Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Had it with Rem, and Win. brass in 7/08........

The Norma brass has more springback than the Winchester or Remington, thus not as subject to the "oversizing" mentioned above. If you would load one round of the Winchester or Remington and fire it, I think you'll see my point. Ask yourself this...would the Remington or Winchester cycle before you resized it? If you told me you had a lot of Winchester that wouldn't work, I might believe it. If you told me you had a lot of remington that wouldn't work, I might believe it....But if you tell me that you had a lot of each at the same time that won't work....It's not the brass. Only trying to help,
Rick

I bought a used Ruger M77 Hawkeye in 7 mag last year and had extraction problems even with starting loads.
I was able to chamber RP brass with my handloads and winchester and hornady factory loads.
Problem was after firing extraction.

After fiddiling with it I found that rounds chambered alittle hard both reloads and factory new stuff.

I took it back to the shop I bought it from and they discovered some rust in the chamber causing the problem. They honed it a little to clean it up and the thing has worked fine since.

Perhaps a possibility

RickinTN...... I see your point. Out of the 100 plus 7/08 cases I have, approximately 20-30 once fired brass would not cycle after FL resizing. With brand new brass, have had 5-10 that would not cycle. So, I sized them, trimmed them, and they still would not cycle. So, If it is not the brass, why is the extractor working sporadically? What am overlooking? Thanks for your help.

You could be pushing the shoulder back to far after sizing. The hint is when you said partial sizing worked. Fire a case that isn't cycling and see.
I made my headspace comparator. Actual number isn't important. What is important is a repeatable method to check how far your moving the shoulder on sizing. I try for .002 but it can vary a thousandths or so.

So, In theory, if I take a few cases that will not extract. Load them and fire them, if they extract after firing then there is a headspace problem. If they still don't cycle, then the extractor is the culprit. Is this a safe assumption?..... I know "assumption" is the "mother of all F___-ups"

Yes, I would say that is correct.

Mark,
Yes, pretty much. If the cases have been sized too much they aren't long enough for the extractor to catch the rim. If you fire one, or more, and the extractor will grip them, then this is your problem. Firing them, assuming a somewhat normal pressure load, will expand or headspace them to your chamber. After this the extractor can grip the rim. It sounds like, but without measuring I can't be sure, that your rifles headspace is on the generous side.If one of the loaded cases that wouldn't eject won't fire either, but has a slight indednt on the primer, this tends to confirm my suspisions as the primer is too far away from the striker (firing pin) to get a good strike. I'm concerned that although the Norma brass will work that your sizing die setup may be that it will overwork that brass also and lead to failed cases early. Excess headspace, whether in the rifle, or created by too much sizing is the culprit in many casehead seperations.
I hope this makes sense, and if I can help further let me know either by this forum or by PM.
good Luck,
Rick

Also...Not necessarily a headspace "problem", but you're on the right track. Cases should be sized minimally as to barely fit the chamber. Benchrest shooters and others that I have talked with through the years headspace their cases to their rifles. This is done by loading a round with the bullet somewhat hard seated into the rifling and firing the round. The bullet into the lands keeps the case from moving forward during firing, and makes it headspace to the chamber. After this is done the brass is only neck sized so as not to effect the headspace relationship between the brass and the chamber. On the occasion the brass becomes tight in the chamber, the shoulder is "bumped" with a bump die just enough for the case to freely chamber again.
Hope this helps,
Rick

PS Norma brass, or any for that matter, is too expensive to overwork and wear out early, not to mention you probably will get better accuracy with cases that fit the chamber properly.

The dies I'm using now are brand new X-sizer die set. This is the second set of dies. I thought the previous set i was using was part of the problem so I got new ones. All the brass I have is not more than twice fired.

What i think i'm going to do is get some of the NEW brass that wont cycle and load those to be fired. Hopefully they will extract. I'll post my findings in a day or two. Duty calls. Thanks again for all your help. It is really appreciated. Regards.... mark

Please let us know what the results are after firing the cases that won't extract now. If you would like to mail me two or three of the cases that won't extract, and two or three that have been fired in your chamber for comparison I would be happy to take the measurements for you and try to get to the bottom of the problem. If this interest you just send a PM for my mailing address.
Take care, and Good Luck,
Rick

Thanks again to all for your input. I'll report back shortly.

I note the use of X-dies, I wonder if this could the the problem? X-dies are a little different than regular dies. Just a thought.

I have 6 50 round batches of .308 for my Kimber Montana. Of those, one batch gives me trouble chambering. I don't think it is rim thickenss, I think it is rim diameter. "Whatever." One of these days I'm going to remember to remove that batch from rotation. The rest is all fine.

Tom

Well, it seems WE have solved the problem. After firing the NEW brass that would not cycle, after firing they cycled just fine. This leads me to the conclusion that there is too much headspace. Does this sound like a logical conclusion? If so, then the next step....

I've never encountered this problem before. What is the easiest way to overcome the excess headspace?

To ALL again, thank you.

I'm not sure what this means. Are you talking about new brass or once fired brass?

Excessive headspace means the brass is not long enough to span the gap between the bolt face and shoulder of the chamber. That would have the cases falling into the chamber quite easily, not presenting a problem getting them into the chamber.

If I understand the problem, you're using exactly backwards terminology.

If your dies will not allow the brass to be sized enough for the fired cases to chamber when reloaded, you're not sizing it enough. If you're already down against the shell holder, see of a gunsmith can mill off .01 inch or so off the top of your shellholder. Otherwise, you may need to replace the FL dies with a new set or have the die manufacturer send new ones. It is, of course, possible the chamber was cut a hair short and you need to send the gun back for repair.

In the last 2 years or so, the tolerances on dies and on chambers seems to have gotten a lot closer. We used to have more "play" to work with, more freedom to adjust. New dies seem more likely to have to be run clear down to the shellholder. If the chamber is just a wee bit wonky, you may not be able to compensate as we used to.

At least, that's been my observation.

TOM... to make a long story short:
- new or once fired brass, fired, after FL resize would not extract. Some brand new brass wouldn't extract with nothing even done to it.

- have used two different sets of dies with the same conclusion. After FL resize, some brass would not cycle. A partial resize would work most of the time to get the brass to extract.

- took 3 pcs of BRAND NEW brass that would not extract. Loaded brass with 43g varget and a nbt and fired. Brass then cycled perfectly.... conclusion: excess headspace yay or nay ??? PS..... ALL brass chambers fine...just some won't extract.

Yay. Back your sizing die out a bit.

Jordan.... please explain in detail....this is new ground to me. Thanks.

Mark,
Jordan is right. Your dies are sizing the brass too much. If you are setting the sizing die to "bump" the shellholder, this is the most sizing the die can do, and may be necessary in some rifles. Obviously it is too much sizing for your rifle. If you back the sizing die off of the shellholder a bit, it will reduce the amount the die is sizing your brass. From information here and in PM's I think one full turn would be a place to start (that would be about .0035). Size one piece of fired brass with this setting and then see if the case will extract. If so, you should be good to go.I like to "square" my dies in the press and without the die touching the shellholder I use a different technique. Do you have another shellholder? If so, put the die about one turn off of the shellholder, lower the ram, place the spare shellholder between the shellholder in the press and the die. Raise the ram on the press to put pressure on the bottom of the die, and tighten the lock ring while holding pressure on the die. Make sense? This should give you ample sizing in the neck to hold the bullet, should size the body some, and not set the shoulder back, which is what you want.
Hope this helps and If there's any other questions feel free to ask.
Rick

When you fire the rifle, the brass gets fire-formed and expands to fill your chamber. Your dies are set up so that you're squeezing the brass down so much that you're creating excess head space. You need to back the sizing die body out of the press in order to solve the problem. I would screw the die into the press until the die contacts the shell holder, when the ram is fully raised. Then screw the die out another full rotation. Now after a few loadings, you'll notice that the brass is hard to chamber after sizing. Screw the die down into the press, 1/8 turn at a time, until the brass chambers smoothly and easily.