Didn't buy one as currently I am spending all my "foolish money" on canoing anfishing stuff.

But there's some basic, plain jane Officer's models at the gun show that spoke to me today, for well less than $400.

Might sell off some other guns to get one next time around.

Whats the take on these? I'm recalling they are a good deal for the money.

Birdwatcher

STI sells a Spartan model that is essentially a tuned R.I. with trigger group and adjustable sights.

The sights on the G.I. model are sparse. For another $50 you can get the tactical model with faux Novaks, and beaver tail.

I probably won't own another .45acp, but would look long and hard at a R.I. or Taurus 1911 in 9mm.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=239300682

Really nothing wrong with the RI 1911's. They seem to be rather popular, reliable and accurate. For general use, they're a good buy. Just don't let "bricktop" read this![grins]

Yeah, Bricktop says they're "turds". I guess it's hard to admit you could have done well spending less.

Mine has been trouble-free since tuning the extractor early on. It does what it's supposed to. I've seen at least one that had over 30,000 rounds through it (claimed by owner, who is a bullseye shooter), and it was only recently showing signs of stress. Guess that makes it a turd, compared to better guns - but if you have no expectation of putting that many rounds through, it makes some sense for the price.

Well, if the owner made that claim and you posted it on the internet, then it must be true.

Give me a friggin' break.

My turd Rock island has been an excellent pistol for about a thousand rounds now. There is one brand of factory fodder it does not like. Every report I've read on factory service/support has been good. I haven't needed it.

They're made from soft steel. I don't have the Rockwell hardness, but they're soft compared to a Colt, Kimber, Springfield Inc., etc. Doesn't it make more sense to save your money and shop around for a better quality item? (That's a rhetorical question for the dense people.)

You posted it on the internet, therefore it just became true.

Bricktop - I'm with you on the gospel according to the Internet. It's all subjective so we operate on the law of averages and screen with a BS filter.

That makes sense, I once bought an Egyptian made Helwan, a license-built copy of a single-stack 1940's vintage Beretta once favored by the Israelis in their early years. Locked up completely before too many rounds; soft steel.



Not if the cheaper item was/is also of accepatable quality, them old Norinco 1911's f'rinstance, before Clinton shut off the pipeline.

Birdwatcher

It was understood right off the bat that the Norinco 1911s were rough, but made use of good materials. The Filipino 1911s, not so. That's the difference.

You would do well to invest in a lower-end Springfield INC. gun than flush your money down the crapper on an Armscor paperweight.

Springfield deals:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238699527
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=239451619
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=238664615
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=237854293


Yeah, the little Rock Island trolls sure did "prove" me wrong. You just can't buy a decent 1911 without dropping around a $1K. Dunces.

Don't know about the Rock Islands but you might want to consider the Springfields. I've always thought they were a good value. Mine have been anyway. I've owned a couple of the parkerized models that I bought in 1992, still have one of them. I didn't put much over a 1,000 rounds through either one, if that much but they've handled everything from 230 gr. ball to jacketed and lead hollow points, reloads and factory ammo without a problem. The guy I sold one to has shot it a lot more than I did and hasn't reported any trouble with it.

I don't recall if all of them come with the same sights but mine came with three dot fixed sights that I like a lot better than the old GI sights. I can still get a clean sight picture with them at 67 wearing bifocals.

Armscor is no different in that regard to pre-'46 (or so) Colt 1911's. The steel isn't significantly different with modern pistols, but the heat treating is. I've seen plenty of evidence of spot heat treating, and no heat treating at all, on Armscor pistols. However, so many of their pistols are parkerized now it's tough to get a read on them.

Calling Armscor pistols "junk" on the basis of metal quality is the same as calling older Colts junk, and depending on the round count, both can be true - or not.

I disagree.

Nope, they're junk. They're made from less-than-acceptable materials and they're poorly finished. For very close to the same price as an Armscor 1911, a very lightly used -- even occasionally new -- Springfield can be had. That being the case, the question begs, why on Earth would you WASTE money on something like that?

If these Armscor/Rock Island 1911s are such kick-ass pieces of machinery, then why aren't the bigger custom shops snapping them up as they did with the Norincos of 20 years ago?

No doubt the Springfield is a better pistol, but that alone doesn't make the Armscor junk. "Serviceable" is the word I would use. The vast majority of shooters won't have to worry about wearing one out.

No, the sum of Armscor's effort makes it junk.

As soon as Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, Clark Custom, and Ted Yost start building customs around Armscor products I will freely admit their 1911s have some merit. But that ain't gonna happen.

Well, since I can't be present for every round fired by anyone who claims anything about any pistol, all I can do is admit it was "claimed by the owner". Pretty much the same applies to anything I ever read on the internet or any gun rag. They are all claims by someone else that I have little, if any, chance to verify.

Your hyperbole included, Bricktop.

Since I am not and never likely to be a high-volume 1911 shooter, it makes little sense to spend the money on a 1911 that will likely outlast me and three generations. the RIA will likely outlast me already and do so reliably - and that's enough. Anything more than that is overkill that I am not presently willing to bother with. My money has other interests besides having the best 1911.

I never tell anyone that the RIA is better or even as good as a Springfield or Colt. I never suggest one as a platform for a "custom gun". It is what it is - a good pistol for someone wanting to learn the 1911 design without spending more than necessary, and a functional pistol - nothing more...nothing less.

If your friend is a top bulls-eye competitor he has at least that amount through his 1911 maybe more. When I was in the service competing in bulls-eye all the top military competitors got a new match bulls-eye 1911 every year because the 1911's were worn out. Back in the day a competitor had a softball and a hardball gun and both would be wore out in a year if one were a top competitor.

Not a "top" competitor, but an avid local one. Does that matter? Probably doesn't make any difference to BT - 'cause he needs some kind of documentation. I guess when you live in a world where everyone lies to you, it's hard to accept when someone does not, without documentation.

FreeMe: Good post, you hit the nail on the head.
Have a good 4th of July.

And he has likely never exaggerated either.

No, I just live in one where people tend to get the big eye on things, spin yarns, and bullshit themselves into believing fairy tales and urban legends. That's called the real world.

Nope. A 1,000 rounds a week for practice is normal if one wants to at least show (3rd place) in a meet.

I you paid Rob Leathman to sponsor Rock Island, I have no doubt he wouldn't miss a beat with a tuned
Filipino or Croatian pistol.

On the other hand you can put a $3k tuned pistol in most folks hands, including mine, and you would still have to practice.

Its the man not the pistol most of the time.

if the ria is junk you many rounds should it fire before it breaks.

Send me some money to buy one and I'll get back to you.

Me thinks it is you that should be buying the RIA.

That's OK. You just have to admit your faults, and since you seem to be unable to buy an RIA, your poverty is only your fault. That's OK, stick to your textbooks and remain impoverished. It will only be through fault of your own.

Biker

I'd rather piss away someone else's money on something like that than mine.

You must not have seen my question on the other post. I asked just what is the proper hardness for a 1911. I do not know thew answer and am really interested. I think Ruger started out in the single actions using half hard 4140, somewhere around 46RC. I can see where the 1911 bight want to be a little harder but I have not studied the topic and would like to know. I can have mine tested and see if it fits within the desired tolerance. Not trying to be a smart ass, really want to know.

As would I. I'd like to see a comparison of the major brands; Colt, Kimber, Springfield INC., etc.

Again, my question to you Sir or anyone else in the know is just what is the ideal hardness of a 1911? At what point does the hardness at the cost of lessened elasticity and thus brittleness become an issue.

I can't answer that question, Scott - but as I understand it, some 1911's (RIA included) are "spot-hardened" so the entire frame does not have the same hardness. It is only hardened where needed. Someone other than me can get into the drawbacks/benefits of that process.

figured as an expert you would know how many shots the weaker material can handle!!!!

How weak is the metal compared to the springfield or colt etc....???

As far as the ria having weaker material nobody is arguing with you on that And the fact there is better options for the same money.

My "expert" opinion does not come for free.

Some of this is really too funny.

RIA has had a very few instances of sub-standard heat treat on some components leading to a few isolated incidents of peening(all of which BTW were warranty replaced/repaired). To equate that with all RIA 1911's being made of "soft" material is quite a leap, especially with the evidence out there of people with access to the proper measuring equipment checking the hardness of slides and frames. The results were right in line with published specs from companies like Caspian.

If you look at the anecdotal evidence around the net(which your "expert" opinion qualifies as a part of), you'll find the overwhelming majority of Rock Island owners, or even people who have handled one, to be very positive in their comments. No, they won't win alot of beauty contest compared to pistols that cost twice as much, but they work, and if they don't, Armscorp will fix them, simple as that.

Why someone who doesn't like a particular thing has to run around bashing on it is beyond me.

Me to.

You mean like the bullshit you just posted?

Name a well-known gunsmith who will warranty any builds on a RIA. And by well-known, I don't mean your cousin down at Billy Bob's Lawn Mower Repair, Bait, & Gunz.

Why on earth would someone buy a 1911 just to have to spend more money on a gunsmith rebuild anyway?

Maybe I am missing something here but hasn't the 1911 been doing a great job of erasing bad guys for a hundred years without have every one of them sent out for rebuild?

And why do you have to send one to a big named gunsmith? Is everyone too stupid of lazy to do good work yourself?

Aren't there people out there who just want a reliable carry handgun for everyday use?

Why on Earth would anyone buy something that required a lot of work? Like a RIA.

Show me one thing I posted that is bullshit. And what the hell has that silly crap about custom smiths got to do with anything? Name one custom gun smith that offers a well functioning 1911 for under 5 bills. Those guys don't have any NEED to try to keep their costs down. When you're spending 3, 4, whatever thousand on a 1911, what difference would a couple hundred bucks on the initial GI model make? The Rock Island wan't ever intended to compete in that market.

And while we're at it, show me the Springfield with extended beavertail, ambi-safety, skeletonized hammer and trigger, novak-type sights, full length guide rod, and a rather nice matte nickel finish for under 5 bills. Oh, that's right, there AREN'T ANY. I bought a Tac model in matte nickel, and it came factory with all that stuff, brand new, and it works perfectly well, and was right at 500 shipped to my FFL. My local gun market has several shops, but none had anything even remotely competitive with that, used or otherwise.

In spite of your personal disdain for the company, RIA serves a market for guys like me. Guys that have never owned a 1911, but want to get the feel for one without breaking the bank, or want a second, or even a third 1911 for beater use. I personally will probably pony up for a pistol with more re-sale value, just to see what the Cadillac type pistols have to offer, but I'm keeping my RIA, simply because it's a good looking tool, that works.

And as far RIA's working, I'm coming up on 2k rounds through mine, and other than a fluff and buff when I first got it to make it feed HP's, it's been flawless. No work done to it at all other than put some different grips on it.

Like loading it and shooting it? That is all I have done to mine. What other work is required? I must be missing something.

Your entire post. What did you post that was NOT "anecdotal?"

That's what is called a LITMUS TEST. It is defined as "a crucial and revealing test in which there is one decisive factor." Next question, numbnuts.

So does Golden Corral. You remind me of Randy Quaid in Vacation: "I don't know why they call this stuff 'Hamburger Helper.' It does just fine all by itself."

I am trying to find out why you would buy a new anything then send it out to have it rebuilt.

I bought a double bit axe a while back. Maybe I should have sent it out for a thousand dollar rebuild but I just used it. Same with my wedges and sledge. I just used them to cut my firewood. Perhaps they will not really cut wood without a beaver tail handle or skeleton heads but somehow my wood pile lasted me through the winter. Bought myself a coffee cup too. Does it need to go to the cupsmith for custom work before it will hold coffee? Gosh, a thousand dollar bill from the cupsmith will be pretty hard to handle.

Now that I am thinking about it I have a brick of primers. Do I have to send them out one at a time to the primersmith before I can sue them?

Apparently so.

As opposed to your "concrete" evidence...oh wait, your opinion is your evidence, although anyone else's experience or opinion is meaningless. Nevermind. According to you, if a firearm isn't the basis for a 4k custom build, it's a POS. Got it.

As to my post, I related information from the 1911 forums, from guys that have no reason to lie, as well as my own personal experience which mirrors that of many other RIA owners. If you are trying to say I'm BS'ing about my own experience with my own gun, prove it. Otherwise you're doing exactly what you accuse others of.

The personal attacks I won't get into with you. You don't know anything about me. Your lowest common denominator approach to deflective humor is more than a little bit tired. If you can't at least try to be civil in supporting your position I have no use for you. I can guarantee you wouldn't pop chit like that off to my face. Everyone is a superhero on the internet.

The please Sir, enlighten me. I may be old but I can still learn.

Mostly yours.

Color me convinced!!!!

I know you're a lowbrow sort of guy who considers paintings of dogs playing poker and donkey basketball high art. That pretty well sums it up for me and colors any possible interaction I'll have with you and your ilk.

Scott, I'm still trying to figure out what a guarantee by a top 1911 'smith has go to do with a factory made tool, that is backed by the factory that made it if it breaks, EVER. It's like saying a stock Chevy truck is crap because a Ferrari race team won't guarantee it.

He's comparing the longevity of a 3k custom race gun to a $500 tool that guys like us might put 10k rounds though in 15 years.

It's not even apples to oranges, it's like apples to submarines.

Ha, as opposed to your personal attack, disconnected ravings about people you don't know? Wow, that's true class. I'm impressed. I'll just hang out with my lowbrow friends.

It's more like I'm talking chess games and you two rubes are playing "Candyland."

If your exalted RIA zip guns are of the quality that no self-respecting gunsmith will guarantee any sort of build work on one, exactly what does that say about your little zip gun's quality?

And I doubt you could afford 10K rounds of anything let alone count that high.

Don't need to make a personal attack. I just post what I've observed.

Answer this: if I send a RIA to Clark or Ted Yost and they say we'll work on it, but we're not guaranteeing any of that work, yet they're more than willing to offer a warranty on that same work as performed on a Kimber, Norinco, Springfield INC., Colt, etc. what does that say?

Here is what I know. I bought it because it was available for what I had. If I could have afforded a good Colt I would have purchased the Colt. Lots of guys like Kimbers but there are lots of guys who about gave up on them because there would not shoot and were not reliable. Not sure what the percentages would be on Kimbers but it sure scared me off.

The RIA looked like a working man's tool and it followed me home. I am somewhere around 1200 or so rounds into this one. The only mishap with it was a problem with a reload. My fault not the guns. Other that that one no fail to feed, no fail to eject. It has done everything I asked it to do every time I asked. Not sure how much better than "every time" you can get.

Here you go Mr. Bricktop.

http://rockislandarmory.com/

I don't think most of us want to send a 1911 to a top gunsmith but sometimes you have to to make it work. Quality control has improved immensely now that their are so many custom and semi-custom clones out there. Something that was not available 20 to 30 years ago.

I send my 1911 to a top gunsmith because I don't have the ability to fix anything certainly not on a gun.

I buy the best fancy top of the line 1911 that I can afford because for my needs of target shooting, hunting, with self-defense a distance third, only the top line 1911's will do. A run of the mill RIA won't do it. However, for your needs a RIA that shoots good right-out-of-the-box is all you need.

I agree on the Kimbers. I'd say it's 50/50 on the Kimbers from my observations. People who have had problems say customer service is terrible. Kimbers scare me.

I'm thinking seriously about a RIA now that Mr. Bricktop has recommended them.

I have had a Kimber Stainless Pro Carry since 94 or 95, hard to remember what year they first came out but mine is a 3 digit serial#, original 1911 trigger(pre series 70)and have had flawless results from it. I sent it back to the Kimber Custom Shop about 10 years ago for a 10,000 round inspection and tune up ( but then I could afford to do that). Customer Service was great, any time I need something, they send it.

Now as far as Scott, I have been in his shoes, when ya need a gun and cant afford a kimber or whatever an RIA would have to do. What ever is or is not wrong with it can be fixed. And as far as quality, or that John Browning would be rolling in his grave due to POOR QUALITY MATERIALS is a bunch of Horse [bleep].

I own one that was made by Colt in 1924 (military model), and believe me the quality is definately not what it is today. Does loose as a goose, and couldnt hit the broadside of a barn at 25 ft sound familiar. I really think he (JMB) would be amazed at what people have done to improve and modify his design.

Now as far as whoever numb-nuts, Bricktop calls custom 45 Smiths, I say call Bill Laughridge at Cylinder and Slide in Fremont Neb. if you want THE BEST 45 smith in the country (but ya have to be able to afford him) 5000.00 bucks a pop for a true to god repro 1911.

Buy what ya can afford, enjoy it, shoot the begeezers out of it and [bleep] them who dont like it. Especially Super Snobs like BRICKBITCH.

Swifty

scott:
last weekend i was shooting some reloads done by a friend of mine about 30years ago. 4.6grains of bullseye behind a 200gr swc. Used a norinco slightly modified that i switched back from using as a .460rowland, a 1944 remington that had been tweaked with competition sights bushing etc, and a really tweaked colt gold cup. I was more interested in the loads functioning but i was shooting at 12guage casings at up to 25yards or so. Commented to the guy next to me that i was hitting them just as easy with the norinco as the tweaked gun. Use to shoot that norinco with a guy that had a gold cup at the time, and usually outshot him.
Now granted a lower end gun might not do 75k rounds, but guess what, a lot of top end guns probably won't either.
Personally i would rather have a slightly sloppy 1911 that i knew was 100% reliable than a tweaked one that wasn't in a life or death situation.
I might add in my own opinion colt's quality changed through the years, some good, some bad.
just because it has the dancing pony on it don't make it real

might add another thing. You hear about WWII 1911's being loose as a goose. The one i was shooting was i am sure one of those 27dollar guns sold/disposed of through the nra many years ago.
The guy who owned it at the time was a nationally ranked hi power shooter at camp perry. He switched out the sights to those being used in the military national match pistols, custom fit a bushing, and had about four barrels four it. He was also sizing to .454 on the lead slugs. I had to squeeze them down to make them work in other pistols. That old army pistol locks up tighter than a drum and i am sure it will stay right with some of those high dollar toys people like to buy.

might add another thing since i am on a roll. I think often people pay a lot more on a gun than they are actually capable of shooting to it's capability.

That's a good quote.

I thought so too.

Now you've stepped squarely into BSland.

Even the base-model RIA does not "require a lot of work". It may not have the bells & whistles you think it should have, but that doesn't mean it requires anything.

Might ask what it says about the gunsmith. He'd look kinda silly in the eyes of a fool with $4000 to blow on a gun that won't do $3700 worth of something the $300 gun will not do. Said fool might wonder about the whole business...if he got to thinkin'.

Seriously - those top gunsmiths don't want to waste their time on anybody who's looking to save money. By excluding (or dissing) an inexpensive gun like the RIA, they can weed out a bunch of those people (many of them with guns other than the RIA) and keep them from clogging up their in-box. Is it that hard for you to grasp that concept? The undertone (which is reasonable, BTW) that is there for all to see is "don't waste my time if you don't have deep pockets".

And on that note, anybody who spends $3700 on a handgun that is strictly for pleasure while his kids eat at McD's and his wife drives a 20 year-old car is, in my book, a fool.

Saw another piece of Filipino [bleep] at the local Emporium the other day. It felt nice and solid.
It was an ATI Government model made by RIA's competitor S.A.M. I understand that they
use bar stock for their slides with a cast frame. For $400 they are also worth a try.

Love the beginning of this clip.

Just curious how many here have had any interaction with smiths such as Yost, Hoag, Garthwaite, Christiansen, or any other of the top smiths in the business?

I have a real nice Nighthawk catalog I read in the john.

I have no dog in this fight, however, it has been related to me that some handgun smiths that specialize in the 1911 will not attempt to customize some particular guns because they are out of spec for the particular parts the smith likes to use. The holes and pins, ect. aren't exactly in the right place or slightly out of dimension compared to the standards of the 1911 as it was designed or as certain aftermarket parts are produced. That is a headache for the smith trying to match parts up or modify them to work if the gun is out of specification. At least that's what I've been told in the past... I dunno.

I sure would not spend $3.5K plus pistol and wait several years to have one of the name smiths work over a RIA. I would not want to spend any additional money on a RIA except for springs and magazines. If it proved worthy then maybe a trigger job from a local smith.

My one and only 1911 currently is a custom Delta Elite by D.R. Middlebrooks. Traded a like new Colt .38 Super Lite stright up for it 10 years ago. Nicely executed, but I would not have paid for the high cut grip, beveled slide, and various serrations.

Do you own any 1911's that are of dubious quality, but shoot surprisingly well?

After owning 20 1911's I am primarily a Colt or Baer guy, and think in their respective price ranges, they have the best batting average. I have owned several Colts made in the last 10-15 years, and really can't think of any of them that I would call a bad gun. The Colts from the 80's and early 90's? ummm....some did did have problems, some minor, some not so minor

The Springfield Mil-Spec guns seem to be fit a little looser than their "loaded" or "custom" models, and a more reliable, too. I had a .38 Super Mil-Spec and the silly thing would even run with anemic .38 ACP ammo. These are more expensive than the Rock Islands, but less than Colts or Kimbers.

Kimber's batting average seems to be about 40% problems. I do have a 10mm Target model, and it's pretty good, but not as reliable as my Colt 10mm's.

S&W and Sig are getting good buzz on their guns. I saw a Commander-size Sig 1911 this weekend - night sights, checkered front strap, $900. For those features, that's a pretty good buy.

The Norinco 1911's had a decent reputation, so it's certainly possible that RIA's run well, too. Honestly, I think if you use a good magazine, tune the extractor correctly, hit the major dimensions, and don't fit them too tight, it's not that hard to make a reliable 1911.

Another good buy for a shooter 1911 is a Sistema, the 1911A1 copies made in Argentina. They ARE 1911A1, mil spec guns in every sense of the name, and often have very attractive rollmarks on their slides, for what that's worth. Most I have seen have been carried (or stored in desk drawers) more than shot.

Nope, but I think you've stepped into fantasy land if you think a RIA is anything beyond a plinking gun at best.

You're just about as dumb as a f*cking brick. "Top gunsmiths" have incentive (get someone to explain "incentive" to you, little man) get their customers into a low up front price so they can pad the back end of a deal. Maybe you should get someone to explain that to you, because it's sure as hell obvious that you've probably never had the temerity to even have priced out -- let alone afford -- the services of a custom gunsmith for anything beyond nickel plating your trusty Hi Point.

I suppose the "McD's" -- I guess that's some kind of metrosexual/ebonics hipster bullshit for McDonald's, the choice of the better-dressed morbidly obese everywhere -- wife driving the beater must be drawn from your own experience. Your low-rent posts certainly point in that direction.

Since this seems to be a repeating pattern of failure to read, comprehend, and THEN post, allow me to reiterate. The Norinco was made from GOOD materials with proper hardness, that offered the ability to be machined. This is where the Filipino RIAs fall short. If the RIA was made from materials that could be reasonably welded without risk of cracking or peening, any "out of spec" holes wouldn't be of much consequence.

RIA: the Hi Point of 1911s.

Finally got to see all the clip. Looks like that el cheapo 1911 seems to do everything that is required of it.

Nope, BT - I never put my wife in a beater. Neither have I required her to work to pad my toy budget. I suspect that's more your style. If your reading comprehension was as good as your insult vocabulary, you might have caught on to that.

I have two RIA 1911s, both the 5" "Govt Model" clones with phosphate finish, one in 45 ACP and the other in 9mm. They aren't exactly M1911A1 clones because some details are different.

The 45 ACP version I bought used for $290 out the door. Using nothing but CMC Shooting Star mags I've put 1100 rounds of 230 gr FMJ reloads through this RIA in 2-1/2 years, and it has yet to fail to feed, fire, or eject. The only thing I did to it was tweak the extractor to stop the empties from hitting me on the head. As for accuracy, I can bust claybirds sitting prpped up on edge on the 25 yard berm, 7 or 8 for 8, each mag, if I'm doing my part.

Is it in the same class as a $3500 race gun? Not by $3200. Is it a great value in a plinker? I think so.

I liked the 45 ACP version so much I bought one in 9mm because I love the 1911 in 9mm. I have two other 9mm 1911s, a Series 70 Mk IV and an early 60s Lightweight Commander with the brown plastic grips and turning-plum colored slide. All three of the 9mm 1911s will also bust the 25 yd claybirds with boring repeatability. The RIA has 819 rds through it as of last weekend. Again, no failure of any kind, except for the slide fails to stay locked open with the SS Pachmayr 9mm mags. With Mecgar and Colt mags the slide locks back every time.

I own 12 different 1911s and clones at the moment, and for an inexpensive, apparently reliable plinker the RIA fits the bill in my opinion. I don't really care that top-drawer race gun builders don't use the RIA frame as a platform, because that doesn't really mean that much to me. They may use Norinco 1911s among others, but they didn't at first "back in the day." I was "present at the creation" in the late 80s and early 90s when the Norc 1911s first saw the light of day in the US, and there was much wailing and knashing of teeth w.r.t. "cheap Chinese junk" until someone tried to customize one and discovered their almost too-hard hardness. Lots of people in the 1911 community then quietly ate crow and started buying up $289 Norc 1911s.

Spot hardening is done because it imparts hardness and wear resistance at the localized points of high loading, leaving the rest of the slide/frame in a tougher, lower hardness state. The alternative is to harden the entire frame/slide but that can lead to brittleness.

I love the 1911. It stems from shooting my uncle's Colt back in the 60s when I was in late grade school, and as a 2111 (Small Arms Repairman) in the USMC/USMCR from '72 to '86. I've personally owned probably 30 or 35 different 1911s since the late 70s. I've worked on hundreds of M1911A1s in various stages of repair and disrepair that saw at the time around 30-35 years of use in a number of wars and conflicts. The 1911 may have it's (well-known) foibles but IMO the intrinsic design is brilliant.

IMO, the shift to modern manufacturing techniques including CMC machining and PLC-controlled heat treating and finishing processes has enable manufacturers to turn out a product that is much more in tolerance using little or no skilled labor. The days of the hand-fit firearm are on advanced life support; the hand-fit handgun manufacturers now have names like Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Performance Center, and Custom Shop. A CNC-produced product like the RIA or the Springfield "Mil-Spec" allows 1911 enthusiasts to acquire affordable weapons for now-and-again weekend plinking or just-in-case home defense.

JMO. The RIA "is what it is," fills a niche, can't be all things to everybody, and as such works for me.

Noah

A couple comments:

Norincos were decent pistols as is, and very good pistols after gunsmiths threw everything away but the frame and slide.

Spot hardening was done on Colts because they had yet to solve the problem of part warping and/or shrinking. Nowadays the only reason a manufacturer would spot treat is that it's cheaper or they don't know how.

Very good post. The Norinco was quite a pistol until Clinton banned their importation.

I wonder if you could expand on what sort of welding is needed on these guns, to support your assertion of "reasonably welded without risk of cracking or peening".

Hey Bricktop,

Also, could you comment on the metallurgical quality differences between a Taurus 1911 and a Springfield 1911?

excellent post by the way and i agree with you. One thing tho.
When I bought my norinco, i bought the phosphate version finish and paid about 219dollars for it as i remember. Had people laugh at me for shooting it for years. Except it has always run right

Excellent point. Everything is cost driven. I tell my employees that our customers generally buy from us because we're good guys; thye buy from us because we offer competitive pricing.

For a manufactured product, in order to keep an MSRP at a low target, costs have to be controlled. One way to do that is to only perform those operations necessary to get the job done, and perform those operations as efficiently as possible.

Noah

I see Brick isn't willing to get into specifics.

While the cast frame 1911's are technically metallurgically inferior to forged frame 1911's, where the rubber meets the road, it really doesn't matter. The RIA is softer than some, and harder than others. Still, the hardness of the RIA frame is more than sufficient. The RIA slides are VERY good, being made from Extruded Powder Sintering, which is a process that produces steel hard enough to make ball bearings.

I personally know people who have done hardness testing on the RIA's and they typically fall in the RC 29-35 range, which is where you find most 1911 frames (some softer, some harder).

But understand, there is more to the story than just hardness, and hardness isn't the ONLY reason that top gunsmiths choose not to work on the RIA's.

The proof is in the puddin though. While you may not find many RIA's in the hands of winners at the world class IPSC competitions, you will find oodles of them in the hands of your typical shooter, serving perfectly...and at the end of the day, that's what most need.

Just becuase the gun may not be the best choice for a top notch competition level build, doesn't mean it's not junk. There are a LOT of pistols that don't qualify for top level competition guns, yet no one's calling them junk.

Bricktop may not care for them, and he's voiced his opinion. But don't let his coarse nature fool you, that's his OPINION; and his opinion isn't necessarily fact.

I'd be happy to have Bricktop answer my previous two questions to see if he can enlighten us all on what is sufficient hardness, what is optimal and what is too hard; and what happens when the hardening isn't right.

Fixed your typo, Kevin...........but you make numerous very good points.

MM

MM,

OOps...Thanks. Kinda kills my own point with that one typo.

Well, FWIW, I had one of these and they were very nice, and shot well too. Only thing I did not care for is that it was all steel and brick-ass heavy

You're right, I was assuming far too much to draw a conclusion that you were in more than an hourly or otherwise contractual relationship with a real, live female. Dunce.

I seem to recall the subject of this discussion was [bleep] Filipino-made 1911s, was it not? And I'm pretty sure the Taurus and Springfield 1911s are neither made in the Philippines or the same hemisphere or continent as the Rock Island paperweights, are they not? Think about that before you commit yourself to a response.

Your feeble attempt at a petty insult aside, my statements are far from opinion. The Rock Island-branded 1911s aren't made from the same quality materials as Colt, Springfield INC., Taurus, etc. Yes, the truth is a sometimes painful animal and you'll someday learn to deal with it when you decide your agoraphobia no longer grips your psyche and you're able to venture outside of your little virtual world where dozens of like-minded socially inept internet geeks lap up your every word as posted on your little blog -- and trust me, it is little -- but the only thing that separates a Rock Island 1911 from a Hi Point is its design. Read it and WEEP.

Thread HIjack alert!! Bricktop AND Kevin, I am looking for a non brick-ass weight and keep coming back to a 36 oz STI Trojan. The Kimber Super Pro Custom may still be in the running too. I have smaller hands and the grips are thin and fits great on both. Was first (and still) thinking of another commander sized but all steel. Looking for something just a little beefier than my Pro Carry - but without the klunk of a 40oz 5".

So the Southern Hemisphere produces better 1911's than the Northern Hemisphere?

There, that's better....now I'm laughin' again. You were slippin' there for a minute...

Hmmm. Could be.

I am going to try and keep this on subject - go look for a Star PD. Great gun and light to boot

RIA makes a 4" 1911.....
HERE

Okay, that was a cute little response laced with more of your profane opinions and nothing of actual substance. Rock Island guns are actually HARDER than some of the guns you mentioned; were you aware of that? So rather than just throw more of your sensationalistic BS, why don't you tell us why hardness is so important. And why, when a RIA's hardness falls right smack in the middle of the hardness scale of the list of guns you mention, the RIA is still a POS? You can take all the pot shots you want at me, I really don't give a rats... But I challenge you to add something of technical significance to support your assertion that RIA is both SOFT and a POS. And sorry, but this gunsmith/that gunsmith doesn't answer THAT specific question; but I doubt your technical savvy is sufficient to realize that.

Kimber sucks.....

I'd buy a Rock Island Armory 1911 if I felt the need, but the 1911 I am waiting to add to my gun collection is a Union Switch and Signal....I really set my standards high.

amen to that!

Got proof of that? Proof that didn't come from Wikipedia? No? Too bad.

Again, your petty little attempt at an insult aside, I seem to recall the barrel in a 1911 having locking lugs that lock into a set of lugs in the slide, do they not? Nod your head yes if you can understand. Okay? Good. I seem to remember the lugs lock up metal-to-metal, do they not? That's also a rhetorical question for which the answer is "yes," is it not? Okay, let's keep moving if you understand that. There's this curious thing known as "cyclic stress." Savvy? Cyclic stress is caused by fluctuating mechanical loads or thermal stresses that can cause materials to fail at loads below stress levels that would cause failure under static loading of the materials. That would be a BAD thing if a slide or other moving part failed, would it not? Nod your head yes. Good. And when that failure on a RIA can occur at an endurance limit below what is considered normal for other 1911s, that would lead to the conclusion that a RIA was not made from materials as strong as other 1911s, would it not? Again, nod your head yes.

That's strictly some horseshit you got from Wikipedia.

Actually, you DO, hence your continued ham-handed responses.

Already offered my explanation, I'm still waiting on yours -- beyond your petty attempts at insults trying to defend your pals in the People of Wal-Mart club.

Bricktop, in all sincerity I think a lot of us here would like to know exactly how hard the RI's are and where they fall on some sort of continuum with other popular brands. Seems as if the onus is on you in order to back up what you're saying since you brought it up.

Seems as if the onus is on anyone who wishes to disprove my statements as well. All I've seen thus far is a hell of a lot of petty BULLSHIT and no discussion of any substance. Like your post, for example.

If these Rock Island-branded 1911s are so f*cking KICK-ASS, then why don't any of these more prominent 1911 pistolsmiths have the confidence to offer any guarantee on anything built on one? I mean, if they're so GOD-ALMIGHTY GOOD, then why aren't they considered for anything more than just a crude plinker? Huh? Why is that? Got any explanation for that?

Not being a prominent 1911 pistolsmith I don't have an answer, but as a former 2111 (Small Arms Repairman) in the USMC and USMCR from '72 to '86 I sort of know my way around 1911s.

I'm not sure use by custom 1911 builders is an appropriate exclusive and definitive criterion for determining if RIA 1911s are "good" or not. I do recall "back in the day" that it took a number of years for the Norinco 1911 to catch on as a viable platform for building up custom 1911s; there was a considerable "Commie junk!" sentiment when the Norc 1911s first arrived in the US in the late 80s. It took time for acceptance for the Norc, and perhaps time will tell with the RIAs.



IMO, I wouldn't necessarily invoke the Almighty w.r.t. the quality of RIA 1911s. IMO and experience with my own phosphated 5" RIA 45 and 9mm 1911, I characterize the RIA product as a low-cost "entry level" 1911 that happens to be an excellent value for the money. This is based on both of my guns being fairly "tight", both having consistent creep-free trigger pulls between 3lb and 4lb using my Lyman digital trigger pull gage, both guns' consistent failure-free operation using 230 FMJ factory ammo, and reloads topped by 230 RN or plated 230 RN bullets, and both guns' ability to consistently break standard claybirds propped up on edge at the 25 yard berm. That's not only me, but others shooting my RIAs can also do the same.

Sure, it's a cast frame and a sintered powdered metal slide (the same can be said of select pistols made by Kahr, Springfield, Ruger, and several others) but the consistent performance of my RIAs and those of others who report similar results and performance are IMO indicative of an effective and consistent low-cost manufacturing process using computer-controlled modern methods. The result is what it is, a low-cost entry-level 1911 that is competitive in both performance and price with its peers in a highly saturated market, and I include the low-end Springfields in that peer group. I eventually sold the three Springer "Mil-Spec" 1911s I owned over a four-year period, but that's another story. Suffice to say that they were not as consistent as my RIAs are, either out of the box or after I tweaked them.

I have a calibrated Wilson Rockwell 3JR hardness tester at work. It has both "B" scale ball indenters and "C" scale Brale diamond indenters. It might be time to take the RIAs and a couple Colts and maybe a Norc to work with me . . .

Noah

lmao You're just talking out your asss then. All blow and no go. YOU'RE the one who is claiming that Rock Island's are soft. YOU'RE the one who should put up or shut up. You usually present decent info but it looks like you're just braying like a talking assshole here. Put up or stfu.

You're a [bleep] joke if you can't back up what you said. Put up or stfu.

I'll wager that the Norinco is the hardest

Not really, they were only imported for a few years. I remember Jim Clark, Sr. stating favorable things with regard to the Norinco in the 1993-94 time frame.

And my "detractors" are claiming otherwise. I've stated my reasoning and I'm waiting on an explanation from the other side. Can you understand that?

Already offered a couple of explanations. Get someone to read them since you can't.

And find some better "logic."

We're saying the same thing -- '88-'89 to '93-'94 is ~5 years. Acceptance wasn't immediate / overnight. Tainting the Norc 1911 was the then-known fact that the Norc version of the M1A has hit-or-miss bolt hardness; the 1911 was tarred with the same brush until word got out in print media in those pre-Interwebz days.

Noah

Because some pistolsmith won't offer a warranty, you've extrapolated all sorts of stuff from that, including metallurgical fitness of the gun. This is your "better logic" Because some un-named gunsmith said something in the negative.

So let's lay it out there. Are you a gunsmith? Have you ever built a 1911? Have you ever built a competition 1911? Have you worked with more than 5 different makes of frames? Can you tell me the most common issues a pistolsmith runs into when building 1911's? Can you tell me why a pistolsmith would recommend a frame of a certain hardness for a competition gun, but a different hardness for a carry gun?

You talked about welding, but when I asked you what kind of welding a gunsmith would do, you had nothing. Are you a certified welder? Have YOU ever welded on a gun? Do you know anything about welding high carbon steels? Do you know what to watch out for when welding a cast frame vs. a forged frame. Or welding a Stainless frame?

Can you answer those questions? And if not, you care to explain how you're qualified to speak to the issue of the metallurgical quality of a RIA? Are you still on the "because some gunsmith won't warranty work on a RIA?" Is that really all you got?

So you're borrowing the credibility of "some" gunsmith without even saying who that gunsmith is. Then, you're extrapolating metallurgical knowledge from that borrowed credibility of some un-named gunsmith.

Look...EVERYONE here can Google-Fu the sites of those same gunsmiths. When someone asks a question, they're looking for direct knowledge and experience. Do you have DIRECT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH A ROCK ISLAND PISTOL. Do you have sufficient direct knoledge of RIA's to put a blanket condemnation on ALL RIA's? (remember, EVERYONE makes lemons from time to time)

Other than a foul mouth and sharp wit, what do you bring to the table Bricktop?

Inquiring minds DO want to know......

You're a joke if you can't back up what you say assclown. Wearing clownface on your asss while braying out of it. Put up some proof.

His wits ain't that sharp. He's been getting a pass from some of us for quite some time now due to the amusement factor. He just stepped in some shixt though.

Do you have anything -- ANYTHING AT ALL -- to bolster your argument in favor of RIA 1911s other than this bullshit of "I think it's a good value, therefore you don't know what you're talking about?" Because that's all I've seen.

guess that shows direct knowledge and experience

~sounds of crickets chirping and Jeopardy theme music~

Only one post from him today---------his Google Fu must be weak.

Bricktop decided to run his mouth about something he evidently knew nothing about. If he had any evidence that what he was saying was right, he'd have posted it. Personally, I think a person could argue til the cows come home about why certain "upscale" pistolsmiths won't warrant work on RI's, but if they are of soft steel, there should be some evidence of it. Since Bricktop brought it up and won't let it go, he should be the one to bring the evidence, or be outed as a common Anusjester.

I certainly have more to offer, like I said; I�ve known the original importer of Rock Island Armory guns for years�I have much more to offer. But let�s not forget YOU started this dance, the accountability is YOURS first. YOU are the one who came out swinging against the RIA. So just as soon as you put up, I�ll make my case. If all you have is the �my favorite gunsmith says so� thing, then just say so. I�m thinking that�s probably all you have.

You can choose to just dig your heels in and be a jerk, or you can pipe up and learn something here; the choice is yours. So if you�ve said all you have to say on the subject, then we�ll note that as so; then I�ll educate you as to how I know what you say is NOT true.

lmao@bricktop

I'm going to be a nice guy and mention no one.

Hey, as an aside, I recently sold my RIA Tactical 'cause I bought a used Kimber Custom Target II. My impression is that the Kimber is a good bith 'tighter' as to fit, especially in takedown for cleaning, and has a nicer finish, and almost any grips are better than the RIA, BUT, that said, the RIA is a nice gun - I sold it to my coworker that is my Thai-Food-lunch-bud, and so I am not going to sell him something that is crap. Both shoot VERY well, but the Kimber does out shoot it, but not by a whole lot.
If I had kept the RIA (which I was perfectly willing to do, until the Kimber came along), or more correctly for this argument, had I bought one new, I would replace the grips, duracoat it, and spend some cash-ola on ammo to break it in...and be good with it. if you get a Tactical model, it comes with all the other features that you would want. i might replace the spring with a very slightly stronger one, as the one that comes with it seems to push the slide forward a bit more leisurely than I would prefer, but that is conjecture only, I& I could be dead wrong there

FWIW...I had one of the "officers" type models and liked it alot, but had to sell it when the wifey had surgery. It was brick-ass heavy, but due to what I think was the same spring as the original, which was naturally compressed a bit more due to the smaller slide, the gun seemed to take less long to break in, hence the spring-thing above.

Yeah, I am holding on to my Kimber, but that ain't nuttin' wrong with RIA......except some others perception of them, and that has little to do with the gun.

My RIA costed $300. It goes "bang!" every time I pull the trigger, assuming it's loaded, and leaves a 45 caliber hole wherever it was pointed when the trigger was pulled. That's pretty much all I'm looking for in a $300-$400 pistol.

Here is they compact model I had

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=241431562

Paid $385 or $410 for it IIRC, I bought the tactical and the compact same time, so that is the cost for each, fer-git which is which

Post #1 to dispell the myth.

A note to Bricktop and those who are like him. I�ve taken a LOT of time to come up with these posts to educate you on this subject in the hopes you'll understand that you've read WAY too much into something, and have drawn the wrong conclusions. It is my hope that you will appreciate it and say thanks, rather than just call me an a-hole again.

Why won�t big name gunsmith�s work on RIA�s?

First, many will, but some wont. And like Bricktop said, some won�t warranty their work. So let�s address those issues. Now, I don�t know the specific policies of these gunsmiths because I�M NOT THEM. But I�ve been (and remain) and gunsmith, I know many gunsmiths in the business, so I�m covering this from the perspective of someone who has insight into the work, and the business practices of gunsmithing.

Top gunsmiths have their reputation; that is their one stock in trade in this business. If they are good gunsmiths, they have all the work they can ever handle. So let�s start the list:

Section 1: Marketing, Business Practice, Branding

- Some just don�t want their name on anything but the most well known and respected guns. This says nothing about other guns being �junk�. This is about branding, and marketing; pure and simple.
- Some also use that as a way to weed out those who are looking to �low bid� their work. By not allowing the lower cost guns, you begin with the expectation that we�re talking �Best Quality� from the get go; and we assume you�re willing to pay what it costs for top quality gunsmithing.
- Some do it just to reduce the amount of customers that want them to work on, or build up their guns. Like I said, a good gunsmith has all the work he can handle, and he�s always looking for a way to turn people away because he�s worried about doing the work he already has.

Section 2: Mechanical

- There are some gunsmiths who have tried working on a given product and had a bad experience.
- There are some 1911�s (mostly older �non-Colt�s commercial) that truly are junk guns.

Section 2: Warranty

- The rail job: Top 1911 builders more often than not, build what I call the �whole enchilada� gun. This is a fully custom gun and includes the high cost, low return fitting of the slide/frame rails. When you fit slide/frame rails, it�s not a good idea to do that procedure on a cast frame no matter how good that cast frame may be, because it will never last as long as the top quality forged frame. A rail job takes a LOT of pain staking work and it�s a job we all hate doing. A rail job is something that will also wear before most anything else will. And if that very expensive rail job doesn�t last a long time, it can give the builder a bad reputation. This is why you either will do, but won�t warranty, or the smarter move of; just won�t do it on a cast frame gun.

- But it should be known that most top gunsmiths won�t recommend doing a rail job on a forged GI military 1911 because, the metal is softer than post-war Colt�s and most modern 1911�s. Even many current cast 1911�s are harder than pre-war GI 1911�s, but a cast frame will always have an inferior crystal grain structure, which will cause a rail job to not last as long. 99.9% of the time THAT�s the part that these top gunsmith�s �won�t warranty�.

Section 4: Aesthetics

- When you spend 5k on a custom gun, it better LOOK like a 5k custom gun.
- Outside receiver shaping, a lesser quality cast frame can be mechanically perfect, but aesthetically �wrong�.
- Imperfections in casting can make subtle changes to the shape of the receiver.
- The finger relief �dimples� behind the trigger is a place where it�s common to find serious imperfections such as inconsistent shape and size.
- Budget 1911 makers simply spend less times making sure the �lines� are all perfect
- Rounded then flat are around the dust cover � Budget makers often don�t have the �line� at the flat section perfectly straight. Gunsmith will have to spend file time fixing this�if he�s building a package (and most do), this time comes out of his profit.
- It�s just easier to begin with a top quality receiver. And it should be known, even the best will still have aesthetic issues to be addressed, they�ll just have much less to deal with on average (but not always).


With the exception of section 2, none of these issues means a given gun/receiver is actually �junk�. Truly there are junk guns, but we haven�t seen true junk class 1911�s for a while. A RIA truly is a budget cast 1911 that is technically very good, but aesthetically not as nice, and at the end of the day, it�s a cast receiver which is 100% good and appropriate for ANY self defense purpose, including military service. But being that it is more likely to have aesthetic issues that will need to be fixed at the cost of the gunsmith, and not a forged receiver for maintaining that very expensive rail job; it is not a good choice for a fully custom, big dollar build. I hope everyone can see the difference.

More to come...

Good Day All....I have just got thru reading all these posts on this subject....interesting...first who I am .....

My name is James Dunn. I live in Sacramento, CA. I have been involved with 1911's literally all my life. My family has had a 1911 parts business since the mid 1960's. I currently still sell 1911 parts at local gunshows and on EBAY to help support my gun and ammo habit.

I built my first 1911 at age 12 and now at 48 I still build, shoot, and carry 1911's all the time. My shooting has slowed down lately and I only get to shoot 1-2k per month now thru 1911's. It is not a casual thing with me.

I worked for the first importer of these guns. I was the guy who did all the inspection, testing and spec checking on these guns. When speaking of this gun I feel I can speak with some authority here. The comments that Bricktop has stated are in my opinion completely without fact.

I carry a RIA today and trust my life and the life of my family to it. Given that own dozens of 1911's that should speak well in and of itself.

We torture tested the RIA guns. We did so by first installing lightweight springs then firing. There was a 5K test with the last 1K being hot loads that was very telling. We first put a 10lb recoil spring into a random picked gun. We did that to immulate the wear and tear of 12-15K rounds in just 5K. Then fired it over a 2 day period (would of been just one day but I had to make my daughters play) stopping only for cleaning every 1K. The last 1k of hot ammo caused my hand to hurt but the gun never faltered. NEVER.

After the shooting we took the gun apart and inspected. The recoil spring guide was toast. It took one hell of a beating but was still functional. The slide and frame showed no penning or cracks. The barrel lugs were still sharp and not dinged up, same with the locking grooves in the slide.

If the guns were as soft as bricktop says�there would have been massive penning or cracks and they were none. When I decide to carry a gun it gets a min of 2k thru it in the worst conditions I can provide. RIA have never failed test. Now of course some might say my experience is antidotal at best but after nearly 10 years experience with the guns I doubt that. Just my 2 cents worth.

JamesDunn,

Welcome to the 'fire and thanks for throwing in your first hand experience on the subject. Hope you enjoy this place - it's a great resource as long as you don't let people get under your skin.

Next post...

Aesthetics and �forged� aside, how I know RIA�s are good guns:


My direct, first hand experience & knowledge: I�m no longer a gunsmith by trade, but I still build guns for myself and my friends. I have built custom guns (on the cheap) on RIA receiver/frames, and a gunsmith can learn a lot about the build quality (both metallurgical and spec) by building a gun on the receiver, or customizing a complete gun.

You learn about �spec� by fitting top quality parts that are a known quality. If they�re very difficult to impossible to fit, then chances are you have a receiver who�s spec�s are a little or a lot off. You learn about hardness of the steel when you take machine tools, Dremel, or file to the receiver.

Knowing the original importer

The original importer is a very small company out of Modesto California, The Dealer Warehouse. I�m acquainted with the gentleman who owns The Dealer Warehouse. He is a former business partner to my best friend�s dad. I�ve had dealings with Rav (the owner) over the years, and I wrote an article on the Argentine Hi Power�s that he used to import. At the time I wrote the article on the Hi Powers (American Handgunner or Guns Annual, 2004 or 2005; I can�t remember which), I asked Rav a series of technical questions about the Hi Powers, but we also discussed at length the Rock Island Armory 1911�s he had been importing (this was right about the time he lost the contract to import the Rock Island guns�still a tender subject with Rav). Later in this post, or maybe another post, I�ll discuss testing done by Rav and those working with Rav at The Dealer�s Warehouse; for now, I�ll just keep this to my direct experience�

When our friend started importing the RIA guns, he also brought in a good number of frames, slides, and barrels for individual sale (and I believe a raft of internals). Many of Rav�s friends had the opportunity to buy RIA stuff for obscenely low prices and many of us bought up as much as Rav would let us buy. Some of us later paid full dealer cost to buy more because the quality was decent and prices were low.

From those frames, we all built up guns, in various configurations. Speaking for myself, 9 out of 10 1911�s that I build, I end up putting an Ed Brown grip safety (EBGS) on because I have a strong preference for the Brown grip safety. Installing an EBGS involves (some do it differently than I) cutting, grinding, shaving, then filing to re-shape the back end of the gun. That�s quite a bit of metal removal, and a gunsmith can get a feel for the hardness of the frame/receiver from doing such jobs.

Even more telling is fitting rails which is just a pain in the arse of a job to do; something I try my best to NOT do, but end up doing it much more often than I would like (I�d like to never do another one). So from fitting grip safeties, lowering and fitting rails, and checkering (I THINK I checkered one, but don�t remember for sure); I got a good sense of the �hardness� of a Rock Island receiver. At no time did I ever feel the RIA was especially hard or especially soft. Everything just seemed to be about right; and they are. You can build up a good gun from an RIA receiver. Wouldn�t be my first choice for a �best gun�, but if all I wanted was a good quality defensive piece for carry, there is NOTHING wrong with choosing an RIA receiver.

I have lowered and fit the rails on ONE RIA gun. It wasn�t uber-easy which is a sign of very soft metal. I was just as much of a B-otch as most guns, but admittedly, I�ve had guns that were tougher.

I�ve fit ONE Rock Island slide to a Caspian frame and that was a straight up B-otch, just like it should be; which is an indicator that BOTH frame and slide were very hard. But I�m here to tell you, it was the FRAME (Caspian) that did most of the give, not the slide. Yes, I AM telling you a Rock Island slide is HARDER than a Caspian cast frame. I don�t know why you (Bricktop) find that so hard to believe; especially since you don�t have any direct experience whatsoever with Rock Island products.

Additionally, I�ve milled sight cuts on Rock Island slides and anecdotally, I can say they�re a little softer than a Colt�s, but not so soft that I would call them a �soft� slide. Wear to my cutting bits was noticeable but no more significant than other common 1911 slides.

Machine quality and finish quality of a Rock Island slide is good, but not quite as squeaky clean as a Colt�s, but not noticeably behind a Springfield (stay focused, I�m talking slide here). So from a gunsmithing standpoint, every indicator points to a good quality slide. Is it a best quality slide? Not exactly, but they�re damn good and I see nothing to indicate these slides won�t last just as long as any other quality slide. Typically speaking, I find the RIA slides are better finished (as in metal work, not bluing/Park, etc) than their frames.

As for customizing RIA guns, I have done some light customizing of these guns and I�ve never had any problems fitting parts from the likes of Wilson, Ed Brown, Chip McCormick and others. Fitting parts to RIA guns, I have encountered no more fitting work than with most any other brand of gun/receiver. That tells a gunsmith that the specification is held tight and consistent; that is a very important element of building a 1911 receiver. Perhaps some have encountered problems, but I haven�t. I�ve worked on around 10 RIA guns, so that�s a decent sample, but surely not definitive. But I also have close friends who have built many more guns that I on RIA receivers, slides & barrels and I�ve yet to hear any complaints.


Gunsmith �shop talk�

My group of gunsmith friends would tell me if they ran into issues. We all tend to share our gunsmithing knowledge in an informational exchange. Just get us into a room together, pop a bottle top and the �shop talk� just naturally happens. Again, no one�s ever had issues. Every last one of my gunsmith friends have the same exact assessment as mine. Good guns, built to spec, easy to work on. Often not real pretty, not the best finishing job in the world, don�t always make for a pretty gun, but often do.

Most of the negative comments are on the final finish work, which is not always pretty. But hey, I�m here to tell you, my $1,400 (retail) SW1911PD has as many, if not more subtle machining flaws as your average RIA. But like the RIA, it has it where it really counts.

Regarding RIA whole guns, I�ll say that their internal parts often leave something to be desired. Before I trusted my life to an RIA for any long period of time, I�d swap out the slide stop. I�ve seen more than one that has had casting inclusions; that doesn�t sit well with me. Although, I have to say, I�ve never seen one fail yet.


Now I certainly don�t qualify as �one of the top gunsmith�s in the country� nor do I ever want to be. I walked away from full time gunsmithing and I don�t miss it one bit. I�m very happy to have retired to �hobby� gunsmith. But where guns and gunsmithing is concerned, I certainly know enough to form my own opinions, and I don�t let others form my opinions.




Next, will be some discussion of testing done by the importer. I have a friend who was DIRECTLY INVOLVED in the testing of the RIA guns. I�m trying to get him to log onto this forum to give a brief description of the testing done, and the results. Additionally, he is one of my gunsmith friends and he has built many guns from RIA receivers & slides; many more than I have.

If I can�t get him to log on, I�ll cover it as I know it�but I do have the e-mail he sent me on the issue which I can cut and paste what he said.

Mr. Dunn,

Hello as well and welcome! I too really like the RIA - I may be purchasing another in the future! Hoep you like it - with the exception of Briktop, we are generally well behaved

Thank you all for the nice Welcomes....I will not judge this forum by the one of its more colorful members. I look forward to exchange of information here.

iambrb....They are great guns and if you concider the price and what you are getting for your money...they are Fantastic guns.

Welcome to the Campfire James, I hope you stick around. On the whole it's still a great place to learn, share and joke. Just remember it's the Internet.

Thank you for the thoughtful posts Kevin. They take some time to type out, but I (and I'm sure others) appreciate the effort and the knowledge that's imparted.

Kevin,

Thanks for the detailed info. Heading to the range with my RIA this afternoon (along with one of my Springfields). Confident it will do fine

The only real negative I have to say about the RIA for what it is - the supplied magazine (at least on mine) isn't worth using. Switching to any of my standard 1911 mags makes everything happy (McCormick, Wilson, Metalform, etc.).

Gunsmiths and the RIA Gun;
For the first few years that Springfield Armory was selling 1911's most "Big Name" gunsmiths would not touch them noting inferior quality, soft metal etc....none of these claims were true ever of the SA guns.....then the gun caught on...Then the guns had to be marked with "Made in Brazil". The guns were always made by Imbel in Brazil just SA didn�t mark them that way and they got in a bit of trouble for it but that�s another story.

After the SA 1911's were being marked "Made in Brazil" a lot of "Big Name" really slammed them along with some gun writers. It was a bad rap just like this entire flap on the RIA. RIA has always been a good gun and its steadily improving just like SA 1911's have over the years.

The RIA guns are most likely the best deal on the US gun market. You can get the more bang for the buck in a RIA than any other 1911 type pistol made today. Ohh and there are more 1911's and 1911 mfg's today than ever in history.

Have there been some bad 1911's sold in this country, absolutely yes. Some notable guns there are the Federal Ordnance guns. These were badly made, ill fitted by less then trained labor. Now I liked the FedOrd Alloy frames but the steel frames were garbage and whole guns even worse. That said FedOrd on the best day can not measure up to and RIA gun on its worse day.

If you�re a gun snob then RIA guns are not for you. If you�re a shooter that wants a good gun at a great price that works...then go with RIA.

Ohhh and as for what Kevin Gibson has said....I agree completely. Not just because I know him personally but because he knows guns. He is a nationally know gun writer that writes from the shooters perspective not the Gun Companies. He is practical and knowledgeable. Not to mention tolerable of some peoples obvious lack of both civility and knowledge.

James' involvment and qualifications are predictably for him, HIGHLY under-stated. James and his father have been players and participants in so many things related to the 1911 pistol. If James decides to stick around for more dialogue, you'll find he's a massive wealth of information for anything 1911, and many things not 1911.

A lotta time invested here by Kevin and James and others.

I for one appreciate all the 411; it supports what my personal hands-on experience with my own 45 ACP and 9mm RIAs has been.

Thank you, and welcome aboard, Mr. Dunn!

Noah

Thanks Kevin for the post.

Thanks James for your post and welcome to the Fire.

Stanimal, Noah and others.....Thanks for the welcome aboard and Kevin....the check is in the mail...LOL....thanks for the support....Ohhh Next RIA purchase...(in 2 weeks).one of the RIA Officer Mdl guns....I cant wait to torture it and see how it does and I will report back to fine folks....shoot straight and be safe

One of these days I'm going to stop spending every dime I have on my kids and buy me one of the nickle .38 Supers. Drop some mother of pearl grips and call it my south of the border special.

Bricktop's okay he just sometimes goes outside and steps in pig shixt then comes back in.

Actually, go with buffalo horn grips, with a good bit of white in the graining, and you're REALLY there.

Oh, you mean Mother of Pearl like these:

http://www.handicraft-vn.com/shop/1...cially-limited-p-1185.html?cPath=101_102

Yeah, buff horn looks much better; but it's just not true south of the border. I grew up knowing a few true blue south of the border types and they had MOP...this gun would be somewhat of a commemorative to these fine gentlemen.

I have to agree on the Buffalo Horn.....Sexy very sexy....and I love .38 super.....Hmmm now I am torn....the Officer Mdl RIA or the Nickel .38 super....See in CA we can only buy 1 handgun a month....decisions, decisions....darn it Kevin...now you have me all confusied

james first welcome to the fire i'm looking foward to future post from you with your knowledge.


kevin thanx as always you have enlightened us a little more also brought any brain to the fire for us to learn from.

I'm guessing bricktop won't come back to this thread now

Actually, go with buffalo horn grips, with a good bit of white in the graining, and you're REALLY there.

This is exactly where my thinking is with my new Super. Cha cha with class.

d.

Mr. Dunn, funny you should mention the Springfield/Brazil marked guns. By chance, I was working in a gun shop with a gunsmith who had graduated in Trinidad, Co back in the 70's and had worked under P. O. Ackley. He is knowledgable regarding the 1911 and is my main influence therein. We were selling the Springfield guns and had several production run batches with serial numbers that were pretty close in digits that had soft sears/sears that went bad, causing misfires and one to double. After this happened (maybe 5 guns total), we never had another problem and in fact, for a time, had a Nowlin (I think it was) custom gun back when compensated were rare. It was a beautiful firearm, and I never heard of any other problems with those guns, FWIW.

Perhaps this is a partial source for some of those rumors? Did you ever hear of similar issues? I work in manufacturing procurement, so my thought is that this was simply a "bad" batch of parts and only a small amount at that. Have you ever heard of this?

Thanks!

Welcome to the Forum!

Guy's what happen to Brick Top?

I have enjoyed and learned from Bricktop's informative posts. His style is sometimes a bit over the top for my tastes and I think he is operation on prejudicial opinions on this subject but he is still a keeper in my book. Besides, sometime he is fun.

James Dunn, welcome to the 'Fire. What a time to join! Your posts are most welcome.
Cole, nice thing to say. Good on you.

Geez, damn near forgot: KG, you have brought a lot to the table.
Thank you.

Add my welcome to the Fire and thanks the KG for his posts too.

Thanks for all the good posts. Glad I stuck it out and read this thread.

Eventually, I have to weigh in only because it's against my nature to sit on the sidelines for very long.

"Softer" metal is not necessarily a bad thing on certain guns. With semi-autos, the hardness of the two mating surfaces must differ for consistent operation. But that's beside the point.

I once owned a 1903 Winchester 1886. The metal of that rifle was so soft, I couldn't imagine it taking the stress of high end .45-70 loads, yet, it was determined around the time I was being born in the 50s, that these guns would not wear out from stress due to the genius of their design.

My 1909 Argentine Mauser in .35 Whelen is a keeper. Yet, some custom gunsmiths believe their metal is too soft for high end loadings. Still, it's considered one of the most desirable actions from which to build medium calibers in custom Mausers. The .45acp is not a high end cartridge and soft is, as soft does.

There was a time when the Colt's Gold Cup was determined by "experts" not to have the longevity of other models because it had a "lite" slide. Of course, there was a time when this was gospel, long after that had been corrected...yet "experts" continued to write and re-write this every chance they had to sell print.

There are frauds here. Men of the school that "he who speaks the loudest, has to be right." Mostly, they are hen-pecked minor functionaries who have nowhere else to go to feel important. Often, they are people unsatisfied with their station in life have to find a platform from which to browbeat others. The internet is a place where pencil-necked geeks can assume "Captain America" proportions.

I've got this old Gold Cup - slightly modified. It took me through half a dozen years of competition and uncounted rounds fired. No peening. Heck, the frame rails still have some original bluing on them! Yet there are still experts who decry them for custom work because of the "lite" slide.

One old gentleman who waxed quite a few butts in Texas, used a bone stock 1911A1 with a cracked frame well after it should have been retired.

Some people talk a good game. Some people speak from experience. On the internet it's tough to tell. But one thing for sure, I am a lot more likely to believe something written by someone who posts their name and photo, than someone who does not. If you stand behind your name, you have a lot to lose if you lie.

Dan

Springfield has always worked with a number of sub-contractors for internal parts, pins and springs. James has worked with all those same contractors and, 1- I'll bet he could tell you the name of the early Springfield contractors (but I doubt he will, because that's always kept hush-hush), and 2- James would tell you that a great deal of those sub-contractors have rather shady reputations.

Also consider. Back in the early '80's is when these subcontractors began switching to investment casting to save a buck and under-cut the next guy. Early cast parts went through some real teething problems, and that's probably the source of trhe soft sears in those early springfield guns.

The sub-contractors I'm talking about have always marketed the OEM's and billed their parts as good "stock" parts, but everyone knows they're not top notch quality. Don't get me wrong, they're not bad parts, but they're not Wilson Combat for sure.

Since James is darned near family with these parts makers, he has always been one of the very few private individuals with access to those OEM parts and that's a big source of the 1911 parts he sells. James also sells the top notch stuff.

James is also known for always having the collector stuff. Need an honest to goodness Commercial 1911 long trigger, James is the first guy to check with. Need a pre-War Super .38 Slide, check with James (those don't last long...they're gone about 5 minutes after he gets them).

I don't know how much time James will spend at the Campfire; he's not much into forums. I hope he comes back, because that man is a HUGE wealth of knowledge...unfortunately much of the most interesting knowledge would get him in HOT water with all the manufacturers if he ever shared it...Most times, he won't even share the dirt with me, and we've been close friends for damn near 30 years.

There were as I understand it some issue with soft sears and hammers in the early Springfield guns. This came about for a couple of reasons. To get around the "Import Mark" issue SA would import Frames, Slides, Barrels and some other parts then assemble the guns here in the USA using some off the shelf commercial parts. Some of those came from a vendor in the Orange County Area of California. The Sears and Hammers were soft and not hardened after finish machine work. This happened to a very few guns and the then rumors took off like a flushed quail. After SA got in trouble with the lack of Importer mark deal...all the parts were then made in Brazil at IMBEL. Few places in the world have the attention to quailty as IMBEL. After that the issues with "sub standard" contracted parts ended...and we now have the SA 1911,s that we all know and love.

Funny you mention the Gold Cup Slide. That slide with lightened for a reason and that was so the gun would function reliably with light target loads. That Slide and its 12lb recoil spring have in the past made me a lot of money. Too many people have given the GC a steady diet of hardball ammo while never upgrading the spring. The long term result is normally a cracked slide. They come to me and I replace the slide (at a real high cost because there are no cheap GC slides). That said I know of a cracked GC slide that was used for over 10 years without a hitch. The other common issue is the forward retaining pin of the rear sight will shear off and sometime the rear sight will come out. This is from the battering of hardball while still using the lightweight recoil spring. So I tell my customers that it is okay to shoot hardball or even hot loads in a GC just put in a heavyier recoil spring. As for the Gunsmiths that used to not work on those slides because of the lightening cuts inside....they in my opinion are nuts....look at the lightweight slides used in today's comp guns. Have a great day and shoot safe.

The Eliason rear sight went away in the first year I had the gun. Replaced by a milled in rear sight, along with the front sight and of course a heavier recoil spring, beavertail grip safety, mated bushing and a ported mag well. That's the sum total of the changes made to the GC. She's been a marvelous pistol ever since.

Still, Colt was cutting corners in the late 70s when she was bought.

Dan

I have a Gold Cup that's about 20 years old. I started using UMC hardball and about one round out of fifty would stove pipe. I sent the Gold Cup to Wilson and end of stove pipe. I know they put in a heavier spring, I'm thinking maybe 18 pound maybe heavier. A lot of other stuff has been done as well. Shoots hardball and hollow points all day long with out a hitch. I had the Gold Cup accuracized and up graded after about a hundred rounds of use. I don't see any cracks but who knows they could be there. I just shoot the sucker day in and day out.

For the final word.

I�ve had these run ins with a few people who just push harder and louder. I call them on their BS and they just raise a racket. They make all sorts of outlandish accusations toward me, and (for those who remember) I have ALWAYS delivered. I ALWAYS back up what I say. On two distinct occasions, I have provided very specific events and even provided names and numbers to allow ANYONE to just pick p the phone and see if I�m FOS. I�ve supplied the names of schools I�ve gone to, past employers, and people who could verify my claims. And like Dan said, I post under my real name, and there�s even a photo of me. All this is to say, I DON�T BS.

Now I will say that on more than one occasion I have been wrong. I kinda like it when I�m wrong and someone calls me on it. It�s good to be knocked down to size, and it�s nice to learn something new (I learn something on this forum nearly every day).

In clearing up things for this topic/incident. Much of what I wrote was my OPINION based on my experience (conclusions/ reasons why gunsmiths didn�t want to work with RIA�s). Then there was OPINION based on my direct knowledge working with RIA products. Finally, I called in a favor from a dear friend who was directly involved in testing the Rock Island product.

This took time out of my day. I�m disappointed that Bricktop hasn�t manned up (as I do EVERY time I�m proven wrong, or have been caught being an ass), and apologized to those he belittled. Unfortunately, I�m not surprised; his behavior is normally rather deplorable.

For those eating popcorn and watching the show. I hope I wasn�t too brash or arrogant (I get that way from time to time); but most importantly. This forum is to share knowledge and for people to learn from each other. I hope everyone appreciates the effort; and a HUGE thank you to James Dunn for dropping by and talking about what he did with/for The Dealer�s Warehouse (original importer of the RIA guns).

If the fire lost you, we would be the poorer for it. Not so with Bricktop.

You da man.

Kevin Gibson and James Dunn,
I really appreciate your time and effort to shed the light of practical knowledge on this subject. I believe your words carry much more weight than those of the internet ninja, Pricktop.

I'm sorry, but are there any openings where you work? Because I'd sure as hell love to work somewhere that would be as gracious as your employer is to pay your sorry ass to sit around and surf the internet all day.

Looks like your "common sense fu" is weakest of all.

I haven't seen anything yet that would counter anything I've posted or stated other than a vigorous attempt to "shout" me down along with a lot of petty insults. Like your posts.

Now that Wal-Fart is starting to sell guns again, I'd predict RIA crap to be one of their mainlines if they choose to sell handguns.

Well, I am ABSOLUTELY convinced. If you've "known the original importer of Rock Island Armory guns for years," how can ANYONE -- ANYONE AT ALL -- possibly argue with that? You're right, that's utterly convincing.

What a load of BULLSHIT.

Name one that will, stud.

That's quite the mark of credibility. I've seen people selling beanie babies and steak knives at gun shows, too. I saw where some woman was selling "vagina paintings" on eBay a while back. You appear to be in good company.

Please post on your "knowledge" base of metallurgical properties of these. I'm also interested in how well they stood up to welding of lugs.

Sure it did. You just posted it on the internet, therefore it MUST be true. No one should EVER question things posted on an internet message board.

Like you, for instance.

Really? When is that going to happen in this thread? All I've seen thus far is a lot of invective from you.

fookin soft azz RIA's anyway!



it's been another hoot fellas


anybody seen the Battop?

Some interesting opinions and perspective on RIAs on this thread. To the guys who posted about their personal experiences with Rock Islands, thank you for that. Always good to see someone provide credible information on a topic.

Bricktop - can you offer any support for your opinion that that Rock Islands suck because (1) they are soft and (2) well known 1911 custom makers won't work on them. For example, showing us a detailed comparison of the Rock Island with other manufacturers, say, like the Springfields. Or, verifiable statements from some well known and respected custom makers that they refuse to do custom work on the Rock Islands.

As you love to tell other posters, if you said it on the internet, it must be true. We all look forward to you coming forward with some credible data or sources to back up your assertions.

Credible? In what way? Because someone took the time to post an unverifiable statement? Wow. color me f*cking convinced.

Get off your ass and call Clark Custom when they open tomorrow: (318) 949-9884. Can you offer anything to support otherwise? No? Too bad.

As I also look forward to you and your Wal-Fart ilk "coming forward with some credible data or sources to back up your assertions." Thus far it's only been "IF WE CAN POST MORE OFTEN AND MORE VIGOROUSLY, THEN EVERYTHING WE POST IS TRUE AND WE'RE RIGHT." What a load of BULLSHIT.

I wonder, does Chip McCormick work on RIA guns?

Bricktop, we've gone through this exercise before. I'm asking you to present some credible evidence in support of your assertions that Rock Islands suck. Since you say they suck, surely you have some concrete evidence in support of that opinion.

I have not proferred any opinions regarding Rock Islands because I don't have any experience with them, nor have I reviewed any credible data or testing comparing Rock Islands to other 1911 manufacturers, like, for example, Springfields. For this reason, I won't be making any unsubstantiated claims about their quality or reliability on the internet.

You, on the other hand, have made some pretty strong statements that Rock Islands suck. Back it up with credible data, testing, or some other verifiable evidence. I'm sure you've got plenty of support for your opinions regarding Rock Islands, otherwise you would have never made these statements, right?

Looking forward to seeing your evidence, may help me make the choice between a Rock Island and a Springfield next time I buy a 1911.

If you're to believe the SUCKASSES who've beat the drums in defense of RIA bullshit, there's no 1911 ANYWHERE that Chip McCormick would rather work on than a RIA. Because if it doesn't say RIA, then you've run out of 1911s. Yep, "Made in the Philippines" isn't just what you want in your womens, it's what you NEED on everything. San Miguel beer, LBFMs, jeepneys, and [bleep] 1911s; it just don't get no better than that.

Got any credible evidence that disproves any of my claims? No? Damn, ain't that a bitch?

If you actually had any money, this would be a discussion worth having. You'd be better off spending your jack wisely. Like on new cinder blocks for your trailer.

Bricktop,

I don't see the need to come up with any credible evidence to disprove your statements because, again, I've got no experience with Rock Islands, and I'm not saying you're wrong. You may be 100% spot on in your opinions as to the quality and long term reliability of Rock Islands. If you could present some credible evidence to support your opinions it would certainly be useful to any members here on the Fire who decide they want to purchase a $500 1911.

I don't have any opinions on Rock Islands either way. You say they suck. All you've got to do is back that statement up bro. Surely you can do that???

Then goodbye.

Is that the best you can do Bricktop? Who's more credible, a guy who admits he has no opinon regarding a product, or a guy who has a strong opinion that's based on zero credible data, testing, or anything else. An internet tiger with no teeth is indeed an apt description of Bricktop.

Thanks for once again proving you bring nothing but a foul mouth and little else to this site.

I offered to video the destruction of my RIA. Heat in my forge and beat flat on my anvil if he had proof. I would even send him the results of the RIA's trip to my forge but all I got is because he said so. I too would like some data.

BRICKTOP said it on the internet so it must be so

You're utterly full of shixt. You were the one who made the charge that RIA's are soft steel. You are the one who continue to not back up what you said. I didn't read through all KG's stuff, but he did post some things countering what you said. Post some hard numbers to back up your charge of soft steel or remain the uncouth assclown you appear to be. I don't personally give a [bleep].

You leavin'? Well...bye.

I thought you had no opinion.

Absolutely. If everyone else can use that as the basis for their "proof," then why can't I? And why is everyone so scared to contact some of the 1911 pistolsmiths I've mentioned -- who've supplied me with my PROOF? Too scared they won't tell you rubes what you want to hear?

Then hit the f*ckin' road, too.

Reading really IS fundamental. Mostly mental, where you're concerned.

From what I've read, the STI Spartans are built on the Armscor pistols, which is why I was wondering....................

One thing to disagree but how about lightening up on the language and personal slams. Foul language only shows lack of vocabulary that is related to a poor education and poor upbringing.

The Handgun Forum has always been a civil place. No need to get personal.

Scott, I'm with you, but I've concluded that Bricktop wouldn't know civil if it bit him on the backside.

Bricktop, you saying some gunsmith has supplied you with proof really doesn't mean a damn thing, now does it? Show us the proof bud, shouldn't be hard to do. I'll continue to wait for your proof.

I'm a self-made assh*le. Neither my folks nor my Alma mater are to blame. ColeYounger's situation is different, I'm sure.

Overcome your fear of actual interaction with other adults, or just adults in your special case, and get off your ass and make some calls in the morning, little man. It's not hard to do. For most of us.

Bricktop, I don't need to make any calls because I didn't say Rock Islands are crap. You said that, now prove it. The personal attacks are a typical fall back position when you've got nothing. But hey, show us the proof and we'll lay off. Let's see the proof bud.

I thought you didn't care.

Don't have to prove anything. If you're wanting to disprove my statements -- and that's exactly what you're wanting to do -- then get off your ass and do so. Why the fear of interaction? Are you not allowed to talk to strangers? Yes, your personal attacks are a fall back position for someone who has nothing -- and that's exactly what you've got. I gave you a couple of names of firms, but you're too afraid to call. Either afraid of interaction -- very typical of the socially-inept little people who seek to harangue me -- or afraid you're not going to hear what you want to hear.

Bricktop, I'm not trying to disprove anything. I'm asking you to submit proof in support of your statements that Rock Islands are soft and no self respecting gunsmith will do custom work on them. If you can't present proof to support your opinions, then by god don't ever demand that any other poster on this site do the same when they state an opinion.

Did I make a personal attack on you? Can you show us where I made a personal attack beyond saying you're full of bs? Is that a personal attack if it's true? Calling me socially inept, that's a bit childish, isn't it. Is that really the best you can do?

This has been fun Bricktop, I look forward to doing it again in the future.

I agree. When the discussion turns into insults and swearing that's when I drop out to read only if I'm interested.

I am the same way. Thanks for cleaning it up.

Obviously not. You have neither the mental capacity, nor the ambition to do so.

The leader of the RIA minions, Kevin Gibson, posted earlier about having the "last word." That pretty well spells out what's important to the RIA SUCKASSES. Getting the last word. I'm going to bed now and work tomorrow -- it's what we adults do: make a living -- and I don't have the luxury of holding a job where I'm paid to sit on my fat ass and surf the 'net all day as is 222Rem's lot in life. That being the case, you ladies will be able to talk all sorts of trash about how your KICK-ASS Filipino 1911 changed your life, sort of like sex for the first time, which is still a solo proposition for many, if not all, of you.

I start work at 4:00 tomorrow and will probably get in at least 12 hours if not more. 100,000 pounds, 26 tires, 525 HP, 13 speeds + low and two in reverse, around five hundred miles dodging the idiots that think I can stop on a dime. Five more days to work and then I retire. I just pray I can make it without killing anybody.

Oh yes, and my RIA tucked inside my pants.

No, you just refuse to put up proof of your own assertion, probably because there is no proof. There are several of us here who are interested. Despite your insulting nature, I used to have a modicum of respect for you, but now I have none. You made a charge about a certain pistol and now can't back it up. That's more than lame. Your insults and jokes have also grown stale. I guess that's what happens when you lose it.

Scott, I have to admit to listening up when Bricktop first said they were soft. He's taken it so far with utterly no proof of what he claimed that I can't think there is any base to it.

My own Springfield is made in South America. Many fine weapons are made in other countries. I prefer USA made, but it is increasingly difficult to obtain such.

I owned a couple of Charles Daly's which are basically the same thing you've got. I wouldn't be afraid of an RIA in the least. Bricktop is evidently just blowing smoke and/or trolling. IMO, anybody can make a mistake or shoot their mouth off, but a man either apologizes or just drops it. Bricktop can't admit he was wrong.

So which is it, Billy or Greg?
STAFF not faculty

BTW I work weekends and varied hours. SO as usual, you're completely wrong about my playing on company time.

If you've missed it, I have nothing to work with.

Admit it...Man the [bleep] up and admit it. YOU made a claim, and YOU can't back it up; simple as that.

You act like a 12 year old kid who doesn't get his way; just bitch louder.

All ANYONE is asking on this thread is for you to back up your claim. I made my case, you reject it; fine.

Now make your case. Just back up what you say. But you won't, because you can't; and the only thing you'll do, is what every little ankle biter dog ever does...just bark louder. Keep barking little dog, you've got us all convinced. Pathetic, sniveling little sissy.

Wow....Well Kevin I guess we have been put in our place....and I am okay with that. It is obvious that facts mean nothing to some. It is the poorest of positions that have to result to personal insults just to justify a position that has no basis in fact.....you have to love the internet.

....I'm guessing he's Vicki!

Feel free to question Brick....I welcome all questions as I have nothing to hide since I speak from both truth and experiance. You speak of welding lugs....I have never needed to weld up the lugs on the barrel of and RIA gun...that is not the type of gun that needs it....If I want a gun that tight then I would buy a Kimber...that said guns built that tight normally lose reliablity once you start welding lugs etc. One of the hallmarks of the 1911 was its reliabilty in very adverse conditions. One of the things that produces that is generous tolerances in some of the mating surfaces. It is a combat pistol by nature and design. USGI guns rattle...and they go bang everytime....RIA Guns in general are slighty tighter than an old USGI gun but not as tight as a Gold Cup. The RIA gun I carry now has over 15K in rounds thru it. It works great, it is reliable and reasonably accurate for what I need. Do I own better built tighter guns...ohhh Yes...I still have my Series 70 that Swenson (god rest his soul) built for me (he was a friend of the family since the early 60's and one of the best ever in 1911's) once I went into the USMC, and I have a Bob Chow gun built for my dad in mid 70's. They are great guns and show absolute art work in the gunsmithing done on them. That said they are guns that I would not carry day in and day out. They are too tight for my comfort. I want absolute reliabilty in the gun I carry. As for my credibility just go to Ebay and look at my Feedback comments...you will see that I am an honest vendor that sells good parts are a fair price and have LOTS of repeat customers. If you dont think I worked for the importer of the RIA guns when they first came in...then call him....His name is Rav and the business is "The Dealer Warehouse" in Modesto, CA. You may also contact the owner of API in the Phillipines and ask if he knows me...His name is Bolo and his son Martin runs the operation here in the states. They will say yes as I am the one who introduced them to Rav. I got to know them when they were first set up in Hayward, CA importing .22 rifles and some ammo in the Mid 80's. Brick...I have been kind, tolerant and polite with you yet you continue to be insulting and rude in both comment and tone...Why???

Folks=genetics---Alma mater=environment---if he can't blame blame genetics nor environment perhaps he's just fundamentally defective??? Either way, he pretty well answered your question James.

I called Clark as BrickTop suggested and they WILL make a custom on a RIA. He stated that it was not his first choice but it will work. I asked what was his first choice and he said Springfield, kimber, etc. and that he believed the RIA steel a a little soft, but would work


It sems that they don't classify them as total POS as claimed by BrickTop

LOL....your right Gmoats....he did answer the question in that statement. There are some issues in a person's personality that you just cannot fix....Shoot safe and shoot often

Thank God you didn't do that twenty two pages ago. Think what we would have missed. I have a feeling though if you didn't record the conversation and get sworn affidavits this isn't over.

What I was thinking.

Noah

[quote=RufusG
Thank God you didn't do that twenty two pages ago. Think what we would have missed. I have a feeling though if you didn't record the conversation and get sworn affidavits this isn't over. [/quote]


Unfortunately you are probable correct

Any chance in hell Bricktop will back off and admit he was wrong? I'm not holding my breath.

I mean, Clark Custom; what do they know? I'm sure we'd all feel much better taking the advice of an anonymous poster on an internet forum who's only verifyable expertise is his ability to throw insults.

Well Brick...gonna man up?

I gotta say I really enjoyed this thread. And to answer the question, no, I don't think we can expect Bricktop to come up with any credible proof to support his opinion that Rock Islands are the suck. Having said that, I do appreciate the insight that some of you with actual experience with Rock Islands brought to this thread. With a few notable exceptions, good folks and a wealth of knowledge on the Fire.

I guess if he didn't build a custom on a RIA he would not be doing what he is in the business to do, make $$$.

He did in fact say that the steel was a little soft?

Would you want your $3K custom built on steel that was "a little soft"?

Not in this dog fight and don't want to be. I'll stick with my Colts, Kimbers, Springfields...and one old Norinco

g

Hey EXPERT, let�s talk about this for a minute, and I�ll keep it short and simple.

You�re being very specific here about the welding of lugs. Which lugs are you talking about? And please, be specific.

(here�s where Bricktop disappears for another week to �work��and then slinks back to take shots at me when he thinks I�m not looking)

There�s nothing to say what �a little soft� actually is in his book (the guy JWP talked to), but the fact that they will build one tells me that �a little soft� is still adequate.

If I�m building a gun that has fitted slide/frame rails, I want the hardest mating surface I can possibly get, because a rail job is a lot of expense for very little return, so the answer is an absolute NO. If I�m going to have a gun built with a rail job, I want a forged frame. For the difference in cost, why would you choose anything but the absolute best if you�re going to do THAT much work, spend that much money on it?

If the gun is not going to have a rail job done, then �a little soft� (within normal parameters) is just fine. If the gun is on the soft side of the normal hardness scale for a 1911 then everything will be A-OK for a couple of lifetimes. Keep in mind, GI 1911�s would be a touch UNDER the normal hardness range for a modern 1911 and you don�t hear of anyone complaining about the quality or durability of GI 1911�s.

But if you have even a cast frame that is in the normal range, and the RIA is most certainly within that range, then you really have nothing to worry about.

As I said before, I want no part of this pissing contest as I see where both sides are coming from.

I know what I would buy, but hell, whatever floats your boat

g

I am greatly relieved to know my RIA is safe. I do not have to destroy it because it is too soft to shoot.

I did not ask and he did not say how he determined a little soft, but he did say that RIA would work and they would build on a RIA. He gave no hardness numbers and I didn't push for them

I have a springfield and a Colt fitted with a Less Baer slide in full size 1911's and One Caspian and a Kimber Ultra Carry 11, so I have no experience with RIA

Thanks for calling. I will never send this gun off to be customized by someone else. I just wanted a carry gun for my retirement years. Heck, even if I won the lottery I would not send it off. Right around a thousand rounds through it now and the only failures were the fault of my reloads. Fixed the reloading and it has so far worked flawlessly.

Last night after reloading another hundred rounds I tried running a mag full by slowly working the slide and holding the gun upside down. Still no FTF. Don't know what more to ask of it. If I wanted something to put a round through an elk's ear at 500 yards I would buy a rifle. I want a carry handgun for protection and my understanding is that if I ever have to use it the chances are it will be a lot less than 25 yards. I feel confident it will do the job.

i'll get the popcorn cause we know bricktop will say you never called and becuase you posted it on the internet it is false.

If Clark says it's okay, it's okay.

I check in on this thread for amusement. I have a LOT of 1911's.
A friend of mine and i were talking as he was wanting to get one that wasn't too expensive. I mentioned in fact the R.I.A's would probably fit the bill.

Your friend would be served well by the purchase of an RIA gun. Good Gun....GREAT PRICE....go for the tactical version....has a 200-300 bucks worth of custom goodies on it (and gunsmithing) for just 75 or so more dollars than the base gun....he will get nice Heine type sights, dovetail front sight, lightweight trigger, Ambi Saftey, fitted beavertail grip safety, slighly lowered and beveled ejection port and full length guide rod.....great package for little money

Kevin, those sandbags must have hit BT's head like a pile of bricks. Oh, wait...




Perhaps this would be a good time to discuss just what exactly a rail job gets you (and what it doesn't).

Agreeing with others...This thread has been a hoot. It's also been informative, thanks to Kevin and James. I guess we can thank Brickhead for the motivation.

Rail Jobs....the least gain in accuracy for the most work and money....at the cost of reliability.....NOTE: we are talking mechanical accuracy here not the human part. Trigger jobs are done to help eliminate human based factors that can cause inaccuracy. Now on to the meat of this.....most of a 1911's mechanical accuracy comes from the barrel to barrel bushing fit, the barrel bushing to slide fit and the fit up in the barrel lugs to slide grooves. Accuracy is consistancy. Making the 1911 lock up consistantly every time in relationship to the sights (slide since the sights are on the slide) is where you get your accuracy. Next is a good Match barrel that is headspaced right and made to good specs, also good ammo. Also the right link is required to get the barrel locking lugs shoved up into the slide grooves as thight as it can and still have the gun unlock well. Those things right there is where 95% of the mechanical accuracy gains can be made. That said most good 1911's will out shoot 90+% of the shooters out there and do so right out of the box. In other words the gun is capable of better accuracy than most shooters can hold.

As for the Rail Job part of it....that is done to mainly take the "wobble" out of the frame slide fit. That fit can only give you at the most a few % points of gain in mechanical accuracy. Rail jobs are both expensive and time consuming. They also make the gun very fussy about any amount of dirt or shooting residue they can tolerate. Since your shrinking the tolerances of the slide and frame any dirt or residue can bring the functioning to a halt much more quickly. IN MY OPINION...doing a rail job on a defense gun is a fools errand...you gain virutally nothing and reduce reliability and reliablity is paramount in a carry gun. Anything you do to a carry gun that reduces accuracy is flat out CRAZY.

Made a correction for you my friend; I think this is what you meant to say.

I think a gun with a rail job isn�t quite as fussy as James makes it out to be, but he�s giving you the right drift. If you have a very tight match gun that�s built right, it can still be very reliable due to the fact that everything is constantly returning to precisely the same position during operation. So in one sense it can help the function of a gun that is kept very clean and well lubricated. But when hoards of foreign debris invades your gun, that�s when the trouble starts. One school of thought is that tighter tolerances make it much harder for dirt to get in; this is most certainly true. But once it gets in, you have removed all the room for the gun to naturally work the dirt and debris out.

A gun with a PROPER rail job can be 100% reliable if kept clean and well oiled, and will resist light to moderate amounts of foreign debris. You can have a carry gun with a rail job if you're careful to clean it every so often even if you haven't shot it. Still, I have a STRONG preference for a gun WITHOUT a rail job for damn near everything, including competition (unless I'm shooting bullseye).

Accuracy wise, James again has it absolutely right. If you�re a match shooter at the highest levels of IDPA or IPSC, you pretty much need a gun with a rail job. If you are a bullseye shooter, you have to have a gun with a rail job just to be competitive. EVERYONE ELSE would be best off without it.

To do a rail job on a pre-existing gun you have to peen the slide rails on the frame. This is done by inserting a piece of tool steel into the rail to limit lowering (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=842/Product/1911_AUTO_SLIDE_FITTING_BARS ), and then beat the crap out of your slide rails. I typically will lower the 4 corners as it�s really not necessary to lower the entire surface of the rail unless the rails are WAY off. So, when you insert those bars, and pound on the slide rail, you�re lowering, and peening the rail wider. Next, you put the slide into a vice and give it some very subtle squeezes. It can be done without a special tool, but if you have this (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9861/Product/SLIDE_RAIL_COMPOUND_CLAMP ).

When you�re done, the slide won�t even go onto the frame. So you lightly dress down the rail with a file just enough to force the slide on with a rawhide mallet. Next add some valve grinding compound (Jay and I prefer water soluable Permatex) , and using your mallet, you pound the slide back and forth until you have lapped the two surfaces enough to where the slide will move freely back and forth the full travel distance. To do this takes a good deal of time, and your frame will need to be re-finished. So you can imagine, this is a costly modification to your Roscoe, for AT BEST, a 10% improvement in accuracy. Most guns today have rather tight rails from the factory, so typically on newer 1911�s the improvement is more like 5%, like Jay (James � sorry, getting tired of calling him James) said.

I�ve built a LOT of 1911�s and Hi Power�s over the years, and I�ve only done ONE rail job for myself. Jay knows how well I shoot (and he can give me a GOOD run for my money); I typically practice with my handguns at 150 yards. Even at that, I don�t feel I need a gun with a rail job; I�d rather have the reliability.

NOTE: When Kimber started making 1911�s one of the most noticeable differences between Kimber and other makers (including Colt�s), was the tightness of the rails on a box stock Kimber. I really like how a Kimber slide and frame fit, because they�re tight enough to keep the gun VERY accurate, yet there�s enough play that only severe fouling will ever be an issue. They just struck a good balance, and when I build a carry gun, that�s the level of slide/frame fit I try to get.

OOPS...sorry folks.....I am flawed....just ask both of my ex wifes

Kevin is right...I am just a little paranoid...I am a former Marine and while serving in Beirut a mud covered (submerged in mud actually just seconds prior) 1911 saved my young rear end. As I pulled it up I was praying that I had more than just 1 shot coming. The gun feed and functioned as JMB designed, while both dispatching the bad guy and saving my life. Nice loose tolerances and a fantastic design allowed function in some of the worse conditions you could have...so since that time I have always been shy about rail jobs because I already knew first hand that reliable funtion comes first, mechanical accuracy 2nd....but that is just my perspective...LOL....shoot safe

Thank you James and Kevin. You said it much better than I could, and with the authority I lack as a non-gunsmith. With all this talk about rail jobs, I thought it a good idea to clear that up for anyone reading this thread and trying to learn.

The pleasure is all mine.....what good is knowledge if it is not shared....and I just chatting about guns...LOL

Wow, what an interesting and informative read. And to think I was just searching Norinco. So is this Bricktop dude really Big Stick?

No, when Big Stick was being an A-hole, he was usually rather clever with his turns of phrase. It was entertaining for a few minutes, then you realize he was just an a-hole.

I've asked Bricktop to stop being a jerk and just be a regular guy and come back to the handgun forum.

have to say if he leaves won't miss him but he does have some good info and normally a good gun knowledge

While I have not always agreed with Bricktop he has provided some extremely helpful posts and when I asked him to drop the personal insults he was a gentleman and did so. I have learned from him and would like to see him keep posting. I just will not always agree with him.

What you ladies failed to read and grasp is I never stated Clark wouldn't work on a RIA 1911, I stated they wouldn't guarantee their work as performed on one. Specifically their accuracy and reliability packages. Go back and read. And not just the parts you like either.

When Jim Sr. was still around, there were specific brands on which they wouldn't work. They'll work on a 1911 made from a bar of soap now, but they're going to limit their liabilities.

Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated. Contrary to the half-assed hypotheses advanced by a "noble" few, I am not employed by the GREAT University of Oklahoma. I work for a local utility company and as those of you who follow current events may or may not be aware, it's a tad warm here. Every power plant we have is running flat-out, balls-to-the-wall. It's my job to make sure these plants (at least the gas-fired ones) can meet our customers' electricity demands. In between work, kids, and trying to fit in an odd range session now and again, arguing with people on the internet is a very low priority task for me. (My dog also managed to eat a plastic trash sack this week and I've had the less-than-enjoyable task of "assisting" him as he has passed pieces of it.) I do not get my feelings hurt, nor do I concern myself with what people may or may not be posting in my absence.

FWIW I never thought for a second anybody had run you off. You still suck for not backing up what you said.

I backed it up just fine, you're just too damned lazy to follow up on it because you're not going to get the answers you want to hear.

And my RIA still resides on my hip and has yet to fail. Think I will keep it. I retired Friday and the new income will not allow a fancy 1911, Heck, it will hardly allow primers.

Congrats on the retirement.

Stories like James' above bring smiles to this former 2111's face. We worked on weapons as if our green brothers' lives depended on them -- because they did.

Semper Fi,

Noah

Put the dog on, he's probably much more interesting, and even in his current state; less full of chit.

Semper Fi Noah and thanks for the good work.....your attention to the details helped keep me and other green brothers upright and sucking wind

that was one of the more intelligent statements over functioning coming first that i have seen.
Good point

My Great Uncle retired from the Corp as a 4 Star


http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/gberskin.htm

Thanks for the service

Well that explains it, you work for the government. No wonder you have trouble with accountability....

lmao

No one's ever accused you of being too smart, have they?

Backed up fine by your LOW standards. You reject all evidence to the contrary no matter how good or how detailed. You're holding everyone but yourself to a very high standard. You give yourself a HUGE pass by not providing any ACTUAL evidence (even after you've been called) to support your view. I've provided the acutal Rockwell test results that were done by the original importer; gave the name and number of the importer for anyone to check to see if I'm lying. The one thing you gave, you've been called on (now TWICE), and you're still found to be WRONG.

I called Clark Monday, and they DO guarantee their work... they guarantee ALL of their work, or they don't do it; pretty much like any reputable operation. So your BS has been called AGAIN; yet you'll just come up with more BS...Because with you, there is a never ending stream of steaming BS that you're able to deliver on demand.

So okay, let's hear your next line of BS Mr. Barking Dog.

They have you though.

lmfao

You're owned BT. bwaaaaaaaaaaa

Sounds like the "dog ate his homework". Classic.

Well that about states it and I checked with the guys up in Reno at Tussey and they will work on them and back the work too.....

Then visualizations of Brick "assisting" the dog are both funny and disturbing too.....and I am sure also against the law in most states except Oklahoma

I shared a coctail or two with Terry at the SHOT show back in 04, he's a very fun kind of guy. He was toting around a gun he built that was basically a Springfield EMP be before there was such a thing. Terry made it the hard way, but cutting right down the mag well, removing enough metal to accept a true 9mm sized magazine (can't recall what he used for a mag...damn), then welded it back together and built the gun. His was equipped with a SFS trigger system; pretty slick little carry gun. Not exactly my cup of tea, but his workmanship was outstanding. Anyhow, I wish I would have stayed in touch with Terry, he was a LOT of fun.

...reading your entry made me think of this listing that I saw earlier today--not exactly like it, but.....
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=245209510

Supposedly that was one of the original points about the 1911. In muddy conditions revolvers would jam their cylinders, while the 1911 could keep running.

And thank you for your service

But you haven't offered any "evidence" other than the word of someone who was at one time importing this junk. Hardly an unbiased opinion.


Not on these they won't.

Call Clark Custom Guns. Not Clark Griswold.

You're the one who is too damned lazy to offer evidence. tff

I love this ongoing topic.

I do note the Brick is changing names on other forums in an effort to try and sell a gun. Seems nobody wants to bite under the BT name.

Just think of the bad mood BT is in as his boss is sure on his ass all day long. Cleaning up at power plants can't be fun.

He's just incapable of admitting he's wrong.

I have provided the RC test results from the importer

TWO people called HIS choice in gunsmiths and confirmed he's wrong; yet he still pops off.

I've invited one of the people who was THERE for the testing to log on and validate what I've said. JamesDunn has logged on, and has confirmed

I've provided the name of the importer and the number; anyone can call Rav at The Dealer's Warehouse and see for themselves.

I've provided my experience as a gunsmith in building guns on RIA frames. JamesDunn has provided his experience both testing and building guns on RIA frames.

I've provided insight into why a gunsmith will choose to work on this or that model 1911.

I've provided EVERYTHING. Bricktop has provided NOTHING to back up his assertion. The only thing he's provided has been disproved not once, but twice.

I also think it's pretty tacky for a blow hard like Bricktop to supposedly speak for a quality organization like Clark Custom. Bricktop is telling people what Clark Custom will or won't do, despite evidence to the contrary. He's telling you that Clark won't guarantee their work on an RIA gun. Clark will guarantee ALL their work; OR THEY WON'T DO IT.


Bricktop has offered NOTHING of value to this thread.

Bricktop hasn't done RC testing on an RIA
Bricktop isn't a gunsmith
Bricktop hasn't built a gun on an RIA receiver
Bricktop has postulated about issues related to welding on an RIA, but hasn't elaborated on when, where and why you would weld an RIA.
Bricktop isn't a welder
Bricktop isn't a metallurgist
Bricktop quite frankly has NO background of any relavence; yet purport's to be qualified to speak with authority on the subject

So Bricktop, again remind us; why would anyone listen to you?

Yep we know which Clark to call and I did call and you were wrong..

The number is 318-949-9884


Simple for anyone to do

Terry is in a wheelchair now.....he had a mountain bike accident and is a parapallegic now......but still sharp as they come and good

Thank you and it was an honor to serve this Nation that I love so much.........GOD BLESS AMERICA

Hmmmm neither Kevin nor I hide behind a screen name....so tell us BT....what evidence would surfice for you??? or is it just too much fun and too easy to be an Internet Know it all with only typing experiance????

BT himself has said he is an assho e. Believe him on this one item.

Cannot deny such overwhelming evidence.....unless your BT...LOL

That just sucks.

Oh hey... I remember why I couldn't remember what he used for a magazine; he didn't have one. He was still searching for a suitable mag.

I would of used the Detonic's Pocket 9 mag....same grip angle

Star BKM mags might have worked, also. Those aren't uncommon or especially pricey.

So, let me see if I have this right. My hard-as-chocolate-on-a-hot-day RIA will not melt if left in the sun? I can take it out of the freezer and carry it around? Wow. I am so relieved.

For cheap entertainment?

I believe that Rock Island came in 3rd today at the Bowling Pin shoot. Seem to work pretty well.....

Several people shot my hard-as-chocolate-on-a-hot-day RIA (now named Old Chocolate) at the pins yesterday. I did not keep track but I was told it beat out three Kimbers and beat out a Wilson Combat twice.

I will have to say the Wilson was a dream to look at and handle. I did not shoot it in the competition but stayed true to Old Chocolate. Never in my life have I felt a trigger on any handgun as wonderful as the Wilson. It definitely put both desire and lust in my heart but Old Chocolate dropped a lot of pins including something I have been told had never been seen before. On my last round I dropped five pins in six shots only to have all five land lined up straight in a row hanging off the back of the table. It is a good thing Mark who was shooting against me did not see what I had done or he would have been rolling on the ground laughing his butt off. Instead he just cleared his table and put me out of my misery. It was pure mercy on his part.

There are a lot of really nice 1911s out there but I think I will keep Old Chocolate. It spent the day dropping pins and once again worked flawlessly.

James Dunn and "Dr. Zark",

Thank you both for your service from an old brown shoe. After reading thru all 29 pages of this I am much more enlightened. I do hope you two gentlemen will follow Kevin's example and make yourselves available on this forum for your expertise is invaluable unlike some folks who just blow smoke up our butts and then get all indignant when we don't accept it as the Gospel.

I have a feeling that this "b rickhead " is actually a poster on another forum here who posts as Paddler; they sound so similar.

Semper Fi brothers,

Jim

Jim...always good to hear from the Air Wing.....I am very much enjoying this forum and "Most" on it....Kevin is long time friend of mine and if I dont follow his lead he wont feed me beers at his house...narrow minded guy..LOL....Semper Fi and God Bless Jim

Ole Brick top reminds me of a story I Heard many years ago, it has nothing to do with 1911s, but the moral of the story still applies.

Somewhere outside of Atlanta,GA there was 4x4 hill climb going on all the 4x4s were Big Dodge Power Wagons, Ford Broncos, and Chevy Blazers with builtup big block engines, big knobby off road tires tricked out with all the latest and greatest acessories and then this redneck with his kid in tow shows up with an old WWII army jeep with an flat head four cylinder Continential engine and the origional army issue knobby tires.

Well as the story goes none of those high powered 4x4s could make to the top of the hill, but the Redneck and his kid went home with all trophies as they were the only ones to make to the top of the hill not just once but numerous times.

Myself I like the high dollar stuff too, can I afford it? No, so I'll settle for the 1911 Citadel as it does the job for my needs, and despite what Bricktop says I read the reviews from actual users not some clown on the internet who comes off like Liar24.

LOL....Love the story....sometimes High Speed and Low drag are not for those who needs reliable tools that get the job done...without all the fuss and muss

I LOVE IT!

Bricktop is OK, I reckon. reminds me of this old man that came in the store one day and tried to wax poetic about his exploits in Korea with an M14. When the facts were pointed out, instead of just admitting that he had mistook the receiver types stuck to his guns and insisted he was right. He then thought that he could shout the room down. No matter what we tried to say, he would not back down (all the while egging it on), despite being offered much printed evidence to the contrary. His poor attitude and being self-convinced righteousness ultimately lead to him challenging a much younger and bigger and meaner guy with an even smarter mouth to step out side. despite me and some others trying to calm them we eventually kicked them off the property, and they stepped outside (of the property) and that old man absolutely got knocked on his ass, then kicked in the teeth right when the cops showed. arrests were made, the guy hauled off to the hospital, all the shile STILL insisting he was right, and it was not his fault, any of it. Small town being what it was, some no-tooth idiot relatives showed up and tried to blame me, the store, & the counter-clerk guy, who was not only another old man, but a CCW holder too (and was locally known for shooting a guy in self-defence a few years before). the whole thing took months to blow over and it really wound up hurting our business a bit, all because some old man was just too hardheaded to back down.........kinda reminds me of someone named Brick-top

It says something when Bricktop doesn't even know who the quotation on his sig line is from.

Like a lot of what he spews - he googled it and believed the first link he looked at.

To be fair it is credited to both Sam Rayburn and LBJ....but I have always say it Sam Rayburn because he was a very trustworthy politician.....rare then....not availble now

if they are hard as chocolate on a hot day do they work better at -20 and lower? thinking of picking one up in the next couple weeks and want to know if ive got to just use it in winter to be alright.....

Nope, then it was be as brittle as a n old man that cannot admit he is wrong.