Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Marlin Guide Gun - tell me about yours...

Cast bullets are not all the same..You want a minimum of .459 diameter with .460 usually being a better, more accurate choice although my Guide Guns shoot the .459 as well as the .460's so I mostly use the .459's because a have a BFR in 45-70 with much closer tolerances.

Jayco

Like McInnis, my feeble attempts at cast loading have been not great. I Use RL7, Starline brass and the Lee crimp die. I think the bullets I tried were the Oregon Trail 405gr cast.

Is gas checked or not a concern? Any other thoughts?

That's what the ports on the originals were for.

The rule of thumb is over 15-1600 fps,Use a gas checked cast bullet....Your rifle may benefit by bullets sized to .460 rather than .458/.459 that most retail bullets are.

Try some Beartooth Cast bullets sized to .460 and I think you will find how accurate a cast bullet can be.I prefer the 425 grain over the 405,but the 405 is plenty.Marshal Stanton cast, arguably the best cast bullet a non caster can buy.It takes some time to get his bullets because they are that good.

Jayco

Lots of good info - thanks guys!

I have an XS sight set coming. To me, this short carbine begs for that setup. But maybe a scope - I've got a Luepold 2x7 that's currently not attached to anything and a mount/rings...

I have some plinking rounds and some hunting rounds to test it with this coming week after it arrives.

Plinking loads are 405 Grain Laser Casts with 28 grains XMP5744 - 1370 fps.

Hunting loads are 300 grain Rem HP's and IMR3031 I think - 1850 fps.

Cast bullets and Red Dot.

Dang Jayco, you do like the stout loads. But I know you are a judicious handloader and I would not hesitate to shoot your ammo (in your gun ). I haven't had much occasion to shoot the heavy loads, but it's nice to know my Marlin has reserve power if/when I need it. That's a really great thing about the Marlin 1895 rifles and 45-70 caliber. You don't really need to drive those big slugs hard to put out some serious hurt, but it is there if you need it. One article written by Brian [forgot last name] in Rifle magazine tells of killing a cape buffalo with one shot from his 45-70 and shooting completely through and accidentally killing a second buff behind the first one with one bullet. His ammo was loaded to just 35kPSI which is well within the safety margin of the Marlin 1895. What would have killed these animals any deader?

As Jayco stated, Marshall Stanton of Beartooth Bullets casts bullets as good as you will find anywhere. I believe he casts to order so you might wait a few days. He is also a good Christian man of high moral character.

It's up for sale in the classifieds. Manuf 1991.

Alan

Not really that stout,Dave..I have been lucky enough to know two people who have pressure equipment for the 45-70 and were kind and curious enough to run a couple loads I was curious about and use..Most powders give out close to the same velocity/pressure but there are two standouts...RL-7 and AA-2230.In the old Alliant reloading guide on the net,AA-2230 gave 2243 fps with a 350 Speer out of a 450 Marlin at 39,900 PSI.Thats close to(67 fps) Max Ruger #1 loads for the 45-70 out of Hodgdons.

As you know Big Redhead,Randy Garretts 45-70 ammunition was one of the only other(not SAAMI specs) ammunitions accepted by the old Marlin Firearms.His ammo and velocities were barely over the 28,000 SAAMI and very acceptable for the modern Marlin.

Jayco

Guys: The August 2007 Handloader has pages and pages of pressure tested 45-70 loads published with a variety of slugs and powders all tested specifically for Marlins.

There's more 45-70 data there than I've seen under any other cover. I have a copy and a friend recently sent them $10 and had a copy in a week.

Isn't that the one from Brian Pierce without actual pressures and he ads CUP in place of PSI in other words,he list these loads do not exceed 43,500 CUP and without pressures...

Not knocking Brian but CUP and PSI are not quite the same at that level and I have never/ever seen load data for the modern Marlin 45-70 that exceeds 40,000 CUP.If there is some out there,please show me....

Jayco

430 Gn True Shot gas check bullett and H332 shoot to about an inch for me.

Don't have it in hand at the moment, as I am not at home, and I will not argue CUP vs PSI. If Handloader saw fit to publish it, I'll accept the data.

No problem 1minute.

It really doesn't matter as Marlin,atleast then,does not support reloading at any pressure...

The fact is with the Marlin '95 action,people like Wild West Guns take that very action and alter it for "length only" not beefing up or altering the action itself for strength,and call it the 457 Wild West Magnum with reloading data to 45,000 CUP.Hodgdons also supports it with data...

So,yes..Carefully reloaded it can take more than published Max 40,000 CUP data buttttttttttt......

I was just referring to Brians data in CUP as there in absolutely no modern 45-70 leveraction pressure checked data available to 43,500 CUP.

Jayco

If my numbers are correct (and with the state of my brain right now after five straight days of reality show filming), we have converted over 2800 Marlins (and some 71s and 86s) to the 457 with great sucess.

I personally am a 50 Alaskan guy, I think it kicks less. I am waaaay too Metro for heavy recoil.

WildwhatdayisittodayAlaska ��2002-2011

Its Brian Pearce (sp) and he specifically notes that CUP and PSI are NOT the same "Pressures that reference "CUP" and "psi" are not the same, but in regards to the .45-70 cartridge, they are essentially the same." This is after a lengthy explanaition of just what the 1895 in this chambering can handle and why. I was just re-reading this article last night. I keep all of my back issues of Rifle and Handloader.

And he does say on the same page (page 62, first paragraph - Handloader 248, August 2007) that "Some limit it to 28,000 CUP, others suggest 35,000, while still others list loads that reach 43,500 CUP."

You are critisizing that statement as erroneous. I doubt that he would write that if he didn't have knowledge of specific manuals. Can you honestly say there aren't manuals that are listing that data? Do you know this for sure? I would check my manuals but they are all packed up for a move...

Perhaps JB or another member here can look at some of their manuals and solve this "mystery"?

I've read enough of Brian's articles and tested the results myself to have gained some respect for what he writes.

You seem to be suggesting that he was just "running his mouth" so to speak?

I don't think so.

On another note: Well, I installed the XS sights on my guide gun. After doing this, it became very apparent that the barrel is tilted slightly to the right... further, when I look into the receiver, the cut-out for the extractor on the chamber head shows approximately the same amount of indexing error - in other words, it could be moved "left" about the amount needed to straighten things out on the sights and it would line-up perfectly with the cut-out on the reciever.

The question is, if I rotate it (I have a barrel vice) would this put the headspace off... Hmm.

I know this is more of a gunsmithing question...

I don't think it would hurt to try - rotate the barrel the tad that it needs and then check the headspace...

I can always just send it back to Marlin for adjustment.

I am not suggesting anything OSOK..The 450 Marlin has a SAAMI of 43,500 PSI and we don't have to go there..With Dentons PSI/CUP formula 40,000 CUP is 42,740 PSI.Go figure...

My point is,not suggesting anything.Show me any pressure checked data for the modern 45-70 to 43,500 CUP...You can't because it is not there only from Handloader magazine and Brian Pierce "without" pressures...

None of the major or any reloading manuals take the modern Marlin 45-70 past 40,000 CUP but they do take the 450 Marlin to 43,500 PSI/not CUP...There not the same,close but not the same.

Jayco

Took another look at the guide guns's barrel situation. There's a problem with just turning the barrel - the magazine tube is screwed into a dovetail mount that would also rotate and guess what? Yep, it's straight, so that won't work..

So, I called Marlin and they said "send it in...".

So, I'm sending it in.