i may be blasted here but oh well i got thick skin
! the new contoversial bullet here seems to be berger vld hunting bullets not passed judgement on them myself yet but was kinda thinking they work a lot like nosler BT's but yet some of the same people that hate NBT love the VLD is there really much diff in there profomance after striking game ? as for working range in vol. dont know the low vol. for NBT but have seen some where that the VLD is listed at 1800 fps same as ttsx

I like and use them both. Rapid expansion and excellent accuracy are the norm for both. Have been using the B-Tips for a long time now, since they were introduced. To me it seems like the Ballistic Tip expands faster, on impact, while the VLD penetrates through, into the chest cavity before really opening up.

My use has been on mule deer for the most part, and mostly with smaller calibers, 6mm & .257" dia.

Might just be interesting to hear from some of the guys who have done a lot of deer-killing with them both.

BT's have a lower BC, but I shoot and love them both. I haven't used the Bergers, because the Hornady Amax's work SOOO well. I see no reason to change. Amax's are half the price of Bergers as well. If I'm going long over 600 yards, I prefer the Amaxs. Both perform fabulous for me. I am one that couldn't care less about exit holes, which neither provides very often. It doesn't matter, because no tracking is involved with either bullet. Stuff just crumples on the spot. I have shot most of the premiums in various calibers and I always go back to ballistic tips and Amaxs. I like the "dead right now" results they both provide in a MUCH wider range of velocities. The premium bullets have a VERY narro sweet spot where they perform at their best. The VLDS have a MUCH larger sweet spot. Flinch

I never had much use for NBT's. I killed a couple deer with them several years ago and was not impressed. In last couple of years I have killed a couple antelope and a couple deer with them and am starting to change my mind. The thing I have found with BT's are when your shot is a little off it still delivers plenty of trauma. I shot partitions for years and never seen the damage that I have seen with BT's in shots that did not hit bone.

Dink

Like Flinch, count me as another over of the BT and the A-Max. They just kill schitt

I have no use for either.

The VLD's and BT's work very well on the elusive Gela'lope.

Unfortunately, the animals I hunt are vertebrates. Heavy bones can wreak havoc on a fragile bullet.

If this thread is moved to the varmint hunting forum, I will praise them all day.

For the bashers... How many elk have you sent one into? Curious.

Common sense can be used in life. Who was it that said "When something doesn't seem quite right, it usually isn't"?

I have no intention of experimenting with (what I perceive to be) a marginal bullet on a large game animal.

There are too many other options out there that I believe will perform when the chips are down.

Why do cable-show-groupies get so offended when folks say they will not use a certain bullet?

I hate it when people review things they have never used. YMMV.

Common sense will get you far, sometimes. But your theories do not match experiance. Naysayers with nay experiance will not sway my choice of bullet. Shoot what you want.

Have had good luck with NBT's. Shot an elk last season in WY with ine. Ranged 439 yds out of a 300WSM. Didn't take a step. Where I hunt it will be mostly long shots so I want a bullet that will open up when velocity starts to drop off.
John

Marketing fads are great, aren't they?

I personally have never stood in long lines to get "Cabbage Patch Dolls" or "Beenie Babies", but do not criticize those that do.

If they work, use them.

I hate it when folks make ridiculous assumptions.

Just because I have chose not to use VLD's or BT's on larger game, please do not assume I have not shot them.

Assumptions like never using a bullet on something and then discussing how bad they would be? Carry on with what you like to use, as will I.

A thought or two this morn from frozen Big Sky country.

First off, I've been a heavy user of the NBT since it came out. I've found it accurate and eager to please and a terror on game! Meaning it doesn't take any work for them to perk in my rigs. So, they shoot very well, have plenty of BC for me. I realize that other bullets have higher BC's, but at long range which 4 me is 400-700 (while taking big game) I'll be using either dotz or turrets so that doesn't matter one bit to me. I can easily sight in a scope with dotz to hit to 700 with one BC as I can one with a BC that's close. And with turrets I only need turn in a skosh more and I'm there, so the extra BC is a non issue for me.

In my years of using NBT's I can recall finding exactly 3 of them. One was a 55 NBT out of my 6/06 that took out both fronts of a whitey @ 190 yds and I found it just under the skin. Another was with a 55 NBT out of my 22/250 on a big bodied muley, 150 yds or so thru both fronts and I found it just under the skin about to keep going. And lastly, a sizeable bull taken at just under 200 yds with a 200 NBT out of my 338/06. Bullet took out a shoulder, went up and broke the neck and we found it in the skull cap (bullet looked model perfect).

But other than that all bullets have exited and I/we've taken a couple two or three arks full of game with them. They exit and give me two holes which is something I like. Now I rarely need them but they're there if I the need arises. Typically the critters just bounce and its game over very quickly. And I'm using behind the shoulder shots for the most part.

So if you haven't noticed by now I likey the NBT's, they work and I don't have to dick with trying a new bullet. Something I've grown tired of over the years..

Amaxes, hardly any experience with them. Shot the 162 a bit in my Mashburn. It shot ok but not as good as the 150 NBT has so I didn't go there anymo. A couple good buds used the bullet when it first came out and had some issues with it so that's probably colored my desire to work them. The 155 Amax shoots very well out of a couple 30's (WSM, Wby) and I may need to give it a go for giggles.

The Bergers have given me fits in terms of getting them to shoot the way I want (same with the Scirrocco's, and yet all else get them to work). The one gun of mine they shoot in is my short barreled 788 in 7/08. That one with R17 and 168's shoots bug holes and did so from the start. But so does the 139 Horn, and being as I doubt the gun will ever be used past 500 I'll most likely stick to the Horn as it's cheaper and it'll do all the killing I need it to do.

So, the Bergers haven't really floated my boat. My experience has been they're more money, they're tougher to get to perk and I see no bene from the extra BC. Plus, and for me this is important I like two holes in game.

I feel, and I could be wrong on this as I am wrong plenty but I'd guess with time some of the novelty of the Bergers will wear off. People will use them less and less and go back to their old stand by's. And and I could be way wrong on this but I'd bet that with time some stories of ugly killings happening coming out of the wood work. Hope not, but I wouldn't be suprised if that didn't happen. I have a big suspicion of things that appear to be all rosey when things are still in their honey moon stages.

Guessin I'll be driving the NBT's more...

Either way, I don't care what people drive as long as they shoot straight, shoot often and get out there and get it done!

Have a super 2011 all!

Dober

I like the idea of a Berger, but have had poor luck getting them to shoot in my rifles. Shot deer, elk and antelope with the NBT though. Going to try Accubonds instead of NBT's on elk in the future.

...............48 hogs and 1 bull elk est at about 750 lbs through the thickest part of right shoulder bone = 49 to 0 in favor those damn (marketing fad-hype), useless and frangible VLDs.

And btw Mr Werner, if you think that a VLD cannot penetrate thick elk or hog bone, then you greatly under-estimate their capability to do so (as never having used them yourself on elk?).

Experience can be a very good teacher, as opposed to assumptions made by those who have never used them on elk and other game.

Many VLD detractors such as yourself (which is ok btw; happens on every VLD thread), automatically assume that so-called match bullets or so called frangible bullets, just aren`t meant for use on big game such as elk. Nevermind of course, that most VLD detractors haven`t used them on elk and usually won`t try to because of their pre-conceived assumptions and notions of what the proper big game hunting bullet should be.

Us VLD users don`t care about complete broadside or pass through penetrations. The vitals for elk and most big game animals are loacated in the center of the animal towards the front if I`m not mistaken? So complete penetrations are not all that important for we VLD users, because its those vitals that need to be disrupted. A bullet partially penetrating a possible tree on the other side of the animal serves what purpose?

Us VLD users are not concerned with bullet weight retentions or for that matter any bullet recoveries. For what purpose? When we VLD users have for the most part DRT kills or animals that only run a few yards after impact and then drop, then why care about recoveries and weight retentions? What is the point of that?

Anytime you or anyone else, would like to put some serious dollars on the table betting against the VLDs to penetrate thick bone, look me up! I`ll be happy to plop down a few bucks in favor of the VLDs.

Squeeze-seems to me your burning a Berger in a WSM, which one and what does it prefer for propellant?

Thx
Dober

Pretty simple. Have you put one into an elk? Yes? No? I do love people who feel free to comment on something they have never done.

Mr. Holton,

Where have you seen 1800 fps listed as the minimum recommended impact velocity for TTSXs?

I haven't seen anything from Barnes or any other authoritative source that recommends a minimum impact velocity lower than 1900 or 2000 fps for TTSXs (depends on specific caliber and weight of TTSX). Seems that a lot of people use 2000 fps as their minimum impact velocity for Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets, and I'm sure that's based on discussions with Barnes given what I've gathered from my correspondence with Barnes.

Once you try them they are pretty amazing aren't they(VLD's) I shot a couple of elk this year a couple of deer and as a group a bunch of goats. They were impressive on everything I shot out of my 300 RUM and 7WSM.

Driving drunk is bad. Do I have to drive drunk and injure someone to prove that?

I do not drink and have no plans to change.

I will not experiment on big game with your new 'magical' bullet, either.

I have no desire to jump on this cable-show bandwagon.

It's nothing new, just groupie marketing.

Glad you qualified that with �most� but I�m not sure even that is correct. �Some�, certainly.

Judging a bullet based on manufacturer�s stated performance is not necessarily the same as judging it on �pre-conceived assumptions and notions of what the proper big game hunting bullet should be�. Nor is basing it on the experience of people that have used them.

Berger advocates like to talk about shots to the chest and even you have stated that they work best with no more than a 30-35 degree angle. I don�t recall any VLD fans talking about what happens when things go wrong and you hit an animal in the hams because it turned away as the trigger broke. I have a little experience with that using the North Forks and the result was a very sudden and completely satisfactory ending � except for the buck � with the bullet recovered from up against the sternum. Barnes MRX have gone lengthwise through a mulie for me too, in the other direction, with the same straight down results. The Grand Slams I used for 20+ years provided a lot of straight down results with only two elk making it 40 yards and most of the rest no more than a step or two. It took me 20 years to recover one and when I did it had smashed the ball in both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull.

Given that the North Forks, TTSX/ MRX and other bullets I use provide deep penetration and more than satisfactory results even on bad angles, why should I consider a VLD when the manufacturer states it typically won�t do the same?

I hear that they work well, I've had a heck of a time getting them to shoot the way I want though..

And the NBT's shoot so well and work so well that I see lil or no reason to push using them.

Now the Scenar has my attention and if they'd make one for my 7 Mashburn Super I'd be all over trying it. But, in the end I spect it'd do what the NBT does and that is shoot well and kill well.

Which VLD are your running in your 7 WSM?

Thx
Dober

guys thanks for sharing personal experiance and ideas here and keeping to pissing contest down i think some(myself included) dont or did not for a while relise that the vld target and hunting bullets are different i too am having a harder time get the bergers to shoot as good as i would like compared to NBT that is part of the reason i started this thread to see if i wanted to continue to spend the time and $ to do so or just stick with nosler for my long range loads (for short range like around 350yds and under i do use tsx or ttsx)hell i may just load accubonds for all and forget it

What caliber?

Dober

i will go look and see if i can find it and let you know it may be in a barns demo video?

I look forward to hearing about what you find. The only low impact velocity info I've seen on Barnes' website involved simulating bone contact before the the bullet enters the ballistic gelatin (Barnes refers to that as bone-gelatin).

Barnes info from testing with "bone-gelatin"

The 7mm TTSX results look good, even at long range, with the simulated bone strike, but I don't think I can count on hitting bone on the way in every time, particularly on a broadside or slightly angling away shot.

I will take that as a no. You have never sent a VLD into an elk, yet you feel the need to comment on them in the Elk hunting forum. Correct?

Again, no desire, Wyo.

If they work for you....great. The design just holds nothing new for me.

been toying with them in .257 roberts. for some testing but for hunting elk it would be .300wby

Pretty darn sure the Rbts would tip em over quite well with a 115 NBT

Dober

if wife went she woulkd pack a .260 hell i might just bring the wby ultalite in .308 a lot lighter to pack and nicer to shoot

The two bullets I used this year on game were the 180 Berger in a 280AI and the 162 Amax in a 7/08AI. Saw nothing to cause me to dismiss either as a game bullet; bear, antelope, deer, and elk all died in appropriate fashion. I do plan to try the Amax in the 280AI when the chance arises, for economy and simplicity.

ok i cant find what i was looking for so i called barns to make sure i had not lost my mind they said they test in water down to 2000fps with ttsx and 1800fps tsx so i was thinking backwards but aslo said in s study on a lot of game in the feild they were seeing fine proformance at some what lower vol. with both

Oh, and I don't have cable, so I doubt cable shows were a factor in my choices.

Carl-any chance you've tried the 155 AM's? They shoot great in my WSM and my G-dads old 300 Wby.

Dober

I haven't, though I've used the 168gr 30 cals on bear and deer with good results. The 155's wouldn't spook me if the application was within reason.

BTW, regarding your friends negative experiences with early 162's, they have changed the design since it came out, substantially I believe.

I heard that they've changed it, good deal as the fella lost a booner lope over the deal...oucha

Dober

LD - Thanks for checking. What you found matched what I had gathered - just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on some data.

I'm guessing the "fine performance with somewhat lower velocity" is a combination of (1) they require consistent expansion in their expansion tests at the listed velocities and (2) bone is hit often enough in hunting situations that they see examples of expansion at lower velocities than they would in water.

Serious ouch. My uses of 162's this year:

no problem i know i got 1800 some where in something published i do really try not to make this stuff up like some ot well i will leave that alone lol

If you want a real eye opener on Berger's on game performance go over to long range hunting and search for the "bullet tests" by "RoyinIdaho"

He strung up a great big ole pig and did some terminal performance testing. I think there are 3 or 4 threads relating to his tests.

I understand the "if it ain't broke,don't fix it" philosophy. On the other hand if everyone prescribed to that we'd still think the earth is flat. And no I've never had the opportunity to use the Bergers on elk, but based on a truckload of other critters wouldn't hesitate to do so. But again if I was offered a shot and was ,using any one of the other brands mentioned I not hesitate either. Good hits with the vast majority of bullets available results in harvested animals, gut shots and broken legs are the same regardless of bullet. My $.02 worth.

Now that is a nice buck Carl! General area or spcl draw?

Dober

..........As a matter of fact, I use several VLD loadings from my little 300 WSM Ruger Frontier carbine.

69.2 gr RL17 behind a 155 VLD @ 3234 fps
66.8 gr RL17 behind a 168 VLD @ 3039 fps (whatta great hog huntin load this one is; slams `em)
66.5 gr RL17 behind a 175 VLD @ 2983 fps (this one too)
65.5 gr RL17 behind a 190 VLD @ 2865 fps (this loading was used on my last successful elk hunt).
66.0 gr RL22 behind a 210 VLD @ 2732 fps

Tack on roughly 5% or so to the above velocities for the longer 24" barrels.

RL17 delivers the best velocities with good enough accuracys for hunting. H-4350, Varget, IMR 4007 give better accuracys from my lil Ruger using the VLDs but at reduced bullet speeds.

When available from my dealer, I`ll be trying that new Hodgdon Superperformance powder with the VLDs.
That powder just may take the 155 VLD up to 3300 fps, the 168 VLD to 3100, the 175 VLD to 3000, the 190 to 2900, and the 210 to 2800. If achievable, those #s shouldn`t be too bad from a 16.5" barrel uh?

Gotta love the RL17 powder technology from Alliant and this new Superperformance stuff from Hodgdon. The barrel gets longer, without growing an inch.

BS,
That Ruger shoot all of those well? When is the new Superformance powder coming? You load any 7MM Rem Mag with 168 Bergers?

Dave

.............Look at it this way Coyote. I as a VLD user, love the challenge of getting better angles for my killing shots (less than 30 degrees).

I will also point out, that my VLD performances in the field, match the performance claims by Berger for their hunting VLDs.

And, in all my 45+ years of hunting, I`ve never once had the occasion to shoot an animal in the azz hoping for a full length bodily penetration as a last resort.

I`ll keep in mind your "what if" this happens and what "if that" happens scenarios. But, I`m not worried in the least.

.............Yup! 1 1/2" and less (outside edge to outside edge) for all those loadings. And that`s why my lil Ruger compact is nicknmaed "mighty mouse." Great deception and well under-estimated for its compact size.

Superperformance powder will be coming to the shelves at anytime from what I understand.

No, I don`t own or load for a 7 Remy Mag.

Squeeze,
I am pretty excited to try some of that new Superperformance powder. Thanks for the heads up.
Mighty Mouse souns like a dandy.

Dave

No experience with Elk but plenty with Deer and Hogs. The TSX and Partition have been my projectiles of choice for years in my 270. Still luv em. I've been using my 6.5x55 and 7x57 (7mm-08 also) more and more and have been extremely impressed with the results of the 140gr VLD and 120gr BT (6.5x55), 140gr VLD (7mm-08), and 162gr A-Max(7x57). I'm amazed at how quickly and violently these bullets kill game. I've yet to see a deer or hog travel more than a few steps, most DRT. The posts from skeptics about the "theory of why these bullets can't work" reminds me of the humerous Holiday Inn Express commercials, "are you an expert in X or Y, well, no, but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night".

...............It is a real handy dandy! Ballistically, on par with a 26" barreled 46" OAL 30-06 AI rifle, but in a pkg that`s only 35.5" long. Add an inch for my slip on recoil pad. Quite a little monster.

Good luck with that new super powder from Hodgdon.

The VLD has done very well for me, both close and far. The NBT is a proven killer but the BC advantage of the VLD works better for me at longer range.

Yes I have shot them ( VLDs) into shoulders at close range and liked the results.

Been there and done that and it worked quite well.

Hey!!! That was me testing the Bergers on that hog with RoyinIdaho! Damn that was a big hog!

In my WSM I am using the 168 Hunting version. In my RUM I use the 185 Hunting version. The 168's have performed very well for me close and far.

Cool, How is he doing, I lost track of him. Last I heard he was getting a 375 CT, but have not heard anything else.

bigsqueeze �

Getting closer is fine, but that isn�t always possible. Sometimes you take that shot at the range it is presented or go home empty-handed. I�ve done it both ways, with no regrets, and will continue to do so.

That said, I don�t know anyone that goes out looking to shoot an animal in the hind quarter. That certainly wasn�t my intent when I took a quartering shot at a buck in 2007, but hind quarter it was. Frankly, I wasn�t worried at the time either � partly because it had never happened to me before and partly because I had reason to believe the bullet I was using was up to the task if things went wrong. Things did go wrong and the bullet proved itself up to the task, penetrating from ham to sternum - much further than Berger says a VLD will do.

The big promise of the VLDs is they drop game quicker. The North Forks, MRX and TTSX I�ve been using have been dropping animals before I can recover from the recoil. If the VLDs are faster I�ll never notice the difference � nor will the game.

Keep using those VLDs if you like - I�ll stick with others and everyone goes home happy.

.....................We are all "guaranteed" to pay taxes and "guaranteed" to eventually die. Everything else, including any "what if" scenarios on a hunt can be considered as hypotheticals.

But I do understand where you are coming from.

But in order to find out if there are any differences in dropping game faster between the VLDs and the bullets you are using now, wouldn`t you need to try the VLDs on a few hunts in order to make that assessment?

Just a thought!

Hypotheticals, yes, until they happen. My preference is to prepare for the worst and work for the best. Things still don�t always work out as intended. My hunting buddy dropped his first elk, a 5x5 bull, with a neck shot, DRT. Against my advice he tried that on his second with the same bullet and cartridge and we didn�t find it for 24 hours. Stuff happens...

Could VLDs drop game faster? You tell me. Here is my track record since year 2000 for elk:

7mm Rem Mag, 160g Grand Slam, 6x5 bull elk, straight down, struggled to feet, took 2 steps and down (2000)
7mm Rem Mag, 160g Grand Slam, 5x5 bull elk, straight down (2002)
7mm Rem Mag, 160g Grand Slam, cow elk, 40 yards (2002)
.45-70, 350g North Fork, 6x6 elk, straight down (2003)
.300 Win Mag, 180g North Fork, cow elk, 25 yards (2006)
.30-06, 165g North Fork, cow elk, straight down, back up and straight down again on 2nd shot (2007)
.30-06, 165g North Fork, cow elk, straight down, back up and straight down again on 2nd shot (also 2007)
.30-06, 150g AccuBond, cow elk, straight down (2010)

I did have a bad experience with the 7mm RM, a 160g Barnes XLC and an unfortunate buck antelope in 2001, even with 3 good hits to the chest, which is why I never used them again. (Burned the rest up on targets.) Some people think premiums are too much bullet for light game like antelope, and with the 160g XLC I would agree. Others seem to work quite well. Here is my track record on antelope since I started hunting them off and on in 2001:

7mm Rem Mag, 160g XLC, buck antelope, straight down and back up on 1st and 2nd shots, down for good on 3rd shot (2001)
.375 Win, 225g Hornady SP, buck antelope, death leap and DRT (2003)
.308 Win, 168g TTSX, buck antelope, straight down (2008)
.257 Roberts, 100g TTSX, doe antelope, 25 yards (2009)
.257 Roberts, 100g TTSX, doe antelope, straight down (2010)
6.5-06AI, 130g Scirocco II, doe antelope, straight down (2010)

I might add that I took my son-in-law antelope hunting in 2009 and again in 2010. Also took two nephews on their first antelope hunt in 2010. They accounted for three more antelope, as follows, using my handloads:
.30-06, 168g TTSX, doe antelope, straight down (2009)
.30-06, 150g AccuBond, buck antelope, straight down (2010)
.30-06, 150g AccuBond, doe antelope, straight down (2010)


Take out the 7mm 160g XLC and the track record is pretty good. VLDs might result in animals going straight down as well, but I doubt anyone could tell the difference, even with a stopwatch.

Coyote... .have you placed a Berger into an elk?

No. I quit using standard cup and cores for elk in the early 1980's when I switched to Grand Slams.

Edited to add:

Nor do I intend to try them. I'm quite happy with what I currently use. In the event that I need to put down a fleeing and possibly wounded elk or end up with a shot like the aforementioned buck where a quartering away shot turned into a ham shot, I have confidence my choice will provide better penetration than the Bergers on bad angles, based on my experience with my choices and reports from both Berger users and Berger themselves.

I'm not trying to sway VLD lovers from their choice, just explaining mine.

I have no dog in this hunt. I've never shot a Berger at a game animal, but I've put several hundred downrange.

This is a ridiculous comparison though. Pretty much everyone agrees that driving drunk is a bad idea. It can kill innocent people, plus it'll get you thrown in jail.

But not everyone agrees on the use of any bullet, much less one specific brand, on big game animals especially big ones like elk. There are a lot of different opinions on Bergers, some based on experience, others not.

Personally, when I sift through the chaff on this or any internet site, trying to stick to the wheat, I like to hear what a poster's personal experience is with the product under discussion.

So the question "have you done it" is a good one in my opinion.

going straight down is STILL and always will be a matter much more so of shot placement, than bullet choice.

Jeff,

I know you firmly believe that, and of course to a certain extent it's true. On average, a spine hit will drop them faster than a lung hit!

But it's not what the forensic guys who study bullet wounds say, about chest cavity hits. They say that, on average, drop-time is related to the amount of vital tissue damage. And that's what I've seen as well.

I think...speed/shock/tissue damage and placement all come into play.

If I could get the bergers to shoot I'd love to do some serious testing for a couple years. Problemo is, they've been a curse to me aside from one gun (788/Carbine in 7/08 which is a jelly bean gun, meaning it'll shoot jelley beans into sub moa...grin).

And, I've kind of reached an age where I just wanna go hunt and don't feel the desire to dick around with other bullets like I once did.

Now my question to my elders (Bob,Ingwe, JB...grin) is that maturity or older age creaping in?

Dober

Mark,

One of the side-effects of maturity is not having as much time as we did when we were young and, ah, irresponsible (that is, until we retire and can theoreticaly do anything we want). Plus, we have more experience. Between the two, we feel less need to dick around with new stuff, since experimenting is by definition almost always something of a waste of time.

I feel the same thing, quite often, even though I'm paid to experiment!

By the way, I've also found Berger VLD's take more effort to get to shoot than, say, Ballistic Tips. But when the rioght combo of powder and seating depth can be found, they REALLY SHOOT.

Of course, the very first rifle I tried them in was my NULA .30-06, and the 185's started shooting sub-half-inch consistently, right off the bat, with 58.0 grains of Ramshot Hunter. That ommediate gratification helped in continuing the experimentation. By this point I'm reasonably certain the the right throat has a lot to do with whether they'll shoot or not as well.

Put a few of those into some elk as well. Good bullet.

Dober:I think it's a lack of desire to mess around once you have a combination or two that works over a long period of time and enough animals....and you stop worrying that something else might work "better" because the truth is very few North American hunters will ever shoot enough BG with a great enough cross section of available bullets to get a clear indication of what they all do....at some point you decide ..."am I gonna go hunting or am I gonna test bullets.."?

Those that run around shooting a few animals with "this" or "that",and drawing fast conclusions about whether it's better than something else have not gathered any real data.....they have only gathered an insignificant sampling.....
gun writers who hunt,cull hunters in Africa or Australia,guides who specialize in certain species,and professional hunters are better positioned to shoot a lot of game or see a lot shot and evaluate bullets......the rest of us are better served, I think to pick a couple of well proven designs and stick with them.....that's the only way a guy learns anything about his choices,if he gets to hunt enough.

Jumping from this and that to something else is a time consuming and expensive path to nowhere.One eventually figures out that range time (precious) is better spent practicing your own shooting skills than worrying about tiny groups and fractional differences in killing performance between bullets having similar design characteristics.

One bull elk with a Berger or a Swift Aframe is not a valid "test" IMHO.

Once again Bob the voice of reason and sound advice.

Sam: BTDT....

yep me too. I'll keep shootin Partitions & Accubonds.

Once again I'm a little late to the topic, lots of good stuff. I identify with Bob and Dober when they say they are just about through dick'n around with new bullets. I gave up dick'n around some years ago looking for a serious BG bullet. My choice suits me, I make no claims that my choice somehow makes your choice second rate. So don't waste your time trying to straightening me out. I'm often wrong but I'm seldom in doubt. My choice when I'm serious..Nosler Partitions. Big or little, near or far, good angle or bad. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

And a fine one it is!

I started using Ballistic Tips in the 1980's... have never recovered one and have always liked the results. My 308 would have been stoked with 168 NBT's this year could I have found even one box for sale. I used my supply up shooting fascinating little groups from the bench!

I settled for 165 Accubonds which don't shoot nearly as well as the 168 NBT's in my rifle. I doubt the results would have been different with the Ballistic Tips.

Have no need to try VLD's.

M.D. Are you out there? I don't want to hijack this topic but I have a question for you. I just counted the Nosler Partitions I've recovered or the past twenty years or so, there are 15, .270cal. through 180gr 30cal. Antelope to bull elk. I honestly don't know how exactly many animals I've killed with various Nosler Partitions in that twenty year period, but it would be 60 head or so. You do the math. My question goes to why others find so few NBT when I seem to be finding so many Partitions. Seems like it should be the other way around. I also have a lot of recovered Hornadys, but that's another story. Thoughts?

My guess would be that many hunters use Ballistic Tips on smaller animals like deer, or are so concerned about whether or not they'll penetrate that they don't take shots that require much penetration.

I have recovered some Ballistic Tips, because I've used them on some tougher-angle shots and also on some pretty sizeable animals. Most of the ones I've recovered have been in the rear halves of animals I shot in the front end, like the 120-grain 6.5 I found under the hide of the rump of a pronghorn doe taken with a front-angling shot last fall. I also have the mushroomed remains of a 200-grain .338 that did the same thing on a bull gemsbok--after smashing both the near shoulder and the spine between the bull's shoulders. But I have also shot lengthwise through some deer-sized animals with Ballistic Tips.

A lot more Partitions have been recovered, probably because I've shot so many animals with them in calibers from .224 to .416. But the percentage recovered is pretty small, probably 15-20% of the animals shot, and most of those were also on angling or full-length shots.

Thanks, Mule deer. Another thought, because I like to examine bullet performance I maybe put out more effort to fine them than others do. Anyway I thought it interesting.

I try hard to find them as well, and can only recall maybe 2-3 times when a bullet inside an animal couldn't be found.

Everyone agrees that driving drunk is a bad idea? That seems like a ridiculous statement to me. How many OWI arrests will be made tonight alone?

My point was, if I perceive a bullet as marginal in an application, why would I then use it in that application? If I were to 'prove' myself right, would that be irresponsible?

The "I have used it on game and you have not" argument seems very weak in proving a bullets terminal superiority.

If there are much better bullet choices, I will use them (and do).

Does anyone think this "Best of the West" show could possibly promote irresponsible shots, referring to relatively-new hunters that do not have any idea what long-range shooting entails?

Does anyone actually watch that show?

I haven't watched it, as I do not have cable/dish.

When we got a dish two years ago the first thing I did was watch some of the various hunting shows and set them up on timers to record. After watching a few I killed the timers and haven't watched any since.

BOTW gives me heartburn..LR for dummies, what could possibly go wrong?

...........Well let me ask you this Werner. How in the world can the "I have used it on game and you have not" argument be weak??? How else would or could any hunter determine or prove a hunting bullet`s terminal lethality unless he were to use that particular bullet on game and see for himself the terminal effect?

Just because you happen to have the opinion or perceive that the VLDs are not the proper bullet to use for elk, in no way should imply that they cannot be used for elk. And just because you happen to disagree with the VLD concept of killing elk, doesn`t mean they cannot or should not be used.

It is intertesting that I have read posts, where reports have came from at least one elk camp, where PHs reco nothing but the VLDs. It is also interesting to read the many reports of quite a number of successful bull elk kills using the VLDs, including one of my own. On other forums and distributor sites, where bullet review sections are common, there are a bunch of 5 star reports written by those who have used the VLDs for elk and deer. "reloadersnest.com" is one of them.

You are not judging the VLDs by the end results. Instead, you judge them and will not use them because they don`t happen to meet your criteria for what the proper elk bullet should be.

I could understand better that opinion that you have, "IF" you tried them and for some reason due to the VLD`s fault, you either lost a kill or the VLD didn`t perform as expected with a well placed shot.

As to the "Best of the West" TV show which I have seen many times. They ALWAYS promote and stress using the proper long range equipment in a rifle, cartridge and optics. Furthermore, they always stress taking plenty and plenty more of long range shooting practice before any long range hunt. That doesn`t sound too irr-responsible to me. In fact, just exactly the opposite.

One thing is very clear. The VLDs are an extremely lethal and a very capable bullet for downing any size elk, through thick bone or otherwise.

Until you can produce or source other reviews from not only on this forum but from others where there are numerous reportings of VLD failure by hunters who have used the "hunting" VLDs on elk, then your opinion might lend itself to better credibility. I can`t find numerous reportings, but maybe you can?

The "I have used these bullets on game and you have not" argument is not valid. It still all stems from personal opinion.

A hunter could walk up to a kicking animal that has had the 'entrance' front shoulder turned to mush. In these days of Hollywood special effects, that hunter could be very impressed with the performance of his bullet. If the kicking animal dropped right there, the hunter could believe there is no better bullet out there. Quite possibly, this hypothetical has actually occurred in the field somewhere.

For me, that kind of terminal performance is not desirable.

There has been many head of game taken with VLD's. Undoubtedly, a good portion of those bullets performed great.

Again, my concern is with the bullets that have been shown to perform marginally (even if game was brought to bag).

My opinion or definition of marginal performance may differ from others. I do enjoy conducting penetration tests, which you are welcome to discount.

bigsqeeze, BOTW routinely puts guys with zero LR experience behind the rifle. mtmuley

Fortunately, we can learn from other peoples� experiences � otherwise mankind would not have survived through the stone age. There are more than enough reports of VLD performance, including those from Berger and Mule Deer for the non-VLD user to form a pretty good opinion. Those experiences include Berger�s own test results and claims of up to 18� penetration as well as experience from Mule Deer who states the following:


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...4918632/Re_Recovered_Bergers#Post4918632

So far, I don�t think any VLD fan has addressed the subject of Bergers when deeper penetration is needed except to dismiss even the possibility of such a need as something that �hasn�t happened to me� or as something that isn�t a concern. From 1982 until 2007 I was also in the �it hasn�t happened to me� camp, but I also recognized that didn�t mean it never would � and in 2007 it did.



I have to agree with Mike - I think there are better choices available and I use them. Others can do as they please.



You are correct � they don�t meet Mike�s criteria or mine. I have found it quite possible to get deep penetration and straight down results with other bullets and see no reason to go to a bullet that is advertised not to provide the deep penetration and whose adherents (that would be YOU) suggest limiting shots to relatively shallow angles of no more than 35 degrees.

Many reports on VLDs have been glowing recommendations, but there are also reports that leave me scratching my head as to why I should choose them. Mule Deer�s �On many animals they don't even dent the ribs on the far side� is one such report.



I quit using standard cup and core bullets on elk after taking my first one with my 7mm RM and a Hornady 162g BTSP. That bullet hit a rib going in, lost most of its weight in the chest, slipped between the off-side ribs and came to rest under the hide on the off side. The calculated impact velocity was well within the claimed operating envelope for a VLD, as was the low weight retention. It was a broadside hit and, no surprise, the elk was on the ground when I recovered from the recoil. The problem was that by then, even as a novice big game hunter, I had seen wounded elk fleeing the shooter at a clip the shooter could not match and recognized that the Hornady BTSP might not provide the penetration needed in such a situation where steep angles and/or hind quarter shot are all that is left. A Berger VLD , with its advertised 18� of penetration, isn�t the answer I want.

Then it all boils down to what one has in mind after a bullet makes its impact.

By the numbers:

1) This is a non-sequitur. The number of DWI arrests has no bearing on what most people think about drunk driving, and I'd go so far as to say if you interviewed people who've just been arrested and are in the back of a police car on the way to jail, they'd overwhelmingly agree that driving while drunk is/was not a good idea. And if you put them in front of a judge, it'd be unanimous.

2) If you think a particular bullet is less than adequate, by all means don't use it. That's a personal choice. I'd never tell anyone to use any piece of equipment that they have no confidence in. But when you tell others not to use it based on zero experience with it, that's not a personal choice, it's called "talking out your ass."

3) I would tend to disagree in cases like this where there's a wide divergence of opinion, with knowledgeable people coming down on both sides. I'll listen to the people who've done it.

To quote Sir Lancelot:
"Your rage has unbalanced you!"

What is it you disagree with - the people that say the VLDs work great or the same people when they say you need to limit the angle of your shots and shouldn't expect the fragments to reach the off-side ribs?

Rage? I don't know Lance, but my question would be has HE used VLDs on elk? If so, I might listen to him. Since you call him "sir" he must be experienced.

Neither. I disagree with the poster's premise that one who hasn't used a particular piece of equipment or at least seen it used is on equal footing in determining its general utility and limitations with one who's used it or seen it used a lot.

....................Agree with #`s 1, 2, and 3. Agree especially the following quote..........."But when you tell others NOT to use it based on ZERO experience with it, that`s not a personal choice, it`s called talking out your ass."

Yep! The pie holes are getting a workout!

Please reference where I told anyone not to use VLD's. I gave an opinion on why I do not use a controversial big game bullet.

I love the Berger VLD threads (along with .22's on big game, "killing power," adequate elk rifles, etc. etc.) because they always bring out the same people, who all claim they're not trying to change anybody's mind, but keep posting and posting and posting and posting....

I think what you and Smokepole are saying is true, but there is a Campfire dynamic I'd like to comment on; I hope nobody takes it personally as it's just a general observation.

It bears remembering that most times, those arguing against a given bullet, be it a TSX or a VLD, are basing their opinion on what the proponants of the bullet have said. In other words, they are paying them the ultimate respect, even though they've decided not to use that bullet.

For instance, I've read what you've written (John) on the VLD and, considering you to be a very credible source, have decided that I personally don't have much interest in running a bullet with those terminal ballistics on elk.

Same (for me) with the TSX in most cases; I've heard what the proponants have to say and decided it's not what I want, generally speaking. That's based on respecting the info that the users have put out there. Similarly, having heard plenty of guys who've BTDT talk about .22 CF on deer, it just doesn't interest me.

So by all means, I agree with the idea that experience trumps guessing. On the flipside, it's odd to me when the proponants of something, whatever it is, then get angry at folks for listening to them.

No, you denigrated those who use them, which is the same thing as saying that Berger users are wrong for using them.

But the two quotes below sum it up for me pretty well, another example of casting aspersions on something you've never seen:

Smokepole, I honestly thought you would never notice and ask (concerning viewing the show).

I was recently contacted by a gentleman that had missed a few 350 yd shots at elk with his 30-06. He was hunting in Colorado, last October. We'll call him Jack.

Anyway, he had just bought a used (new to him) 7mm. He told me he was planning for a 800+ shot. He had seen it done many times on the "Best of the West" cable show.

Jack was putting a "less than $100" turret scope on the rifle, and using Berger bullets (just like he had seen on the show).

This was a wood stocked 700BDL with no mods. No bedding job, no free float, no trigger mod/replacement, not even epoxy on his swivel studs for a bipod.

In Jack's mind, he had a true 800+ yard rifle and ammo. How could I argue with the experts on a cable show (that I had not watched)?

Mule Deer, do you think this "Best of the West" show can influence relatively-new hunters in taking longer shots than they should be taking?

It can certainly influence the idiots and there is no way to help them.

Ignorance is correctable, but there ain't no fixing stupid

jwp-
Jack is not an idiot.

This is a situation where Jack's limited experience has caused him to be over-influenced by a cable show.

Not the show`s fault or the VLD`s fault for Jack missing his elk from 350 yards. It was Jack`s fault.

Jack didn`t likely practice much longer ranged shooting if any at all. Likely didn`t chrony his loads to get a velocity estimate to calculate trajectory either.

Yep! Let`s blame that show and not Jack----ass.

bigsqueeze - Jack just recently bought the 7mm. He was not using VLD's last October.

+1...




The facts speak a different story. A man hunting with X caliber then buy Y caliber because someone else has done well with it, well I would call that brilliant.

In fact I'd use a 30-06 to over twice the distance that Jack missed from.

A wise man once said "stupid is as stupid does"

Jack is gonna need a lot of trigger time and a lot of work to get that 7mm ready for season, he needs to start right now. Of course most people do not know enough to know the level of dedication required to shoot stuff at long range.
Kinda like all them deer I have killed with bergers, too dumb to know they were not dead. If they figure it out and crawl outta the freezer I am blaming it on the campfire and all of the bullet experts letting us know that bergers will not really kill anything.

.........I read in your above post that was using the VLDs.

Who said that they would not kill?

General statement not directed at you, I understand your position as per LR vs general use.

squeeze,
Jack just recently bought a 7mm, turret scope, and Bergers as a result of watching the BOTW show.

The missed shots last October were with a different weapon altogether (a 30-06).

We know and that is the proof that says Jack needs to purchase a clue

Somehow, bigsqueeze took it that the misses last October were blamed on the VLD's.

No one said that.

No one blamed the VLD's or the show for the misses last October.

Please read the post.

The problem is that Jack blamed the rifle and cartridge that he had and simply bought a 7mm, because that is the cartridge used on the show and then purchased a cheap scope with turrets that he has no idea if it adjusts accurately and repeatable nor does he know if the scope adjusts in MOA or IPHY and now he thinks that he is ready for 800 yard kills on game

Now that is stupid. I am sorry if he is your friend, but I mean come on now don't blame the show

Wow. Just wow.

I've never watched the show. But it's hard to believe that BOTW or any other show advocates using a "less than $100 turret scope" for 800 yard shots. Does it??

Does "the show" also advocate using a "wood stocked 700BDL with no mods...no bedding job, no free float, no trigger mod/replacement??"

I seriously doubt it.

But let me see if I've got this straight. You know "a guy named Jack" who watched a show on TV and somehow decided it was OK to take an off-the-shelf POS rifle (which they don't use on the show) he'd not practiced with and blaze away at an animal at 800 yards, and you're blaming it on "the show?"

A show you've never seen??

Well, I know how you feel. I saw Evil Knievel jump the Grand Canyon once, on a motorcycle. I know a guy, let's call him "Jill." He bought a mo-ped and tried to jump the canyon. He didn't make it.

That damn Knievel, it's all his fault.

Smokepole-
You asked how I could post a question concerning a show I had not watched. You saw contradiction in that, didn't you? Now you know.

The name has been changed to protect the guilty.

I have no idea what the show promotes (in equipment), hence the questions.

I would certainly hope the show does not promote long-range hunting with standard factory rifles, cheap scopes, and marginal Berger bullets.

The question remains....could a newbie attempt shots they have no business trying as a result of watching this BOTW show?

For the record, no one has indicated Jack is not going to practice from now til next fall.

If they are stupid they could. But if they are that inexperianced a wounded animal is not any more likely than when they missed the 300 yard shots, probably less likely.

If they buy a cheapo scope and then shoot at game at 800 yards like Jack told you he was ready to now do and are as stupid as Jack, then the answer is yes

There's an easy way to answer that question, if you're really looking for the answer.

Watch the show and see for yourself.

Speaking of irony, wasn't it smokepole that thought the drunk-driving analogy was ridiculous.

No one said Jack said HE was ready to shoot 800 yards. He plans to practice long-range shooting this year.

Jack thought his 'new' equipment was up to the task (which was about as bad).

So, you guys are all saying the media absolutely does NOT affect your preferences or purchases?

Werner, I think I found the problem.

His hunt was last year.

Yes, it was me who said that. And it's still just as ridiculous, or a "non-sequitur" to be more precise. I think I already demonstrated that.

My example is much closer to reality in that both sides of the analogy include the experts, or guys who've really practiced their particular craft and use highly-specialized equipment, and the "wanna-be's" who watch them on TV once, don't put any work into becomimg proficient, and use equipment that is by definition not up to the task.

In both cases failure is the fault of the wanna-be's, not the experts.





No, I don't recall saying that. But I'm pretty sure this particular show hasn't affected me, since I've never seen it.

Has it affected you?

The hunt last year (and a show) influenced purchases this year.

Reading comprehension must be a God-given gift.

I think you missed the point which was your pal Jack put the cart before the horse, so it's no wonder he missed those shots.

In other words, it's his fault entirely, not a TV show's fault.

What ever happened to taking responsibility for your actions?

Your pal Jack's problem was not a TV show, but his failure to take responsibility for his own actions.

What has the world come to when people blame their own shortcomings on a TV show?

Again, I in no way support Jacks actions (the lack of reading comprehension must be rearing its' ugly head once again).

He missed at 350, which I would hardly classify as ultra-long-range.

He wants to be capable of shooting 800 yards, but does not totally understand what that entails.........yet.

My frustration is having this 'show' brought up when trying to encourage the necessary requirements for shooting at even 400 yards.

Go back, read what I posted, and see if you can find where I said or implied that you "support Jack's actions" as you put it. Then get back to me on the reading comprehension thing.

My point is not whether you support Jack's actions, it's whether you're willing to lay the blame for Jack's mistakes on a TV show you've never seen, versus at Jack's feet, where it belongs.



Well, I didn't bring it up, your pal Jack brought it up in the context you stated above, so I think you should take it up with him.

Either that, or watch the show for yourself and form your own opinion.

And don't forget, you're the one who brought it up here.

I can't understand why some people are willing to bitch and moan about something they've never seen but are unwilling to take the time to actually observe what it is they're bitching and moaning about.

What mistake are you referring to?

Did Jack make a mistake in purchasing a new rifle?

Or, are you referring to the missed 350 yard shot (with the old rifle)?

Your presumptuous logic can be rather tough to follow at times.

Should Jack be tarred and feathered for buying a new rifle or missing a 350 yard shot?

Jack initially had some unreal expectations, derived from watching a cable hunting show. That does not mean his thoughts cannot be changed.

I am sorry if I offended you by questioning a hunting show and it's advertised bullet. Obviously, powerful marketing can be very effective, as evidenced by you and Jack.

The fact that you have to ask this question is rather amazing, since you catalogued his mistakes in an earlier post:







Well, now it's my turn to play the "reading comprehension" card. I think I've already said that I've never seen the show, and I've never shot a Berger at a big game animal.

Which is why I don't comment on either.

But you go ahead and keep commenting on both, it's entertaining if nothing else.

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!......Jack has not taken his new elk rifle on a 2011 elk hunt yet. No mistakes have been made yet!

Jack asked my opinion on what he was doing. I gave my opinions. I gave some very strong opinions. Some changes may have been made.

Like Jack, perhaps some here have fallen to some strong 'cup & core' marketing tactics.

I beg to differ Jack most certainly has made mistakes.

Here are 3 of his mistakes that we know from your posts

1-believing that his 30-6 was inadequate fro longer ranges on ELK
2- Purchasing a cheap scope with turrets and thinking that it was good to go for 800 yard shots on animals
3- Jack has no ides if the scope tracks accurately of consistently or for that matter he doesn't even know what the tracking values of his cheap scope is

Yes, I understand that Jack has not taken his new rifle hunting. His mistake was as you said, believing he had an 800-yard rifle. I would assume you suggested some changes to his set-up, if he made no mistakes, why suggest changes?

Now, here's a late-breaking news flash for you--I'm pretty sure that the TV show BOTW did not advocate a set-up such as the one Jack got, and you described above. Therefore, if you're frustrated, you should be frustrated with your pal Jack for being a dumb-ass, not with a TV show you've never seen.

But feel free to continue bitching about it, complaining about things you have zero experience with seems to be popular in some circles.

Add to that list, "watching a TV show and assuming you can replicate with little practical knowledge and cheap equipment in one season what experts using top-of-the-line equipment worked years to achieve."

+1, that makes at least 4 mistakes without ever firing a shot

Those were Jacks 'initial' thoughts. He has since upgraded scopes.

You may have a valid point concerning the 30-06. You may disagree, but the 7MAG is not exactly a step backwards either.

Those were initial thoughts by a newbie, that were not acted upon.

Indeed, his original plan was to cut corners. But, asking for some opinions appears to have turned things around.

Is it still a mistake?

There is really no need to get irrational and/or emotional over this.

Didn't you say you've never seen this show?

For some reason, you continue commenting on a show you haven't watched either. You actually seem very volatile in defending a show you have never watched.

My concern would be that a show like this could convince other "Jacks" out there that this long-range hunting is much easier than it really is. Is there some product (on the show) that is suppose to make this type of shooting less complicated?

Is it the rifle, the scope, the cartridge, or the bullet? I can assume it's all these, but what do they claim is the advantage?

Stupid is supposed to be painful

Good point.

Bring some elk shoulders and a pocket of hundred dollar bills out to Laramie. I will gladly light them up with Bergers. We can stop when you get tired of handing me bills. Deal?

Unlike you, I have experience shooting Bergers. My freezer thanks me.

..........Agree! I`ll be happy to join you along with "ANY" VLD detractor, relieve some of these VLD opponents from their money, taking a few 100s (Benjamins) myself.

Shouldn't you lil' fellars be out on the playground, trying to bully someone else.

............Get over yourself. Nobody has or is bullying anybody!

How does one "bully" someone on the internet? Is the keyboard realy able to perform such a task?

AH the Drama of it all

I assumed the discussions/disagreements could be kept half-way civil, without all the Neanderthal "wanna make a bet!" comments.

All depends on how a guy looks at it. If two friends are sitting around a fire and one fellow thinks his horse runs faster than the other fellow it only seems natural that a test would ensue and that there might be a few good natured wagers placed on the outcome.

Might even be how horse racing started.

Seem the same to some of us that if some guys want to say our bullet of choice bounces off elk shoulders we might be interested in a test and good natured wager.

Mike has plenty of posts on this thread with no actual experience sending a Berger bullet into an elk shoulder.

Some of us have and would like to make a wager.

If Mike has a bad experience to share with us about popping elk with Bergers, I am more than interested in him sharing the details of said bad experience. Right now he is guessing...

If the Berger is more than a "cup and core", please let me know.

Until then, I have no interest in using one on a big game animal.

Why does that bother you?

I tried, Smokepole tried... lets try one more time.

Why do you feel the need to comment and continue to comment on a thread about Berger bullets in the elk hunting forum when you have no, none, nada, zip experience shooting elk with a Berger bullet?

You are guessing at best.

If the Berger is more than a "cup and core", please let me know.

Until then, I have no interest in using one on a big game animal.

Why does that bother you?

Please read this second time through.

...........Because Werner has pre-conceived notions and opinions of what the proper elk bullet should be??? The "hunting" VLDs don`t qualify in his opinion.

Or, possibly a conceived notion of what an elk bullet should NOT be?

..........What an elk bullet "should "NOT be" by your standards, doesn`t always apply to others.

Understood.

Your argument is so convincing, I am going to call my congressman back and cancel my request that they 'outlaw' the Berger as a big game bullet in Iowa.

.............If your congressman were to outlaw the VLD in Iowa, then he`s probably a damned liberal!....

Can you even hunt with a rifle in an "I" state?

That is a given, unfortunately.

Yes, January doe-only season.

Unfortunately, many early-shedding bucks end up getting shot during that rifle season.

As an Iowa Outfitter, we would prefer those bucks all make it to next fall.

Werner, you do realize you've come full circle on this, right?

If Jack didn't make a mistake, then what's your beef with the TV show?

By the numbers, once more:

1) What, no comment on reading comprehension? Good plan though, when you run out of things to say, toss off some "irrationals" and "emotionals."

Which is ironic when you think about what started this particular discussion--a guy bitching about something he's never seen.

2) Yes, I did say that.

3) Volatile? How does one become "volatile" on a keyboard? See # 1 above. Then show me where I've "defended" the show.

There are two points I've made with respect to the show: first, that no one should blame a TV show for an individual's actions, and second, that I'm sure the show didn't advocate using a rig such as your friend Jack acquired for 800-yard shots at animals. I can say both with relative certainty, without having seen the show.

Of course, feel free to correct me on either point. I'll be waiting anxiously.

4) Ah, so now we're getting somewhere. Was Jack mistaken about long-range hunting being "much easier than it really is?"

5) I'm not sure. From what I've heard, it's the system, not a single component.

But here's a news flash for you--if you're really interested in the answer, there's an easy way to get it. Watch the show and see for yourself.

Or, just keep bitching about it.

This coming from a guy who's called me "emotional," irrational," and "volatile."

Oh, and questioned my reading comprehension a few times.

If you'll read my previous posts, you could eventually conclude that I was merely asking for opinions on a show that I had never watched.

Also, you'll see my name in the upper left hand corner. This was purposely done to prevent the temptation of 'name-calling' under the cloak of anonymity.

If you think I was guilty of name-calling, please accept my apology.

First, it's pretty clear you were doing more than just asking a question, and it's pretty clear you have a negative opinion of "the show." I believe you said you were "frustrated" with the show. My point remains, you should be frustrated with your pal Jack, not a TV show you've never seen.

Here's another analogy for you--I've seen Travis Pastrana do back flips off a jump on a dirt bike many times on TV. He makes it look easy. Without knowing any of the details on how he pulls it off, I can safely assume his equipment is not off-the-shelf but modified for his purposes, top-notch, and maintained to high standards. And he's been practicing his stunts for years.

So why would I assume I can go to the dirt-bike store, buy a stock bike and do the same thing as Travis? If I try that, would it be Travis' fault? I don't think so.

Second, "if you think" you owe me an apology, by all means offer one.

Third, did you really say that cup and core bullets are no good for big game, in your opinion?

smokepole-
Can you please read my post? I asked if the Berger was still a cup and core, indicating I have no intention of trying one on big game.

Can I say that any clearer? I have actually shot Berger bullets, and I have taken big game with other cup and core bullet designs in the past.

This twisted word game is getting rather tiresome.

I am a proud father of 5 sons. All 5 have had the fortunate opportunity to fill western non-resident tags within months of their 12th birthday.

I was responsible for setting up rifles and developing loads for these hunts. I was also responsible for making sure range/shooting time was a top priority before these hunts ever took place.

Trust me, too much time was spent on cartridge selection and load development. While these first hunts were always 1x1 guided hunts with dad, it still alway boiled down to them pulling the trigger.

I loaded these rounds keeping in mind that things may not go exactly right. I was there to recommend waiting for a better shot or possibly calm down some nerves, but they still pulled the trigger.

Bullet selection was very important. I wanted a bullet that would give the best chance to work when things weren't exactly perfect. I was very fortunate in that things usually worked out perfectly.

I can honestly say a couple of the mild-mannered cartridges chosen for the youngsters have been real eye-openers thru over-acheivement. A Model 7 in 260 comes to mind. (Sorry, a bit off topic in the elk forum).

My opinions and values definitely affected their hunts. If I recommend something other than their initial thoughts, I do not see them as idiots making mental mistakes. I see them as inexperienced.

My definition of 'mistake' may differ from others.

Yes, you can say it more clearly. When you say you have no intention of "trying one on big game," is it the Berger you're referring to, or "a cup and core" in general?

And you're right, the twisted word game is tiresome. I like to discuss these kinds of things with people who outline their position and then support it with facts rather than people who change their tune mid-stream using waffling language such as this:

The VLDs have worked well for me. Just this last season I took both my mule deer and elk with them, no problems what so ever.

You sir.... are full of schiit. Did you miss all of the above telling us that Bergers will bounce off shoulders and how cup and core is just way yucky for shooting at elk.

How did we ever kill elk twenty years ago before the mighty TSX was invented?

We ducked every time we shot in case the bullet bounced back and hit us in the eye.

Just joking because I killed elk over 20 years ago with the XBT and it worked. Just not as well as the VLDs are working now.

The new LRX might address some of the issues with the design for those that like the concept but want a bullet that will work better at distance.

Time will tell.

I've not tried the Ballistic tips or the VLD on big game. My friend has seen the ballistic tip used on Moose and I wasn't impressed with the results or the penetration. Although the animal was recovered. I won't use them on large game. Also my BIL shot a black bear in the shoulder with an NBT in 7mm Mag and he lost it. Personal experience will always shape what a person will or won't use, it doesn't matter how many internet stories there are.

It sounds like second-hand stories is all you've got right now...

Except for the fact that I saw the Moose right after it was shot and I was there for my BIL's black bear.

How'd the bullet perform on the bear?

Oh okay It sounded like you were just hearing stories, which wouldn't make those experiences very differenct from those you read about on these forums...

Hay now Jordan. Stories from the internet are always a good source.

Just wait tell I start SPAMing videos.

I don't know exactly. Another crew of hunters shot the bear a half hour later. They head shot it and my BIL was able to verify that his shot did indeed hit the shoulder.

Hey! Don't bad-mouth video spamming. It increases brand visibility...

Some "sources" on the internet are better than others, and it's pretty easy to tell the two apart with about 1 second of reading and a double-digit IQ...