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You labor under a patently false assumption David. Either you didn't watch the link I posted or you didn't understand it. WHAT you eat largely determines your metabolism. Overconsumption of simple carbohydrates will utterly shut down fat burning in the typical person. If you plow four acres behind a mule every day, no, you won't be fat, even though you ate four of five of Mom's cathead biscuits with a huge meal at lunch, when you get back behind the plow, even though that is way more than needed to replace muscle glycogen a bunch of those calories WILL be stored as fat. Stay behind the plow and a man conditioned to it will start burning that stored fat later in the day. Now, just how healthy do you think plowing a mule 11-12 hrs/day is? Ever heard of repetitive use injuries?

Those who refuse to believe this are doomed to a task not unlike that of Sissyphus attemping to roll the rock uphill in Dante's Inferno. Unlike Sissyphus though, most of 'em ain't up to the task.

Before you point to some ever-present exception to this ( we all know one or two). Barry Sears has documented that about 25% of the US population has a "muted" insulin response to carbs. These are the folks who don't get fat from a high carb diet. The bad new is they still get cancer and heart disease from it.

This "calories-in, calories-out" arguement doesn't comport with reality. The reality is, calories-in is hormonally controlled/influenced, not only the basic Leptin-Ghrelin axis that controls hunger, but also buy poorly understood chemical interlopers like endocanabinoids (anybody wanna get high?) Guess where else your brain can get this stuff? If you guessed junk food, you'd be correct. The calories-out end of it is quite finite, not without limitation, and is also hormonally mediated. Overtrain and guess what happens? You get elevated cortisol? What does that cause? Try epic weight gain.

Your engineering premise applies to engineering, not human physiology.

These three vids total over an hour but they are well worth your time.

http://journal.crossfit.com/2010/04/insulin-body-weight-and-energy-production.tpl

Also I encourage you to read some of the writings of Gary Taubes. There are several lectures by him on Youtube.

I get all the part about what you eat being a significant part of how your metabolism works. I'm all about that. I eat 75% unprocessed foods, 20% processed, and about 5% or less meat, and that's all wild game.

However, if you take in 5K calories and burn 5.5K, you'll lose weight. It doesn't matter what your metabolism does. That's a straight energy balance.

I'm not strongly for or against one method here. I will say this though, when I was burning more calories than I was eating, I was in good shape. I was hungry all the time. And you know what, as soon as I started eating a little more, or exercising less, I gained all the weight back.

I bought "The Smarter Science of Slim" a couple weeks ago, read it,and it made sense to me. It's basically what you've been saying, about lowering your set point, increasing metabolism, etc etc. I can only give it a shot I guess, as counting calories and exercising more didn't work for me. I changed jobs and that had a lot to do with a change in habits and gaining weight back.

I say you're both right! IF you take in less calories than you actually burn, you will lose weight. BUT, taking in those calories as STARCHY carbohydrates is not the same as taking in protein/fat/veggies/fruits, and will affect the calories you burn. The simple bottom line in my book is that counting calories is for the birds, because you can't know when and how exactly your body is burning them, not to mention the questionable at best calorie estimates for exercising.

You can just lose weight eating whatever you want, but if you want to use a healthy diet in combination with exercise in order to build/maintain muscle mass, you're better off eating good foods like meat and veggies, and avoiding starches and sugars. Even if they're the gimmicky "whole grains". Maximal performance and just losing weight are two different things.

Easiest way for me to lose weight is the p90x phase 1 diet.

Get 50% of your calories from protein, 30% from Carb, and 20% from fat. That's 1 serving of carb a day, and a ton of lean protein. Some days I'm pushing over 200gr of protein I get from salmon, halibut, and deer meat. I use no supplements. I use myfitnesspal.com to track my percentages. I only do it a week or two at a time though.

Dan,

The only way you will ever get fit is to give up whiskey. Forever!

Seriously, I go much toward the Paleo or Primal type diets as well. Lots of fresh raw or lightly cooked veggies, fruits in moderation, plenty of high quality protein (mostly elk or deer for me) nuts and grains in strict moderation.

Every so often, I'll eat a big hunk of bread and I don't feel as well or have as much energy.

Doesn't Sears' Zone Diet recommend getting 35-45% of your calories from carbohydrates? And you mention eating the right foods to increase your metabolism? Why would you want to increase your metabolism? To burn more calories! You also mention simple carbohydrates. I don't think anyone here has recommended simple carbs...but rather complex carbs. I think you're agreeing with me without even knowing it.

Pretty much every diet is some amount "gimmick" if you ask me, not that anyone did. I just eat a balanced diet of 40-45% carbs (mostly complex as you get less "sugar high"), 30-35% protein, 20-25% fat. I try to limit any meal to 600cal (target ~500), healthy snacks between breakfast and lunch, and then between lunch and dinner. By adjusting total caloric intake, I can make my weight go up or down at will (intake more calories than you burn (or pass along, don't forget, everyone's body is also not the same efficiency), you gain weight - pure and simple, called the Law of Conservation of Energy). I also workout (cardio and resistance) 3-4 times per week. I'm 40, BP is 110/70, cholesterol was 120-something last time it was checked, etc., etc. I feel good, have strength, energy, etc., so it works for me.

Honestly, I think you can make any diet work for you, pure and simple. Find one that you can make work for you and stick to it. And adjust as things change (injury, more physical activity, etc.).

To lighten things up a little, I used to work for a guy in his mid-40's, on the thin side, that ate like a horse. Asked him one time how he never gained weight, he just shrugged and said "the more I eat, the more I $hit, that's all" . . .

I agree, I just eat a balanced diet as well. Mostly I just watch the type of food I put in my body rather than worry about percentages of fat/protein/carbs. I rarely eat sweets or junk food. I drink a coke about once a year. I love good beer though, I think someone else mentioned IPA and I would have to concur. Drinking a Double Haul as I write this! I also take a whey protein supplement for an additional 30g of protein daily immediately after my workout. Fad diets don't work. Epidemiologist studies have shows that within a year 70% of dieters gained back 80% of their lost weight (but with less Lean Body Mass than they had pre-diet) and w/in 2 years 98% had gained back 100% of lost weight and 70% were at least 15% heavier. The key to losing weight is doing something that is sustainable and combining it with exercise (at least 300 min/week of moderate excercise...which could be as simple as combinations of brisk walking, raking the lawn, etc...).

Not advice but I put on 20lbs of beer blubber since I quit working concrete 2 years ago.

Don't feel too bad Dan, I'm fat too......grin



Gonna lose some pounds this Spring now that there's not as much time to drink beer!


Winter can be hard on a guy.

To get in good shape fast you gotta eat every 2.5 to 3hrs. A good protein source such as fish, chicken, turkey or lean red meat with 1cup to 1.5 cups of brown rice and some steamed veggies one the side, walk for 45 minutes everyday. Lift weights 3 times a week. For breakfast though if you can eat the above start with 8-10 egg whites with 1 cup to 1.5 cups of cream of wheat or rice and your good. As you progress with your walking start taking your backpack and start adding a little weight to it in small increases each week. Also avoid any all sugars, breads, alcohol and fried foods. Add a littl avocado to about 3 of your meals and take a good multi vit-min supplement and drink plenty of water all day.

javman

Sears' Zone Diet is a 30/30/40 protein,fat,carbs. He says it must be fairly precise, as in each meal or snack must achieve this macronutrient split. If you dabble with grains, you must (unless you are part of the lucky 25%) adhere to this or you'll maintain high insulin levels, which starts a cascade of untoward effects typically leading to obesity, then diabetes and heart disease.

Sears' whole premise is he doesn't believe most folks are willing to give up certain foods, and he's right for the most part. That's why he markets a lot of "snacks" like bagels, cookies and the like that meet Zone macronutrient parameters. These are lab tested not to jack up insulin levels. That way you can have your "crack" on occasion. If you read his books you'll discover all sorts of recipes and snacks that meet this, IE a beer and two ounces of chicken, or a glass of wine and a one-inch cube of cheese. He says certain foods have to be treated like drugs because they have an immediate drug-like effect on your body.

The Paleo concept, if you've got your portions properly sized and your meals/snacks properly spaced out, theoretically doesn't have to be as precise because the carbs you are consuming, in the form of veggies, are a lot lower on the glycemic index and cause insulin levels to rise much more slowly.

So basically, if you eat the wrong foods, you'll produce too much insulin. If you overeat (at one sitting) of the proper foods, you'll still make too much insulin. This is why eating once or twice a day is a bad idea for most folks.

So, who's right? I don't know, so I do both. For lunch I had asparagus, a six oz hunk of salmon, and a small serving of mixed fruit. That's paleo all the way. I can't manage to eat like that four or five meals/day but I shoot for at least two. I have a protein shake (Cytogainer) that has complex carbs (Zone parameters) and I eat enough almonds to get my 30% fat. I have a couple of paleo breakfasts (eggs/fruit) but I occasionally eat Zone pancakes (made with cottage cheese for protein) Even fast food is doable on occasion. Chick Filet's grilled chicken sandwich Zones. Skip the fries(you learn pretty quick that french fries were something you USED to eat)

Yep! Taco Bell (fresca menu), Chickfila and Chipotle are my "new" favorite fast foods as you can eat fairly healthy at any of these pretty easily. I did have the fried Chickfila sandwich for dinner, but got it on wheat w/ no butter on the bun, with a side salad and light Italian dressing (no croutons) - under 600 calories even though I splurged on the fried chicken (usually do the grilled and then it's less than 500 calories, but dang that fried chicken there is soooo good jsut have to give in to temptation and treat myself sometimes).

TXRam...I actually think that's pretty important too...to treat yourself sometimes.

Paleo and Primal make it pretty darn easy, no counting needed. Perhaps that is why I prefer it, I don't have to count, or rely on portion control

Yup, like I said, gotta find the one that works for YOU - for me (I'm an engineer and overall pretty ANALytical), the counting/tracking in a spreadsheet/etc. just comes natural , so it works for me! And after a while, I have a pretty good idea what I eat in any day without entering into a spreadsheet, etc. (after tracking the stuff for a couple of years).

I'm 3 weeks into a workout program, and I have some of the same low back and knee issues. I'm doing the high protein low carb diet, and it is working really well for me.

The biggest difference in this approach compared to a low cal/low fat diet is that I'm not constantly hungry. You are encouraged to eat a significant amount of calories to avoid burnout in the workouts. It's working, and I'm convinced.

Beer is a tough one, and I can't stand the Michelob ultra or Bud 55. I've cut down my drinking to just a couple on the weekend, and I switched to Jack Daniels and diet coke.

This is a great thread. It's true that if you take in less calories than you use, you'll lose weight. But by choosing what calories you take in, you can make the process way more efficient. I've had a lot of nutrition training. A LOT. And cutting way down on carbs will drop the weight faster than anything. This is nutrition made as simply as I can... Carbs break down into glucose. Insulin brings the glucose into the cell for fuel. If your cells don't need the fuel, your liver will store it and convert excess into fat.
If your cells need fuel, and there's not enough glucose in the blood, your liver will release some. If your liver is low on storage, your body will convert your protein (muscle) into glucose. If you are using your muscles strenuously regularly (exercise) your body will convert fat into glucose instead.
So, drop them carbs! Fruits have carbs, but they also have fiber and water so you don't take in as many carbs with fruits as you do grain.
I've started increasing my fiber and protein, and decreasing carbs along with hiking and other forms of exercise. I can tell a huge difference just from January to now.

Well, 7 years ago, I was a smoker and chewed Copenhagen, drank like a fish and smoked as much weed as I could afford. Obviously I cared little about my diet, and was just under 250.

Then I started working 12 hour days in the local mill, 6 days a week. We call it the Plum Creek Crash Diet. I dropped down to 220 pretty quick. Didn't change anything really except I was too busy to eat, and trapped in a box all day where I was expected to pass random drug tests.

3 years into mill life, I had quit smoking and chewed more Copenhagen. I was also tired of [bleep] hurting, and started talking to a lot of guys who were workout junkies.

So for the last 4 years, I've worked out 3-4 days a week, cardio and resistance training. I take the weights more serious these days, and don't stick with one workout too long. Next week I'm back to pyramids for my "lower" groups and I'll be doing some serious negatives on chest and triceps... This got me down to a fairly toned 210, with a slight beer gut...

Then last summer, I did nothing but run, play out in the woods, and do the paleo diet on workdays (except my old trainer said pasta was a good addition to it,) and cheated like hell on the weekends. No trips to the gym... Which means I cut the Whey protein to nothing. I figured I got fatter, at least I moved weight around and looked heavier. I was shocked when I got back to the gym a month ago and was 196. Now that I'm back in the gym, my diet went to [bleep] again, and now I'm just treading water.




On a side note... Maybe I'm high. But with my mill job, and all the years I studied JuJitsu and shot recurves with limbs way too heavy for a guy with AC seperations. Everytime I reduce my carbs substantially, all my soft tissue injuries seem to flare up??

Another question... How does a guy figure out what his caloric intake SHOULD be? I'd say its a safe bet I'm 3000-4000 calories a day just to stay where I'm at.


So far, this topic went viral for the BP forums Lots of good info and debate so far.

BWAHAAHAHAHHAHAAHHA!!!! Did I really hear that?

That's crazy talk...

I gave up beer on workdays