Your all the way up to the ostrich, and I'd still like to hear the answer to how the first living cell originated.
Couldn't tell ya. The fossil record must show how it came to be, right...sorry, probably not. Ironically, all of the ostrich-like birds in the fossil record, look like some sort of form of the ostrich though. Taxonomy is not clear cut on the ostrich though. You'll have to ask a palientologist why that is.
I still don't think it can be proven either way, designed or otherwise.
Life came into existence because God commanded the waters to bring it forth.
Why do ostriches have wings? Wouldn't arms and hands be more useful?
Guess so...and your point...besides questioning God, in whom you do believe, right?
My point is that God didn't design the ostrich. He created the laws according to which the ostrich came into existence, not to mention the basic chemistry from which it was made, but assigned the job of flora and fauna generation to the earth and the waters (i.e., nature), as clearly indicated in Genesis. Now, God is the author of nature, so in this sense he's the author also of all the flora and fauna, just not the designer of them as individual species. He is, however, the designer of the system according to which they arose and, being omniscient, has never been surprised by the course of evolution. From the moment he set the universe in motion, for example, he knew everything about each of us as we are today, including our anatomy, etc.
What? If I want to be God-like, I now gotta stop micro-managing and delegate the the pleas of my employees to mid-level managers no matter how hard or loudly the employees petition me?
Of course, the upside to being God-like, I get all the credit when there is a profitable quarter and none of the blame if a natural event like a tornado kills every last one of them and wipes out profits.
At what point did sin enter? How did sin enter? What was the result of sin? Do we need a Saviour?
Yes, we need a savior. There was indeed a first man into whom God breathed a soul, but that first man had parents who didn't themselves have souls, i.e., his parents were anatomically human (same species) but were otherwise hardly distinguishable in their conduct from smart apes. Adam's wife, however, apparently didn't have parents (at least not as contributors to her genetic make up), since she was brought into existence via cells taken from one of Adam's ribs, although I suppose it's possible the fertilized egg from which she sprang was then implanted into the uterus of a soulless human female for gestation.
Adam's sin was significant because he was the father of all ensouled humanity, as the soulless humans were out-competed in the same niches by those with souls and have thus disappeared from the earth. It is the soul which makes us Adam's offspring. We inherited our souls from him. Our genes go back much further than Adam, however. Genetically, we and Adam both descended from the first life that spawned from the dust of the earth.
What? If I want to be God-like, I now gotta stop micro-managing and delegate the the pleas of my employees to mid-level managers no matter how hard or loudly the employees petition me?
Of course, the upside to being God-like, I get all the credit when there is a profitable quarter and none of the blame if a natural event like a tornado kills every last one of them and wipes out profits.
So at one point, god decided that we�d evolved enough and picked an individual to install a soul in. Then used cells from this individual to create a female clone, installed a soul in her too, and set them up in the garden. Have I got that right?
What? If I want to be God-like, I now gotta stop micro-managing and delegate the the pleas of my employees to mid-level managers no matter how hard or loudly the employees petition me?
Of course, the upside to being God-like, I get all the credit when there is a profitable quarter and none of the blame if a natural event like a tornado kills every last one of them and wipes out profits.
Was not aware that Obama was posting on the Fire.
Dang it. I did not think it before but gotta admit, you gotta fraction of a clue.
Last edited by carbon12; 03/20/12. Reason: too generous compensation
So at one point, god decided that we�d evolved enough and picked an individual to install a soul in. Then used cells from this individual to create a female clone, installed a soul in her too, and set them up in the garden. Have I got that right?
Hmm, interesting take on it. About how long ago do you suppose this happened? Are the soulless humans where Cain and Abel got their wives? Do the soulless account for the sons of man, the giants in those days, and the inhabitants of Nod as well?
What? If I want to be God-like, I now gotta stop micro-managing and delegate the the pleas of my employees to mid-level managers no matter how hard or loudly the employees petition me?
Of course, the upside to being God-like, I get all the credit when there is a profitable quarter and none of the blame if a natural event like a tornado kills every last one of them and wipes out profits.
Was not aware that Obama was posting on the Fire.
Dang it. I did not think it before but gotta admit, you gotta fraction of a clue.
Yeah, I know. Maybe you can help me out on how goo was formed and the first cell and all.
Hmm, interesting take on it. About how long ago do you suppose this happened? Are the soulless humans where Cain and Abel got their wives? Do the soulless account for the sons of man, the giants in those days, and the inhabitants of Nod as well?
Those are all interesting speculations.
As to when God breathed a soul into Adam, I would think it would be just before the time that anatomically modern humans (who existed for hundreds of thousands of years previously) suddenly developed advanced culture, religion, art, language, abstract thought, etc., which I believe was about 50,000 years ago, based on the sudden appearance at that time of archeological artifacts and accoutrements associated with same.
I have a biology (and science) background, and I can prove evolution exists. I can do it easily, and in a way that cannot be disputed. I can talk about Darwin's Finches, Gypsy Moths, Galapagos Tortoises, Fruit Flys, Potato Bugs, Gregor Mendel's Peas..., ..., ... The best, easiest argument I came up with is germs. Yes, germs. They are becoming more virulent and antibiotic resistant every day. That's evolution. By it's very definition, Evolution is the mechanism. Start with a population of organisms. Within a population, there is variation in traits among organisms. Now, the environment has to change. Stress has to be introduced. Some organisms in the population will be better suited to deal with this stress. They will do better. Get more food. Make more babies. Avoid predators... Eventually, over many generations, the favorable traits will be dominant in the population. That's evolution.
You have a strain of bacteria. Say, Staph aureus. It lives on our skin and usually doesn't bother us. Well, it also kills us. Jim Henson, the guy who created the Muppets died of a paper cut. Staph aureus got him. A particularly virulent strain. Hospitals are full of it. There are strains that are Streptomycin resistant. Soon, there will be strains that are Vancomycin resistant and a lot of people are going to die.
Bacteria on you probably number in the millions. They reproduce quickly and have lots of offspring. The perfect formula for evolution. You get sick, take antibiotics and get better. It doesn't kill all the bacteria. Some survive and reproduce. It won't kill their progeny either! Antibiotic resistance will become a trait of that strain. Eventually, unfortunately, a particularly nasty strain will follow this model and we have a killer. Germs evolve faster than we can find their weakness and develop antibiotics to treat them.
Now THIS is a happy thought! There was a pandemic lady on Doomsday Preppers this last episode. My FIL who is a retired medical professional sat there squirming while watching it. He made it clear that nothing scares him more.
I think I'll share your post with him!
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
What? If I want to be God-like, I now gotta stop micro-managing and delegate the the pleas of my employees to mid-level managers no matter how hard or loudly the employees petition me?
Of course, the upside to being God-like, I get all the credit when there is a profitable quarter and none of the blame if a natural event like a tornado kills every last one of them and wipes out profits.
Was not aware that Obama was posting on the Fire.
Dang it. I did not think it before but gotta admit, you gotta fraction of a clue.
Yeah, I know. Maybe you can help me out on how goo was formed and the first cell and all.
Can't help you there. What you are asking me to do is above my pay grade. Besides, the hairnet they make me wear at work at the WH makes me stupid.
Last edited by carbon12; 03/20/12. Reason: work location
Hmm, interesting take on it. About how long ago do you suppose this happened? Are the soulless humans where Cain and Abel got their wives? Do the soulless account for the sons of man, the giants in those days, and the inhabitants of Nod as well?
Those are all interesting speculations.
As to when God breathed a soul into Adam, I would think it would be just before the time that anatomically modern humans (who existed for hundreds of thousands of years previously) suddenly developed advanced culture, religion, art, language, abstract thought, etc., which I believe was about 50,000 years ago, based on the sudden appearance at that time of archeological artifacts and accoutrements associated with same.
Yes, we need a savior. There was indeed a first man into whom God breathed a soul, but that first man had parents who didn't themselves have souls, i.e., his parents were anatomically human (same species) but were otherwise hardly distinguishable in their conduct from smart apes. Adam's wife, however, apparently didn't have parents (at least not as contributors to her genetic make up), since she was brought into existence via cells taken from one of Adam's ribs, although I suppose it's possible the fertilized egg from which she sprang was then implanted into the uterus of a soulless human female for gestation.
Adam's sin was significant because he was the father of all ensouled humanity, as the soulless humans were out-competed in the same niches by those with souls and have thus disappeared from the earth. It is the soul which makes us Adam's offspring. We inherited our souls from him. Our genes go back much further than Adam, however. Genetically, we and Adam both descended from the first life that spawned from the dust of the earth.
You missed one of the questions. What was the result of sin?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
You missed one of the questions. What was the result of sin?
The fall. When man was a mere beast, with no ability to choose good or evil, he had no sin. After Adam was ensouled, he became capable of sin, but had free will with regard to it. Having never before sinned, he was innocent. Adam chose sin by disobeying God, lost his innocence, and that sin nature was inherited by all his offspring, thus necessitating a savior for the redemption of Adam's offspring (Man cannot live in eternity with God unless in a state of grace, thus the need for redemption). Of course God knew Adam would choose sin, but that doesn't negate the fact that he had free will in sin's regard. He was free to choose to remain innocent, but didn't. We, being Adam's offspring, share this tendency towards sin.
I have a biology (and science) background, and I can prove evolution exists. I can do it easily, and in a way that cannot be disputed. I can talk about Darwin's Finches, Gypsy Moths, Galapagos Tortoises, Fruit Flys, Potato Bugs, Gregor Mendel's Peas..., ..., ... The best, easiest argument I came up with is germs. Yes, germs. They are becoming more virulent and antibiotic resistant every day. That's evolution. By it's very definition, Evolution is the mechanism. Start with a population of organisms. Within a population, there is variation in traits among organisms. Now, the environment has to change. Stress has to be introduced. Some organisms in the population will be better suited to deal with this stress. They will do better. Get more food. Make more babies. Avoid predators... Eventually, over many generations, the favorable traits will be dominant in the population. That's evolution.
You have a strain of bacteria. Say, Staph aureus. It lives on our skin and usually doesn't bother us. Well, it also kills us. Jim Henson, the guy who created the Muppets died of a paper cut. Staph aureus got him. A particularly virulent strain. Hospitals are full of it. There are strains that are Streptomycin resistant. Soon, there will be strains that are Vancomycin resistant and a lot of people are going to die.
Bacteria on you probably number in the millions. They reproduce quickly and have lots of offspring. The perfect formula for evolution. You get sick, take antibiotics and get better. It doesn't kill all the bacteria. Some survive and reproduce. It won't kill their progeny either! Antibiotic resistance will become a trait of that strain. Eventually, unfortunately, a particularly nasty strain will follow this model and we have a killer. Germs evolve faster than we can find their weakness and develop antibiotics to treat them.
They'll destroy your argument by asking why those germs haven't already evolved into people.
Right. Just to take the other side here, which is always fun, a Creationist would say that Rob just described adaption, not evolution.
Right. Just to take the other side here, which is always fun, a Creationist would say that Rob just described adaption, not evolution.
Adaptation is the process by which evolution takes place. They are the baby steps towards speciation. As adaptations accumulate within an isolated strain of a species, the difference eventually becomes sufficiently great to justify classification as a different subspecies. That's speciation by evolution. Given a longer period of adaptation in isolation and the species will accumulate enough differences to justify a different genus classification, then family, order, etc. It's the gradual accumulation of alterations due to adaptation that drives the process of speciation by evolution.
For example, the genus alligator contains two subspecies, 1) the American and 2) the Chinese. The genus falls under the family alligatoridae, which contains both subspecies of alligator, plus caimans. All of them belong to the order crocodilia, including all the above, plus crocodiles and several other similar species. As you go up the ladder you find greater and greater diversity, and more distance from one another on the evolutionary tree.
