Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Rock Island Arsenal 1911's.

Bricktop decided to run his mouth about something he evidently knew nothing about. If he had any evidence that what he was saying was right, he'd have posted it. Personally, I think a person could argue til the cows come home about why certain "upscale" pistolsmiths won't warrant work on RI's, but if they are of soft steel, there should be some evidence of it. Since Bricktop brought it up and won't let it go, he should be the one to bring the evidence, or be outed as a common Anusjester.

I certainly have more to offer, like I said; I�ve known the original importer of Rock Island Armory guns for years�I have much more to offer. But let�s not forget YOU started this dance, the accountability is YOURS first. YOU are the one who came out swinging against the RIA. So just as soon as you put up, I�ll make my case. If all you have is the �my favorite gunsmith says so� thing, then just say so. I�m thinking that�s probably all you have.

You can choose to just dig your heels in and be a jerk, or you can pipe up and learn something here; the choice is yours. So if you�ve said all you have to say on the subject, then we�ll note that as so; then I�ll educate you as to how I know what you say is NOT true.

lmaobricktop

I'm going to be a nice guy and mention no one.

Hey, as an aside, I recently sold my RIA Tactical 'cause I bought a used Kimber Custom Target II. My impression is that the Kimber is a good bith 'tighter' as to fit, especially in takedown for cleaning, and has a nicer finish, and almost any grips are better than the RIA, BUT, that said, the RIA is a nice gun - I sold it to my coworker that is my Thai-Food-lunch-bud, and so I am not going to sell him something that is crap. Both shoot VERY well, but the Kimber does out shoot it, but not by a whole lot.
If I had kept the RIA (which I was perfectly willing to do, until the Kimber came along), or more correctly for this argument, had I bought one new, I would replace the grips, duracoat it, and spend some cash-ola on ammo to break it in...and be good with it. if you get a Tactical model, it comes with all the other features that you would want. i might replace the spring with a very slightly stronger one, as the one that comes with it seems to push the slide forward a bit more leisurely than I would prefer, but that is conjecture only, I& I could be dead wrong there

FWIW...I had one of the "officers" type models and liked it alot, but had to sell it when the wifey had surgery. It was brick-ass heavy, but due to what I think was the same spring as the original, which was naturally compressed a bit more due to the smaller slide, the gun seemed to take less long to break in, hence the spring-thing above.

Yeah, I am holding on to my Kimber, but that ain't nuttin' wrong with RIA......except some others perception of them, and that has little to do with the gun.

My RIA costed $300. It goes "bang!" every time I pull the trigger, assuming it's loaded, and leaves a 45 caliber hole wherever it was pointed when the trigger was pulled. That's pretty much all I'm looking for in a $300-$400 pistol.

Here is they compact model I had

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=241431562

Paid $385 or $410 for it IIRC, I bought the tactical and the compact same time, so that is the cost for each, fer-git which is which

Post #1 to dispell the myth.

A note to Bricktop and those who are like him. I�ve taken a LOT of time to come up with these posts to educate you on this subject in the hopes you'll understand that you've read WAY too much into something, and have drawn the wrong conclusions. It is my hope that you will appreciate it and say thanks, rather than just call me an a-hole again.

Why won�t big name gunsmith�s work on RIA�s?

First, many will, but some wont. And like Bricktop said, some won�t warranty their work. So let�s address those issues. Now, I don�t know the specific policies of these gunsmiths because I�M NOT THEM. But I�ve been (and remain) and gunsmith, I know many gunsmiths in the business, so I�m covering this from the perspective of someone who has insight into the work, and the business practices of gunsmithing.

Top gunsmiths have their reputation; that is their one stock in trade in this business. If they are good gunsmiths, they have all the work they can ever handle. So let�s start the list:

Section 1: Marketing, Business Practice, Branding

- Some just don�t want their name on anything but the most well known and respected guns. This says nothing about other guns being �junk�. This is about branding, and marketing; pure and simple.
- Some also use that as a way to weed out those who are looking to �low bid� their work. By not allowing the lower cost guns, you begin with the expectation that we�re talking �Best Quality� from the get go; and we assume you�re willing to pay what it costs for top quality gunsmithing.
- Some do it just to reduce the amount of customers that want them to work on, or build up their guns. Like I said, a good gunsmith has all the work he can handle, and he�s always looking for a way to turn people away because he�s worried about doing the work he already has.

Section 2: Mechanical

- There are some gunsmiths who have tried working on a given product and had a bad experience.
- There are some 1911�s (mostly older �non-Colt�s commercial) that truly are junk guns.

Section 2: Warranty

- The rail job: Top 1911 builders more often than not, build what I call the �whole enchilada� gun. This is a fully custom gun and includes the high cost, low return fitting of the slide/frame rails. When you fit slide/frame rails, it�s not a good idea to do that procedure on a cast frame no matter how good that cast frame may be, because it will never last as long as the top quality forged frame. A rail job takes a LOT of pain staking work and it�s a job we all hate doing. A rail job is something that will also wear before most anything else will. And if that very expensive rail job doesn�t last a long time, it can give the builder a bad reputation. This is why you either will do, but won�t warranty, or the smarter move of; just won�t do it on a cast frame gun.

- But it should be known that most top gunsmiths won�t recommend doing a rail job on a forged GI military 1911 because, the metal is softer than post-war Colt�s and most modern 1911�s. Even many current cast 1911�s are harder than pre-war GI 1911�s, but a cast frame will always have an inferior crystal grain structure, which will cause a rail job to not last as long. 99.9% of the time THAT�s the part that these top gunsmith�s �won�t warranty�.

Section 4: Aesthetics

- When you spend 5k on a custom gun, it better LOOK like a 5k custom gun.
- Outside receiver shaping, a lesser quality cast frame can be mechanically perfect, but aesthetically �wrong�.
- Imperfections in casting can make subtle changes to the shape of the receiver.
- The finger relief �dimples� behind the trigger is a place where it�s common to find serious imperfections such as inconsistent shape and size.
- Budget 1911 makers simply spend less times making sure the �lines� are all perfect
- Rounded then flat are around the dust cover � Budget makers often don�t have the �line� at the flat section perfectly straight. Gunsmith will have to spend file time fixing this�if he�s building a package (and most do), this time comes out of his profit.
- It�s just easier to begin with a top quality receiver. And it should be known, even the best will still have aesthetic issues to be addressed, they�ll just have much less to deal with on average (but not always).


With the exception of section 2, none of these issues means a given gun/receiver is actually �junk�. Truly there are junk guns, but we haven�t seen true junk class 1911�s for a while. A RIA truly is a budget cast 1911 that is technically very good, but aesthetically not as nice, and at the end of the day, it�s a cast receiver which is 100% good and appropriate for ANY self defense purpose, including military service. But being that it is more likely to have aesthetic issues that will need to be fixed at the cost of the gunsmith, and not a forged receiver for maintaining that very expensive rail job; it is not a good choice for a fully custom, big dollar build. I hope everyone can see the difference.

More to come...

Good Day All....I have just got thru reading all these posts on this subject....interesting...first who I am .....

My name is James Dunn. I live in Sacramento, CA. I have been involved with 1911's literally all my life. My family has had a 1911 parts business since the mid 1960's. I currently still sell 1911 parts at local gunshows and on EBAY to help support my gun and ammo habit.

I built my first 1911 at age 12 and now at 48 I still build, shoot, and carry 1911's all the time. My shooting has slowed down lately and I only get to shoot 1-2k per month now thru 1911's. It is not a casual thing with me.

I worked for the first importer of these guns. I was the guy who did all the inspection, testing and spec checking on these guns. When speaking of this gun I feel I can speak with some authority here. The comments that Bricktop has stated are in my opinion completely without fact.

I carry a RIA today and trust my life and the life of my family to it. Given that own dozens of 1911's that should speak well in and of itself.

We torture tested the RIA guns. We did so by first installing lightweight springs then firing. There was a 5K test with the last 1K being hot loads that was very telling. We first put a 10lb recoil spring into a random picked gun. We did that to immulate the wear and tear of 12-15K rounds in just 5K. Then fired it over a 2 day period (would of been just one day but I had to make my daughters play) stopping only for cleaning every 1K. The last 1k of hot ammo caused my hand to hurt but the gun never faltered. NEVER.

After the shooting we took the gun apart and inspected. The recoil spring guide was toast. It took one hell of a beating but was still functional. The slide and frame showed no penning or cracks. The barrel lugs were still sharp and not dinged up, same with the locking grooves in the slide.

If the guns were as soft as bricktop says�there would have been massive penning or cracks and they were none. When I decide to carry a gun it gets a min of 2k thru it in the worst conditions I can provide. RIA have never failed test. Now of course some might say my experience is antidotal at best but after nearly 10 years experience with the guns I doubt that. Just my 2 cents worth.

JamesDunn,

Welcome to the 'fire and thanks for throwing in your first hand experience on the subject. Hope you enjoy this place - it's a great resource as long as you don't let people get under your skin.

Next post...

Aesthetics and �forged� aside, how I know RIA�s are good guns:


My direct, first hand experience & knowledge: I�m no longer a gunsmith by trade, but I still build guns for myself and my friends. I have built custom guns (on the cheap) on RIA receiver/frames, and a gunsmith can learn a lot about the build quality (both metallurgical and spec) by building a gun on the receiver, or customizing a complete gun.

You learn about �spec� by fitting top quality parts that are a known quality. If they�re very difficult to impossible to fit, then chances are you have a receiver who�s spec�s are a little or a lot off. You learn about hardness of the steel when you take machine tools, Dremel, or file to the receiver.

Knowing the original importer

The original importer is a very small company out of Modesto California, The Dealer Warehouse. I�m acquainted with the gentleman who owns The Dealer Warehouse. He is a former business partner to my best friend�s dad. I�ve had dealings with Rav (the owner) over the years, and I wrote an article on the Argentine Hi Power�s that he used to import. At the time I wrote the article on the Hi Powers (American Handgunner or Guns Annual, 2004 or 2005; I can�t remember which), I asked Rav a series of technical questions about the Hi Powers, but we also discussed at length the Rock Island Armory 1911�s he had been importing (this was right about the time he lost the contract to import the Rock Island guns�still a tender subject with Rav). Later in this post, or maybe another post, I�ll discuss testing done by Rav and those working with Rav at The Dealer�s Warehouse; for now, I�ll just keep this to my direct experience�

When our friend started importing the RIA guns, he also brought in a good number of frames, slides, and barrels for individual sale (and I believe a raft of internals). Many of Rav�s friends had the opportunity to buy RIA stuff for obscenely low prices and many of us bought up as much as Rav would let us buy. Some of us later paid full dealer cost to buy more because the quality was decent and prices were low.

From those frames, we all built up guns, in various configurations. Speaking for myself, 9 out of 10 1911�s that I build, I end up putting an Ed Brown grip safety (EBGS) on because I have a strong preference for the Brown grip safety. Installing an EBGS involves (some do it differently than I) cutting, grinding, shaving, then filing to re-shape the back end of the gun. That�s quite a bit of metal removal, and a gunsmith can get a feel for the hardness of the frame/receiver from doing such jobs.

Even more telling is fitting rails which is just a pain in the arse of a job to do; something I try my best to NOT do, but end up doing it much more often than I would like (I�d like to never do another one). So from fitting grip safeties, lowering and fitting rails, and checkering (I THINK I checkered one, but don�t remember for sure); I got a good sense of the �hardness� of a Rock Island receiver. At no time did I ever feel the RIA was especially hard or especially soft. Everything just seemed to be about right; and they are. You can build up a good gun from an RIA receiver. Wouldn�t be my first choice for a �best gun�, but if all I wanted was a good quality defensive piece for carry, there is NOTHING wrong with choosing an RIA receiver.

I have lowered and fit the rails on ONE RIA gun. It wasn�t uber-easy which is a sign of very soft metal. I was just as much of a B-otch as most guns, but admittedly, I�ve had guns that were tougher.

I�ve fit ONE Rock Island slide to a Caspian frame and that was a straight up B-otch, just like it should be; which is an indicator that BOTH frame and slide were very hard. But I�m here to tell you, it was the FRAME (Caspian) that did most of the give, not the slide. Yes, I AM telling you a Rock Island slide is HARDER than a Caspian cast frame. I don�t know why you (Bricktop) find that so hard to believe; especially since you don�t have any direct experience whatsoever with Rock Island products.

Additionally, I�ve milled sight cuts on Rock Island slides and anecdotally, I can say they�re a little softer than a Colt�s, but not so soft that I would call them a �soft� slide. Wear to my cutting bits was noticeable but no more significant than other common 1911 slides.

Machine quality and finish quality of a Rock Island slide is good, but not quite as squeaky clean as a Colt�s, but not noticeably behind a Springfield (stay focused, I�m talking slide here). So from a gunsmithing standpoint, every indicator points to a good quality slide. Is it a best quality slide? Not exactly, but they�re damn good and I see nothing to indicate these slides won�t last just as long as any other quality slide. Typically speaking, I find the RIA slides are better finished (as in metal work, not bluing/Park, etc) than their frames.

As for customizing RIA guns, I have done some light customizing of these guns and I�ve never had any problems fitting parts from the likes of Wilson, Ed Brown, Chip McCormick and others. Fitting parts to RIA guns, I have encountered no more fitting work than with most any other brand of gun/receiver. That tells a gunsmith that the specification is held tight and consistent; that is a very important element of building a 1911 receiver. Perhaps some have encountered problems, but I haven�t. I�ve worked on around 10 RIA guns, so that�s a decent sample, but surely not definitive. But I also have close friends who have built many more guns that I on RIA receivers, slides & barrels and I�ve yet to hear any complaints.


Gunsmith �shop talk�

My group of gunsmith friends would tell me if they ran into issues. We all tend to share our gunsmithing knowledge in an informational exchange. Just get us into a room together, pop a bottle top and the �shop talk� just naturally happens. Again, no one�s ever had issues. Every last one of my gunsmith friends have the same exact assessment as mine. Good guns, built to spec, easy to work on. Often not real pretty, not the best finishing job in the world, don�t always make for a pretty gun, but often do.

Most of the negative comments are on the final finish work, which is not always pretty. But hey, I�m here to tell you, my $1,400 (retail) SW1911PD has as many, if not more subtle machining flaws as your average RIA. But like the RIA, it has it where it really counts.

Regarding RIA whole guns, I�ll say that their internal parts often leave something to be desired. Before I trusted my life to an RIA for any long period of time, I�d swap out the slide stop. I�ve seen more than one that has had casting inclusions; that doesn�t sit well with me. Although, I have to say, I�ve never seen one fail yet.


Now I certainly don�t qualify as �one of the top gunsmith�s in the country� nor do I ever want to be. I walked away from full time gunsmithing and I don�t miss it one bit. I�m very happy to have retired to �hobby� gunsmith. But where guns and gunsmithing is concerned, I certainly know enough to form my own opinions, and I don�t let others form my opinions.




Next, will be some discussion of testing done by the importer. I have a friend who was DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the testing of the RIA guns. I�m trying to get him to log onto this forum to give a brief description of the testing done, and the results. Additionally, he is one of my gunsmith friends and he has built many guns from RIA receivers & slides; many more than I have.

If I can�t get him to log on, I�ll cover it as I know it�but I do have the e-mail he sent me on the issue which I can cut and paste what he said.

Mr. Dunn,

Hello as well and welcome! I too really like the RIA - I may be purchasing another in the future! Hoep you like it - with the exception of Briktop, we are generally well behaved

Thank you all for the nice Welcomes....I will not judge this forum by the one of its more colorful members. I look forward to exchange of information here.

iambrb....They are great guns and if you concider the price and what you are getting for your money...they are Fantastic guns.

Welcome to the Campfire James, I hope you stick around. On the whole it's still a great place to learn, share and joke. Just remember it's the Internet.

Thank you for the thoughtful posts Kevin. They take some time to type out, but I (and I'm sure others) appreciate the effort and the knowledge that's imparted.

Kevin,

Thanks for the detailed info. Heading to the range with my RIA this afternoon (along with one of my Springfields). Confident it will do fine

The only real negative I have to say about the RIA for what it is - the supplied magazine (at least on mine) isn't worth using. Switching to any of my standard 1911 mags makes everything happy (McCormick, Wilson, Metalform, etc.).

Gunsmiths and the RIA Gun;
For the first few years that Springfield Armory was selling 1911's most "Big Name" gunsmiths would not touch them noting inferior quality, soft metal etc....none of these claims were true ever of the SA guns.....then the gun caught on...Then the guns had to be marked with "Made in Brazil". The guns were always made by Imbel in Brazil just SA didn�t mark them that way and they got in a bit of trouble for it but that�s another story.

After the SA 1911's were being marked "Made in Brazil" a lot of "Big Name" really slammed them along with some gun writers. It was a bad rap just like this entire flap on the RIA. RIA has always been a good gun and its steadily improving just like SA 1911's have over the years.

The RIA guns are most likely the best deal on the US gun market. You can get the more bang for the buck in a RIA than any other 1911 type pistol made today. Ohh and there are more 1911's and 1911 mfg's today than ever in history.

Have there been some bad 1911's sold in this country, absolutely yes. Some notable guns there are the Federal Ordnance guns. These were badly made, ill fitted by less then trained labor. Now I liked the FedOrd Alloy frames but the steel frames were garbage and whole guns even worse. That said FedOrd on the best day can not measure up to and RIA gun on its worse day.

If you�re a gun snob then RIA guns are not for you. If you�re a shooter that wants a good gun at a great price that works...then go with RIA.

Ohhh and as for what Kevin Gibson has said....I agree completely. Not just because I know him personally but because he knows guns. He is a nationally know gun writer that writes from the shooters perspective not the Gun Companies. He is practical and knowledgeable. Not to mention tolerable of some peoples obvious lack of both civility and knowledge.

James' involvment and qualifications are predictably for him, HIGHLY under-stated. James and his father have been players and participants in so many things related to the 1911 pistol. If James decides to stick around for more dialogue, you'll find he's a massive wealth of information for anything 1911, and many things not 1911.

A lotta time invested here by Kevin and James and others.

I for one appreciate all the 411; it supports what my personal hands-on experience with my own 45 ACP and 9mm RIAs has been.

Thank you, and welcome aboard, Mr. Dunn!

Noah

Thanks Kevin for the post.