Short video of elk hunt from this weekend. These elk have been hunted all fall and are pretty wary.

This was the third time we setup on the herd and the first chance she had for a shot. I uploaded the video at full HD.

Real cool!!!.....congrats to the young lady!

Thanks John. That's great.

Nice, congrats to her.

Very nice shooting! Congratulations to her!

Jeeeezusss. I'm a believer. John what do you start the VLDs at?

Great Video! Congrats to her.

When is the next video coming out? What are you doing throwing all this good footage away?...

Great shooting. That elk wanted no part of that 243.

Congrats to Kassandra. The rifle and scope are highly tuned machines that certainly show what they are capable of. A video version of "Busting the Magnum Myth"?

Wow. nice shot.

I can't believe a .243 could do that.

Nice! Thanks for posting that little blurb. I enjoyed it.

That is awesome!

+1

What a way to get your 1st elk!

I am on the same page you are....

Doc

Wow! Nicely done! That was impressive!

Thanks for all the nice comments.

Okay I know all the nice was for her.

Well you - or someone else obviously worked with her so she made a heck of a shot. Betting she remembers that for a lifetime!

Don't think I could make that shot right now - caliber be damned.

That was an awsome shot, where did the bullet hit? high shoulder?

I'm impressed, tell me more about the scope. Must have had turrets.

ya John, where was the point of impact for such an immediate knockdown? She did good.

Excellent!

Very Nice

Looks like a classic shoulder/spine shot to me. They tend go down first in the rear end like that.

Well done!

awesome shot and very impressive knock down..A+++++

High shoulder.



Yes the scope had turrets.

Way cool!

I liked watching the little pill's vapor trail smash into the cow.

Heck of a shot.

Curious - what was the windage call? Sounded like it was blowing some but hard to say - microphone could be making it sound worse than it was.

Well, I guess that answers the question on whether or not a 25-06 is enough for elk. If I hadn't watched it, I wouldn't of believed it.

Well, I'm impressed!

Great shot and coaching!

I'd have used dots and a Core-lokt.....

Nice

Greybull scope & 243WIN. Good stuff !

Obviously a fake. Everybody knows elk live in the timber, and .243s bounce off.

Wow, Great shot! Thanks for sharing the video, loved watching it in high quality.

Wow that's crazy !

Congratulations

Definitely pretty cool... congrats all around...

thanks for posting a nice high quality video also..

"thanks for posting a nice high quality video also"

Yes, the clarity made it easy to see the bullet trace - very cool. Congrats to the young hunter and all!

I have one question, did you do that with a fixed 6X scope???

Yes! It dispels the need for magnum cartridges once again. And it shows what a finely tuned high end equipment is capable is doing. Who among us would attempt that shot with an over the counter .243 with an average 3-9 power scope?

John
Shame on you for using a 243 on elk- What would you have done if that young lady had had to take a long shot??

Little more than stunt shooting and certainly can't be called hunting by any means. Not something to be proud of.

Guy from Bama is the worlds foremost authority on western Elk hunting...right

Met John at the wyoming 24hc gathering...he took 6-7 of us out and we were all hitting 600, 700 then 1100 yds...no issues...probably the same .243 in the vid.

Well just exactly how would you propose they shoot the elk in that wide open country if not from long range?

That's a cool video. The 243 is a good killer, no doubt. Those elk sure don't seem hard to kill.

Swampy could have done that shot off hand.. with open sites...

Tom,
That was the same .243 Win you and the other guys shot at the gathering in Wyoming. Still seems to shoot OK.


TG,
3050fps.


Teal,
Where we were setup there was a left to right gusting to about 10mph. In the video you can see the wind in the notch was running the opposite (right to left) from the elks breath.

I figured she would need 2 MOA at the top and told her to hold right in the middle of the elk. If you listen to the wind it drops and the vapor from the elk�s breath drops down right before she shoots. Right before the shot we change to hold to right behind the shoulder and got about 1 MOA of left to right drift.


She was good enough to do it even with substandard equipment.





Would have snuck closer. I had my camo on.



Well I was proud of her. You have yourself a nice day, Ed.

call me crazy but when i see it done, it sorta negates the "you can't do it" crowd.

Most impressive! I love it!

She had a great coach.

every dog has it's day. obviously a spine or head hit. i am a long time elk hunter. don't see whats so special about this. could have just as easily wounded the elk. rather have seen all the misses included in the other two " set-ups "

Doin is better than guessin..

Well that was the first and only shot she has ever fired at a big game animal. Wish I had her record.

I never figured out guys who wanted to see others fail more than they wanted to see success but you are proof such people exist.

Congratulations???

I love these threads
The core-loks & dots comment was charish

Entertaining video... Thanks for posting

John,

You and your friends use the Berger VLDs a lot so I have a question about them working up close. If a cow had presented itself at 25 yards would you still had her shoot high shoulder or would you have her shoot it behind the shoulder?

I am thinking about getting 150 grain .277 Bergers VLD perking in my heavy, very accurate old .270 and where I hunt I am just as likely to shoot at real short range as mid-range 3-400 (to you) distances.

Congrats to the young lady, she put the bullet exactly where it needed to be.

Scott

Only possible with 243 if it's a youth or a woman. For a young woman it's a slam dunk.

and only on cows. bulls are way too tuff to be perforated by the lowly 243 shot by a heavy-handed man.....

Very neatly done John and hunter.
Darn it, now I want to sell my '06's and get told by the experts here that a new .243 won't work.
Heck, even that might be fun. E

You are obviously someone who hasn't read anything about new bullets in the last twenty years. I think JB would have told us if the spine had been severed when the animal was dressed out. Bergers produce what you saw in that video more often than any other bullet.

Beautiful thing... Those 105s. Thanks for the info. I'll have to pop an elk soon this year with one.

Cool video.

Most impressive. Congrats.

TB Baker et al:

I am joining AlabamaEd on this one....

A very experienced shooter was the one to attempt this shot, and to determine the yardage, set the scope, dope the wind...all by herself. BUT....

While Mr. Burns, the guide, did an admirable job, the shooter didn't determine yardage, or set the scope on her own calculation, or dope the wind, and what did she learn to be able to consistently do a shot like this again, or even 80% of the time?

No mention from the guide, either, on practicing this 300-400 rounds or so, before trying it in the field.

While that 105 VLD did it this time, it ain't much of a bullet statistically out of a 243 at near 800 yards to do it 10 times out of 10, or even 5 times out of 10 in a very experienced hand with those yardages and wind conditions.

Read what Greg Rodriguez of Shooting Times magazine has to say of this type of shooting, with far larger calibers than the .243. And, he never met AlabamaEd.

+3 AlabamaEd

Hey, I keep saying that the .243 is just marginal for a big KS whitetail. Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?

John, I can't believe all the negatives about your post that I enjoyed. Maybe the forum needs rules about hunting elk. Yeah, like the government.

Wow! Great shot by the young lady.

Great video and a great shoot, congratulations to the young lady.

Tim

A young lady on the local 4-H shooting team that qualified for state every year that I saw her shoot wore a shirt with pride that read:

"I SHOOT LIKE A GIRL"

I think this young lady could wear that one with pride as well.

Nice shot!

Great video. It amazes me how many people will tell you what they just saw can't be done, and the reasons why. Tim Tebow can't win in the NFL either.

Ya it can be done although the vid appears to be shopped. Not common hunting practices and clearly something for the antis. questionable activities like this are para ethical, just because it is legal and can be done doesn't mean it is right to do it. Clearly not common or a responsible hunting practices nor generally acceptable.

BS. If the shot was 350, and the elk died, would that have been acceptable to you? How about 250? How about 450?

And I have a news flash--the anti's don't think a 30 yard shot is acceptable either, so why do people always worry about what the anti's have to say, and use that as a rationale for what's acceptable?

Almost forgot, congrats to the young lady, and especially to JB for getting her the first big game animal.

Well I won't say this CAN'T be done, as it obviously can, but I would have to ask was there no way to get closer. The thing I personally don't like about this type of "hunting", is that it encourages people to try this type of shot, just to see if they can do it. I have no doubt Mr. Burns is capable of making this shot, but what about the people that can't hit a pie plate at 200 yds. I think there are far more people who Can't make that shot, than those who can. Those are the people I worry about trying that shot and failing, causing a miss at best, or a wounded animal at worst. YMMV

Is the life of an Elk/Deer more worthy than a groundhog/prairie dog? Most would not consider taking a shot at them unless it was a fun (hundreds of yards) distance. What is it that we are protesting here? Just sayin...

Personally speaking I think the life of a game animal is more worthy than a groundhog. This statement is exactly what I'm talking about. Hey there's an elk at 700 yds. lets see if I can hit it. If I mess up and wound the elk, so what, I'll see another one later. Come'on folks, that [bleep] ain't right and you know it. If your expert enough to make that shot, fine. If not you have no business shooting.

For me the bold portion applies regardless of what range the animal is at...YMMV.

I agree with that 100%. I have no problem with experts taking long shots, it's the people that think if he can do that with a 243, just think what I should be able to do with my 7mm Ultra Mag.

Nice shooting young lady! Whats the rifle look like? Total custom job or.....? The recipe for the load?? Scope?

Huh??
Where have you been?

How in the world did you come up with that from what I posted? I am no part of self righteous. I clearly stated if you are CAPABLE of making that shot ,fine. There are people that see that stuff on TV and think because some people can do it, that they should be able to do it, and that's just not true. I personally would not take that shot either, because like you, I don't have the trigger time at those ranges.

I just read the whole thread now, still didnt see anything about the rifle, load, scope, fill me in pls. Oh, Id have used my 6mm and 105AMAXs, hehe

And, the rifle on the bottom of this pic.

The problerm is with those people, not the guy who can and does make the shot.





I'd agree with that, yet there are those who would say a 250 yard shot is "ethical" and a 750 yard shot is "unethical."

Ethical is the distance at which you can place the bullet reliably and make a clean kill. Some can do it at 750, and because others can't, the others label it "unethical" and it's not.

I am not expert enough to make that shot. If I were being mentored/coached by someone who had those skills and they were confident in me, the conditions, the equiptment and were there talking me through the shot maybe. I would prabably say "Hey; look at those Elk!" "How can we get closer?" It does'nt change the fact that there are people who can do this and it is how they choose to hunt. It is fun. At the end of the day we are a bunch of guys who like to wear our hunting clothes, mess with our gadgets, argue scopes/rifles/calibers, roam the woods where others won't go (hopefully) wishing that we could do this everyday, eat on a tailgate or by a fire, spend an hour the night before trying to decide which socks, pants, boots, gloves, coat, hat to wear, and stand leaning at the back of a truck with other hunters yacking because it is fun. Deer camp we pretend for a week that the most important thing in life is pursuing deer. It is fun.

Cripes sakes she made the shot!
By extension with Burns as a spotter / coach she is fully CAPABLE to make the shot..
Neither you nor I know how long that she may have practiced shooting long range..
The jerks that would take that shoot without any long range practice don't need the TV to enable them!
Hell I have a dumb [bleep] neighbor who 32 years ago took a shot at a Ram at what he est. to be 500yds..
I know for a fact he has never shot on paper past 100yds..
He did all that without seeing it on TV!

Like I said, if You are CAPABLE of making that shot, then I don't have a problem with it.

All they say on the video is her first shot at an Elk. Nothing is said about her overall skill.

Understood. I just don't understand why people keep bringing up what idiots who see it on TV may or may not do, what the anti's think of it, etc.

The way I look at it, she's batting 1000.

Knowing what my 6mmRem is capable of(shot a 5.398" 5 shot group @600yds last year)and knowing the distance Id have taken the shot, too. You gotta have the confidence to make a shot like that. A spotter doesnt hurt, either.

I would have thought that you would know about Greybull Precision since they sponsor the Custom Rifles & Wildcats Forum..
I see now that you only joined this site in May of this year (789 posts already?) so you must have missed the welcoming committee rants about his over priced rifles and stupid custom LR scopes...
I am surpised Burns doesn't give it up, as he must know by now that he is not welcome around here...

Congratulations to the young lady is indeed inorder

People wound more animals at close range every year I'm SURE than John has ever seen wounded and not recovered at long range. Seems like "ethical" is all relative on your shooter. Just my 2 cents.

I would like to ask, if recomending an elk rifle to someone, what caliber would you choose? The reason I ask is because it seems like there are 2 extremes and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It seems like some gunwriters want a 338 magnum of some sort and others say a 243/6mm is more than enough. What do ya'll think?

.270, .280, 30-06 etc. Ilove to fish for spotail bass (redfish) and I would recommend a medium heavy rod with 12- 20 lbs test line, but I use a light spinning outfit with 6 lbs line because it makes it more challenging. That makes it fun for me. But I could see it as more challenging to get closer to elk also. But I don't know the reason why they didnt in the video.

I am interested in the �statistics� you speak of concerning the .243 Win/105 VLD. Could you post findings as your �statistics� are contrary to mine? I have only seen a dozen or so elk killed with the 243 Win/105 VLD so my sample is not overly large.

The 243 Win/105 VLD is a proven elk killer in the hands of a decent shooter. While this is getting out to edge of my comfort level with the combo another friend of mine killed her bull elk this year at 760yds with one shot through the shoulder.



I was not aware you spoke for Greg or that he has a problem with my video. As he is a forum member here did you have a discussion with him over PM?



AlabamaEd,

You sure are a peach.

Burns,

Do you tell your shooters to aim for high shoulder? Out of the ones you've seen killed, what was the "worst" angle the animal was at? Do you have any limitations? (like no head on shots, etc)

(I have a box of them and plan on loading them up for deer hunting)

EDITED- Apology sent.

Edited Apology accepted

"DWD" (darn well done) John and company.

Proves what good equipment and good coaching can do.

Dober

From my experience, yeah that would of done the trick as well. Good call...

Dober

Id have more posts than that but I forget my old username. So if I go to Greybull theyll have all the info there? Not that it matters, Im sure she was using Leupold scope, Mcmillan stock, of course that godawful 243Winny, maybe a PacNor barrel mated to a Remington action? All hideous things for sure.

John, 6K for your rifles, Ill take one, thats cheap, LOL. How does that young ladies rifle group out to 600yds(MOA)?

B&C stock, or the more gooder H-S Precision?

Thanks John, nice video.

Congratulations to the young lady on her Elk.

Thanks for doing your part in the outdoor shooting/hunting industry.

A bit of stretch for that caliber/cartridge in my book, but it looks like it worked.

The shot was made and was successful; this is indisputable. Many people like to hunt this way and, I suppose, it's OK. I do not. I would not even attempt such a shot though I am fairly certain I could make it. I shoot quite a bit at long range and I have a half dozen "F" class rifles in the vault but I'm one of those guys who doesn't remember the "X" I fired nearly as vividly as I remember the "8" that should have been an "X". I shoot a lot at 6 inch plates. If I can't ALWAYS hit that plate, I'm not likely to take such a shot at an animal. I have occasionally missed the plate at 400 meters so I'll always want to be closer than that. That's just my choice. In the end it just shows we all have our own ideas as to what is "right". GD

Love it - Congrats to her & you John!!

+1 greydog

You try a Greybull stock and you'll spit on anything H&S makes. He got the ergonomics dead nuts on that stock. Also, I don't believe he has any former FBI assassins in his employ.

Mr. Burns:

You seemed to miss my point(s)...the 105 gr. 243 bullet has approximately 600lbs. of energy left at 700 yards [presuming the 3100 FPS Maximum velocity at the muzzle: source Nosler #4 Manual].

That isn't enough energy to kill CONSISTENTLY at that range.

Yes, one can HIT the target - like a steel gong - at that range, but that's not what I am talking about. I am pointing out that killing consistently is not likely, and is more UNLIKELY, using 600 lbs of energy.

The statistics I am referring to is the probability of any shooter doing so with that respective bullet at that respective range and respective impact velocity for 10 of 10 or even 5 of 10 attempts. It's NOT discussing using the .243 at ANY i.e. shorter range(s) to kill elk; we are discussing it's use at 700 yards...

One or two kills, are case studies, and not a controlled study.

A controlled study, typically with an N=30 or more, will allow for statistical significance , or no significance. So, even 10 consecutive kills is not sufficient for subjecting data to a t-test for significance. A survey of hunters [30 or more] who have done the above, not excluding the misses and wounded eld i.e. including them, will need to be conducted and the data sujected to analysis for significance.

Do you see where we are going...? (No GPS or range finder needed.)

In other words, if you have them, post 10 more consecutive elk kill videos from the same shooter with the same range and the same bullet. Then get 20 more, or a few less. Then, we look at analysis.

And, NO, I don't speak for Mr. Rodriguez, he spoke for himself in his recent article on limits to long range hunting (and NOT with small[er] calibers such as the .243.

I would be remiss if you have access to a better protocol than the Optimum Game Weight Formula (OGW) re lbs of energy need for consistent kills, then please introduce it. The OGW is proven superior to the Taylor Knockdown formula; neither one is perfect or without exception. However, statistics is about the rule and the exception...and what happens the most typically is the rule.

The way I see it, you're the one making the assertions here, namely that the cartridge/bullet/shooter is inadequate to consistently kill elk at a given distance.

So the way I see it, it's up to you to provide data to support your assertion, not the other way around.

So where's your data?

Also, the way I see it, whether Burns has 10 kills to his credit or one kill to his credit, those are data points and you have zero data points. If Burns has less than a sample of 30 (10), and you want to call his data statistically insignificant, what do you call your data set with zero data points?


Besides, what are your credentials as a long-range hunting or precision shooting expert? Aren't you the one who opined on another thread that choosing the right sized bushing for a bushing die depended on the diameter of the "chamber's respective neck size??" I've only been re-loading for a few years, but even I could see the error in that.

A 105gr Berger VLD at 3100 fps mv will retain about 2140 fps/1068 ft-lbs at 700 yards, at 5000' el.

What the hell does foot pounds of enrgy have to do with anything? I mean why even mention FE

I could give a schitt less.

BS has been ranting on FPE and I thought it a bit funny he didn't even have that correct.

Well Bowhunters are obviously unethical too..

At 688 yards, the 105 started at 3100 would be at 1900 fps.

For a control group, maybe someone should shoot some elk or elk-sized animals at 50 yards with some of that ammo loaded at 1900 fps.

Of course not all should be shot in the same place. Some in the shoulder blade, some in the heart/lungs, some a little far back to simulate the possibility of not being able to judge the wind perfectly.

At 688, a 200 grainer out of a .300 WM started at 2900 would be traveling at the same velocity as the .243 caliber 105 grain bullet; 1900.

Maybe load some up at 1900 and shoot the same test at 50 yards.

Compare results?

I for one, never pull the trigger without first consulting the proper case study.

GMAFB!

It is obvious a 243 can kill an elk, but that doesn't mean it isn't a stunt especially at long range. If a 243 is the end all, then why does Mr. Burns himself offer larger chamberings?

Cause their are doubters willing to spend moolah????

There are bigger critters than elk?

Perhaps I missed it but, where did Burns or anyone else say that the 243 is the end all?

Dober

Now that was funny

He didn't

I used a 105 vld from my 243 to shoot a little buck this year. It worked well, I'll be using them again. My load clocks 3080 from my 26" 8 twist brux.

Bb

Why such a discourse with John Burns, we woulld never to this to Mule Deer (JB)

Doc

I offer the following...If Buckeye thinks his "600" FPE is not enough for ELK @ 688 yds.... then he should feel totally comfortable standing in front of JB @ 1400 yds and the .243...it should just bounce off his LL Bean sweater.

IMO...

If the lady has developed the skills to consistently make that shot on game including calculating all the dope and making the adjustments, I tip my hat.

If her involvement was just pressing the trigger, it was a stunt.

Maybe at sea level.

Not much in WY under 5K ASL.

If you think John Burns killing an elk at 688 yards with a 243 is a stunt, you oughta see the boys that go buy a 300 WSM because the gun mags are raving about it, puts a $700 scope on it, and shoots a half a box of shells trying to get it sighted in. Then, they shoot at every legal deer they see out to 800 yards, running or standing or in a herd. Now thats a stunt! Bet they wound more deer in one season than John Burns does in ten years.

Quit talking sense...it confuses those that have not BTDT...(note to say I have not shot a Cow Elk with a .243 from 688 yds) not that I wouldn't with the right setup and range time.

I believe John Burns has put his time in, however he didn't make this particular shot.

Burns didn't squeeze the trigger, but his knowledge made it happen.

So... do you think I could poke a 200lb + buck in the chest with the 105vld at 500yds and not have a tracking nightmare on my hands? Anybody?

I don't want to assume the lady wasn't involved or doesn't have the skill - I wasn't there. I'm not much of a rifle shooter, but odds are John Burns or lots of guys here could set me up with a doped rifle and I could make a shot far beyond anything I could do on my own. I'd call that a stunt as well.

Different than hitting a deer with a .223 @ 200 yds how?...assuming by chest... you mean hit lungs or heart...

Shooting a rifle is one skill set.

Determining how conditions will affect the bullet flight, and correcting for those things is a lot tougher. It requires in depth knowledge of exterior ballistics of the round used, as well as a lot of experience shooting LR in various conditions.

There's a reason "trigger monkey" is a common nickname in some two-man teams.

For a shooter like John Burns, figuring out a 688 yd shot is a VERY easy day.

Friggin' WOW.

John, I'm seriously impressed. Congrats to you, and to her.

And, Shane... quit making sense.

Couldn't agree more...he had me and my gun on the money @ 600 yds 3 out of 3...then @ 700 ..then his @ 1100 ...

Doing trumps guessin every time...

+1 Million. The guy forgot more about handling a rifle then I will ever hope to know. I for one will not sell every rifle I own and run out and buy a 243 because of that video. All that video shows is equipment used properly suffices at long range. In the real world cattle are killed with a bolt gun and how does that compare with a 243 ? That was one of the more humane elk kills I have seen at least on a video. My hat is off to Mr Burns and his Daughter. The only danger I see in the video is that some halfwit will run down to his local store buy all the equipment, sight it in at the 100 yard range and then think he is set for 1k.

I would have thought that you would know about Greybull Precision since they sponsor the Custom Rifles & Wildcats Forum..
I see now that you only joined this site in May of this year (789 posts already?) so you must have missed the welcoming committee rants about his over priced rifles and stupid custom LR scopes...
I am surpised Burns doesn't give it up, as he must know by now that he is not welcome around here... [/quote]

Nrut- John is welcome here anytime! His knowledge is greatly appreciated by me and many others. If you don't like what he has to say don't read it or respond.
Calvin- The 105VLD is an amazing 6mm bullet. Why not load some up and test it for yourself. I wouldnt hesitate to use it on a deer at 500.

Congrats to the young lady on a great shot and clean ethical kill.

Who let the idiot in?

MontanaMarine:

As I noted, Nosler #4 doesn't show that speed for a 105 gr. 243 bullet (I quoted the 100 grain Partition from Nosler) ....but if Berger says it is going that fast its news to me....2140 FPS for the Berger is what a 100 gr. Partition is doing at 400 yards.

The Berger bullet is moving nearly twice as far [allegedly] i.e. to 700 compared to the Partition speed at 400 yards...hmmm interesting physics.

Has anyone shot the Berger through a chronograph at 700 yards @ 5000 feet elev.to prove that? I mean, besides John Burns' crew...

I'm not sure that you have a point. I that elk can't read and the FPE dpesn't impress them much, but a hole through their vitals does.

If you can read then ths might help you a bit

'tard...

The VLD has a BC that trumps an NP in ways your book (and not experienced) learning obviously can't fathom. That, is physics.

The JBM calcs are better than guesses, and accurate enough to run drop charts. BT/DT.

Buckeye,

I simply have to use a line I've used elsewhere on the Campfire: Apparently your experience runs all the way from A to B.

You're way over your head on this, believe me.

805,
I was being sarcastic!
jeeze!

I had to go back to my archives to find this chart on ballistics, it is indisputable and should help solve the ballistic uncertainties...

At distance I always just go for the shoulder and mid way up the body. I do seem to get lucky as a percentage with DRTs from that shot. If the shot lands at or above mid line it is usually DRT, if the shot is below mid line then they may travel a short distance.

Biggest or maybe most common mistake is hitting to high if going for a high shoulder. If the bullet hits above the spine in the dorsal ridges the animal collapse but will regain it mobility.

The �worst angle� is the grizzly bear in the Greybull video at the top of the custom forum. I hit him behind the ribs raking forward and you can see the water blow off his shoulder from the impact. I think he ran about 40yds and started to sway. The next shot was as he was facing directly away and hit him in the center of the back, DRT. That was the 180gr VLD in a 7mm Mag.

I don�t have any qualms about head on shots other than the target is quite a bit smaller. VLDs work fine for those shots.




Thanks guys for cleaning up the thread.


Pretty fair assessment.


Shane,
Thanks. I suspect he doesn�t let the facts get in the way of a good emotional response.


Dogcatcher223,

In addition to all the other good answers (Tom, Dober, JWP, teal) you have gotten I would add that I personally like a little more reach than 700yds when talking elk.


Thanks for the kind words but she is just a friend. I got to know her because we share some pasture. She has half a dozen horses and I keep my mules on the same place.

Shrapnel;

Please modify your drawing for the physics-defying, magic, trajectory-flattening, super-high rings....

That'll fix EVERYTHING.

Mule Deer:

Let's all limit our shots to 700 yards, nothing shorter, and use only the .243. Seems to be the most efficient, and ethical too. You can spot for me.

I'd take that offer and have JB spot. Or the other JB. Or MontanaMarine.

You're in so far over your head at this point you'll see daylight in China before you come back out the way you went in.

a condescending post isn't a very good way to learn about things that you are presently clueless about

805
Thanks for the congrats and the nice comments. I did get that Nrut was just poking fun.

TBaker5390:

Oh, she killed that elk, this time. You can too, and even me, sometimes....

My point is about doing it almost every time...say 9 of 10 attempts...not just hitting it 9 of 10, but killing it 9 of 10 at 700 yards.

So, you've gone from guessing incorrectly about FPE, to making wild assertions as to whether someone else could/could not make that shot to a percentage that you pulled out of the air?

Classic...

Quit while you're way, way behind.

John, how much time did the gal put in behind the rifle prior to taking her out hunting?

Nrut I apologize. I didn't detect that.

John your welcome. Again thanks for all the help on the stock. Just loaded some 105vld to test in my 243ai. What powder were you using?

Now that the uproar has died a bit.... great vid, coaching,enabling and etc John Burns most impressive.Congrats to the lady on a fine shot. What I would like to know is what magnification do you use on shots like this and your antelope etc. Thinking I would like to set up a rifle for up to 1000 and shoot some steel build some skills at extended distance for just the fun of LR shooting. Magnum Man

The optic is the 4.5-14 that Leupold builds for Greybull.


Retumbo


I think she dry fired it 3 or 4 time before we went out and another half dozen dry fires on the elk.

Get a ballistic app on your brick phone..if you can...might help you in the learnin of ballistics...just guessin

So do you go after the weekend hunter that can hit an 8" plate at 100yds everytime...maybe? Or do you only go after the guy who can hit it @ 1000 every time?

After reading all his posts, I can't help but wonder if our pal Buckeye has ever shot a rifle at anything at any range before.

He sounds an awful lot like some PA and OH shotgun hunters I have talked to who just can't fathom the ability of a skilled rifleman with good equipment.

This is amazing, and not a "good" amazing. You let a gal with absolutely no experience shooting game with a rifle and furthermore, no experience shooting at that range at anything, take her first shot at a living big game animal?

We've disagreed before on cartridge choice and that's fine. I watched the video and saw the DRT performance of the choice. It wouldn't be my choice, but that's fine too. I have friends who have used the same combo for smaller big game at those ranges and swear by them. They happen to be some of the top competitive precision shooters in the country. I'm willing to accept that perfect placement will do the job.

But it's obvious that you are trying to prove something. It's even more obvious that you feel a steel target has the same value as any big game animal.

Twisted.

You need to switch to boxers your underwear are too tight.

Haha so Buckeye do you take your calculator out into the field to quickly and quietly punch in the numbers and run it by the Taylor Knockout Factor and Optimum Game Weight?

Jumping to conclusions again I see

I wonder how many people here have actually killed an elk? Nobody is arguing it wasn't a good shot. There are those of use that have actually killed a lot of elk, and know how tough they are. Wonder how long it would take to catch up with a wounded elk, with a 700yd head start? Especially in that country...

Bump^^^^^^^^for an answer

Dober

That's just cooler'n [bleep], John. Good work!

I'm under doctors orders not to bang my head against anything so I'm just staying out of this thread- other than the congrats.

Maybe I deduced that from 17 pages of "atta-boys".

Hmm, I would of deduced from 17 pages of "atta-boys" that the gal made a good shot and that John did a good job of coaching her thru it.

Dober

Says the guy that uses a 7 "mag"...

Yeah, that comments makes sense. We're tracking with you now...

Dober

Did she have any previous experience poking way out there with rifles or was this her first time behind one?

I actually stuck up for this hunt on another forum, before reading this. I can't believe this young girl had never shot this rifle before. John you should be ashamed..

So thick skinned that a bow with 2 FPE can't take them down...right...let alone a 45-70...@ 20 yds....chit better have a howitzer @ 50 to make it sporting....laffin

do it or STFU

NN180- Im gonna try and give the benifit of the doubt here and see what John has to say. But I'm starting to lean towards your point of view here.

And lets just say the flaming I got, and gave back was pretty ugly...I may have to eat a lot of crow here.

Boy lots of tight panties in here. MM has the best response so far, the one pulling the trigger is almost always the least experienced shooter, it is the spotters job to be ranging, reading wind and making the correct calls. The physical act of shooting a moderately heavy rifle from the prone is not some super athletic skill set.

I have a friend that I consider a poor shot, does not practice, has no idea of how to obtain a solid field rest and if he hits an 8" paper plate at 200yards 50% of the time with his rifle I would be suprised. While playing on the ranch he was impressed the way I was splattering stuff with my .243 running the 115Dtac and wanted a try. He dry fired a few times and then using the called comeups and windage hold he wiped out a crow at 435 yards and a second one over 550. Two one shot hits on something smaller than the vitals of that elk.

My brother in law is in his 30s and his last shots fired were from an air rifle in boy scouts. Set him up at the range and put him on a 6" plate at 400yards, had him dry fire a few to understand the concept of a trigger press, gave him a wind read and he pops the plate 2 for 2. He looked at me and said "so what is so hard about that", he switched to the 600yard plate I told him to guess on external ballistics and I let him chase his tail in a switching cross wind for a half dozen rounds before he looked over and said "I get it now". He quickly understood that the knowledge was far more important than the physical skill. I have coached a lot of new shooters over the years and if they willing to listen they can have fabulous results. When I got that particular .243 up and running I put it on paper at 100 with 3-4 rounds then jumped right to 1000yards on a plate. The next three rounds were under 8"and a little bit high because of a software problem, I did not compensate for the uphill shot and the 1000yard plate should have only needed data for about 970. Went back to 200yards and followed my JBM results and built a data table to 1200yards. I was blessed to have a very light 6 o'clock wind and from 200 yards out to about 1050 I would not have had a single round off of a 10" target.

For me ethics is a sum of whole. If the hunter had no experience behind this rifle, no knowledge of proper comeups and holds then slinging lead from any caliber at any distance is unethical. As it was shown here the physical component was solid as well as the information required to make the shot. Never met JB in my life but I think if he was looking at a shooter that could not get comfortable, was not sure of themselves or had a good dose of buck (bull?) fever he would have waved off the shot and looked for a fourth setup.

I think I already explained I feel pretty proud of how that all worked out.

It is possible that me calling her a �girl� in the title of the thread is somewhat misleading but it made me smile.

While this might have been her first big game animal she owns her own bird dogs and hunts upland game most every weekend.

The elk was hauled out of the hills in the back of her 1 ton dually truck. She owns a string of horses (including one of the better mannered stud horse I have ever been around) and tack (including pack saddles) and regularly rides alone in the exact area in which she killed the elk. She was ready to saddle up and pack that elk out of any hole it could find.

She owns her own .300 WSM.

She works 12 hr shifts in the QC dept of a company that makes cancer medicines and only has the weekends to hunt.

I did not �let� her shoot that elk. I simply told her what the gun would do and she made the decision understanding exactly what could go wrong.

What really makes me smile is how she performed so well in a situation that has a few, just a few, of you guys stumped.

An impartial observer might draw the conclusion her stellar performance has damaged a few fragile egos. I mean if a �girl� can do it ???

JB,
Im will probably burn out this barrel running the Dtacs, do you have any experience with them on game? I have to run lead free for all of my big game but when I head out of state I not be saddled with that restriction.

Any significant reason for using the 105 vs 115 in the Berger line? Im running the 115 at about 2950fps, the 105 is generally not an option due to a 3000fps limit at the range to save the steel but its easy enough to run another load for game.

Thanks John for telling the whole story. This has helped clear up quite a bit of mis-information. (information you intentionally left out to spark up controversy?) After all, it's not an Internet thread without misinformation.

Just seems to me I'd have liked her to shoot the gun a bit first, but that's just me and my opinion, not you and yours.

Thanks

Sir, I was going to say the same thing. How do any of you know she did not grow up with a rifle in her hands?

John said she has a 300 WSM, maybe she shoots it at 700 yards every other day.

You never know about the other aspects.

This was why I wanted to get a better picture of what was going on. Course all John said was "she hunts birds" and "owns a 300wsm", didn't say if she shoots the hell outta it, but he prolly thinks I'm trolling so he's laying out some bait

This is a good post by someone who clearly shoots a lot and knows it is no trick to hit from prone with a bipod,even to long distances;and calling conditions is most important of all.

I shot with John one afternoon in Wyoming, he making the "calls" for wind,comeups, etc,and he had three of us on rocks the size of elk vitals to 1200 yards(which to me looked like the next time zone).I was completely incredulous, never having shot so far at anything......When we switched to 800 yards it seemed somehow "easy"...so I know this gal was well coached.

John does not "guess" about this stuff.

What many can't get their head around is that little slip of a bullet killing that elk so quickly.I might feel the same if I had not dug so many 100 gr bullets from elk carcasses years back,killed with a 250 Savage by a pal in Wyoming.A 243 would not be my choice either, but I am not shocked the animals died quickly....


Sure, elk are tough(hit poorly with anything),but it only takes a few inches of penetration over the ribs to reach the lungs,and that 6mm bullet through lungs is a destructive force in soft tissue.No North American ungulate will survive it if placed close enough to where he "lives",ie heart/lungs destroyed.

as the blood flows freely from the gored ox..



perfect..

Well, I liked the title of your other thread about the antelope, it was much more fitting......

Call me nuts, but i would rather have a calm inexperienced shooter than someone that thinks they know what they are doing. Reason is simple if they dont think they know what they are doing, they let you tell them what to do and how.
I had my old 7 mag out busting rocks at 650. My neighbor thought it was cool and wanted to try. He had never shot beyond 100 yards. He listened well, let me talk him into the shot and listened. He hit the rocks and we went all the way to 750. It was fun and an education. Same gun but different shooter. Had my best friend out and i was busting rocks at 400 yards. He wanted to shoot my rifle so i let him. I told him what to set the scope on and how to hold. He kept missing. I grabbed the rifle and hit the rocks. Finally asked him what the deal was, he told me he was aiming a lil hi and adjusting for wind. I told him he didnt need to with the scope set. After finally listening he busted some rocks. He has hunted as long as me and has more experience than my neighbor.
So in a sense sometimes its better for someone willing to learn and listen to take long shots than someone who thinks they know it all and wont listen. Just my take on it.
I also have a new 7 mag, i wont shoot it beyond 550 yards because i dont have the confindence in myself yet with that rifle set up. I do have the yards set to 800 but doubt i will ever use em because i havent been confident in that rifle at those ranges yet. My old 7RM no issue because i new the gun. This new one will take time.
JB seems to know his guns and what they do. I like the confidence. Great kill!

JB,

Good on ya and tell the girl congrats. This place didn't used to be like this.

There must be more "girls" than we imagined masquerading here as guys. Listen to them crying and whining.

I think you do a fine job John.

I wonder how many fathers here put their daughter behind a rfile for the first time when they shot their first deer and patted them on the back in elation?

Wow - that is something Mr. Burns. Congrats to the lady and congrats to you for coaching her on this impressive shot.

An arrow is not a bullet...Don't be dumb.

azz kissing knows no bounds......if this was joe blow poster they would be blasted ! but a advertiser and ho-raaa ! never will agree with that type of shooting on video because it breeds copy-cat shooting with people who have no buisness doing it.

p.s. any body can squeeze a trigger.......

Not that [bleep] again, better stop showing MMA, boxing, PBR, NHRA and many others before some idiot goes out and tries it.

People do need protection from Pabst Blue Ribbon.

Ok, got me there. (grin)

I have to agree here, ever since I watched Bugs Bunny blow up the Tazmanian Devil with a turkey made of Dyanmite, I have been doing the same...

From now on anybody posting any thing regarding shooting or killing is mandated to include a seventeen page biography of said subject.

Sad, how accustomed our culture has become to having a babysitter.

I wonder what they did with their time before they had the internet to bitch about what others were doing.

Here's my thoughts on this whole fiasco, I still haven't got an answer wether she shot her 300 much, but still, he it goes.

I think Barns is a hell of a shooter and has done a lot for LRH, but after finding out you didn't even put her on gongs for a few hours with the gun is kinda foolish. You put her behind the gun for one reason, to prove to the masses that a GB precision rig can kill stuff in the hands of a rookie. I know, I know, it's not the shooter its the spotter that does the work, but holy [bleep] shes human. You know it and I know it, this was a stunt, a stunt on a living, breathing animal.


I'm not here to slam JB and Grey Bull, but thats my opinion. And if you think I'm just a mouth breather who hates GB Precision you can go over to Canadian Gun Nuts and look at the 19 [bleep] pages of flack I took for defending you, because I was absolutely positive a guy with your experience (John) would have atleast put her behind the gun for a decent amount of time before you coached her to killing her first elk.


Congrats to her, not so much to you (John).

I still consider a 243 a "stunt" for elk for the most part. I would use one with the right bullet, and at reduced ranges, but it wouldn't be my first choice. And I am a big fan of the 243.

Pretty obvious from the video that a real hunter could have closed the gap...But what do I know? Last elk I killed was at 20yds.

Not my idea of an elk cartridge but I agree. Job well done

Fodder for it's own thread. What is a "real hunter"?

Did you miss this part?: "These elk have been hunted all fall and are pretty wary. This was the third time we setup on the herd and the first chance she had for a shot."

Any elk not in a hayfield is "weary." That is foreign to some people. That is what makes hunting them so hard.

Don't you dummies know a 243 can't kill an elk..oooh I forgot it was a female shooting. a real man needs a bigger gun.

If you can make the shot you shouldn't have to track him right? Me personally, I wouldn't take the shot because I don't practice out to those type ranges, I would try to get closer. I would not want to have to track a wounded critter in that rain soaked jungle where you live.

The Dwarf from the North will (shortly) come forth. Trust me.
pun intended

Hope she does..
Love seeing her having her lips ripped..



Makes for great entertainment and I think she kinda likes it to boot..

Great video JB, thanks for posting.

Pretty sure the dwarf got the axe......again!

One can only hope....

Further evidence that DRT trumps shooting for blood trail.

I shot mine at 15 yards this year. I was standing on a trail in timber and it walked right by me. Last year's bull was at 30 yards, walked right in on him. Year before, 60 yards, walked right in on her.

I suppose that means I'm a much better hunter than John Burns. At least to some people.

I also suppose it gives me that "right" to scoff at others who don't get as close as I do, question whether they're really hunters and such. Because in my book, getting within 50-60 yards is a whole different ballgame than say, 250 yards. Getting within 250 is child's play. But you never hear people question a 250 yard shot, because most can pull it off.

And so on and so forth.

Why didn't you just lob some lead at them from 700yds instead?

That would be too bad, he certainly is entertaining.

Everyone hates 'Stick because he actually speaks from experience, and drew his own conclusions.

It could be more than a little because he's loud and relentless in proclaiming the "dumbfuckitude" of anyone who reaches a different conclusion.

Here is how I see it.

Burns knows his rifles and system inside and out. What he can do with a rifle at distance versus someone like myself is night and day.

The fact that he can coach someone into that shot and make it work is one heck of an accomplishment.

However, you take away John Burns giving you elevation and a wind call and see how most of us would do on that shot, regardless of caliber.

John's expertise allows him to take shots and use head stamps on game across state lines that many of us have no business attempting.

With the exception of Scenar, Dober and maybe a few others, JB is in a league of his own. One you don't play in unless you have years of that sort of shooting experience.

JM

blah blah blah. I know my rifles inside and out too, and still don't consider my 243 an ethical 700yd elk gun.

+1

688 yards is a stunt- not hunting. Has anyone ever hit a deer or elk that showed no sign of being hit? Would he hike near a half mile to check. ever try to hit an animal after it begins running 'raggedly' with a busted leg? What if you break the jaw and it starves to death?
IMO that shot is irrsponsible. Game animals are to valued and not 'sniped' to prove you can.

Not that my opinion counts for anything here, but I am not a fan of the newest trend in buying a shooting "system" of rifle, scope, loads, etc. Not that I don't think they are fantastic tools, I just feel they inspire a level of confidence that someone with little to no trigger time behind said rifle should have. I know a few people who can afford these "systems" and have purchased them, checked zero at 100 yds and proceeded to look for an animal to shoot at 500+ yds having never shot at a live animal past 125 yds previously. I feel that the shot in this video is absolutely ethical even if the energy of 243 is questionable at that range. It is ethical because the shot was coached by someone with vast knowledge of the equipment and conditions, who has years of experience making those kinds of shots. There is absolutely no equipment on earth that can make up for a lack of trigger time.

To clarify, I primarily bowhunt and it requires careful attention to scent control, sound, wind, etc. Most of my archery kills happen inside 25 yds. I have passed on animals that I could have easily taken with a rifle at 200 yds. That's just part of the game. That being said, I have no problem with someone who takes the time to learn his equipment and the capabilities of his cartridge of choice taking game at 500+, but ONLY if he has put in the trigger time needed to cleanly take game at those yardages. You cannot buy equipment that by itself will make you capable of this. I hunt over some fields where 600-700 yard shots are possible. My personal limit with my equipment is 300-400 at this time and I hope to extend those ranges this offseason.

Bingo - We have a winner!

It's one thing to take the guys out for the first time and show them how to hit rocks at long range. Too bad John didn't do that first with the young lady. Methinks he jumped the gun for the sake of self-promotion.

This place is kinda like a couch for some of ya, isn't it?..




seriously..

Some just hate the fact they can't do what others can and must bitch and whine like infants.

Just another day at the fire.

Why the hell they think they can make the rules on what others with skill choose to hunt with is beyond me?

A little libtardism seeping out again...

"I know what is best for you.."




JM

I don't either, in just anyone's hands. You know your limits.

Congratulations.

JM

I would not use your .243 Win either. I guess we agree on that point.



What is actually the funniest is the thought that I made the decision to shoot or not shoot.

Of the three of us on the hill I can promise you I was the most hesitant about the shot. She was absolutely sure she could make the shot if the wind hold was right and the elevation worked as she had been told.

The one thing I was absolutely sure of was the gun would hit under the crosshair and the .243 Win/105 VLD would cleanly kill that elk if the bullet landed in the vital zone.

Who am I to tell a grown up to shoot or not shoot at her first elk. She understood the consequences of a bad shot and was way more prepared to deal with a problem than most of the other hunters I have seen shoot their first elk.

I think we keep getting back to fragile egos and �Girls� should not shoot elk.

Can't blame you, it didn't cost $6000 and yet it shoots like this...105 Scenars. Your guns are just like soccer moms buying Jeep Rubicons. Little do they know you couldn't actually take it to the Rubicon trail, but they look good parked at the mall.

Want to sell it?

All were killed in September, when centerfire rifles aren't legal.

If I'd been hunting in a rifle season, with a valid tag, and saw 'em at 700, I would not have taken the shot. But only because I'm not confident I could make a 700-yard shot in the field, yet. If/when I get to the point that I'm confident, I wouldn't hesitate.

Dogcatcher- Thats a great 100 yard group. How well does it shoot at 500?

I know I had a 400yd target at home. See if I can find it. Unfortunately, I do not believe a 243 is a 500yd elk gun, let alone a 700yd elk gun. But what do I know, unlike most that have posted on this topic, I have killed elk.

It already has a $600 scope on it, but still wears a factory stock. I will install a $200 B&C stock on it, if you are willing to pay me $6000 for it.

PS, it does have a Timney trigger.

So I post a video of a 688yd DRT and you post a picture of a 100yd group and want to use a soccer mom/ Jeep Rubicon analogy?? You do realize which side of that you and your 100yd group are on?

Seriously??

You missed the dot 3 times, but I suppose the fact that you missed it in the same place makes you happy.

You use of �soccer mom� as a derogatory also proves my �Fragile Ego� and �Girls can�t shoot elk� theory.

Beautiful shot. Everyone should know their own limitations.

Some here would prefer that Clint Eastwood have said "everyone should know my limitations and I would not have been able to do that so I don't think you should have done it either."


Question is- during the stalk was the rifle chamber hot or cold?

They said they had 2 AD's during the stalk., so I will assume they were hot.

The 2nd killed the elk.

Maybe you can come up with rule book on max distance for a given caliber someone should be allowed to shoot an Elk. Could be handy for discussions such as these.

How many elk have you killed?

That is called load development, hitting the dot is not priority, testing for group size, speed and pressure are what matters. I had to do it myself, my gun wasn't $6000 so it didn't come with load data! bwahahahahahaaa

that is why I am asking you.

John I hope you don't think I'm trolling or anything here. I could care less if she was a 20 year old girl or a 70 year old man, it was a hell of a shot. I've been defending you over at CGN for 20+ pages of flack from others. I know you know your [bleep] more than anyone around here, myself included.

It just kinda disturbed me to think you didnt have her bust rocks with the gun first. And if you think I missed the advertisement oppurtunities that this video puts forth you're mistaken.

But seriously, thanks for answering the questions I've asked John. Keep doing what you're doing, SOB its working well.

Ok, who is CGN.

Canadian Gun Nuts

DC you really don't have a clue do ya?

I always say- better to be lucky than good. By the way JM- what is the retained energy of a .243 slug at 700 yards? Is that VLD an actual hunting type bullet? Just becasue you can does not mena you should. You can kill an elk with a .22LR- does not mean you should. LRH should read LRS- Long Range Shooting. It aint hunting, and I maintain it is irresponsible. I get kind of tired of people reading the ammunition box and figuring that is the velocity/drop they are going to actually see. I also get kind of tired of hunters claiming their 12+ pound rifle is a 'hunting' rifle. Of course if your ATV or pick up or a gunbearer carries it what matter.

11posts? Do you have rule book published to tell me how to hunt?

Super shooting...I just hate the thought of wounding something as fantastic as an elk, to show off your shooting skills, or more accurately your coaching skills.

Brag all day about hitting a postage stamp in a 40 mile an hour crosswind, with gusts to 80mph, at 1000 yards, with a .221 Fireball and I will be the first to cheer. If you miss the stamp, no big deal.

Crap can happen at any distance of course, and maybe this gal and her coach can make this shot 100 times out of 100, which at the much closer distances I shoot I fully expect to do.

Anyway, once again, super shooting!

Why even bring up the "energy" bull [bleep]


inelastic collision
n.
A collision between two particles in which part of their kinetic energy is transformed to another form of energy. The total amount of energy remains the same.


inelastic collision (n-lstk)
Physics
A collision between bodies in which the total kinetic energy of the bodies is not conserved. In an inelastic collision, the total momentum of the two bodies remains the same, but some of the initial kinetic energy is transformed into heat energy internal to the bodies, used up in deforming the bodies, or radiated away in some other fashion. Inelastic collisions, such as the collision of two balls of clay, tend to result in the slowing and sometimes the joining together of the colliding bodies. Comapre elastic collision.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inelastic+collision





elastic collision
n. Physics
A collision of particles in which the total kinetic energy of the particles is conserved

stic collision (-lstk)
Physics
A collision between bodies in which the total kinetic energy of the bodies is conserved. In a perfectly elastic collision, no energy is dissipated as heat energy internal to the bodies, and none is spent on permanently deforming the bodies or radiated away in some other fashion. Elastic collisions, such as the collision of a rubber ball on a hard surface, result in the reflection or "bouncing" of bodies away from each other. Comapre inelastic collision.



http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elastic+collision

Impressive to see a big animal like that fold to a 243 at that range.

And just to clarify and keep things in perspective, the consequence of a bad shot is more of a problem for the elk, it's not nearly as painful for her.

Obviously you are skilled at getting right to the crux of a situation. Congratulations on your insightful evaluation.

I was actually there and missed the problem concerning the bad drop data on the ammo box, much less when the hunters were claiming their 12+ rifle was a �hunting� rifle.

If you had not pointed those issues out I would still be clueless and you are to be admired for your powers of observation.

It is if you hit them in the goggler.



What a tool.

Great shooting and video!

Enough obviously. Do you know what it is?

In this case...yup.



No that'd be [bleep] stupid. Killin an elk with a capable round like a .243 on the other isnt ([bleep] stupid).



Look up the definition of hunting. Everything in that video was hunting. Just because it's not YOUR idea of hunting dont make it wrong.



Not even gonna comment on how dumb the rest of this is.

What is starting to bother me about the campfire is all the negativity. Instead of being happy for a person taking her first elk, making a clean shot, and making a great shots, people have to ruin it by being negative. Nobody is perfect and as much as they think they are God's gift to hunting, I am sure everyone has made a poor decision, made a poor shot or taken a shot they shouldn't have. Regardless if it was a bird, a chuck, a deer, an elk. They are all animals, all have lives, all suffer if wounded. you can't say one life is worth more than another and be ethical. If you wanna talk ethics, all animals should be treated with respect. However I am sure many bashing this elk shot go out and try to prove how great they are shooting dogs, chucks, and the likes at hundreds of yards and don't worry about if they wound the animal or not. Then they come home get on here and bash someone for doing the same shooting but at a bigger target. both targets are animals and both should be respected, apparently they are treated differently. Guess ethics go out the window there.

If I had the money, I wouldn't pay for JB's rifles, because I can set one up similar for less. However if I did, it would be out of convenience. His systems seem to be awesome and accurate. Good for him, the vid shows what can be done with a capable shooter who is confident that has a rifle that is set up properly. To him I say a job well done for a wonderful rifle build. To the gal I say great shot. Not one I would have wanted to take, but glad it worked out well and for having confidence in the tool you were using. I am not going to bash him or her, no need to. But I will congratulate them on a successful hunt.

Too much hating going on around here. What ever happened to disagreeing but still being happy for someone? So much hatred around here that I am starting to believe people are getting mad that they are proved wrong that a 243 can kill an elk and that a girl can shoot better than them. Again a shot I wouldn't have taken with a 243, but more power to her if she felt she could and if she felt the round had enough to cleanly kill the elk.
People also get into precision. I bet most hunters can shoot a 243 better than a 300 win mag or a 30-06. Less recoil, less flinch, less fear. They don't worry about the kick, only making the shot. With a 243 one can make a better shot because of it. I would bet that more people would be more accurate with that 243 than a 7RM, 300WM, 30-06, even 270. Being sure the shot is perfect makes the shot better aswell. I bet most people think to themselves "I have a big round, so if I make a less than perfect shot that is ok because I have the extra power" With a smaller round you can't say that and have to think a perfect shot every time which is what people should say with their manly monster guns too.

I don't have a dog in this, I just get bothered by people who think they are perfect and can't just be happy for a person having success.

Kique

Well said.

+1 ....love the goggler line too...gotta remember that one.

Laffin, JB and JM came up with that.

Very nice...you would have thought it was a magnum...good for her and great shot!

You think that's bad, most times I get my ammo out of a Ziploc baggie!!! I'm REALLY at a disadvantage.

I have a sneaking suspicion the ammo you get out of your Ziploc bag ain�t much of a disadvantage and the last time you looked at the drop data on a box of ammo it was simply for the entertainment value.


JM is going to be mad that the Wyoming spelling is taking over.

I couldn't help it...lol

I haven't bought ammo in decades, other than 22 rimfire.

I didn't even know they put drop data on the boxes nowadays.

Been out having a beer with some hunting buddies.

I'm really sorry I missed Berettadad make a fool of himself with that post.

Can only hope he has more nuggets of wisdom to share.

Enrique:

Well said, I am glad she killed her first elk, too. And I am glad she is happy about that elk. I want her to kill the next one she shoots at, and the one after that. And finds them, and eats them.

Couldn't resist another "cheap shot BS post could you

The dumbfucktitude is astounding to say the very least

Congrats on the elk, loved the vid too..Its a great feeling when they fold up like that.

In other words:

"I'm too damn lazy, lack the means/faculties to connect the dots of this LR shooting stuff..Therefore no one has any business doing it"

And everyone knows that booger bullets have "hunting" written on them orange boxes :-)

How freaking cold was it? Looked freezing!

That was an awesome shot. Congrats to the beautiful girl. I'm sure she will enjoy eating that one, it looked like the tastiest one in the herd.

A fundamental human failing,is the inability of (some folks) to recognize what is staring them squarely in the face (Reality),if it runs counter to what they have experienced or know....the Flat Earth or Luddite mentality comes to mind....

You sure are wordy Bob

Was this hunt in 100 John? I know it could be any number of places in WY, just curious.

Rosco....that any better?

This is precisely why I consider myself a "Neo-Luddite".

I shot several deer at under 100 yds with a 30-06. some ran 50 or so yards with their heart/lungs blown to jello. It is all in the situation. the young lady did an excellant job the position of the animal has a lot to do with the end result. the Elk had been hunted hard so that was probably the first chanch for a shot with the animal in a good position. had she tried to get closer tha angle of the shot would of been possobly differant causing a wound instead of a clean kill. she did great and deserves credit.. all the nasayers go practice until you are as good as her.

Well, again, congratulations to the "girl" and to you JB for getting her on her first elk.

But I've gotta say, if it was me there shooting your rifle, with you calling the wind & elevation and you told me you thought the shot was questionable, I would have to trust your judgment and I wouldn't take the shot.

Being prepared to deal with the consequences of a bad shot is a good thing, but would not excuse me from taking a questionable shot.

And that's just one man's opinion, I understand.

Absolutely Spot On.

Well it did happen in Wyoming. Dam women, I have never killed anything close to that far and she got a googler/goggler shot before me.

still more azz kissing. anyone else pulled this stunt they would be bludgened to death with electronic hate for 60-70 pages.... the op is obviously a pompous azz after reading his replies. another person who thinks they only have the skill, money to pull this off................not

to the girl congrats you got lucky this time, squeezing the trigger after the scope was dialed in for you and after two failed " set-ups" to which you may have missed or wounded elk........we will never know. really makes you the elk guru, perhaps you can start your own t.v. show.

this was a stunt pure and simple and a very risky one. you will never find a piece of literature anywhere that promotes a .243 as a 700 yard elk cartridge. this elk was either brained or spined. ala luck shot. i have lots of elk under my belt and have been on many kills. and BFD about the vld slug. people talk like it is something it is not. it is copper and lead just as a speer spitzer, it has no detonating quality, carries no poison ect. has a high bc. thats it.....

our big game herds deserve better than being used for target practice, and to prove an egotistical point. end of story.

i am not saying no one should do it, many guys are superb long range shots. if people feel impowered for it cool. but when you brag, and try and glorify it don't be surprised when some people don't jump out of their chairs and clap their hands and holler for you and want you to sign there rifles.some enjoy hunting

a redneck who was swilling keystone light all day in a bed of truck and spotted the elk at the same distance and held out his trusty .30-.30 and aimed 10 elk high and shot could have done the same thing. as i said before anyone can squeeze a trigger.and anyone can get lucky. don't think you are carlos hathcock of the hunting world.

congrats to the girl for shooting her first elk. maybe she will get to hunt someday.

want some cheese?

One of you guys that knows everything�

How many big game animals are wounded/lost inside 50 yards by bows each year?

Now how many are wounded/lost by rifles over 600 yards each year?

My guess is if you really want to "help" big game, turn your efforts to stop bow hunting.

Obviously.



Nice of you to say.

Amen to that. Thanks for your excellent response.

I was curious as to why the length of this post. Ok,,,, got it.

Yes, we will know, by reading the post where it says this was the first chance for a shot.....

"Pompous-ness" mut be contagious. Or would that be more like "arrogance-ness?" That is, to bust somebone's chops for maybe wounding an elk or missing a shot when you don't even take the time to read what the man wrote?

Please post up a pic of any elk you have killed.



Funny, in reading Enrique's thread, almost everyone agreed the 243 was marginal for elk, but ok if kept within 300yds or so.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5103600/1

And then you read this thread and everyone is offering Burns a backrub, and discounting those of us with actual elk hunting experience.

want some cheese?

No one is discounting anyone's experience.

Just discounting the manure that some insist on spewing regarding what others can and cannot hunt with.

If a man is skilled enough to kill elk at 600 yds with a .243, more power to him.

Why does this bother you so much?

My only problem with those whining about this is their belief that they have a divine right to determine what others use to hunt game with.

hahahaa, have you ever killed anything at all? Please continue to cite examples of your vast experience.

I will freely admit to being a noob at elk. I have killed quite a few critters though just this year I took a
Buck Antelope @ 361yds
Doe Whitetail @ 412yds
Buck Whitetail @ 214yds (wanted to get him @ 440yds but didn't have a shot I felt comfortable with, so had to get closer, then he decided to get closer.)

I am sure you you are more experienced than me.

That is why I asked you to write a rule book on what others can and cannot do, because I used to would never shoot a deer over 250ish cause someone told me that was the limit. Turns out they were wrong...but I am sure you will be right on what is the limit according to you.

Dog,you voiced your opinion on this matter repeatedly,

You do come across as being the omnipotent one.

Take a break,Go for a walk or something........

Maybe the Campfire should set up a committee (self appointed of course) that could rule on whether a elk should be shot at a specific range. Or better yet a hotline that a person in the field could call and get a ruling.

So when I shot an antelope at 620 with a BMG does that count as hunting? Can I get a ruling judges?

I don't think I would question any of the guys on here who's abilities are a known value. I would only question a shot like this if it was made by somebody who may or may not have the appropriate confidence and ability to make the shot successfully with a reasonable degree of consistency. JB has proven his shooting abilities to be more than adequate for a shot like this. Any he was the one who made it happen. The girl made a nice shot, but she was simply the trigger squeezer. As long as she can hold the rifle steady enough and squeeze the trigger properly, her abilities are sufficient. It was JB that had to figure distance, drop, windage, etc, which we all know that he can do as well as the best of them. Having said that, sometimes crap happens, whether long range, or close. If a hunter has never wounded an animal, then he hasn't shot too many animals. It's a risk we take as soon as we decide to fire a bullet at a distant animal, and the risk varies with our shooting experience and confidence, regardless of distance.

As long as a bullet has enough velocity to expand, and enough momentum to reach the vitals, I'm happy. This applies to all my game shooting, regardless of species. Apparently the .243 with 105gr VLD met both of these criteria in this case, even though it was beyond the 300-yard, prescribed limitation that lots of guys put on the .243. Works for me.

and get some cheese while yer out.......

Wow, what an unbelievable thread that started with a hunting video.
It appears that many members here are extremely ethical, they must never drive over the speed limit either.
It amazes me every day how people have business to other's business, but hate it when their own business is interfered with. John, guide another person please to get them hooked up on hunting.

I've read this thread, and I usually stay out of pizzin' matches. I can't help myself on this one.

I can't believe anyone would have anything negative to say. The girl made a very quick clean kill on a big game animal. Can't show much more respect than that. John did a great job gettin' it to happen.

I know success is often the fertilizer that grows passion. The girl may end up being an avid huter, getting many more young people into the sport. Maybe a long range competition champion. All because of this positive experience. As a father of three I can appreciate what just happened.

I don't begrudge anyone their own opinions, some things are black and white. This may be one to you, not me.

At the end of the day - I know I have been wrong enough times to know I am not always right! So I try to look at all sides as objectively as I can.

SC

I believe far more "hunters" butcher short shots than long shots. How many long range shooters have you ever seen shoot another hunter?

The fact is that the shot WAS made by someone with UNKNOWN abilities and UNKNOWN consistency, so start questioning!

Have you not been following this thread? jb did no other work with her than to have her dry fire the rifle. No shooting even at 100 yards on paper to see what her ability may be as compared to what he could do with his rifle. He had no idea if she could even hold the rifle steady which could be seen by shooting a simple group on a piece of paper at 100 yards.

Her ability was unknown to everyone in that video including the camera man, jb and the girl!

What I'd like to know is how many here would put their "friend" in the same situation that jb did here?

I have a lot of friends who have similar experience in the field and in life as this girl. No way would I ever put them, me, and a big game animal in this situation with their total inexperience with long range shooting.

I think it's quite a risk, but if you don't give a [bleep] about your friend or the animal, have at it I guess!

What I'd like to know is how many here would put their "friend" in the same situation that jb did here?

I would not hesitate to. Hell John I'll volunteer to be the next" Friend" behind the rifle. Maybe only at 687 though!

Let me repeat the rest of my post for you, since you apparently stopped reading.

"JB has proven his shooting abilities to be more than adequate for a shot like this. Any he was the one who made it happen. The girl made a nice shot, but she was simply the trigger squeezer. As long as she can hold the rifle steady enough and squeeze the trigger properly, her abilities are sufficient. It was JB that had to figure distance, drop, windage, etc, which we all know that he can do as well as the best of them."

Each individual shooter knows when they look at the animal through the scope whether they are able to hold the rifle steady enough to hit vitals, or not. The girl chose to shoot because she must have felt that the crosshairs were hovering over the vitals, rather than waving all over the place. She knew that she was holding steady enough. The rest of the factors involved in the shot were taken care of by John.

Some people really need to get laid.

Most of them would have to get real close...they don't have the equipment to poke her from a ways back.

I'm not interested in sharing my opinion on this...the animal died instantly and that is good by me...but people shouldn't get upset about all the negative comments. I can't imagine the OP didn't know he would be pouring gas on the fire by posting this.

Some of the argument in this thread is created through misunderstanding, because people don't seem to read carefully enough.

Let me try to be perfectly clear:
� I have no qualms whatsoever about JB's skills or about the capability of his rifles - or the .243, for that matter.
� I've read many of John's posts - to me he sounds like a good guy, someone I'd hang around with.
� I'm not suffering from a case of sour grapes or jealousy.
� I congratulate the lady for her accomplishment and John for his products and expertise. Hell, I'd love it if I had the opportunity to be mentored by JB.
� My concern is over JB's slip in judgement in having the lady shoot at a live animal w/o first giving her any long range practice at inanimate targets. Even though I have shot and hunted for 45 years, I have never shot an animal past 300 yards, and If JB were coaching me, I would certainly want to practice first on targets at long range before tackling an elk. Also, I've taken a few newbies hunting with me over the years, but I have never done so without first taking them to the range to give them some practice and guidance. To me, this is just common sense, and I'll bet that JB usually follows that progression.
� I suspect that John's motivation in having the lady do this and subsequently posting it on the Campfire was governed more by a desire for self-promotion rather than sharing his pride in his neighbor's accomplishment ... but only JB would be able to know that with certainty.

Gosh, I am afraid that the girl may be scarred for life by the responsibility that was carelessly thrown at her, but to make sure and report more than just a speculation, I am also willing to subject myself to the same kind of trauma if John needs another test subject. I, too, have no proven record of shooting that far.

But neither does buckeyespecial. That don't mean JB would allow HIM the chance.....

Given the fact you are in idiot and someone with NO friends, none of that would apply to you.

John already stated he knew the girl and her abilities as a shooter and hunter.

Only a no talent puzzy like you would be "afraid" to take the shot in that exact situation.

You are just jealous because you've never made a game shot that long in your pathetic little life. Let alone record it on video.

Loser.

Jeez Bob, I didnt say it wasnt a good post!

Thanks jim62! Pleased to meet you too!

BTW, you're first guy I've seen who's so proud of his IQ that he uses it as part of his handle!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

The know it all and self appointed moral conscious of the world has spoken

I think maybe he's like some "whine" to go with the cheese

After watching the video and meandering through the entire thread, I guess my only comment favors the guide: I would have taken her hunting too. dvnv

Yes Archie and JM Bwana- MY refernce shows the .243 slug with .53 BC (Berger VLD) started at 3000 fps, having a retained velocity of about 1860, energy a little over 800 ft. lbs. Time of flight near 0.90 second. 82 inches more drop than a 300 yard zero. 35" drift in 10 mph full value cross wind. An animal walking 4 mph would move about 65" in that time. (Reference manual by Phillip Mannes. I didn't memorize it because I don't shoot at game that far and don't own a .243 Win.)
I have had occasion to chrono factory ammunition and reloads. Actual velocities did not match published nor predicted. BC's tend to cary with conditions and other factors. But then you are so very informed and wise that you know all that. It appears you would suggest that any novice reading the posts could do it with good equipment, and not actually shooting (a lot?) at the extended ranges you espouse as suitable?
Good to know to that only opinions of the folks that agree with you count and are not 'foolish'. My 'opinion' v. yours should be equally valid. But then again...

More drivel from the dumphuck of the year.

'62 was the year I was born, which means I am old enough to have a low tolerance for small minded little cretins like yourself.

Slither back over to accuratereloading.com and start more arguments about using 22 centerfires for deer.

They tolerate your "special" brand of retardation over there.

No they don't he has managed to get the boot on AR not once but twice.

It figures.

He's an idiot.

I may have looked at this sort of thread a little differently a year or two ago, then I actually shot this rifle with the Campfire group last year.
This system works. Seeing isn't enough for some but shooting one of these rifles really let me know what can be done.

John, I thought we used up all the Magic in that rifle, guess it still shoots well enough!
TBaker How's life in the hills this year?

I suppose the next step in ethical long range hunting is to see the animal at a couple of thousand yards and then walk away for a couple of miles to make sure they are in range.

Quite a leap of "logic" there..

And, pretty much total bullschit like all the rest of your posts on this thread..

It must really piss you off that Burns provided video PROOF of a young being able to do something you'll never have the knowledge ,talent or equipment to pull off.

You are a said little puke..

Pricks and dumb ass are never in short supply

I think it is pretty evident that the vast majority of posters in the thread have been basically positive in seeing someone cleanly kill their first big game animal.

I also concede that the circumstances were different than many hunters are used to and that has caused a few posters to question the situation. We all have our opinions and the reason why the 24hr Campfire is popular is the chance to share opinion and discuss hunting.

I am also sure that a few here have had their egos crunched from watching a �girl� handle a tough situation so well, better than they feel they would be able to perform in a similar situation.

To those sour pusses I have will just say too bad kids, she knocked that elks nose in the dirt at 688yds and I am proud to have been there and seen it.

Just one more time

For those who say "Maybe she can try hunting next time"

What is your definition of hunting?

When you hear 'bout "hunting" accidents it is someone who fired into a moving brush from close up. I have yet to hear of a accidental shooting from over 250 yards away. LRH's study animals and know when to take the perfect shot.

Any idiot can shoot a deer from under 150 yards with a few rounds, but it takes skill (shooter or spotter) to take a clean kill from afar.

Ps I am not bad mouthing people who shoot close, just the people who run and gun

Good job John.

"Born"? From your input here, I think "hatched" is more like it.



Yep. It's true. My posting privileges were suspended and I'm so hurt. Fortunately I will never attain the level of infamy of some here.

Hey, I think someone else's privileges who posts here were also suspended!

jwp,
Something in Alaska when you lived there? Hunting privileges I think? I think it said "Illegal Taking of Game" (poaching) and "Wanton Waste".

John Parker, right?

A moose, eh?

No name calling, it is Christmas time for peace, love and hope. You need to get a grip.

Come on now, your just jealous. Merry Christmas, no name callin.

More "rules" from the village idiot.

Take your dictatorial BS and shove it up your Dixie azz..

Happy Hollidays!!!

Thanks for the wishes, likewise to you and yours.

Hey, now that she's made the shot, let's let her hotwire a transformer from an ungrounded rig.

Course, we'll have an electrician standing by (from a safe distance), to set the deal up for her.

All she's gotta do is turn a couple screws, right?

Then, we'll have her (or what's left of her) free climb the half dome. Naturally, with an expert climber nearby (but not underneath) to offer expert advice.

There's those that consider consequences, and those that don't.

Great shot and coaching John, congrats to her..

It astounds me you are so obtuse and intellectually bankrupt that you would go from something as simple as pulling to the trigger on a rifle to rewiring transformers, etc etc.

Dishonest azzhats like you often do that to divert attention form their losing arguments in a debate.

Given your handle, I bet you [bleep] up game shots all the time. Failure must be second nature to you. Making clean kills as shown in the video must be foreign to your own reality..

How about you and I get together and consider the consequences of you saying that load of crap to my face??

Some hide behind a screen name and some don�t.

Please PM me your name and address and we might be able to schedule a discussion concerning your suggestions.

Just the type of well-reasoned, logical, fact-based argument the fire has come to expect of you.

Either you consider the consequences, or you don't.

Before the shot, it MIGHT have worked out fine.

Shallow thinking stops there.

HOWEVER, it may not have worked out fine, either for the elk, or the girl.

Would a young "hunter" have been encouraged by the sight of a wounded elk, writhing on the ground, gut shot and unable to escape?

Or an elk gut shot, that DID escape (worse), to die later, unrecovered, because of an unforseen twist of fate?

The girl was used to make a point, and hoopefully sell a product, though she may not realize that.

Congratulations.

Please quit quoting him.

The odds of any "downside" of taking the shot in the OP video were FAR less than a total [bleep] up like you snipping at a deer at 50 yards.

Hence your fixation on muffing shots.

I don't see how that young woman was "used" for ANYTHING, azzhole. She is obviously over 21. She was legally hunting elk with a borrowed precision rifle.

Also the shot was set up by someone who has more brains and intellect than you obviously can muster. Hence your envy and desire to dwell on the "what if" rather than the reality of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

People like you are truly a waste of human potential.

How about you PM me your phone # and address and I will give you all the answers you request and we can discuss consequence of many things, be it shots at elk or other things you have posted?

I've read this thread and have some opinions about the video that I won't bother posting as they have been covered. However, I think that the lady in the video is really not getting her due. The wind might have been figured (tricky) and the elevation (simple), but her shot was terrific. She showed little hesitation in making what turned out to be a great shot on a transitioning target. Regardless of her history with that rifle, her skill (natural or otherwise) shouldn't be overlooked. Anyone who has practiced at like ranges should easily recognize the difficulty of such definitive shooting. I would be cautious of discounting her ability. Of course, a stopped watch is right twice a day, but accidents at such range don't typically result in hits.

STFU!...I say bring on the female hunting videos. Sure beats watching a dude killing game.

I've killed a chit load of game & doubt I could make a 688 yard shot. She knew what she was doing & good for her. Congrats to the girl.

I see the issue of short-range shooting or long-range shooting as irrelevant. Field craft, knowledge of the animal being hunted � these things are virtually unmentioned in the 30some pages of crap I�ve wasted my time reading. The only hint that anyone involved with this �shot� knew anything about the country or the animal is when JB states that the shooter rides her horses where the �shot� occurred. For all we know she has ridden within inches of that herd. Maybe the herd has grown use to her hunting birds and doesn�t even spook when she is around. Maybe she hand feeds them occasionally. Hell, it�s possible that if she didn�t have a camera crew and JB screaming directions spooking the elk she might have been able to get within inches before taking her shot.

No mention of hunting pressure.
No mention of who spent the off season scouting the elk.

Could-a, would-a, should-a, Don't go out side of a bomb bunker a meteorite may fall on you

Wow! The video that keeps on giving. 7000+ posts and the vitriol is still flying. Carry on.

Lookie here boys, fresh meat...








Merry Xmas???

The elk died.

End of discussion.

I wish I had some of the meat.

JM

+1. Not knowing her, and not being there to see what transpired, people should be cautious about discounting anything or jumping to conclusions. Especially when they're considering accusations of "unethical" conduct.

But caution doesn't seem to figure in on threads like this.

What, none of you guys have ever had a partner or a guide range a shot for you??? Seriously? She did a good job with the shot.

Read the whole thread and these 3 thoughts came to mind 1.damned good job of spotting and coaching JB 2. congrats to the gal for her success 3. sure wish I could a met a gal like that 20 years ago.Finally to the detractors of this thread sure hope your next life is better. Magnum Man

Magnum Man,
as I see it the only difference between big stick and you is the side of the argument he was on. Both of you avoid addressing a posters position to win/try to win style points.

The shooter made a good shot, sure. But isn't the purpose behind the video to demonstrate that anyone with jb's system and jb setting up the shot can do the same thing?

the post show that the shooter is a hunter, and may have been the one to scout the elk. The post fail to state whether she could get closer that 688 yards.

Life is great, little more snow this year than last by this same time. Makes me happy. Been shooting any LR? I have been shooting out to 500 at my range. We should go bust some rocks.

1) How do you know what the poster's purpose was, without asking? Why don't you ask him? Personally, I don't care what his purpose was, as he is a sponsor on this website and as such should expect that he can do a little promotion now and again. I get some value out of videos like these, because they show what is possible with the right experience and skills. Some say an elk at 600+ yards with a .243 is pushing the envelope, and that may be true. But the video shows that it can be done, and to me, that is a good data point. And no, it doesn't mean that I'm gonna run out and try to emulate it.

2) Whether the hunter could get closer is really none of your concern, unless you want to say that everyone should share your same ethic on getting closer vs. making a long shot. Who are you to say that?

40O
The first three sentences of this thread:
Short video of elk hunt from this weekend. These elk have been hunted all fall and are pretty wary.

This was the third time we setup on the herd and the first chance she had for a shot.

That was very nice, I bet she was pretty jazzed up for several days after making that shot. I'd like to put that scope on my 240 wby.

Good Job, John!!!

the very first post-


Who cares if he is trying to sell something. I enjoy the superbowl ads even remember a few but pretty sure none have convinced me to go buy their crap!

What hours work best for you to man the how far is too far hotline?

Here in Arizona it is the liberals that support rights without responsibility and the conservatives who hold that rights go hand in hand with responsibility. On the issue of hunting, liberals and conservatives often come across as hypocrites � Liberals who normally support all �lifestyle� choice decrying those who consider hunting a part of our life and Conservatives supporting any type of �hunting� even if it fails to demonstrate any of the �responsibility� we expect and demand for the exercise of rights in other areas.

As far as who I am to take a position, I�m one of the people that actually go to game and fish meetings when something is on the table I feel strongly about. Canned hunts, scouting from an airplane and other things I oppose I speak out about.

So, what do you hunters thing about the business that set up a remote controlled rifle with a camera on top that could be controlled from someone over the internet? Boy, can you imagine? Someone in China hits the space bar firing a rifle on the other side of the World!!!!! Now that�s long range keyboarding�I mean hunting�I mean shooting�.

I started my post by saying that the short-range or long-range shooting is irrelevant. Did you miss that part? It was the first sentence, right at the beginning. Went something like this �I see the issue Short-range shooting or long-range shooting as irrelevant."

Yawn.

As far as remote controlled rifles, that comparison is absurd. Remote-controlled rifles violate the basic tenets of firearms safety since the shooter isn't present and can't know what lies beyond the target.

As far as liberals/conservatives, from where I sit, the more relevant point is that liberals think there should be limits on things like how far one should shoot at game animals, etc., and conservatives would say that if the shooter can reliably make the shot then it's nobody else's business how far the shot is.

"Taking responsibility" means not taking a shot that's beyond your limitations, and by definition there cannot be one "responsible distance" that fits all. Who are you to argue with that, or to tell people what their own responsible distance is?

LMAO, best line so far.

1 question for John Burns.




Have you EVER lost/not recovered a wounded animal while filming these long-range shots???....be HONEST!


To me the real thrill of hunting is how CLOSE you can get to an animal and ethically harvest it....long-range sniping of animals seems to fit the bill for either 1 of 2 style of hunters....The Lazy....or inept...which one are U?

The greatest hunters are the ones that take game the closet....with primitive weapons....not from extreme ranges....I find your videos along with Best of the West repugnant.

How did this go from long range hunting ethics to robotic rifles?


[bleep] I love this site. Just need to argue about religion for 7 pages then we can wrap this abortion up.

And yet another idiot imposes his own ignorant opinion on the rest of us.

Check out corey006 post here...

He's shopping long range scopes then makes the remark above??

No, the greatest hunters are those that can do both, as well as knock down birds with a shotgun.

As far a wounding an animal, and whether one needs to get close or not, one of the foremost experts (TJ Conrads) on bowhunting with traditional bows, the epitome of your hallowed primitive weapons, says that a traditional bowhunter's maximimum range is the range at which that bowhunter can reliably place an arrow in the vitals 8 out of 10 times. I have no idea what's J. Burn's failure rate is, but I'd be willing to bet it's less than 20%.

He's just your typical window licker, nothing more nothing less.

Well that is a tough question. Normally I don�t like pigeon holing myself into a response on an open forum.

I also don�t feel like I am so one dimensional that I have to choose between lazy and inept. Why can�t I be both??

I do get your point that on some days the lazy might be more prevalent but then again I can be really inept even while I am lazy and I sure have been known to be lazy on those days when my ineptitude is simply off the chart.

Hope this help clear things up for you fella.

Corey: Just curious.....What type primitive weapons do you hunt with?

Do you use a scoped centerfire rifle at all in the hunting you have done?

What is "extreme range" to you?

At what distance does a hunter transform from "lazy and inept" to "highly skilled"?

I guess us AZ guys that hunt Coues and have to take shots at 400,500,600 yards with our gear are unethical. Gosh I feel so ashamed of myself.
Guess I should be ashamed of myself too for letting a client from PA kill a MD buck at 425 yards without knowing what he could do with his rifle.

I wish I could hunt in fields and wooded areas where I only have to shoot a couple hundred yards. But I can't. Our hunting can sometimes turn into long range hunting. No option if you want that buck. Watching the video over and over, I feel JB and that girl had no other option but to shoot or not shoot. She had the confidence and proved what she could do. I guess more people on here would have liked her to have shot a 7RM so she could flinch and make a bad hit at 300 yards just so they could say she was shooting too much gun. I think that 243 was a good tool with little recoil so a person could make that long shot and not worry about kick or flinch just making the shot.

Again most people on here just can't be happy for her.

Kique

Looks like Corey is gone.....

Must be scope shopping..

corey006 comment....



corey006, it's obvious that you were shopping long range scopes after watching John Burns kill things at distance.

Funny!!

Then corey sees a girl killing an elk at distance and he can't stand the idea of it because he can't do it. So now he has to rip it to make up for his own male deficiency's.

This is the best post of the thread.

John,

How close to an animal have you loosed a VLD?

They obviously perform great at extended range, how about <100 yards?

Well 1st things first, I haven't seen any posts by big stick on this thread maybe you are confused. No need to compare me to him as I have not the skills or ability at enlightened profanity to get my point across as he does.Don't drink koolaid or need style points I am, who I am. I don't doubt that JB's system is one of the best and that he is one of the best LR shooters out there. I have done some LR shooting with BPCR, well only to 1000 yds and enjoyed it very much. LR shooting with a reg smokeless CFR is new to me and thru the video and resulting thread I can see I need to do some and expand my experiences with my more modern rifles as just something else to learn and succeed at. Shot the leg off an antelope one time way out there for me and while I did not lose her she suffered more than I want to tolerate so I've kept most of my game shooting under 350 yds.That was then, now days the improvement in lazer range finding , scopes, good ballistic programs,and great bullets availible make me want to learn how to use them all and expand my abilities. Ethics to anything you do is your responsibility not someone elses.The BPCR LR shooting taught me right off the bat that you can make shots that you didn't imagine you could, if you learn and practice them. A long the way in life I also learned if I could read and follow instructions I was usually successful at what I was doing. It's no stretch of my imagination to think that gal can't take verbal instruction follow the directions and achieve success either.I don't know if she couldn't have got closer and it's a moot point now cause hindsight is allways 20/20. 400 you have a good day. Magnum Man

I can't answer for John Burns, but I've killed a number of animals at less than 100 yards with VLD's, and have seen several other people do it. The bullets ranged from 115-grain .25's to 185-grain .30's, with several others in between, and the shortest range was 18 yards.

Thanks.

I was wondering if they would hold up at higher velocity, 2800+. Seems they can.

While I was rock chuck hunting the farmer's kid rode up on his motorcycle. He asked what we were shooting at. We were on a quarter section. That is a mile long and a quarter mile wide. We were parked on the road on one side and shooting at the 'chucks beyond the road on the other side of the field more than 400 yards away. The kid wanted to shoot one.

A few minutes later one came out on a rock for sunning. I dialed the scope for the shot and got the kid into position. I had him dry fire one shot to check the trigger. He fired. The chuck flopped over. First long shot for a fourteen year old and it was a hit on a small target about half the size of a house cat.

Congrats to the girl and John for his ability to dial and dope.

Nice shooting there. That vapor trail was cool as heck. Congrats to the young lady!

I'm not John or JB, but I've some experience with the vld at short range. Shot two antelope and an oryx in the past two months with 6.5 140 vld this year (3175 fps at the muzzle). Both antelope were under 100 yards and the oryx at 140 yards.

One of the antelope and the oryx performed perfectly. The other antelope was shot high in the shoulder, shooting slightly uphill. Ending up making a mess of him. I suspect that I hit the spine, which caused the mess. Made a quick follow up shot to put him kill him. He wasn't going anywhere, but I wasn't going to wait on him to bleed out.



Here is the other antelope. Shot right at 100 yards and he was DRT. Everything was liquid on the inside.



The bullet performed perfectly on the oryx. Shot him broadside at 140 and again on the run at about 225. The first shot would have killed him, but he was running the wrong direction from the truck and I was trying to shorten the pack out. Oryx are pretty tough animals and I was very happy how the bullet performed on him. Everything was mush.

Can't imagine anyone calling a hunter lazy for shooting a critter at any range. It's been my experience that a good chunk of the work starts when the critter drops.

Particularly as the animal gets larger in size.

I've never hunted elk/moose but the idea of cleaning, quartering and getting the meat back to camp - doesn't strike me as lazy man's work.

Seems the bullet went right through the elk. I see a puff of something behind the elk before it hits the ground.

jlboykin,

Yeah, VLD's can make a mess if they hit big bone, especially on smaller animals. The last animal I shot with the 140 6.5 was also a pronghorn at just over 160 yards, and I made sure to hit ribs behind the shoulder! Didn't lose more than a bite of meat.

Nice gembuck! They sure taste great too.

Where does anyone on this thread claim to be a great hunter, buch less the greatest hunter.

And what primitive weapons do you use to hunt with to the exclusion of modern hunting tools?

I can sorta relate to the idea that men don't want to do like the "coach" tells them when they think they know something better.

On opening day of elk season my pick up got stuck in the snow. It started to slide off the road as I was tying to get it out. I stopped and walked out about three and a half miles to meet the tow truck. After he had it hooked up he gave instructions for me to get in and start it. Then he told me to put it in drive but not to touch the throttle.

I kept wanting to touch the throttle a little when it was pointing the correct direction but overcame the urge. When it was out I told him about the desire to touch the throttle and asked if he ever had folks who did. He said occationally he unhooks them and leaves because they just can't cooperate.

Maybe the male hunters can't control the urge to do their own thing.

like the urge to procreate?....

Thanks! I have a freezer full off steaks, sausage, summer sausage and jerky. The missile range was a fantastic hunt. I've been twice and it is always a lot of fun!

Forgot to ask, which 6.5 were you using?

6.5-06 with a 26" barrel, about 2950 muzzle velocity.

Madmooner,

My results have also been very positive. While I am pretty lazy and inept, once in a while I am also really lucky and stumble into something at closer range.

I always figured your bullet had better work up close as a first priority. After you are sure you have good �normal� range performance then you can start to use long range performance as criteria in selecting your hunting bullet.

I would have no qualms shooting an elk right in the shoulder at 50yds with the .243 Win/105 VLD and have seen it work successfully in that exact situation.

John, I appreciate the sense of humor you've shown throughout this discussion.

Holy Berger [bleep]! I guess a full body mount is outta the question.

To those that have a problem with just dry firing and coaching, you have never taught/ coached shooting. I took my second "daughter" to the range this summer. She had fired one round out of a rifle in her life(24yo) and with 10 minutes of coaching and dry firing, she went 7 straight @ 595 yards, keeping her shots inside 1 1/2 MOA with the rifle below. The doe shot was 675 yards. Shots out to ~700 are really not that hard with the right set up.

Here is a more PC picture. I think I've found a new cape for him.

That is a very big pronghorn! I am guessing at least 16 inches.

Very nice John and congrats to the young lady!

The responses to this post are kinda funny. In teaching long range classes and training guys to shoot long range, I will say that its WAY easier to teach women. They don't think they know everything and actually listen. My fiance has never shot a gun before and is slightly intimidated by them. So I set her up behind my comp rifle, dialed the scope, called a wind hold for her, and she put 5 shots in under 3" at 878yds. John has put in enough time and knows exactly where his rifles shoot, as do the rest of us that shoot long range daily. I wouldn't hesitate to use my 243 Rogue with 115's on elk out to 700 if I had to, mainly because I know exactly what it does. At 5000 ASL, it still has 1335ft/lbs of energy at 700 yds. Not ideal, but would definitely get the job done.

Was there much wind on the range that range day with your daughter or when you shot the doe? Wyoming winds makes hitting things pretty hard for me. I agree that on dead calm days it is pretty much a matter of LRF, dial, and apply basic rifle marksmanship principals to a good setup like yours to hit. However, with MT blowing and CO sucking it is always windy in WY . Are you self-taught on reading wind or military trained?

I've had similar experience with the 7mm 168gr VLD's:

I would say that is similar!

you know is a shot more ethical if its from a good rest, accurate rifle and good equipment, tested equipment, fired at 600+ yards or an off hand shot at 275 yards?? The more long range shooting I do I would rather take a good rest and the longer shot anyday.

thats really cool seeing what a 105 vld will do. that class of bullet really takes the 243 into a class of its own.

john, what kind of speeds are you pushing those to. my load from a 24" 243 ai is 3130 fps from h4831 sc. could go a bit faster but the pockets in the lapua brass loosen faster than I like beyond those speeds.

John when using the vld up close are you still aiming high shoulder? Just curious where you recommended.
P.s. will the greybull stock ever be available for any other actions? Love mine on my 7mm.

wow!

"Wow" to the amazing long shot with a 243, and "wow" to the 40 pages of ...um... "discussion" that followed.

wow.

I would shorten up the 275 yard off hand crack by quite a bit, but in general,one is "science",and the other is "art".

I agree in general principle given the average shooter's offhand capabilities. I actually LOVE shooting offhand and am fairly good at it, but I also feel reading the wind for long shots has a degree of "art" to it as well.

A good wind meter will give you the windspeed and direction at the firing point ,but we all know it is never constant all the way out to the target. Lot's of things to judge and calculate.

One the doe shot, I was using 1/2mil right wind. For Shyla's shots, she dialed 1.5 mils left wind. Self taught. I shoot ~3000 rounds of center fire rifle a year. There is no substitute for trigger time. i shoot over 300 days a year, and prefer to shoot when the wind is blowing hard/unpredictably. It pays off.

At lease fifty guys have shot their first 800 yard groups on my range, usually with one of my guns. Most of those guys were just average shooters and to the man anyone of those first shots would have killed an elk. There is a lot to be said for dry firing and parallax free scopes. I Keep an 8 twist 6BR rifle sighted in for 800 yards and keep rounds loaded for it for the express purpose of letting people who visit to shoot their first long range shots.

The only thing that would have made the video get more replies, would be if Kassandra wore a bikini for the shot, and the camera angle was different.

Stoney, I hear ya

My 13yr old shot his first buck DRT this year at 225yds with his 243 with 100gr Hornady handloads. No it's not 688yds, but he is only 13 and weighs 80 lbs soaking wet with his football pads on. The rifle is just a factory SPS with a trigger job and bedding, but it shoots very good.

I say congrats to the young lady for her first elk and damn fine shooting!

EddiF congrats to your 13 year old, nice buck.

+1, great first buck, he looks happy as he should.

Do they have an early youth season up there, looks warm out?

Well you are just not as lazy and inept as I am so you got closer. He was luckier than Kasandra was as to the guide.

Well done.

Congrats to your son and you Eddie. That's a nice Michigan whitetail anywhere in the state. Is that the 243 with the green cerakote color that my grandson picked out for my 30-06? My grandson got his first deer this year on November 26th, 110 yards with his H&R 20 gauge bull barrel shooting a 3" Buckhammer slug. One shot in the boiler room. Not as big as your son's but I'm very proud of him as I know that you are for your boy. Give the young man my congratulations.

Enjoyed the video and congrats to all involved from the shooter to the photographer.

My biggest question is: Were the tenderloins good? After all, that's the real reward for such a great shot.

Normally don't download U-tube being on dial-up but after reading all the responses I downloaded the first minute and half today while I was in town getting grub..
Amazing..
What an impressive display of shooting and power out of that little .243..
Congratulations to Kasandra and John..