Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles A Girl, An Elk, A 243 Win/105VLD and 688yds makes elk steaks

Mr. Burns:

You seemed to miss my point(s)...the 105 gr. 243 bullet has approximately 600lbs. of energy left at 700 yards [presuming the 3100 FPS Maximum velocity at the muzzle: source Nosler #4 Manual].

That isn't enough energy to kill CONSISTENTLY at that range.

Yes, one can HIT the target - like a steel gong - at that range, but that's not what I am talking about. I am pointing out that killing consistently is not likely, and is more UNLIKELY, using 600 lbs of energy.

The statistics I am referring to is the probability of any shooter doing so with that respective bullet at that respective range and respective impact velocity for 10 of 10 or even 5 of 10 attempts. It's NOT discussing using the .243 at ANY i.e. shorter range(s) to kill elk; we are discussing it's use at 700 yards...

One or two kills, are case studies, and not a controlled study.

A controlled study, typically with an N=30 or more, will allow for statistical significance , or no significance. So, even 10 consecutive kills is not sufficient for subjecting data to a t-test for significance. A survey of hunters [30 or more] who have done the above, not excluding the misses and wounded eld i.e. including them, will need to be conducted and the data sujected to analysis for significance.

Do you see where we are going...? (No GPS or range finder needed.)

In other words, if you have them, post 10 more consecutive elk kill videos from the same shooter with the same range and the same bullet. Then get 20 more, or a few less. Then, we look at analysis.

And, NO, I don't speak for Mr. Rodriguez, he spoke for himself in his recent article on limits to long range hunting (and NOT with small[er] calibers such as the .243.

I would be remiss if you have access to a better protocol than the Optimum Game Weight Formula (OGW) re lbs of energy need for consistent kills, then please introduce it. The OGW is proven superior to the Taylor Knockdown formula; neither one is perfect or without exception. However, statistics is about the rule and the exception...and what happens the most typically is the rule.

Mr. Burns:

You seemed to miss my point(s)...the 105 gr. 243 bullet has approximately 600lbs. of energy left at 700 yards [presuming the 3100 FPS Maximum velocity at the muzzle: source Nosler #4 Manual].

That isn't enough energy to kill CONSISTENTLY at that range.

Yes, one can HIT the target - like a steel gong - at that range, but that's not what I am talking about. I am pointing out that killing consistently is not likely, and is more UNLIKELY, using 600 lbs of energy.

The statistics I am referring to is the probability of any shooter doing so with that respective bullet at that respective range and respective impact velocity for 10 of 10 or even 5 of 10 attempts. It's NOT discussing using the .243 at ANY i.e. shorter range(s) to kill elk; we are discussing it's use at 700 yards...

One or two kills, are case studies, and not a controlled study.

A controlled study, typically with an N=30 or more, will allow for statistical significance , or no significance. So, even 10 consecutive kills is not sufficient for subjecting data to a t-test for significance. A survey of hunters [30 or more] who have done the above, not excluding the misses and wounded eld i.e. including them, will need to be conducted and the data sujected to analysis for significance.

Do you see where we are going...? (No GPS or range finder needed.)

In other words, if you have them, post 10 more consecutive elk kill videos from the same shooter with the same range and the same bullet. Then get 20 more, or a few less. Then, we look at analysis.

And, NO, I don't speak for Mr. Rodriguez, he spoke for himself in his recent article on limits to long range hunting (and NOT with small[er] calibers such as the .243.

I would be remiss if you have access to a better protocol than the Optimum Game Weight Formula (OGW) re lbs of energy need for consistent kills, then please introduce it. The OGW is proven superior to the Taylor Knockdown formula; neither one is perfect or without exception. However, statistics is about the rule and the exception...and what happens the most typically is the rule.

Burns,

Do you tell your shooters to aim for high shoulder? Out of the ones you've seen killed, what was the "worst" angle the animal was at? Do you have any limitations? (like no head on shots, etc)

(I have a box of them and plan on loading them up for deer hunting)

EDITED- Apology sent.

Edited Apology accepted

A bit of stretch for that caliber/cartridge in my book, but it looks like it worked.

A 105gr Berger VLD at 3100 fps mv will retain about 2140 fps/1068 ft-lbs at 700 yards, at 5000' el.

It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?

My hat is off to Mr Burns and his Daughter.

I would have thought that you would know about Greybull Precision since they sponsor the Custom Rifles & Wildcats Forum..
I see now that you only joined this site in May of this year (789 posts already?) so you must have missed the welcoming committee rants about his over priced rifles and stupid custom LR scopes...
I am surpised Burns doesn't give it up, as he must know by now that he is not welcome around here...

Nrut- John is welcome here anytime! His knowledge is greatly appreciated by me and many others. If you don't like what he has to say don't read it or respond.
Calvin- The 105VLD is an amazing 6mm bullet. Why not load some up and test it for yourself. I wouldnt hesitate to use it on a deer at 500.

Congrats to the young lady on a great shot and clean ethical kill.

805,
I was being sarcastic!
jeeze!

Now that the uproar has died a bit.... great vid, coaching,enabling and etc John Burns most impressive.Congrats to the lady on a fine shot. What I would like to know is what magnification do you use on shots like this and your antelope etc. Thinking I would like to set up a rifle for up to 1000 and shoot some steel build some skills at extended distance for just the fun of LR shooting. Magnum Man

Nrut I apologize. I didn't detect that.

John your welcome. Again thanks for all the help on the stock. Just loaded some 105vld to test in my 243ai. What powder were you using?

John, how much time did the gal put in behind the rifle prior to taking her out hunting?

MontanaMarine:

As I noted, Nosler #4 doesn't show that speed for a 105 gr. 243 bullet (I quoted the 100 grain Partition from Nosler) ....but if Berger says it is going that fast its news to me....2140 FPS for the Berger is what a 100 gr. Partition is doing at 400 yards.

The Berger bullet is moving nearly twice as far [allegedly] i.e. to 700 compared to the Partition speed at 400 yards...hmmm interesting physics.

Has anyone shot the Berger through a chronograph at 700 yards @ 5000 feet elev.to prove that? I mean, besides John Burns' crew...