Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns '86 miami shootout

Doc, we are talking about the Miami shoot out. In Cooper's words Platt's "poodle shooter" was able to function pretty well in close quarters. I am just extending that line of thought with this discussion. I see pretty much all of the LEO's using the M4 these days, so if all the modern technique has evolved from this incident, then the M4 in LEO's hands has certainly come from that as well. A light easily controllable, forward optic rifle is what Cooper advocated. I know he did not like the .223.

If every LEO must be an equal to Jeff Cooper, well then we have some pretty well trained officers out there.

It matters because Jeff Cooper coined AND DEFINED the term, and that is part of the definition. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but you can't argue what the definition is 'cause you didn't originate it.

Hey, I'm not saying y'all can't discuss it here... I just thought/think it's an interesting question and I'd like to hear what other folks might have to say.

Cooper didn't like the 223 in no small part because the 55 gr FMJ ammo at the time he was writing about scout rifles wasn't a particularly good round compared to what we have today. Of course, he was steeped in the tradition and lore of WWII and the Korean War, and as such was totally convinced of the superiority of the .30-06/.308 battle rifle round over the proven-anemic M1 Carbine; the .223 was a "carbine round" in his writing, IIRC, and as such equivalent to the .30 Carbine FMJ. It didn't help any that the M16A1 was/is a bigger and less CQB-friendly rifle than the M4 used today.

In the past 10 years, our guys in The Sandbox have been using the M4 in situations from CQB to 300 meters. The ammunition our guys have today is orders of magnitude better than 55 gr ball. I think that, whatever Cooper's view of the .223 was, it is being used as a de facto "scout rifle" today, both overseas and in LE situations in the CONUS.

A properly built Ar-15/M-16 is capable of 1/2 MOA accuracy, so 1 shot kills are easily obtain with faster repeat shots for quicker target acquisition and a large magazine capacity. Also faster to reload when the need arises

I doubt Cooper meant eye socket shots, or a .22 lr would qualify too.

The 6.8 and the 6.5 Grendal in the AR platform was my thinking. I have one in 6.8 and LIKE IT VERY MUCH. Way better than a 223

A little dogmatic, don�t you think? I don�t know if Jeff Cooper had a trademark on the name �Scout Rifle,� but I can make up my own definition of �scout rifle� anytime I want to. From a dictionary standpoint, �scout rifle� means a �rifle� a �scout� can use. That would seem to vary with the �rifle� the particular �scout� would need to use. A scout in Miami doesn�t need the same thing a scout in the middle of nowhere in Africa would need.

I'm not aware of the term "Scout Rifle" being in common usage, anywhere, by anyone, until the COL both coined and defined the term, it is what it is, and what you think means nothing. Dogmatic? Ya think? You obviously didn't read much of what Cooper wrote, I suggest you do so in order to appear somewhat less silly in the future.

Ah, no, he "meant" 308 Winchester/7.62mm x 51mm NATO. He said exactly that about 20 million times. He opined that the 7/08 was a good substitute only in countries where it was illegal to own a 308.

I prefer to revel in my ignorance than get bogged down in semantics.

I will join you...

A wise old fella I once knew said "when you hear hoofbeats, don't look for Zebras."

Makes no difference the caliber that someone else stated, a 6.8 or 6.5 Grendel in a AR platform is a much better choice for use against hostiles than any bolt action in whatever caliber

Sure. In those calibers, you're getting there.

Nope, he liked the .30-30, too, in the Winchester Model 94, with a forward scope.

How this morphed from a discussion on the Miami incident to a debate on Scout rifles, I will never know. What is even more amazing, however, is that ANYONE actually thinks a Scout rifle belongs anywhere near an LE situation such as the Miami incident.

Agreed on the latter, but as to the former, discussions morph from one topic to another around a campfire all the time. Isn't this supposed to be like an e-campfire?

Let me ask a question here. If just one of those agents had been armed with a Scout Rifle and was positioned say 75-100 yds. away, do you think he could have stopped any of the bad guys ?
You guys spend too much time thinking inside of little boxes and arguing the hair splitting details. E

Our enemy's have been using Scout Rifles for a long time the AK-47

[quote=Eremicus] Let me ask a question here. If just one of those agents had been armed with a Scout Rifle and was positioned say 75-100 yds. away, do you think he could have stopped any of the bad guys ?

Sure, as would have an AR. Given that the fire fight occured after a car chase. Posting a sniper 100 yds away wasn't an option. At about 15 feet ( the real world distance of this fight) which would you prefer a bolt action deer rifle or an AR? The problem with the scout is that you have to dream up perfect situations to justify it! How many real world gun fights are going to happen at 100 yds in a suburban setting? Even if it does that's still well within an AR's range. A bolt action 308 deer rifle makes no sence until out past 300 yds and at that distance a true sniper rifle may or may not be a better option. Mr. Cooper was a great American but imo time had past him by. As was already mentioned the idea of a bolt action rifle in a non sniping situation being ideal is romantic but not realistic.