Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Pros & Cons: 7mm-08 vs. .308 Win for plains game

I want to bring up one aspect of bullet construction that I have not read much about, and have not noticed during the discussion so far on this topic.

The Europeans designed bullets such as the RWS Torpedo Ideal Geschoss ( ID Classic) and the Sellier & Bellot Cutted Edge that have a sharp shoulder to cut full diameter holes in the impact side hides of game animals. Most common hunting bullets do not have this "feature" but it may be significant.

I suspect that if blood trails are the goal, wide blunt nose bullets, or those with a distinct "cutting" edge will provide a entry hole in the elastic hide that will be much wider and clearer than that made by a smoother spitzer. It may even make up the difference of 20% in "surface area" that is being argued here. A bullet with a blunt point or cutting edge might leave a better blood trail from the entry wound than a larger diameter bullet with a sharp & smooth tapered point.

I have used .30 - .35 caliber round nose bullets, and 7mm bullets by RWS and S&B just enough to think there is some merit to the concept. The dozen or so animals I have taken with such bullets have provided good blood trails and clear entry wounds.

I also like 7mm bullets for their great sectional density and killing effect on game combined with low recoil and "shoot - ability".

More experienced hunters please comment!

Interesting thought castnblast. While not more experienced, I may be able to comment on such bullet construction's effect on game in a few months. I've got some A Square Dead Tough softpoints for my 9.3x74R drilling, which have a shape kind of like you're talking about. They have a very blunt nose, followed by a parallel sub bore diameter nose that terminates in a very sharp shoulder to full diameter. they cut holes in the target/backing similar to what you'd see made by a wadcutter. Very different from the holes made by the Hornady spire points I was also shooting. Hope to see what they do on RSA plains game in late April! I don't expect any revolutionary performance, I'm just curious, and want to try a different bullet.

Hopefully, someone on the fire has tried this style of bullet on game, and will chime in.

Jeff

My math is right. The area of a circle is pi divided by four times the diameter squared (D * D). You can calculate the area of a circle with either the radius or the diameter (after all they are always related by a constant factor of 2) - it doesn't matter as long as you divide by four when you use diameter, as I showed. You either divide the diameter by two to obtain the radius before you square the dimension or you divide by 2 squared (i.e., 4) after you square the dimension. I've calculated the area of a circle more times than probably 99% of the population, and I've found it simpler to use the (pi/4) * D^2 approach when the data lists diameter instead of radius, as it usually does for my uses.

So, back to my question... would a blunt nose or cutting edge bullet design make up the difference in entry hole diameter when comparing a .284 ( 7mm) cutting edge bullet and a .308 (7.62mm) diameter spitzer bullet even though the spitzer is larger in area? I suspect it does!

Bullet design and velocity are what kill, bleed, drop, and make holes in animals. Not the caliber difference between 7mm and .30. MOST factory loaded 7mm bullets have been of soft point nature for decades. It has only been the last 5 years or so that any ammo makers have put stout bullets in any of the 7mm calibers. Most of the factory loads wouldn't penetrate an elk fully. The bullets were always of 140 grain or 160 grain soft point design (very soft points). Soft point bullets at 3,100+ fps simply don't exit, hence, no blood trails. I would bet my left nut that 95% of the "poor performance" JJ has experienced over the years and why he is so down on anything under .30 caliber is due to the wrong bullet choice, not the caliber. The silly notion that 20% difference in frontal area makes or breaks the tracking job, due to a 20% smaller entrance hole between .284 and .308 is pure hogwash in my experience. Been there done that MANY times. What the bullet does on impact and exit is what makes the blood trail, not the diameter it left the barrel at. Premium bullets in the 7mm's now make it perform with good entrance and exit holes. I have killed many truck loads of deer and elk with .30's and 7mm's. The bullet construction has MUCH MUCH MUCH more to do with the entrance and exit holes sizes than the "caliber". The tissue, muscle or bone that is contacted on entrance has as much to do with the the hole size as anything. This is a silly argument. Put good pullets in any medium bore and go hunting in Africa, Alaska or your back yard. Flinch

I happen to agree with JJHACK. The man has seen thousands of animals shot and tracked. Where "exactly" does the line get drawn? If there is no difference in entry and exit holes with the 308 versus the 284 bore size, then there must not be any difference in the 284 versus 264 and 257 bores---right? So, that means we can also assume that the 257 bores make no bigger holes than .223 bores---right?

So lets all get a 223 and run off to Africa.

Don't tempt me....

Last time i went the only rifle I took was a .22-250...

Flinch I agree with you on the 7mm's in general but very good 7mm bullets have been available a lot longer than the last 5 years.....I mean even the first X bullets have been around since(when?) the 90's?The Swift Aframe and TBBC also date back to the 80's and early 90's. These are all very capable 7mm slugs.

There have been others that had a fine reputation even back to the 50's;maybe not as numerous as today but they were certainly there..

Pick up a copy of Hagel's "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter".This will tell you more.

Premium bullets were available to a point, but VERY hard to get in reloading form, let alone factory ammo (in 7mm mag or 7mm-08). Good factory premium ammo was as scarce as an honest politician 5-7 years ago. The Barnes bullets sucked pretty bad 5-6 years ago (pre XLC era). I know, I tried a bunch of them. The TBBC were horribly inaccurate along with the Swift bullets, but performed well if you could hit what you shot at. Both were REALLY hard to get and were generally $2+ a bullet, If you could find them, I know, I tried. Most guys simply grabbed whatever was available in 7mm and went to Africa, with very poor results. My buddy took 10 boxes of 7mm magnum 160 grain Federal TBBC to Africa 6 years ago. He experienced FLAWLESS performance on everything he clobbered, big and small. He killed over 30 critters from duiker to kudu. His PH was NOT a 7mm fan at all and wanted him to bring a different caliber. The 7mm magnum was all he had and he was comfortable with it. The PH had a lot of really bad experiences with run of the mill 7mm bullets clients brought out, just like JJ experienced. He was so tickled with the performance of the TBBC bullets after my buddy finished his safari, that he was going to recommend them to his 7mm clients from then on out. Things have changed dramatically in the 7mm in the last 6-7 years. Flinch

A taxidermist and daughter I know used his Ruger 77 in 7RM on a full range of African plains game about 8-9yrs ago, all he used was Federal factory ammo loaded with 160grNPTs. (I've posted pictures of some of his African kills in the past on a similar 7mm bashing thread on here). His PH was very impressed especially the way the daughter could shoot the 7RM.

I know for fact the 160grNPT is one penetrating SOB, I've put 'em thru elk and huge black bears with exits. And the 140grNPT in the 7-08 seems to have the same trait, it would work perfectly on African game.

As for African game tenacity or toughness, Mule Deer wrote a nice article recently on the subject.

I still grin when someone labeled the 7RM as the "hit 'em again 7", apparently they've been reading too many books or don't know good shot placement. Or feel the crowd here is easily fooled.

MtnHtr

I've killed kudu, gemsbuck, hartebeest etc with the 7x57 and 160 partitions at 2750 fps. No problems with them, the 7-08 would be pretty much more of the same.

MtnHtr, I never heard anyone say "hittem again seven", that is funny. I am sure there must be others for cartridges people have a grudge against.

Yep. Loaded with 140gr TSX at about the same velocity, the 7mm-08 should penetrate and kill every bit as well.

Had a friend kill his last minute Kudu (last couple hours remaining on the very last hunting day) with a 7mm-08 stocked with 140gr. Accubonds.

I had to borrow my PH's 7mm Rem Mag a couple years ago in Namibia, as I had forgot my ammo back in camp (thought it was in my day bag!). Again, 140gr. Accubond which had no trouble dumping two Gemsbok in the dirt.

My youngest boy is going to give the 7x57mm Mauser with 175gr. NP a whirl this summer.

I've just revisited this and seen all the posts about the differences in frontal dia of 7mm and .308 projectiles. I know it is winter in the USA but you guys need to get out more into the fresh air.

A 7mm through the top of the heart will kill the animal just as effectively as a .308 projectile into the heart.

Our original poster needs a low recoiling plains game rifle. The 7x57 is it and despite all the calculations and numbers, the perceived recoil in a full sized rifle like a CZ or Zastava will be less than a .308.

If one handloads, one can get the best of both worlds with the .308 - the recoil of a 7x57 with the larger .308" bullet. With roughly the same bullet weight and same muzzle velocity out of identical guns, a .308 Win will have roughly the same recoil as a 7x57.

Take your pick and use premium bullets. I killed a Gemsbok last month. .308 with 165 SGK's. No exit, no blood trail. I put 4 into the shoulder thru the heart and lungs. I didn't need to put 4 into him, but I didn't want to track him either.

Either should be fine. Make sure you go with a premium bullet.

Dave

I agree with the first part of your post and that makes an excellent compromise. I however owned a heavier .308W than the current 7x57 I use and recoil for me is substantially lower with the 7x57. I don't pretend to know why, I can only guess the case design and less powder makes a difference.

I would guess the difference in felt recoil is probably related to the stocks (designs and materials) on the two different rifles. The .308 Win case is smaller than the 7x57 case (as shown by the difference in case capacity between the .243 Win and the 6mm Remington, which are based on the .308 Win and 7x57 cases, respectively); therefore, the .308 Win should require less powder to achieve the same velocity for a given bullet weight; thus, the .308 Win should theoretically recoil ever so slightly less, all else being equal.

You can always re-barrel a Model 70 to .338 Federal pretty reasonably.

Either of those cartridges will work fine for everything with good bullets and shot placement. I've used a .308 to take hundreds of head of African game, including lots of kudu and wildebeest as well as a few eland and zebra with excellent results. My son has used his .260 with 120-grain TSXs on kudu, wildebeest, zebra, and nyala with absolutely devastating results. This year, he'll use it on eland and, hopefully, leopard. I have no reservations about it because he shoots well and I know the bullet will reach the vitals when it gets there.