Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Need Help Finding Muzzleloader

Newbie here, but not to the forum worlds.


Well here are my questions. I searched and found multiple good and bad, but not everything I need. So here it goes;

I would like to find an inline for next season, now I mean I'll be likely to buy after this Christmas. We have mule deer, elk, moose, bear, well I'm in Utah so there. Anyway, most of the land I hunt is mountainous and draws with a hint of buck brush oak. Long range is a must, as well as good close action so really what I'm looking for a needle in a hay stack. Some of my long range shoots have been at 800 yards, and brush to 50 feet. Now I know 800 yards is out of the question, but even a good 400 yards would be nice. I usually only go for the mulies and elk.

Now here's the kicker; I have a bad right shoulder so I can't take the kick, and from what I've seen I am going to have trouble loading because of the pushing of the ram rod. So any thing out there will help in that area please advise me.

Also the look and functionality; with a bad shoulder I have usually gone with thumb hole stocks, laminate stocks (for added weight and ruggedness) and good outside thread muzzle breaks. I also want it Stainless and either gray wolf or camo color (including camo barrel if offered).

I would like an out of the box good gun with little need for playing around with 1,000 types of powder and bullets. Now I don't mind playing around and dialing it in, but something with some good history in the powder and bullet compatibility. Fine tuning isn't an issue, but it plays hell with my shoulder so a good building block to stand on is important.

I also would like the option of using white or powder / smokless and pellets as needed. (don't know if that's right?)

I would like to spend less then $500 for the gun or up to the $600's if it comes with a decent scope. Again, a good all around out of the box gun or combo. Now if I can find a good gun combo for $100, well I don't care as long as it works as intended for my use.

Thanks
~Rustin~



Here are our Utah muzzleloader 2011 rules:

Muzzleloaders
Utah Code � 23-20-3 and Utah Admin. Rule R657-5-10
Muzzleloaders may be used during any big
game hunt�except the archery hunt. To hunt
big game with a muzzleloader, your muzzleloader
must meet all of the following requirements:
� It can be loaded only from the muzzle.
� It must have open sights, peep sights or a
fixed non-magnifying 1x scope.
� It can have only one barrel, and the barrel
must be at least 18 inches long.
� It cannot be capable of firing more than
once without being reloaded.
� The powder and bullet�or powder, sabot
and bullet�cannot be bonded together as
one unit for loading.
� It must be loaded with black powder or a
black powder substitute. The black powder
or black power substitute cannot contain
nitrocellulose-based smokeless powder
� To hunt big game, you must use a lead or
expanding bullet or projectile that�s at least
40 caliber in size.
� If you�re hunting deer or pronghorn, your
bullet must be 130 grains or heavier, or your
sabot must be 170 grains or heavier.
� If you�re hunting elk, moose, bison, bighorn
sheep or Rocky Mountain goats, you must
use a 210-grain or heavier bullet, or a sabot
bullet that�s at least 240 grains.

encore and an aimpoint?

Well, 400 yards isn't going to be a possibility without scope magnification. Utah doesn't allow smokeless so I would look for a quality blackpowder guns. A T/C Omega would be a good choice with Blackhorn 209. Just my opinion.

ddj

Well I have dropped animals at 800 yards with open sights and a Savage 30/30 so I know it can be done, open sights just makes it really (#$*&^$ hard....LOL

Anyway, I have been looking at the T/C's however there seems to be some smack on them here. I've also seen the CVA like this: http://www.cabelas.com/product/CVA-Accura-V2-Stainless-SteelRealtree-APG-50-Caliber-Muzzleloader-with-Scope-Thumbhole-Stock/1231261.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D5100199%26Ne%3D5100199%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dscope%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26WTz_st%3DSearchRefinements%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26search%3Dscope%26searchTypeByFilter%3DAllProducts%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=scope

Or this one which I think includes a starter pack: http://www.cabelas.com/product/CVA-Accura-V2-Stainless-SteelRealtree-APG-50-Caliber-Muzzleloader-with-Scope-Thumbhole-Stock/1231261.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D5100199%26Ne%3D5100199%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dscope%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26WTz_st%3DSearchRefinements%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26search%3Dscope%26searchTypeByFilter%3DAllProducts%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=scope

However, again what about the kick, is there anything out there that helps?

I see that Cabela's has a few, however I'd order it the gun.

I do like the easy 90 degree breach plugs I have seen, that's a great idea.

Limbsaver makes buttpads for most of common muzzleloaders. That will help the recoil.

You may find a difference in trajectory in shooting a muzzleloader at 800 vs. a 30/30. I would look at shooting at a more ethical range of 200 yards and enjoy the hunt.


ddj

Accident's do happen.

Well of coarse!

The whole point in it is to be able to get closer to the animals with camo, sent, and calls. I hope never to have to use a 400 yard shot, however if needed I would like to see me at least be able to make it there. I have seen a friend of mine hit coffee cans at 300 yards with his 50 cal, so I appears a good long range shot under 400 is do-able, but hard. My main question is what model and what options can I use, but stay within the criteria if possible?

What about muzzle breaks?

You have to forget about 400 yd muzzleloader shots. There are muzzleloaders that will shoot that far, but they cost in the thousands, and take huge amounts of powder. The recoil will not be friendly to your shoulder.

Think more about 200yds, and the recoil will still be stout.

Animals aren't tin cans.

Recoil is really up to you-- after all, you're the fellow that decides what load into your frontstuffer. If recoil is a serious issue, get an Evoshield recoil shirt. They are outstanding.

The "400 yard" thinking isn't particularly realistic. But that also is up to you. If you can put your shot into a 4 inch circle under hunting conditions without fail at 100 yards, that's your effective range. If you can do it at 600 yards, then that's your range as well. Animal movement, wind drift, and the long time of flight associated with large diameter projectiles doesn't make that greatly appealing. How far do you shoot a .45-70 or a .444 Marlin? All up to you.

Hunting coffee cans is the better idea. No limit, no tags needed, etc. No one HAS to take a 300 yard shot, much less a 400 yard shot. It is a matter of judgement. How far have you shot muzzleloaders?

Seems to me that a 30/30 would have just about enough power to make it 800 yards, let alone penetrate anything when it got there!

A typical .30-30 load (Federal #3030A), assuming just a 10mph crosswind, has about 66 inches of wind drift . . . at 500 yards.

LMAO a decent scope for $100


You really are clueless aren't you? Either that or you are pulling the wool over everyones eyes with this joke post

Good luck with this one!

Rustin, after reading your post...this would suit you perfect.

First off, I don't care about what people think of my shot down hill at 800 yards, it was a fantastic shot and I won $50 right at the time I did it for taking the shot and the deer dropped in it's tracks. Ya that was with open sights, shooting down hill, and aiming about 30 feet over it's back.

I can take the little immature joking but I was actually under the impression there would be some actual help on this forum as you guys seemingly know your [bleep]. Maybe I was incorrect. Ok so 400 yards is out of spec's, I can handle that, now get off the center stage.

I know how much good optics cost as my 7MM has a $700 scope on it. The fact of the matter is, there is only a 1X scope that I can use here legally, so I can only assume a decent scope (not the best money can buy) can only be in the $400 dollar range. Now if you actually read my post I said "or up to the $600's" meaning high $600's therefore meaning really up to $700. Now a package deal with a T/C Bone Collector at $499 and up to $200 bucks for a scope seams reasonable in my mind, and being a package deal one would assume you could get a good deal on the package.

To answer your question, yes I am clueless to the range of inlines, and will happily admit it. I have only shot traditional and that was in my childhood, you had about 70 yards and that was it, not to mention I barely even remember how to load it. So as not to try to "pull the wool over your eyes" I understand I have a lot to learn and that is why I came here asking for help, instead I found some people willing to actually help me and a bunch of 2nd graders thinkin there going to play on the play ground. Guys, I graduated school a long time ago so lets say we knock off the crap?

Here is a picture of my 7mm long action I finished 2 years ago that can pull a 3 Nickle group at 200 yards in about 20 minutes:

Clueless is a gross understatement....suggest you post less and read more you are correct many here will school you but you need to lose your preconceptions and listen sound advise
Many here are players not fans....listen and learn and you can enter the game instead of watching from the stands dreaming!

BTW shooting at a deer for kicks on a $50 bet with a 30' hold over on a guess with opened sights sums up your mentallity...

I shot a cow elk this year at 70 yds with a traditional ML and a PRB. I considered it the safe limit for the gun and a humane kill.

Go to a modern inline scoped and modern bullets with BH 209, and you can shoot to 200yds. It will still take a well placed shot on the vitals.

Aiming 30 ft over the back is NOT a safe shot in anybodies book. Just reading that is annoying, but i'm still trying to help you. I can only hope you won't take shots like that again.

Go to your local gunshop or cabelas and take a look at the muzzleloaders they have available. I think the aimpoint might be a good idea for a 1x sight. Then go out and practiceand hopefully you learn your gun enough to take 200 yard shots.


ddj

I know more about the vitals of animals then most if not all the people here, I'm a USDA Meat Inspector for hell sakes. Like I said, it was a clean kill and dropped in it's tracks. Not even one step. I know that gun like the back of my hand and I know what it can do and can't. I just didn't kill the deer for no reason, I was on the hunt and it was a good buck, so I took it. Now I really didn't want to walk from the peak of the mountian to the floor then walk over to my truck around the oppisite side of the mountian and that was the main reason I didn't want to shoot it regardless of mount. But for $50 cash right there and bragging rights on a shot I knew I'd hit, well I don't see that that was a bad shoot. Now if you would like to see what is actually a humane kill, well that was a heart shot and far side broken leg. Now if that bothers you I apologize. My question to Old School is this however, if a military sniper shoots a kill shot on a subject (human) at 1.5 miles away is that humane and stupidity? Law states that it is humane and that's why they take the shot.....IMHO

That was years ago and I am a different man now so lets forget about it huh? It's not like I drank a bottle and got into my car.

Anyway, problem here is that I've gone to the local shops but they only have maybe 3 guns in stock because we are in our muzzleloader deer season right now, so they don't want to bring anymore in because they will have to clearance them for the new years models. Cabelas is about 130 miles (one way) away so that is a full days trip, however why go if I can't buy anything because of Christmas and my kids come first before me. Besides I know myself, if I walk into a Cabela's I better have at least $200 on me or I don't go.......LOL

Anyway, if it is an impossible task then I will stop looking, but I think there is something out there for me. Maybe a past model that I would have to buy used or something. In fact, I wouldn't mind buying a used one that a decent person has tested and narrowed down the bullets and powder to at least give me an idea to what to start with. Again, I don't have anything so I have to start with nothing. It's not like I have some old stock sitting around that I could try, I'm going to have to buy each and everything and waste a lot of time to even get started. Now to me that's a lot of shots that hurt like hell that I would like to not have to do.

Then again I can see there are a few of powders out there and bullets people like. So see I'm paying attention.


dvdegorge<--- I've killed more animals then you can even dream of. I do it every day. Doesn't matter, I've been secsessful all my life with exception of a single special draw hunt area that the animals where not in at the time of the hunt. 70 yards was a clean paper shot for me at the time, I was only a child like I said. What do you want from me?

Congratulations on your great knowledge.

Really, what did you expect? At 800 yards with a 30 ft. holdover you would have missed the animal, you'd still be about 12 ft. low. TOF is nearly 2 seconds, with a 170 grain bullet you're down to 850 fps and 273 fpe. 10 mph wind drift would be over 158 inches.

There is no one that could possibly help you: I'd be wasting your valuable time.