|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,437
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,437 |
Funny but typical to see the magnumitis guys out thinking 600 yards ya need a rimmed case or more.
600 isn't that long of a poke if you know your rifle. On deer sized game you don't need the tons of energy or impact velocity that many here think you do.
The question is what caliber do you prefer to shoot enough to get to know it well enough to make the 600 yard shot?
Your second biggest concern will be the wind. You don't need speed to beat the wind necessarily. Slippery bullets and knowing your rifle trump the typical mindset.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,496
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,496 |
338-378 shooting 300 gr bullets, just right.
1 and done
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,437
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,437 |
338-416 runs em better... jus sayin'
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 205
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 205 |
I'd go straight to a big 30 and the 208 A-Max...for a rifle. Not bad, but the 7mmWSM will push the 162Amax to 3200. You'll have push the 208Amax to the same speed to beat it, and that takes a big case. As stated before I like it a little smaller. 260AI will take it to 1000yds.
NRA Endowment member, BAA Lifer, USPSA Life member, SCSA Life member, ICORE
To teach those that don't know, To remind those that do Know, To correct those that think they know.
-Helio Gracie
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 118
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 118 |
The way I look at it is most of the people I know, and have been around that got into long range shooting and hunting started on a 308 Win. Kind of the standard for tactical rifles, quality box match grade ammo, long barrel life and thousands of rouds down range. Most hunt with it out to 600 and even more, but most often to 600 before they want more. So it's hard to ask about 400-600 yard deer cartridge without listing the 308.
"Fast is fine accurate is final"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210 |
The easier question would be to ask what rifle would not be suitable for 400-600 yards. Other than my 14T 223 and my .300 whisper I do not think I own a gun that is not more than adequate for 600 yards.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Not bad, but the 7mmWSM will push the 162Amax to 3200.
Not argiung its' effectivness but what load and barrel are you running to get a 162 from a WSM at 3200 fps? Just curious as the case has no more capacity than a 7RM,and that is a lot of velocity for that bullet in that case... I have seen it done with 160's and factory fodder in the 7mmWSM, but there were ejctor marks,and fired cases were stretched so badly they wouldn't go back in the rifle(?)
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,237 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,237 Likes: 2 |
Great post, as always, Bob
First of all, OP, if you have to ask what caliber rifle you need to shoot deer at 600 yards, YOU AIN'T READY TO SHOOT DEER AT 600 YARDS!
Take the best rifle you have, put up a 4X8 sheet of plywood at 600 yards with a target plastered in the middle- Shoot two rounds from a field position, get up walk around and shoot 2 more from another field position- do that until you have ten shots on the target and then go look at your group. You see, when you shoot at 600 yards, every time you change your hand position on the rifle. it shifts your group. I don't know this from reading, I know this from shooting rifle matches at 600 yards.
Then, consider what just a 3 mile an hour change in wind does to your bullet at 600 yards. When you shoot 600 yard matches,you get to shoot a sighter shot or two, and then try to shoot your target run with the flags as close to where they were when you fired your sighter. Thats because wind doping at six hundred yards isn't as simple as holding your wind gauge up and dialing in a correction. Over 600 yards the wind will change direction and velocity many times, and to predict drift at 600 yards in any significant wind is damned near impossible for most of us, at least any one I ever saw shoot.
And these are just two of the messy little problems that arise when trying to shoot 600 yards. Parallax, bullet concentricity, mirage, shot to shot deviation in velocity, all these things and more take on much more significance past 3 and 400 yards. Then there is the time of flight of the bullet. At 600 yards you are talking bullet flight times of 1/2 second and up, which means if you had done everything perfectly when the trigger tripped and that bullet was aimed exactly for that animals heart. that animal has enough time to take a step and the bullet ends up in his paunch.
Next, what bullet are you going to use that will expand reliably at 600 yards? Here's another thing I know from seeing it- No matter what headstamp you have on your cartridge, a bullet that hits in the chest cavity and doesn't expand is not going to give decisive kills.
Now to clarify what I mean a little more- Some people can kill at 600 yards as easily as I can at 200- It's analogous to a 600 pound bench press- just because most people can't do it, doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people that can- BUT, those people that can shoot 600 yards ( or bench press 600 pounds) have invested a lot of time and money in honing their skills- I dam sure wouldn't want Scenarshooter or Big Stick (AKA Boxer) or BobinNH shooting at my pet dog at 600 yards.
Secondly, I don't claim to be a match shooter of any significance- I shot the four position matches years ago while in the guards, but the learning curve on learning what you need to learn isn't that dam steep.
Boxer harps on the fact (perhaps a tad excessively?) that you need to think bullets and BC instead of headstamps- The reason for that is BC mitigates two problems of long range shooting-wind drift and bullet expansion. So, if you want to shoot stuff way out there, that's the place to start looking-
Fred
Superb, well thought post that should be stuck permanently at the top of this forum. Bravo.
Proud NRA Life Member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,437
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,437 |
Accuracy trumps all..but there's much to that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 205
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 205 |
The easier question would be to ask what rifle would not be suitable for 400-600 yards. Other than my 14T 223 and my .300 whisper I do not think I own a gun that is not more than adequate for 600 yards. True, true.
NRA Endowment member, BAA Lifer, USPSA Life member, SCSA Life member, ICORE
To teach those that don't know, To remind those that do Know, To correct those that think they know.
-Helio Gracie
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,150 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,150 Likes: 5 |
Most any deer rifle will kill a deer at 400-600 if the shooter can do his part. Yep. A 260/308 with proper bullets is solid out to 600yd. A 7mm Mag is a 1000yd rifle with proper bullets, IF the rifle is accurate enough, and an even bigger IF the shooter is accurate enough. I don't get to practice enough to be deadly at 1000 myself. Yea, the answer IMO is different than several decades ago when we didn't have range finders, turrets and ranging reticles; at least they were not commonly used. Then you went with a screamer to flatten trajectory and so minimize mid-trajectory height and hold over. Now, with the LRF you know the distance to the target and the drop at that range ( you must shoot at the various ranges to know this precisely). You then pick the correct horizontal cross-hair or turn the turret the correct number of clicks. It doesn't take a lot of power to kill a deer--I.e., the 308 will kill a deer at 800 yds. This then means there are a pick-up load of cartridges from the fast 6mms with a fast twist to you name how big you want to go. More importantly, a deers vitals are not that big--think a 8" dinner plate to be conservative, so a better question may be can your cartridge- rifle combination shoot into less than MOA at that range or into a MOA at 600 yds?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,051
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,051 |
My farthest shot was with a Remington 760 chambered in 308. The shot was 517 yards. The little 80 pound coues deer didn't know what hit him.
I also own a 7 Rem Mag and I am sure it will out shoot what I am capable of. I was shooting my buddies 7RM and was busting rocks with it to 550 with ease. The round can do a ton.
I am currently building a 25-06 one piece at a time and am planning on having it set up to be a 600 yard max deer rifle.
A ton of choices for sure, but with todays bullets and todays scopes, just about any rifle caliber can be set up to be a 600 yard deer rifle. Get one you can shoot comfortably and accurately and it will perform well.
Kique
Enrique O. Ramirez
CLAN OF THE BORDER RATS - Member
"..faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.." Hebrews 11:1
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,207
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,207 |
There are more 600 yd rifles than 600 yd riflemen. Get good optics and have a trigger job done on any number of rifles, and you have the rifle. In my gunsafe, I have at least 4, probably 5, 600 yd deer rifles, and 3 of them are unmodified, with one that has a glass stock as the only improvement.
Spend the rest of your money on practice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 902
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 902 |
I really like my 7mm mag with a 162 A-max
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,539
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,539 |
Muzzleloader or 45-70x400 gr bullet
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33 |
Again, if you want the easiest way to kill deer with a rifle to 600 yards the best I have found is the 257 wby or 257 STW using 100 grain ttsx bullets around 3800 fps. My 257 wby with a mil dot scope is trivial to 600 yards. Zero the first mil dot above the crosshair dead on at 100 yards. The crosshair is now about 460 yards. The first mil dot below the crosshair is 600 yards. The second mil dot is 700 yards. Limited recoil with the 100 grainer and so flat it just makes it easy if you have the shooting skills. Because of the low bc there are better choices to go half mile and beyond.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516 |
In your opinion what caliber is best suited for hunting deer at 400-600 yards? For shooting at game past 400 yards, your primary objectives should be to (A) minimize wind drift, since that is, by a considerable margin, the most unpredictable element and most difficult obstacle to conquer when shooting that far and (B) keep recoil at a tolerable/manageable level so you enjoy practicing because you are going to be practicing a lot, and you'll want to enjoy it (and there's no reason not to enjoy practicing since there are some great long-range cartridges with moderate recoil). In my opinion, based on the research that I've done, the best long-range deer cartridges would be a 6.5mm along the lines of .260 Rem, 6.5x55, 6.5x284, or 6.5-06 with a high BC bullet (choose the velocity and recoil you want). Those 6.5mm cartridges provide the best combination of high BC bullets, good muzzle velocity, and modest recoil. Just be sure to pick a bullet/cartridge combination that has sufficient velocity for bullet expansion at 600 yards in the conditions you are going to be hunting in (e.g., elevation, temperature, etc.).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 33 |
Anytime you are picking a cartridge to serve a purpose you must look at what is more important to you. When you are looking at close range such as 600 yards and in super high speed flat shooting cartridges can trump slow moving high bc bullets. From 600-800, 800-1000, 1000-1200 yards and further all get exponentially harder to make shots for each step requiring a different thought process and different cartridges depending on what you are trying to accomplish. But for close range shooting 600 yards and in can be done with about any over the counter rifle and centerfire cartridge capable of killing a deer. Just some are better than others.
A hunter must decide what is more important. Shooting a point and shoot laser making hits very easy at 600 yards and in or a slow moving bullet that makes hits difficult with trajectory holdover. Inside of 600 yards windage is going to be a trivial difference however when you must get off a quick shot at a deer the lazer can have you on it and a dead deer quickly. Instead of fooling with trying to figure out clicks or holdover while the deer gets away. Shooting at targets you use one set of rules when you have plenty of time but shooting at wild game animals requires far more variables to enter your decision.
We often use a 257 wby shooting 100 grain barnes ttsx bullets at 3860 fps here in windy Wyoming for deer and antelope to 600 yards. I own over 150 rifles of all kinds and for this purpose this is about the best thing we have found for getting on animals quickly and killing them. If you are shooting deer back east where you have much less wind to deal with than us it may even be a better choice. I have been modifying my hunting skills for about fifty years all over north america and building long range rifles for about 40 years. I have rifles for many uses in all calibers and wildcats to kill stuff from point blank to a mile and test them all at those ranges regularly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516 |
Just curious - What's the barrel length on your .257 Wby that gets 3860 fps with the Barnes 100 gr TTSX? Sounds like that's some gun.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,087
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,087 |
The way I look at it is most of the people I know, and have been around that got into long range shooting and hunting started on a 308 Win. Kind of the standard for tactical rifles, quality box match grade ammo, long barrel life and thousands of rouds down range. Most hunt with it out to 600 and even more, but most often to 600 before they want more. So it's hard to ask about 400-600 yard deer cartridge without listing the 308. I agree. ddj
Many men go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. - Henry David Thoreau
The best part of hunting and fishing was the thinking about going and the talking about it after you got back. - Robert Ruark
|
|
|
|
|
554 members (1beaver_shooter, 219 Wasp, 12344mag, 007FJ, 1lessdog, 1badf350, 63 invisible),
2,448
guests, and
1,283
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,937
Posts18,519,017
Members74,020
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
