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I'm suggesting the read to you because it will show the 1911 was not the only handgun design intended from its inception and design for combat use.

Is it s good one? You betcha.
Is it the only one? Not even close.

When one is considering CCW, the baseline for this entire thread, whether or not a handgun was designed from the start for military combat use is not the primary consideration to be addressed. But if one wishes to use the factual testing and experience of how a particular model fared in military/LE combat, well, that's a very prudent step. Knowledge helps make better decisions.
But we can never confuse the needs of military/LE with the average citizen CCW holder's needs. They are quite different by nature.

WTM45,

Always keep in mind that authors create to make $$$. Such books are much different from professional journals.


R

The 9mm Parabellum was designed just for Combat and War

WTM45,

What's your preferred source of info on the topic?


R

Jeez... I'm suggesting the read because of the experience and knowledge of the particular author. It is a good read, not biased by any manufacturer or advertisement stipends that I could note.
It was not intended to be insulting, but to be a sharing of resource information.

I'm not sure you're correct. The 9MM was originally known as the 9MM Luger. I'm not sure when parabellum was attached to the cartridge and why. It was first used in combat in WWII, and I believe it was used as a submachine gun cartridge. So was parabellum attached to it due to its submachine gun use?

I don't believe it was designed as a handgun combat cartridge. But I might be wrong. If you know of primary source documents that support your theory, I'd love to peruse them.


Buena Suerte,

R

A close family member who not only faced the elephant in Bitche, France, but chased its rampaging ass clear to Heidelberg.

My own outgoing and incoming fire paled in comparison to his. So I listen, I read what others have experienced and I adapt.

WTM45,

That's why it's crucial to know sources of "information" before concluding validity. If it's knowledge I'm after, I prefer journals such as the "FBI Law Enforcment Bulletin" which are more likely to contain knowledge while "Guns and Ammo" contains entertainment.


Buena Suerte,

R

WTM45,

Just friendly advice: when resorting to extremism when arguing a point you risk losing credibility.

Jus' sayin'...



R

You trust all .gov stats?
HA!

Best get up to speed on the history of the 9MM first, my friend!

9�19mm Parabellum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"9mm" redirects here. For other cartridges with 9mm bullets, see 9 mm caliber. For other uses, see 9mm (disambiguation).
9�19mm Parabellum

9�19mm Parabellum FMJ (left) and hollowpoint (right) rounds
Type Handgun
Place of origin German Empire
Service history
Used by NATO and others
Wars World War I�present
Production history
Designer Georg Luger
Designed 1901
Produced 1902�present
Variants 9 mm NATO
9�19mm Parabellum +P
9�19mm 7N21 +P+
9�19mm 7N31 +P+
Specifications
Parent case 7.65�21mm Parabellum
Case type Rimless, tapered
Bullet diameter 9.03 mm (0.356 in)
Neck diameter 9.65 mm (0.380 in)
Base diameter 9.93 mm (0.391 in)
Rim diameter 9.96 mm (0.392 in)
Rim thickness 0.90 mm (0.035 in)
Case length 19.15 mm (0.754 in)
Overall length 29.69 mm (1.169 in)
Case capacity 0.862 cm� (13 gr H2O)
Primer type Berdan or Boxer small pistol
Maximum pressure 235.00 MPa (34,084 psi)
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
7.45 g (115.0 gr) FMJ 390 m/s (1,300 ft/s) 570 J (420 ft�lbf)
8.04 g (124.1 gr) FMJ 360 m/s (1,200 ft/s) 518 J (382 ft�lbf)
9.50 g (146.6 gr) JHP 368 m/s (1,210 ft/s) 643 J (474 ft�lbf)
7.45 g (115.0 gr) JHP +P 411 m/s (1,350 ft/s) 632 J (466 ft�lbf)
7.45 g (115.0 gr) JHP +P+ 435 m/s (1,430 ft/s) 704 J (519 ft�lbf)
Source(s): Sellier & Bellot,[1] Vihtavuori Reloading Guide 2009,[2] Buffalo Bore,[3] C.I.P.,[4] Cor-Bon[5]
The 9�19mm Parabellum (abbreviated 9mm, 9�19mm or 9�19) cartridge was designed by Georg Luger and introduced in 1902 by the German weapons manufacturer Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) for their Luger semi-automatic pistol.[6] For this reason, it is commonly called the 9 mm Luger cartridge, differentiating it from the also-popular 9mm Makarov and 9mm Browning (.380 ACP) cartridges.
The book Cartridges of the World stated in 2006 that the 9�19mm Parabellum is "the world's most popular and widely used military handgun cartridge."[7]
The name Parabellum is derived from the Latin: Si vis pacem, para bellum ("If you seek peace, prepare for war"), which was the motto of DWM.
In addition to being used by over 60% of police in the U.S., Newsweek credits 9�19 pistol sales with making semi-automatic pistols more popular than revolvers.[8] The popularity of this cartridge can be attributed to the widely held conviction that it is highly effective in police and self-defense use.[9] Its low cost and wide availability (subject to jurisdiction) are self-sustaining contributors to the caliber's continuing popularity.

You gotta explain that one. If by "extremism" you are referring to actual military combat experience, then yes. It is quite extreme.

I care very little if you feel I am credible. I have nothing to prove. I am but another poster on a website.
I'm just another face in the crowd.

Sorry, but that�s just not true. The Beretta was not only developed as a military arm, but specifically with the US military in mind; it was not designed to be a cop�s gun (not that it matters one bit). Beretta had been winning US pistol evaluations with the 92 since 1976 and they worked closely with US procurement to develop the 92 as the US military saw fit. You need to study the history of that weapon a bit. It started as the 951 which was 100% military pistol (and a damn good one at that). Then they did a major re-design to make it DA, changed it to a frame mounted safety, high capacity magazine and an aluminum frame. Next came the same gun with a slide mounted safety. Then came the addition of a firing pin block. Then finally a redesign of the grip and trigger guard, which became the M9. All of these changes were at the suggestion of the US Military.

Sentiment aside, the Beretta 92 has had its issues, but these days it�s a solid gun. Are there better guns? Sure, depending on the person and situation.

Oodles of semi auto pistols were created with military or law enforcement in mind; that�s where the real money is.

Kevin,

You could be right. What I do know is that it was used as a police weapon before it was adopted by our military.

In contrast, the 1911A1 was designed to meet the US Army's specifications for a suitable combat sidearm. The 9MM was examined and discarded as being insufficient to meet the army's combat requirements. And from what I understand, the US Army is reverting to the 1911A1.

While the 9MM was once all the rage in law enforcement, when I retired from that gig, many agencies were discarding it for the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Keeping in mind that my first issued weapon was a Model 15, that agency no longer allows revolvers, and .40 S&W is minimum. And after the infamous North Hollywood shootout, LAPD authorized carry of the .45ACP. My last duty weapon was an H&K USP .45ACP, which I didn't much care for because it's huge. I would have rather reverted to my P-229 in .40 S&W.

While the .45ACP was designed to be a combat sidearm, I don't believe the 9MM was. But I might be wrong. Either way, it ain't much a good combat caliber. I ain't heard the same about the .45ACP.


Buena Suerte,

R

You know what I love about those older Colts? I love the small, very subtle roll stamping on the sides of the slide, and the little rampant colt. They had taste back then and didn�t make the beautiful slab sides of the slide a giant billboard. Take a look at all makers of just about all pistols, each has like 20pt font size on the slides of their guns. Now on something as ugly as a Glock or an M&P that�s fine, but when you have a nicely blued 1911 why the hell do they have to ruin it with all that large writing on the side? Very classy gun my friend�wanna trade?

No they're not. I have a friend in military procurement and they simply won't even consider a 1911; it's obsolete in their opinion.

The 9mm was intended from the getgo as a combat cartridge, Parabellum roughly means "for war"

This is extremism...unless it's true, which I doubt.

Wrong you are.

The 9MM has released more souls from their earthly bodies than the .45ACP, that's a fact.

Doubt seems to be something you are very good at. But you can bet the farm on what I say as being gospel.

Enjoy your retirement from LE. You deserve it. I mean it.

I remember reading that the 9mm was designed to cause massive numbers of wounded enemies so as to slow down unwounded enemy forces in caring for them.