Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting VLDS or NBT love um or hate um

Everyone agrees that driving drunk is a bad idea? That seems like a ridiculous statement to me. How many OWI arrests will be made tonight alone?

My point was, if I perceive a bullet as marginal in an application, why would I then use it in that application? If I were to 'prove' myself right, would that be irresponsible?

The "I have used it on game and you have not" argument seems very weak in proving a bullets terminal superiority.

If there are much better bullet choices, I will use them (and do).

Does anyone think this "Best of the West" show could possibly promote irresponsible shots, referring to relatively-new hunters that do not have any idea what long-range shooting entails?

Does anyone actually watch that show?

I haven't watched it, as I do not have cable/dish.

When we got a dish two years ago the first thing I did was watch some of the various hunting shows and set them up on timers to record. After watching a few I killed the timers and haven't watched any since.

BOTW gives me heartburn..LR for dummies, what could possibly go wrong?

...........Well let me ask you this Werner. How in the world can the "I have used it on game and you have not" argument be weak??? How else would or could any hunter determine or prove a hunting bullet`s terminal lethality unless he were to use that particular bullet on game and see for himself the terminal effect?

Just because you happen to have the opinion or perceive that the VLDs are not the proper bullet to use for elk, in no way should imply that they cannot be used for elk. And just because you happen to disagree with the VLD concept of killing elk, doesn`t mean they cannot or should not be used.

It is intertesting that I have read posts, where reports have came from at least one elk camp, where PHs reco nothing but the VLDs. It is also interesting to read the many reports of quite a number of successful bull elk kills using the VLDs, including one of my own. On other forums and distributor sites, where bullet review sections are common, there are a bunch of 5 star reports written by those who have used the VLDs for elk and deer. "reloadersnest.com" is one of them.

You are not judging the VLDs by the end results. Instead, you judge them and will not use them because they don`t happen to meet your criteria for what the proper elk bullet should be.

I could understand better that opinion that you have, "IF" you tried them and for some reason due to the VLD`s fault, you either lost a kill or the VLD didn`t perform as expected with a well placed shot.

As to the "Best of the West" TV show which I have seen many times. They ALWAYS promote and stress using the proper long range equipment in a rifle, cartridge and optics. Furthermore, they always stress taking plenty and plenty more of long range shooting practice before any long range hunt. That doesn`t sound too irr-responsible to me. In fact, just exactly the opposite.

One thing is very clear. The VLDs are an extremely lethal and a very capable bullet for downing any size elk, through thick bone or otherwise.

Until you can produce or source other reviews from not only on this forum but from others where there are numerous reportings of VLD failure by hunters who have used the "hunting" VLDs on elk, then your opinion might lend itself to better credibility. I can`t find numerous reportings, but maybe you can?

The "I have used these bullets on game and you have not" argument is not valid. It still all stems from personal opinion.

A hunter could walk up to a kicking animal that has had the 'entrance' front shoulder turned to mush. In these days of Hollywood special effects, that hunter could be very impressed with the performance of his bullet. If the kicking animal dropped right there, the hunter could believe there is no better bullet out there. Quite possibly, this hypothetical has actually occurred in the field somewhere.

For me, that kind of terminal performance is not desirable.

There has been many head of game taken with VLD's. Undoubtedly, a good portion of those bullets performed great.

Again, my concern is with the bullets that have been shown to perform marginally (even if game was brought to bag).

My opinion or definition of marginal performance may differ from others. I do enjoy conducting penetration tests, which you are welcome to discount.

bigsqeeze, BOTW routinely puts guys with zero LR experience behind the rifle. mtmuley

Fortunately, we can learn from other peoples� experiences � otherwise mankind would not have survived through the stone age. There are more than enough reports of VLD performance, including those from Berger and Mule Deer for the non-VLD user to form a pretty good opinion. Those experiences include Berger�s own test results and claims of up to 18� penetration as well as experience from Mule Deer who states the following:


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...4918632/Re_Recovered_Bergers#Post4918632

So far, I don�t think any VLD fan has addressed the subject of Bergers when deeper penetration is needed except to dismiss even the possibility of such a need as something that �hasn�t happened to me� or as something that isn�t a concern. From 1982 until 2007 I was also in the �it hasn�t happened to me� camp, but I also recognized that didn�t mean it never would � and in 2007 it did.



I have to agree with Mike - I think there are better choices available and I use them. Others can do as they please.



You are correct � they don�t meet Mike�s criteria or mine. I have found it quite possible to get deep penetration and straight down results with other bullets and see no reason to go to a bullet that is advertised not to provide the deep penetration and whose adherents (that would be YOU) suggest limiting shots to relatively shallow angles of no more than 35 degrees.

Many reports on VLDs have been glowing recommendations, but there are also reports that leave me scratching my head as to why I should choose them. Mule Deer�s �On many animals they don't even dent the ribs on the far side� is one such report.



I quit using standard cup and core bullets on elk after taking my first one with my 7mm RM and a Hornady 162g BTSP. That bullet hit a rib going in, lost most of its weight in the chest, slipped between the off-side ribs and came to rest under the hide on the off side. The calculated impact velocity was well within the claimed operating envelope for a VLD, as was the low weight retention. It was a broadside hit and, no surprise, the elk was on the ground when I recovered from the recoil. The problem was that by then, even as a novice big game hunter, I had seen wounded elk fleeing the shooter at a clip the shooter could not match and recognized that the Hornady BTSP might not provide the penetration needed in such a situation where steep angles and/or hind quarter shot are all that is left. A Berger VLD , with its advertised 18� of penetration, isn�t the answer I want.

Then it all boils down to what one has in mind after a bullet makes its impact.

By the numbers:

1) This is a non-sequitur. The number of DWI arrests has no bearing on what most people think about drunk driving, and I'd go so far as to say if you interviewed people who've just been arrested and are in the back of a police car on the way to jail, they'd overwhelmingly agree that driving while drunk is/was not a good idea. And if you put them in front of a judge, it'd be unanimous.

2) If you think a particular bullet is less than adequate, by all means don't use it. That's a personal choice. I'd never tell anyone to use any piece of equipment that they have no confidence in. But when you tell others not to use it based on zero experience with it, that's not a personal choice, it's called "talking out your ass."

3) I would tend to disagree in cases like this where there's a wide divergence of opinion, with knowledgeable people coming down on both sides. I'll listen to the people who've done it.

To quote Sir Lancelot:
"Your rage has unbalanced you!"

What is it you disagree with - the people that say the VLDs work great or the same people when they say you need to limit the angle of your shots and shouldn't expect the fragments to reach the off-side ribs?

Rage? I don't know Lance, but my question would be has HE used VLDs on elk? If so, I might listen to him. Since you call him "sir" he must be experienced.

Neither. I disagree with the poster's premise that one who hasn't used a particular piece of equipment or at least seen it used is on equal footing in determining its general utility and limitations with one who's used it or seen it used a lot.

....................Agree with #`s 1, 2, and 3. Agree especially the following quote..........."But when you tell others NOT to use it based on ZERO experience with it, that`s not a personal choice, it`s called talking out your ass."

Yep! The pie holes are getting a workout!

Please reference where I told anyone not to use VLD's. I gave an opinion on why I do not use a controversial big game bullet.

I love the Berger VLD threads (along with .22's on big game, "killing power," adequate elk rifles, etc. etc.) because they always bring out the same people, who all claim they're not trying to change anybody's mind, but keep posting and posting and posting and posting....

I think what you and Smokepole are saying is true, but there is a Campfire dynamic I'd like to comment on; I hope nobody takes it personally as it's just a general observation.

It bears remembering that most times, those arguing against a given bullet, be it a TSX or a VLD, are basing their opinion on what the proponants of the bullet have said. In other words, they are paying them the ultimate respect, even though they've decided not to use that bullet.

For instance, I've read what you've written (John) on the VLD and, considering you to be a very credible source, have decided that I personally don't have much interest in running a bullet with those terminal ballistics on elk.

Same (for me) with the TSX in most cases; I've heard what the proponants have to say and decided it's not what I want, generally speaking. That's based on respecting the info that the users have put out there. Similarly, having heard plenty of guys who've BTDT talk about .22 CF on deer, it just doesn't interest me.

So by all means, I agree with the idea that experience trumps guessing. On the flipside, it's odd to me when the proponants of something, whatever it is, then get angry at folks for listening to them.

No, you denigrated those who use them, which is the same thing as saying that Berger users are wrong for using them.

But the two quotes below sum it up for me pretty well, another example of casting aspersions on something you've never seen: