

At the end of the day, this stuff is all just a matter of opinion. Are JJHack and Boddington skitso's? No. They're just two men with opinions. Just like Buzz, Bob, Mark, you, me, and everyone else. Opinions are formed based on experiences, and many here have had positive experiences with the 7Mag, while others have had better experiences with heavier calibers.

Nobody is wrong. Everybody is voicing their opinion and that of other people. There is no correct answer to this discussion. The verdict will not be decided by a vote, as this would be as futile as taking a vote on whether or not gravity exists. Ask me and I'll tell you that gravity most certainly does affect all of us. Ask an astronaut and you might get a different answer, based on his experiences.

Everything in life is a learning experience,including hunting.You have to learn on your own and were all up to it if you want it bad enough.Even Me!!!

A short story..I was never on the net before my wife brought home a computer like 6 years ago.I had no clue and went to Marlin Talk since I just got a 45-70.It was a free for all and Marlin finally closed it and a good 'ole boy started Marlin Talk....Then everything went south with banning time after time because they also would not put up with the pooh talk...

But after a few friends were banned,I said BS and started my own forum,free at first then .com and learned how to, by the school of hard knocks.I wished I hadn't now but a man has to do it himself to understand what is going on...Believe me..I learned and still am and have to.

Same as hunting..No one can tell you how or what,use common sense and just go do it and learn.Listen and sift through it and ignore the chest thumping with 475 Elk in 40 years of hunting.Pay close attention to people like Ray Atkinson and Jim Hackowitz(SP) the guys that are just the real deal as well as others.

Just my thoughts.

Jayco

His stories are always so super-awesome and funny.

Greenie-happen to have any rat gun elk pics, say bulls taken with a 25/06 or 7/08...grin

And don't forget you're pissing up a rope if you scout..


Dober

How old are you Mark?

Just curious.

Jayco

He's gotta be approaching darn near 40 now, I'm sure of it

He wishes.... lol...

Bob Hagel...the real deal...

along with Art Mashburn...

Yo Mark...My name is Ron and I live in Elk City and Grangeville Idaho and will be 62 in February.

How old r u?

Jayco

That right there is funny.....

And your Elk hunting experience in Idaho and Montana is what compared to Ray?

I give up..First Ray is a nut job by this forums standards then Boddington doesn't know what he is talking about nor JJ Hack.

Guess I ought to move to Texas and learn how to hunt Elk and more importantly,respect my elders with more experience than I have.

Do you or any of you know it all about hunting Elk?I don't and am willing to learn new stuff I haven't seen.

Jayco

Uh-oh....laffin hard here..

IME I cna't tell much difference between the 2 in the field. Move up to a 45 Colt with modern loads at about 30,000 PSI and IMHO & E the 45 hits noticable harder, not sure that it kills any better.

Your cool in my mind,John..You don't run and hide when asked a question.

Jayco

Just got back to the house, turned 52 a couple of weeks ago- thx 4 being curious

Dober

Hey logcutter...how do you explain the elk I've killed with the 7 RM since 2004?

Luck?

Since you like questions...how many years of hunting and how many elk does a person have to kill to have any credible experience?

I'd rather be lucky than good...

How's the White in Wyo so far this year Buzz?

Dober

We have some snow...but I'm still in MT visiting friends and family in Missoula.

Go Catz....grin

Dober

you have changed your tune some Buzz...........seems like a few years back you were singing the praises of the .338 and said you were not impressed with a 7mag .


I don't know about killing power , but personally I think the recoil differences between the common magnums (7mm , .300 .338 )are overblown . They all kick and they all make alot of noise . I think rifle fit has more to do with shooter comfort than small differnces in bore size and bullet weight .

If any midbore so-called magnum can be said to be comfortable to shoot , for my money it would be the 300 WSM , when loaded with 4350- RL17 burning range powder .

Hey Buzz..I'm still trying to get over the wolf thing with you but I am trying...Here is a raffle for 'ya in my home town..How many tickets do you want?

Idaho sheriff denies rifle & shovel raffle targets wolves

In a region where the acronym SSS commonly means "Shoot, Shovel and Shut Up," Idaho County (ID) Sheriff Doug Giddings denies he is advocating the illegal killing of federally protected wolves with his charity ".308 SSS Wolf Pack Raffle." Giddings insists the name of the raffle for the .308 rifle and accompanying shovel instead is meant to imply "safety, security and survival." We can dig that. Via AP.

Woman faces 4 wolves on her rural N. Idaho driveway

A North Idaho woman was trudging up her long, snowed-in rural driveway at dusk Saturday when she thought she saw her two dogs coming to greet her. "Then I saw two more of them, and all four were walking toward me," said Karen Calisterio, 52. "That's when I said, 'Oh s**t, I'm alone and I�m in trouble.'" Spokane Spokesman-Review outdoors writer Rich Landers has Calisterio's complete report of the incident on his blog.

Buzz..Sorry,I couldn't help myself and my hat is off to you and your Elk.I never said myself,the 7MM wasn't an Elk cartridge.What I did say was in my experience the .300 Mag puts more of a zonk on them and I am a .270 Win guy from head to toe.A couple big names agree and some don't but proof is in the pudding..

Jayco

Not very familiar with Ray�s stuff, usually enjoy but often laugh at Boddington�s (a .270 doesn�t work for elk, for one) - but would love to go on all the hunts he goes on. Have a lot of respect for JJ - who I notice likes the Barnes bullets but I haven�t seen him tout the Bergers...



By �new stuff�, you mean like how effective a 7mm RM can be against elk?

logcutter,

I refuse to buy tickets from liars...if the good Sheriff was worth a $hit he wouldnt hide behind acronyms and grow a pair.

Safety, Security, and Survival...what a pansy. The sheriff is a bigger joke than his raffle and thats pretty impressive on more than a few levels.

That sheriff is a spineless jellyfish who isnt worthy of a badge...to say the least.

Oh, and if you havent used the 7mm RM...how do you know the 30's put more of a "zonk" on an elk?

I've used a 30 a fair bit...and they dont "zonk" elk any more or less than a 7...been there, done that with both.

Step up to the 338...things change.

What do 'ya really think Buzz..Don't hold back.Since I here your in Missoula,the closest major town to here,I bet the good sheriff would give you one of his discounted rooms if you pass that on to him and all for like $25 a night including meals ....So much for that!

As to the big 7 versus the .300.I have three friends in the McCall area that use the Remington Mag.I have been with them when they took Elk covering my ears as they shot..I wasn't impressed at all considering the hype the cartridge gets.In my experience from what i have seen,I just think the .300 puts more hurt on them, right now.Owe well,I am in the minority here on that, but so goes it.

Kidding aside..A thumbs up on the Elk you took with the big 7 and everyone else to..Like some say about the '06..This thread bores me now so I will be moving on.Until next time,Buzz...Adios

Jayco

Jayco,

I'm curious what bullets your friends were shooting their elk with?

Thanks
Jordan

Jordan

If memory serves me right,it was factory Remington core-lokts 150 grain,I think..None were reloaders..I know,maybe a bad comparison to my 180 grain and 200 grain Noslers but the Core-lokt has always been a good Elk round in other calibers including the wifes 8MM Mauser.

Jayco

Jayco,

Thanks for the report. The reason I ask is that with a high-velocity cartridge such as the 7mmRM, you may have been more impressed with something like a NP or TSX. The velocity window and construction of the 8mm CL is likely more suited to the Mauser than the 7mm CL is to the 7RM for large animals like elk and moose.

IME bullet construction makes a HUGE difference in the effectiveness of a given cartridge. I wonder if your observations would be different if your friends had been using a 160gr NP or 140gr TSX, or the like. Just a thought.

You guys were talking about recoil between two cartridges when bullet weights and speeds were similar...made me think, if I want to feel how much less a 7WSM kicks in a Montana, compared to the same rifle as a .325.... I could load up some 8mm 150-gn to about 3100+ fps and shoot it! I actually have some really old 150-gn 8mm Corelokts I bought as a partial box real cheap.

Don'tcha think?

I would think that would work. What's the recoil calculator think of it?

Jeff

I have been around and shot my wifes 8MM Mauser for some 23-24 years now and with 170 grain factory Remington Core Lokts at an almost anemic velocity compared to modern thinking and it does a heck of a job on Elk and Deer.I can only imagine your .325WSM or the 8MM Mag,would be much better.

If I had either of the two,I wouldn't change a thing.

Jayco

Do you think the 8x57 does such a good job because the bullets are placed properly?

Ofcourse..I could go way back and say how the 30-30/300 Savage/32 Special/35 Remington and the likes of the 30-40 Krag all have done a great job on Elk within there parameters with shot placement being the single most important part and the old factory bullets of old, like the Core Lokt,hammered them year after year,for the most part.

Times sure have changed!

Jayco

"Times sure have changed!"

You're right there! But elk haven't changed. I have one friend left that still uses a 30-30 for elk. He spent several decades cowboying around here when the old model 94's and savage 99's were standard saddle guns. He tried an '06 back in the 60's but didn't care for the recoil. The lever gun and 30-30 fit his hunting best, and he killed elk every year. He's pretty old now and doesn't get out much. Another friend, a young guy like me has decided he needs a two gun battery. Elk are just too big for his 30-30 so he uses an old .32 special for them. Both rifles are model 94's. He got a couple antelope again this year with his little gun, the 30-30. If I had to return to using a 30-30 I wouldn't slow down one step, I'd just get closer. I've shot enough elk with a bow to know it's no problem to get within range for any cartridge.

WOW, what logic. The 30-30 was too big, so he switched to a larger caliber. Amazing

JWP hasn't had his coffee yet.;)

That makes good sense,Cobrad.He moved up from .308 to .321 in caliber size and a danged nice Levergun.I only have one Mod '94 left.I wished I had kept them all,now.The 30-30 and .32 Special are very similar in ballistics except the .32 shoots a bigger bullet.

Jayco

You are correct I missed read that a least twice. I'll go and pull my head out of my azz, now

I had a few lever guns in years past, the venerable model 94 30-30 and an old Marlin 45-70. Killed elk with them, then moved on. Guns have been like wives for me, I could never seem to stay with one forever. I've got a few good ones now (guns) that I plan never to part with, but I will add a few more to the harem.

That's okay, just have another cup of coffee. We're all just here for the fun, right?

I think elk smell funny.

You laugh when you smell them?

Ok, I think elk smell weird.

To me, elk smell like a barnyard, and like a dog gets excited when he smells... things, my heart beats faster and I get real focused when I smell elk.

So you are saying the smell of elk is like Ritalin to you?

Not to me, I just think they smell strange.

Side note to the .270's and 7's that I normally use---I'd love to have a perfecto day with snow and elks in the timber and sneaky up on one with a 45/70 Guide rig. Now that to me would be a big time blast!

4 you 45/70 users what do you like for loads on elks?

Thx
Dober

I used a 300 grain Barnes XFN at 2000 fps on a Spike a couple years back.Last year I hunted with 425 grain Cast and had to pass on a nice Bull because of a cow behind it.That bullet will exit any Elk.I have 350 North Forks/350 Woodleighs and 300 Nosler Partitions loaded for hunting Elk with my Guide Gun.

The main reason I ended up with a 45-70 Guide Gun was hunting in really thick stuff with my .270 Win coming up on there bed without knowing it,they scattered and I couldn't get a good shot off snagged up in the super thick tree's and branches.

It goes with us every year we can hunt.

Jayco

How about the Beartooth bullets? I've used it off and on in my M29/44 and like it do they have a 350-400 that would work well?

Thx
Dober

Ritalin? Maybe sort-a. I get pretty focused alright. You can smell where they've peed for several days, but more than once I've been tracking, or drifting through the timber, and smelled elk on the air. I get pretty sneaky then because they gotta be close.

Mark D. I've become bored with the idea of the 45-70. It just shoots big holes and kills stuff. Even most of the guns it's chambered in have lost their appeal for me, but I still love still hunting the timber and the romance of an open-sighted lever gun to do it. I would prefer one of Doug Turnbull's 1886's in .475 Turnbull.

Back when I had an used a Guide quite a bit I totally loved it for Jan yote calling days.

Dober

Like this Mark?

Probably should oughta kept this gun... it was an accurate bugger...

I did learn about shooting high with buckhorns under stress, later that day......

Damn...how did you keep that scope from removing your eyebrow everytime you shot that thing? That scope looks way back there to me...

Hey it's not quite to the butt stock is it...

Dober

I like 'em that way scenar. I don't crane my neck forwards on the stock like most of you wierdos seem to!

My rifles- even light heavy kickers like my .325 Kimber, .338, etc are generally set up with the scope as far back towards me as the rings will allow. I don't get hit. It bears realizing- my head isn't any closer to the scope than yours would be... you know?

Plus, the scope on that 45/70,, a Burris 2-7 Compact, has some SERIOUS eye relief.

That pic is on Tower Mountain, in NE Oregon. I really miss hunting there. Fire changed the hunting conditions... the elk mostly left the area once the burned areas grew up in dense tamarack reprod...

Guide guns are cool....this is the scope I run on mine....grin! It's never come close to my eye and it hasnt fogged up yet....laffin!

Pat I use the same rear and a fiber optic front, I need to get into another one for calling spring bruins...grin

And I have a yote story that involves a real rodeo that some day off line I'll tell you.

Dober

I'd like to hear it!! Here's another one of my favorites, a Lyman on my old 1886 45/70.

Mine got set up like that after the buckhorn fiasco. A fiber-optic front and XS Ghost Ring ring rear. Nice setup!

The only lever gun I currently own is a 22" Browning BLR in .325 WSM. It's a great rifle for timber elk hunting, though that's as far as I've gotten with it... haven't done any timber elk shooting with it.

You guys with plentiful elk and month-long seasons really are in the tall cotton, I hope you thank your lucky stars out there!

Someday... someday I'm coming over to Montucky for an elk hunt. I'm gonna wear a disguise so I look like Sam. You'll just know it's me by the scope mounting <grin>.

Hey what do you two Professors Emeriti of Rifledom think of my .325/7WSM recoil test idea?

My 45-70 sports Warne QR bases and rings with fiber optic front sights and a 2-7X Leupold with Warne Rings,then if I need just open sights,I have a GS QR Ghost ring site that mounts on the rear Warne base and returns to zero as does the Leupold.



Jayco

The Guide Gun is a small package and very handy.I re-sized my only picture for an avatar but you can see how it stacks up against a good sized tire.



Jayco

I had a 20" BLR in .358 for a while. Never hunted elk with it but I have to think it'd work. I have hunted elk with my .358 M7, also 20". Very handy.

I had a BLR in 7 mag for a short while. My intention was to rebarrel in .338 mag, but I lost interest and moved on to another project. The BLR was a nice shooting rifle. It was one of the older ones with the rounded pistol grip. Love that model.

My .358 had the straight grip; my .325 has the pistol grip. I prefer the pistol grip.

Hey here's some interesting gack. I am gonna run my little recoil experiment just for grins, so I looked up 7wsm and .325wsm velocities with 150-gn bullets on the Hodgdon site... get this... The .325 will push those suckers to 3362 fps, while the 7wsm only makes 3116!

That's a ~250 fps difference. Expansion ratio in action!

Of course, an 8mm 150-gn has a lousy BC...

And so does the 45-70 but it will shoot end to end in any Elk or Brown Bear not to mention it went through two Cape Buff's shoulders..

BC/SD and other equations are all flawed in real life.

Jayco

Well.

SD is an easy thing to beat up on, but BC is real easy to see play out at longer ranges.

Just for kicks just now I ran a chart on wind drift and drop of the 7mm and 8mm 150's at the speeds above. The 7mm absolutely KILLS the 8mm.

I'd not want to poke an elk with an 8mm 150; that's about like a 130-gn in .30 cal. Unless it was a mono bullet. Heck even then I'd rather not!

Numbers impress you way too much..........

Be that as it may, you'd not be running the 8mm 150, and it's .290 BC...

Jeff I watched a man hit a rifle gong at 500 meters with a 6" m-29 44 mag with 240 grain bullets7 or 8 out of 12 shots. The misses were figuring out the sight picture

Run the numbers on that one

I've shot bullets with a BC in the .2's at 400 yards from an accurate (at 100 yards) rifle.

They sucked.

No thanks.

I'll agree on the .290 BC. It's not very aerodynamic and loses speed and energy too fast, and is badly deflected by wind. I know the value of energy is debatable, but, in the case of the 150 gr. 8mm, there is insufficient weight there to sustain much momentum either. Now, this doesn't matter much anyway if shots are close.

Damn, you guys type to fast for me. By time I have a response ready the topic has left me behind. It's tough always sucking hind tit!

Skill, now there is a novel idea

I've shot a lot of bullets with BC's in the .2's through my 22-250 and some speedy little 58 grainers through a .243 and while I've made a lot of shots between 400 and 560 yards with them it doesn't take much breeze beyond the 400 mark to blow them all over the landscape... wait, this thread is about 7mm vs heavier, not lighter. Never mind.

Jeff0,
I have been reading here that the .223 with a Barnes bullet is dandy on deer. Following that line of reasoning I would think that a 25-06 with Barnes bullets would be plenty on elk?
7mm Magnum rifles should be more than enough IMO.
whelennut

Yeah, and...

I would agree that a 7mm magnum is more than enough to kill elk.

I wouldn't pick a 25-06, but I bet it wouldn't suck.

.338 Win mag is my idea of "perfect" for hunting a bull elk tag, IMHO. There really is no argument against it other than recoil, I suppose.

Actually here's how my brain works. If I were retubing my Montana with the express goal of making it the best ELK rifle possible on the Montana platform I'd look hard at .358 WSM wildcat..... A 225-gn Accubond at 2800 fps.... or a 250 PartitIon.... yeah, that'd hammer elk.

A 7mm Rem mag w/a 175 Nosler Partition at about 2900 fps worked great for me some years ago when I took a nice 6x6 Wyo bull. He took a few steps after the hit, then collapsed. That long & lethal 175 Nosler went right on through, doing a fine job. I went with the 7mm at the time because I shot it well, and didn't see any reason not to use it.

This year I was carrying a Number One in .375 H&H, just for the heck of it. No shot opportunity though. Doggone it! Was looking forward to trying the 260 Accubond on elk. Worked fine on bear earlier in the fall.

That Wyoming bull is the only elk I've taken. Quite a critter. Those things are a heck of a lot bigger than the mule deer I usually hunt!

Somebody brought up the .358 Win/BLR combo - the most experienced elk hunter I know has used that, with a little Aimpoint on top, to take upwards of a dozen elk, along with a few deer and a couple of black bear. He likes it, for good reason.

Good reading on this thread. Learned a bit. Pretty easy to tell that most elk hunting is wrapped up for the year though.

Regards, Guy

I have a couple rifles like that - Marlin .30-30 ands Remington .30-06. Hope to 'fix' that.


Moth long seasons? What a dream...

Just ran my informal recoil comparison between "7WSM" and .325 WSM. I put the 7WSM inquotes because I was just simulating it.

The simulation was, 150-gn bullets at an estimated 3100 fps from my .325... which should be pretty close to what a 7WSM drives them at.

I have no idea how the bore size influences felt recoil, but I should have matched up bullet weights and velocity and powder charge here... within a couple grains anyway....

Anyway, it was interesting. I shot off my bench on my studio porch, from sitting, with just a sweater on. The .325 was a pretty good punch as usual. The "7WSM" was most definitly coming from the same ballpark, but was less punch and more pop. That's how I remember the 270WSM I've fired behaving, too.

Just FYI...