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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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As for the IWBA, contact Dr. Gary K. Roberts, he is more than glad to share what he and his peers have. many of their articles and studies can be found at firearmstactical.net. They seem to have ended the majority of their web presence, but Dr. Roberts is still very active in the field.
Firearmstactical.net is not frequented by Dr. Roberts much any more. He and I both moved to the M4carbine.net forums a couple of years ago after the website owner at the other site started slandering one of the best trainers in the industry. If you go to http://www.m4carbine.net/forum.php and then scroll down to the "Terminal Ballistics Information" forum you'll find a very good set of "stickies" by Dr. Roberts. He updates his information pretty regularly. He posts under the handle DocGKR, I post under DrJSW. I don't visit that site as much as I used to, but it's still a very good source for terminal ballistics info with a very low BS factor.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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Training your mind is more important than training with your firearm, but training with your firearm is by no means unimportant. Nothing to disagree with there. Icing on a cake is better than just the cake. Reality is, though, that most folks who have a gun for crime defense won't train beyond making sure they know how to load and fire it, and for most, that's good enough.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Maybe I missed it, but don't think anyone has mentioned the great work of Masaad Ayoob on what actually works? Might be showing my age. Mas is a great guy and very, very intelligent. He doesn't represent himself as a ballistics expert, but when he advised people on what to carry lately, he's deferred to Dr. Roberts' advice on this topic, which is pretty much the industry standard.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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DocRocket, I follow your stuff on Lightfighter, and have exchanged emails with Dr. Roberts here and there. I didnt mention Lightfighter here, as I don't think this is the type of audience that would frequent, and I had forgotten about M4C. Thank you.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I agree, lightfighter and M4Carbine are aimed at a different audience. People who really want to get into this subject will like it, though.
I really try to avoid getting into these debates here on 24HCF, for the same reason I avoid giving singing lessons to pigs. But Kevin seems to bring up some good questions, and sometimes I just can't stop posting when someone posts a viewpoint that I fear is going to get someone else injured or killed.
My bad, I guess.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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Doc, I don't remember where I heard it, but one of the major trainers said that your survival in an armed confrontation depends upon 4 factors: 1. Your skill 2. Your luck 3. Your adversary's skill 4. Your adversary's luck You only have the ability to influence one of those 4. I haven't heard that one before, gmoats, but it's pretty apt! Folks who disparage training are usually people who haven't been involved in a real world shooting scenario. I train with and provide training to LEOs as a sideline business. Many of the guys I train and train with, perhaps even the majority, have been in at least one officer-involved shooting. All have close personal knowledge of at least one OIS involving someone they know very well. I commented to one class I was teaching about this interesting bit of trivia. One of the guys in the class responded thusly: "I survived my shooting, but I realized immediately that it was as much due to luck as it was to my skill with my firearm. I realized that if I ever got into a shooting situation again, I wanted to reduce my reliance on luck as much as possible, and the best way to do that was to increase my skill with my firearms and my ability to fight effectively. That's why I train like I do." That cop, and others like him, spend their own time and money to get better training because they've seen the elephant and they don't want to have to rely on luck to win next time around. Doc, After careful observation and consideration, I've come to the conclusion that you kinda know your chit!!
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Doc, I don't remember where I heard it, but one of the major trainers said that your survival in an armed confrontation depends upon 4 factors: 1. Your skill 2. Your luck 3. Your adversary's skill 4. Your adversary's luck You only have the ability to influence one of those 4. I haven't heard that one before, gmoats, but it's pretty apt! Folks who disparage training are usually people who haven't been involved in a real world shooting scenario. I train with and provide training to LEOs as a sideline business. Many of the guys I train and train with, perhaps even the majority, have been in at least one officer-involved shooting. All have close personal knowledge of at least one OIS involving someone they know very well. I commented to one class I was teaching about this interesting bit of trivia. One of the guys in the class responded thusly: "I survived my shooting, but I realized immediately that it was as much due to luck as it was to my skill with my firearm. I realized that if I ever got into a shooting situation again, I wanted to reduce my reliance on luck as much as possible, and the best way to do that was to increase my skill with my firearms and my ability to fight effectively. That's why I train like I do." That cop, and others like him, spend their own time and money to get better training because they've seen the elephant and they don't want to have to rely on luck to win next time around. Doc, After careful observation and consideration, I've come to the conclusion that you kinda know your chit!! Chance favors the prepared mind....it a good quote and I dont know who the give the credit to
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Thanks, Kevin. I know a bit, but the more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...st-in-minn-is-beaten-with-her-own-taser/She was saved because the guy couldn't operate the safety! The moral of this story is that the bad guy is not always impressed because you have a badge, uniform or weapons. whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Too counter anecdotes with anecdotes, I have shot three dogs in my career. Two with a .45, one with a 9mm. The two .45 hits were with Gold Dot, one 230gr, and the other with 200gr +P.
One was a straight on chest cavity shot, and a follow up shoulder shot. I chased the dog nearly three miles before I lost it. There was more blood than I though possible.
The second, with the 200gr +P was a solid shoulder shot, from above, facing toward me. Entered high left shoulder, exited right armpit. Dog continued to try to bite me, and had to be kicked off of me. He ran several blocks before expiring.
The last was shot with a 9mm Winchester Ranger-T 124gr. Much the same shot as above, little lower on the shoulder. The dog continued toward me, then collpased about a foot from me, still trying to bite me. It was dead within 30 seconds.
You know what the moral of the story is?
I need to start shooting dogs in the head. I took a Statistics class that mentioned that to be valid a sample size should be one hundred or at the very least forty. The moral of the story is that you need to shoot 197 more dogs before you can make any assumptions about 9mm vs .45 ACP as a dog stopper. whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Chance favors the prepared mind....it a good quote and I dont know who the give the credit to Under Siege II: Dark Territory. Never really worked for me without Erica Elaniac... This just reminded me of the pocket pistol thread...
Last edited by supercrewd; 10/26/11.
NRA Life Member
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I shot a stray cat with a 45 ACP and got an instant kill. I shot a big pregnant barn cat with a +P 38 Remington Golden Sabre 125 gr. Hollow Point which crawled under a hay bale and died. The moral of this story is that I need to shoot 198 more cats before I can make any assumptions about handgun effectiveness on cats. (statistically valid assumptions) whelennnut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
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George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Chance favors the prepared mind....it a good quote and I dont know who the give the credit to Under Siege II: Dark Territory. Never really worked for me without Erica Elaniac... This just reminded me of the pocket pistol thread... She only has a few options when it comes to concealment, but I'm OK with that. whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
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Concealment? Heck, she could be holding a RPG and no one would notice.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense. Robert Frost
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Welcome back, JOG. You were missed. I always enjoy your posts, like the one above, and often learn something useful. E
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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She was in the 1st Under Seige movie, not Under Seige II, not that it matters, she's still easy on the eyes.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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For me, after reading this post with interest, I need a firearm that I can shoot and handle well, given the amount of shooting that I am able to do as a civilian, with a real job and real family and ammo that costs real money. So, for me, I have settled on 9mm for my CCW firearms. They are slightly different, but similar. I have a Kahr PM9 for warm weather or deeper concealment and a M&P 9mm for when I am dressed to conceal a weapon of that size. I prefer the S&W, as I am a better shot with it, but can do passably with the little Kahr as well. I have a J-frame with a bobbed hammer that I will rarely drop in a pocket holster for a quick trip out but I don't carry it on a regular basis. I rarely carry multiple magazines, especially with the M&P, occasionally with the Kahr. Just what works for me.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661 |
For me, after reading this post with interest, I need a firearm that I can shoot and handle well, given the amount of shooting that I am able to do as a civilian, with a real job and real family and ammo that costs real money. So, for me, I have settled on 9mm for my CCW firearms. They are slightly different, but similar. I have a Kahr PM9 for warm weather or deeper concealment and a M&P 9mm for when I am dressed to conceal a weapon of that size. I prefer the S&W, as I am a better shot with it, but can do passably with the little Kahr as well. I have a J-frame with a bobbed hammer that I will rarely drop in a pocket holster for a quick trip out but I don't carry it on a regular basis. I rarely carry multiple magazines, especially with the M&P, occasionally with the Kahr. Just what works for me. Sounds pretty reasonable to me; some good choices there.
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Campfire Tracker
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She was in the 1st Under Seige movie, not Under Seige II, not that it matters, she's still easy on the eyes. I realize that, I did say it was not the same without her! Wanna argue about penetration factors?
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