Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers VERY Disappointing 444

A friend figured he owed me a rifle and had just come by a new Marlin 444 which he presented to me.It looked like it ought to do well as a pickup rifle , being short and all.

I've now shot up two boxes of factory loads and have reloaded about 20 of them , 3 or 4 at a time.I've got the third scope on it now and I know that's not the problem.

Up until today I have been shooting it at about forty yards or so out of the pickup window.The factory rounds were used in zeroing the scopes and busting jugs just to get used to it.I wasn't impressed with the accuracy , but laid it off to operator error for the most part.

The 240 gr. cast [KEAD] bullets I had on hand for my Blackhawk delivered about 6 in. groups at 40 yards with 4198 or plinking loads with LILGUN.

So I read on here what some of you liked and ordered 100 Cast Performance 320 gr. I started with 40 gr of 4198 - still shooting out of the pickup at 40 or so yards.POI was 6 inches to the right and about that low.Group size was 5 in.

So I loaded some with 41 gr and shot off my bench at 100 yards.DISMAL!I know I wasn't flinching because this rifle-unlike my old 1895 - has a safety button which I forgot to push off 2 or 3 times.[That maybe the only use for the damn thing!]

I could be charitable and claim a three shot group size of 5 inches at 100 yards with 41 gr of 4198 and the 320 gr.CP bullet.

I know some stuff to do to make a Ruger No. 1 or a bolt action shoot better,but this Marlin just seems to have "loser" engraved on it.

My old 1895 , even after I had the barrel cut down to 20 inches will still put 3 of the 350 gr Hornady[or just about anything else for that matter] into 2 or 2 1/2 inches at 100 yards.

BTW Both of these rifles wear Loopies.

Any use trying jacketed bullets ?

Bullets might be TOO hard. Is it microgroove?? SIZING critical for performance from microgroove barrels.

You say "new" as in brand new latest production run or just a new older rifle? I had an old one in the late 70's [Micro groove] which shot very well even with cast bullets 250gr Keith to be exact.My newer one which has a Ballard barrel shoots lights out with anything I've run through it so far.Try a Hornady 265gr SP and 45 grs of 4198./.just can't believe this won't work for you.Maybe bench shooting would be a tad better and more accurate than out the window of the truck..you might try that.

Well, there IS that!!

Try the Hornandy LE's.

So I loaded some with 41 gr and shot off my bench at 100 yards.DISMAL!

It appears to be pretty new manufacture.It's ported , has the @#^#$@! safety button and is NOT microgroove.

If it shot the Rem factory loads reasonably well , and since this is my first attempt with cast bullets in a RIFLE ,I might have more confidence in trying jacketed bullets.With freight added in , I've got 50 bucks in these CP 320 gr. and I don't look forward to shooting them all up in my Bisley.

I'm going to load a few more and see what they do from a cold bore tomorrow morning.

Check the twist rate. The older 444s were 1/38, the newer are 1/20. The 1/38 might be too slow for a 320gr.

Also if the bore was coppered up, it will soak lead and wreak havoc with accuracy. And slug diameter might not be a great fit to the bore. Might want to slug it and measure.

Usually jacketed bullets are more forgiving than lead regarding good bore fit.

My 45-70 Marlin bore was really rough, and was rasping off so muuch lead my bullets were sideways at 100 yards. I fire-lapped it and all is well now.

Usually the .444s are highly accurate. Buy a box of Remington 240 grain ammo. I hate ported guns but that shouldn't matter. Don't waste your money on the Hornady LEs.

Just shot this last week..175 yds off the bench open sights while zeroing my son's Encore.Just for grins and accuracy purposes we're going to Lead Sled it sometime soon.This was the Hornady 265 gr SP and 45 gr/4198

That Lead Sled will break your stock.

Not when you cushion it..used it many times to help pards on all rifles lever 45/70's included no problems.It makes a great rest if you take recoil into consideration and KNOW HOW to make it work!!

I've never heard of a Marlin shooting that poorly. My 444 cloverleafs at 100 yds. That 444p should be a shooter with that short stiff barrel. First thing I'd do is clean the hell out of that barrel. No telling how many barrels have been replaced that were probably just fouled.

One thing is for sure.The 320 gr. Cast Performance bullets are NEVER going to shoot well in THIS rifle.I shot 3 of them in front of 41 gr. of 4198 at 80 yards off the bench this morning.The minimum distance between two shots was EIGHT inches.The maximum was THIRTEEN inches!Oddly enough , the one inch bull was more or less centered in the "group".

I know this sounds like a scope mounting problem...BUT......

I found some load recipes for the TC Contender in one of my Hornady books for a 240 gr jacketed bullet.I used that data for H110 and the 240 gr cast bullets from KEAD and loaded 3 rounds.I shot them from about 40 yards out my pickup window and was in the black with the first two and pulled the third.

Considering the distance from the front of the chamber to the aft-most port , establishing the twist rate with a cleaning rod is problematic.Besides , I don't care WHY it won't shoot the heavy cast bullets.It's enough to know that IT WON'T.


For those critical of "window shooting"; if a PD stays up long enough for me to park at the right angle and poke my 22 250 AI in his direction , if the range is 200 yards or less , you can hear the sweet sound of "taps" playing before I squeeze the round off.

I'm going to try some more of the 240 gr cast and get some 240 jacketed.

Anybody want to buy some 320 CP bullets ?

Or trade?

You're right.But that's not the problem here.I've learned this much:

A good barrel will shoot most any thing it is SUPPOSED to shoot and will do it well.

Some barrels are finicky about their groceries , but are good for SOMETHING.

I haven't run across a completely worthless new barrel yet[unless this one proves to be it.]

If this rifle were not a gift , it would be someone else's problem already.

I think you're full of crap.

It's obvious you've earned the reputation you have on here of being a know it all smart ass that very well may not own a firearm.Now....... That's the reputation you have with other folks.

As far as I'm concerned , you are just a dime a dozen , sorry son of a bitch and I'm making arrangements right now so that I never have to see anything you type on this website.

Good, then I won't have to listen to your lies.

I am sure many will find truth in this.............The Novice!!!

Your 444 has 1 in 20 Ballard rifling and should shoot cast bullets just fine. Since it doesn't, I think you should dump it cheap and make it my problem...

Amen

He's a liar....

My "Plan B" with the H110 and 240 gr. cast didn't work either.

I'm going to switch bases , rings and scope from my 1895 and buy another box of factory cartridges and start all over.

I originally put an old Redfield widefield 4X on this rifle and zeroed with Factory 240's.The old scope was pretty dim and I knew I was going to replace it so I never actually shot it for a group.

I bought a Vari X 2 from SWFA and tried zeroing again.It became obvious that the vertical adjustment wasn't responding right , so I sent it back to the factory for repair.Again, I never got a decent idea opf a group size.

I swapped the Vari X 2 for a M8 4X and that's what I've been using.There is no discernible movement in the bases or rings , but I'm gonna start all over with something I KNOW is OK.

If that don't work , it will be for trade for sure.

I've got a 244 AI with a Shilen barrel that won't shoot a 6 in group with 100 gr bullets , but outshoots me with 70 gr bt's.

Is that the best you can do???

Don't get CD going. Swampgas is no match for the old texican!

hey swampy, we all KNOW your full of crap. Don't care if it is one of your idols that you worship, Remington and Marlin do have crap out there and advising someone to shoot a box of your go to factory loads out of one of these POS is about as helpfull and informative as most of the crap you post

Keith and Russ;When y'all stumbled onto this internet "thang",years ago,did your thinking go in this direction:

"I'll bet all these guys posting this stuff about what they've done or things they've seen are lyin' like Hell 'cause they know they can't get caught at it,bein' away off over yonder somewhere where nobody can ever find 'em.I know they ain't lyin' to make money or to try and beat a rap of some kind,but I'll bet they're lyin' anyhow.They're lyin' just to make it look like they're smarter and got more money than me."

NO?

Mine didn't either.

I think a computer has a more powerful effect than alcohol on some people in that it brings out the idiot and azzhole faster

When I was a drinking man, I thought a little libation made my debating skills sharper, my appeal to the opposite sex irresistable, and my somewhat plain looks, dashing, as well as my knowledge on all matters irrefutable.

Seems Bill Gates has done the same for a lot of tenderfoots.

It wasn't so for the liquor, and it ain't so for a microprocessor.

O, and I been lied to by the best in the criminal world, and most of what goes on here can't hold a patch to it.

A drunk will- at some point- pass out or get locked up.

Gates woulda done a better service to mankind had he incorporated a similar "limiting device" for intruders into the cyber world.

Most who shoot cast in a marlin 444 find that .432 size works best and that .429 will offer turrible results. What size are your cast boolits?

Troll!

Now, ain't that a case of the pot and the kettle. Swampy calling someone a Troll.

DF

Amen to that!!!

The 320 fr. Cast Performance are .432.

The 240 gr.Kead are .43005 .

I put the base , rings , and 1X4 luepold from 45 70 on this rifle , went to town and got another box of the Rem 240 gr. jacketed bullets and just got thru zeroing it at 80 yards off my portable bench.

I was shooting pairs and "walking" it into the bull and it was putting the pairs within an inch of each other , so it appears the barrel is OK as far as jacketed bullets are concerned.

I mounted the original scope with stuff I had laying around , and I suspect the base may have been moving slightly as I could only get one screw in the rear mounting holes.The setup I have on now is one my 'smith installed when he cut the barrel off and recrowned my 1895.

I'm obliged for all the suggestions.

I wonder how many Campfire members the swamprabbit has hunted with? Is that something "trolls" do?

I don't know much about this internet deal , but I was at this campfire when the kindling was still burning.

I think Swampy marches to his own drumbeat. I posted earlier of the lady watching a military parade who was heard to say, "Look at my boy Johnny. He's the only one in step." Swampy reminds me of Johnny. And not only is he out of step, I suspect he's the only one hearing the music.

He's rigidly narrow in his outlook and isn't going to be changed by any factual input. In fact, input isn't his game, just output.

So, to answer your question, to my knowledge, not many. At least they're not speaking up. Either they aren't out there or they are too ashamed to stand up and be counted.

And, yes, that's what Trolls do. They bait and antagonize their prey. Most are onto Swampy and just throw him a bone now and then. I don't see too many taking his proclamations seriously. I know I don't.

DF

I would welcome some factual imput....if there were any. I'm rigidly narrow in my outlook because I'm right.

A truck window is no place to shoot from and likely it isn't legal to hunt from. The guy's an idgit.

They all are, Swampy.

They all are, no doubt, just 'cause you said.

You da man.

DF

Swampytroll, why don't you get lost. I was waiting to see how long it will be 'till your Ruger #3 45/70 is a piece of [bleep] because it key holed on one of your reloads or you tried 20 grains of bullseye as a reduced load.( Don't try it)

By the way guys, Swamptroll joined the Ruger forum.

Lucky them.

DF

What about shooting from a golf cart...?

DF

I put the son of a bitch on "ignore" but I still get treated to all his posts by way of the quote button.That's OK,though,since I don't have to respond directly to him.

Of course you can establish a VERY stable shooting position from under the steering wheel,especially now that they lock when you kill the engine.And it's legal to shoot from them on private land, even while hunting, as long as you're in Texas.

Guys like the Swamprabbit-and THEY REALLY ARE A DIME A DOZEN at their core- inhabit a fantasy world.They can imagine themselves to be whatever they choose , and imagine you and me to be whatever he decides to "make" us be , write a script for his own little drama and imagine us following his script.

THAT last part is why some of his responses are so out of touch with reality.

Now,most guys afflicted with Swamprabbit's particular mental ailment will populate their fantasy world with good-looking , horny , women.

Why he want's to use a bunch of us guys as his props , is a question I'll leave for someone else.It's beyond my comprehension.

Trolls are cowards, hiding behind a computer screen. I don't think they'd say to a man's face what they so often write from the obscurity of their den. They've got to put others down to make themselves look big, at least in their own eyes. They dogmatically spew out information as to appear expert, only to reveal their ineptitude. It's a function of the electronic age, I guess. I like modern gadgets, but cherish the old days when a man was a man and worms didn't dare crawl around in daylight. Even skunks move mostly at night. Daylight skunks, at least in my yard, tend to get blasted. Now, if those skunks just had a computer...

IMHO,

DF

Ah, Gene, you're so genteel . . . . . . . . . and so right about this nutpack.

I've seen Swampthang on a number of sites in the last 8-10 years. His . . . . ahem! "following" is always the same. Tough being right all the time . . . . . . . just ask him.

So Did you get it worked out?

Was it a bullet "Size" issue?


T

Funny how he claims that Ruger No.1's are inaccurate but yet he buys one!!!

That's because he's consistently inconsistent.

DF

Yep!I even got pictures.I've got pictures showing all the targets when it was spraying instead of grouping.I had the pictures when Swamprabbit claimed I was lying.I just havn't uploaded them to photo bucket.

I carry a digital camera in my pickup most all the time.When something waaaaay out of the ordinary happens -like a modern rifle shooting this bad - I'll take pictures in case I want to illustrate a thread or make a point.

It was a combination of things:Switching shooting positions , ranges , and loads just made it harder to figure out.It must have been the scope base was loose , although it seemed tight even when I removed it.

I've not much experience shooting lever actions off the bench and I find that this one is more sensitive to forearm placement than even a Ruger No.1.That obviously doesn't explain the spraying , but I can get a 6 inch vertical variation by moving the front rest.

Anyhow : It will put two factory 240's in the black at 80 yards , about an inch between them.It puts 2 of the 320 gr. cast performance within an inch of each other but about 6 inches below the factory bullets.

The 240 cast won't shoot and I expect it's due to the smaller diameter as someone on here suggested.

I'm going to leave thi 1X4 leupold on it and just let my 45 70 take a rest this Fall .I'll get the old Redfield back from repair by next Fall.

I'll soon find out what the 320 CP's will do to a hog.

THAT's when I'll post some pictures!

Thanks to all .

I've got a Ruger No.1 in 270 Wby that's bone-stock except for a set trigger and I'll shoot it against anybody's factory 270 for money,marbles , or chalk.That's with 130 XXX and IMR 7828 .

CD,

With the narrow forearm on lever guns, I like to hold the forearm in my hand, resting my hand on the front rest with the toe of the stock on the rear pad. It seems to be more consistent that way. I hold the gun tight with good pressure against my shoulder and a good, solid cheek weld. I get my best groups with that technique.

RKR

I'll have to wait for a second opinion from swamprabbit before I commit to that.

That's funny...!

If he agrees, then we're both back to the drawing board.

I don't own a Ruger #1 and never have. I've been a member of the Ruger Forum since 2007. You weren't old enough to buy a gun back then.

OK, now fess up to having a # 3 in .45-70. It's not a # 1, but pretty close.

DF

Lol!

I just said I don't own a #1 nor have I ever. I've never used any Bullseye either.

A very well known gun scribe once stated..."If Ruger ever made an accurate gun, it must still be at the factory." The M77s & the #1s are well known for being a "pig in a poke." Every once in awhile you find one that shoots. If you do, hang on to it.

Swampy will only shoot from a golf cart if it's an azz shot....

George

I don't own a golf cart. I don't shoot from cars, trucks, carts, etc. I leave that to you guys.

not denying the ass shot though....

I called plenty of folks liars to their face. You're a liar.

Can't so much as lean a loaded firearm on a vehicle here and the other states that I hunt in. Did you steal the golf cart you azz shot that deer from or did it belong to one of your geriatric "friends"?

Laffin'

George

ETA: Sorry CD but the rain is hammering here, it's been a long few weeks at work, and I need a good laugh.

The John Deere belonged to the owner of the farm. It was used to bring the buck back to the house from back on the ridge near the river. I can't even drive the thing. No use for road hunters like Tex here.

What's your one line of wisdom on skunks?

And what have I said that isn't true?

DF

Tell us more about your road hunting. Do you do it at night with a spotlight? How about seasons? Do you just road hunt year round?

For starters you implied I hunt from a golf cart. You implied that I'm a troll when you know full well why I'm here. It seems to be working BTW. Tex is a road hunter and just making stuff up about his Marlin.

Most of us are way past implying that you're an azz shooting, cart riding geriatric who can't age a deer. Further, nobody (you being the exception) is going to argue you're not a troll. CD and I may not agree on everything, but he's damn sure not a liar. You, OTOH....

George

I really don't know, Swampy, why you're here.

Need some help with that one.

DF

Prolly the best question ever posed to you on here Swampy!!!

I think you are the novice here!

How can I be a liar when I readily admit to being a novice???


Just like a big ass whiner......

you're a liar........

you're a liar........

you're a liar........

sound like a kid who got his lunch money stolen!

Can't you come up with anything better than that???

You act like you're about 10 years old. Nothing you post makes any sense. That's why you'll always be a novice. Any you're just one of the reason's I'm here.

Just wish you could come up with better answers!

Wasn't it in the movie "Magnum Force" that Clint said, "A man's got to know his limitations." Don't expect much, Rich.

I don't Keith!!!


Swampy needs no negative support from anyone here.........his posts state the obvious about him!!!

Yep, that I'm always right. And, you're not experienced enough to know that.

Claiming you are always right just goes to show what a little person you are and the lack of manhood you have.


A real man owns up to his own mistakes, accepts criticism and never claims to be right all the time.


Do I possess all these..............no..............but I admit that and that is a starting point!!!

No problem .West Texas Mule Deer hunting is ALL about vehicles as a general rule :



You'll notice that the "road" ain't much!

We do plenty of walking,climbing, and glassing , but you can't even SEE a deer out on the flats unless you can get your head above the cactus and brush.

Have you tried the Hornady 265 JSP's.?

They shoot well out of my 444. I can sometimes get 3 under an inch and 5 will almost always go about 1.5". Plenty good for what I need.

Here's what mine likes.

Hornady Case
Remington 9 1/2 Primers
Hornady 265 JSP
42.5 gr. IMR 4198
COL 2.565
Lee Factory Crimped

These Avg 2075 from my rifle.

It doesn't take a world of experience to know that your ratio of right/wrong is not that high.

That's an easy diagnosis, PhD not necessary.

DF

I'll soon find out what the 320 CP's will do to a hog."

Still haven't shot a hog with it since we seem to have a few good bucks in my hunting pasture this year.But........ I'm tearing apart the 320 CP loads with 40 gr of 4198.

Because........

Yesterday morning my S.I.L. was complaining because he had missed a hog with his 7 Mag the day before and was concerned his scope had come un-done.The only extra rifle I had at camp was this 444 , so I told him he could use it out of a little pop-up blind I had put down on a creek crossing where there were some big deer sign.

He had barely settled in when a hot doe brought a really nice eight point to within 60 yards of the blind.He shot him in the chest and the buck just stood there,so he shot him again in the shoulder and he went down.As he was still kicking , so Jason put one in his neck.It's his best deer yet and he is excited.Probably score 125 which ain't bad for an eight point.

Not a single bullet of the three exited.

I want an exit hole on a hog and this load ain't gonna cut it.

It's kinda funny , since hogs are usually my "test medium" for deer size bullets ,but this time it worked backwards!

I'm gonna up them two grains and try for a tighter crimp,and check 'em out on a hog.

Pushing them faster is gonna help?

My old 1980 Model with the Micro Groove has ALWAYS been a tack driver...with whatever you feed it..

as I have seen with other 444 owners, that have poor groups...

most of the time it is the shooter, jerking when they pull the trigger, afraid of the recoil...

I love the 444... so I think cool!,. an 8 page thread...

instead of that, I find not 8 pages on the 444.. I find 7 pages of what an butthead a batch of people think Swampy is..

mingled with 7 pages of Swampy denying it, but providing positive proof to the contrary....

another thread wrecked... and then the wrecker denies he's a troll....

Mine's the guide gun in 444 and it's my bear gun, hits where I want and does the job. I shot a buck this year at about 80 yards and went thru both shoulders.

I shot the 265's with a max load of 4198, 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

You are asking the right questions.

Actually, I think that my marlin liked 1.0g over max load of 4198 listed in the old lyman #46 reloading manual.

I've good luck with 46gr of H4198 and the Hornady 265gr FP and 42.5gr of the same with 300 XTP in my .444. 100yds.

you ever get this thing shooting straight?

No, always 44" to the right!