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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
Again, what I said to Dink about the original post impacts what you carry as well. You and Dink and some of the others here are LEO's. Assuming Dink's query wasn't just for LE, a guy who is nervous about a locale and carrying despite restrictions, is likely to carry something much smaller and less effective than an LEO who has no worries about being made. So there is a reason beyond ignorance, that a lot of citizens carry mouseguns instead of serious weaponry. My own state was one of the last to enact a CCW law. The RINO governor we formerly had, pledged to sign a bill and then didn't, two or three times during his two terms of office. Then Sebelius' veto was overridden when she took office. Point-being, the RINO kept saying we had a perfectly good right to open carry, so we didn't need concealed. The Open-Carry thing was great except for the part where you got arrested by some Town Clown who didn't know the law and then got to spend the weekend in the Calabozo. The trouble is, the state legislature invalidated the open carry law in order to make provisions for keeping your gun out of sight in the concealed law. Many states did the same thing. So it is incumbent upon the CCW holder to keep his piece hidden.
What is needed is nationwide recognition of the 2nd Amendment and laws such as RJM mentions where property rights clash with the aforementioned.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,790 Likes: 23
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,790 Likes: 23 |
A little background info before I get to my questions.
A few nights before the movie theatre shooting my squad was sitting around talking about off duty carry guns. I admitted that since its been so hot here that I have caught myself just carrying my Ruger LCP or my Smith 642 and I had never done that before. My squad all fess up that they too had only been carrying thier Ruger LCP's because its been so damn hot. We all agreed that we are going to get caught up into something and all we will have is some pocket pistol. Several guys have not been carrying a gun off duty.
Some my squad then make plans to go to the midnight showing of the movie. Well we all know what happened. Friday night I ask who went and what they carried. Only two guys carried a gun and they were both LCP's but one did have a flashlight. We all said that we should sell those LCP's so we are not tempted to carry them anymore (we all have several good carry guns).
We were sitting around talking about what we have done if we were there. One of my guys said that if he was there with his wife and kids he would have ran for the exit. He made a good point that you may been trying to shoot the bad guy from 25-35 yards depending on how big the theatre is and to make those shots under fire would be very hard. Also the shooter may not have given up if you shot at him and sprayed you and your family with a AR/shotgun.
This got to thinking. I don't know if I would have shot it out with him with my family there. If he would have been between us and exit it would have been on but if I could have slipped out a door I might have. As another squad member said "[bleep] them. They should have brought thier own guns".
I probaly would have been sitting there with my Glock 27, spare mag and a surefire flashlight. To make good shots at distance would have been difficult.
So what gun/gear would you have had? What would have done? I know everyone would have sniped him given a chance but would have picked a gunfight with someone you could have gotten away from?
Dink As for guns that I've ever carried on a regular basis, I would say that the best able to deal with this sort of situation would have been my full sized, all steel, 1911 (pre-Series 70 Colt Government Model). Accurate shots at the distances you suggest wouldn't be a problem with that, assuming I could see the front sight. Probably should have a night sight installed, at least up front.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 1 |
I would have had a Glock 30 and a spare magazine with a SureFire LX2 Lumamax flashlight. I may have had a recently acquired Sig P938 with no spare mags to keep or pass along to someone else, because it is really easy to carry and I have been carrying it off and on as a backup since I got it. We have been running daytime highs in the mid 90's, and few houses have air conditioning, but I have not changed what I carry.
My plan is to act within my knowledge, training and experience, and hope my brain and body don't choke. That's all I'll say on an open forum. My wife already knows what to do.
The law here is pretty liberal in that people who meet the requirements for a CCW permit, except for the training requirement, can carry concealed without a permit, and I believe that more people are carrying now, and that more will be carrying, at least for a while, after this incident. That creates its own set of potential good and bad complications in a scenario of the type described in the OP, but oh well.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,790 Likes: 23
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,790 Likes: 23 |
The movie shooting reminded me why i have Night Sights on all my carry pistols. I'm starting to think the same thing. My Kahr doesn't have one, and that's mainly what I carry. Just need a front night sight, IMO, as that's most likely all you will be able to manage (i.e., getting that on COM) when the SHTF.
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
I would have had a Glock 30 and a spare magazine with a SureFire LX2 Lumamax flashlight. I may have had a recently acquired Sig P938 with no spare mags to keep or pass along to someone else, because it is really easy to carry and I have been carrying it off and on as a backup since I got it. We have been running daytime highs in the mid 90's, and few houses have air conditioning, but I have not changed what I carry.
My plan is to act within my knowledge, training and experience, and hope my brain and body don't choke. That's all I'll say on an open forum. My wife already knows what to do.
The law here is pretty liberal in that people who meet the requirements for a CCW permit, except for the training requirement, can carry concealed without a permit, and I believe that more people are carrying now, and that more will be carrying, at least for a while, after this incident. That creates its own set of potential good and bad complications in a scenario of the type described in the OP, but oh well.
The Lumamax looks like a good choice but if I was going with a Surefire, which I probably wouldn't be, I'd have the Fury. I've got three or four Surefires, but they are all retired from active duty. I'd likely have my Chinese 380 lumen light that's about the same size as the Lumamax or one of my Rocky 200 Lumen lights that have never failed me and can be had from Sam's Club for about $30 for two of them. My Chinese light cost me $100 and had four rechargeable batteries and the charger with it.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 1 |
I don't like having to click through 3 cycles to get full power, which is the downside to the Fury. It would be great for people who just want a small, powerful flashlight. Anyway, less than 200 lumens have saved my butt before. I think SureFire is about to introduce a 500 lumen LX2, which I will have to take a look at.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 991
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 991 |
My Redline is always with me. The Nebo SE Redline #5615 features many improvements over the first generation Nebo Redline.
1.) It now features 250 lumens, which is only 30 lumens more than the first generation Redline, but it makes a big difference!
2.) Primary and secondary lighting modes. Push the button down once to activate the primary lighting mode (250 lumens). Hold down the on/off button for three seconds to activate the secondary lighting mode (125 lumens, 25 lumens, S.O.S and strobe), then use the soft touch to toggle through the functions.
3.) Low battery warning. When battery life drops to 20% the red ring will glow to indicate a low battery level
4.) Thicker body. At 1.5" in width the SE Redline has a slightly thicker body, which makes the flashlight easier to hold in your hand.
5.) Steel belt clip.
In addition to these upgrades the Nebo SE Redline also features all the standard features of the first generation model. These include, glow-in-the-dark power button, magnetic base for hands-free lighting, aggressive self defense head, heat-sink bezel distributes heat during extended periods of use, 4x light adjusts from flood to spotlight, bulb rated for 110,000 hours of use, convex lens distributes light evenly without dull or dark spots.
The Nebo SE Redline requires three AAA batteries (included). Runtime varies based on the function being used.
100% - 4 hours of continuous runtime
50% - 8 hours of continuous runtime
10% - 15 hours of continuous runtime
S.O.S - 72 hours of continuous runtime
Strobe - 72 hours of continuous runtime
![[Linked Image]](http://www.shrewbows.com/nebo_flashlight/nebo_1.jpg)
"We live in the present, we dream of the future, but we learn eternal truths from the past"
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
I don't like having to click through 3 cycles to get full power, which is the downside to the Fury. It would be great for people who just want a small, powerful flashlight. Anyway, less than 200 lumens have saved my butt before. I think SureFire is about to introduce a 500 lumen LX2, which I will have to take a look at. I think the last light I bought was a 100 lumen lamp, which in and of itself is no big deal, although it is more powerful than any Surefire I own. The thing is, it is a bit shorter than an Executive Elite and runs on 1 AA battery. That's impressive to me, since most good flashlights take exotic batteries. It wasn't cheap, exactly, at $40-50, IIRC, but it is very compact and takes a very easily obtained power source.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,154
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,154 |
I don't carry where it's posted against; however, if I was able, I'd have my 1911 with a handful of rounds. I'd hope it was enough deterent; although, it's more likely I'd have tried to get to an exit with my wife.
I think it's likely, as with the alarm, when he heard shots or saw muzzle flash he would have exited the theater as quickly as possible.
Deserve's got nothing to do with it.
TripleA RV in Medford, OR SUCKS
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500 |
I had been thinking through scenarios like this one long before this shooting occured. My wife will not carry if I am packing so she is to get down under cover and I would, if possible, move to the side of the building somewhat so any return fire would not be directed at her or close to her. From there, try to get a good shot on the perp with my Lazer sighted Colt Delta Elite in 10mm. Carry load is a warm one driving 180gr Gold Dots at a chrono'ed 1375 yet checked for safety by the custom gunsmith who installed the Storm Lake Barrel in it for me.
Having stood toe to toe with pissed off elephants, ears out and screaming at me from mere feet away, backed up a client on wounded Cape Buff, as well as known to be dangerous Lion already - not to mention Brown Bears and other apex predators - and shot well each time under those scnearios I would like to THINK that I could handle myself and my shooting OK in a crisis like that. One never knows until the moment arrives, but I really beleive in my heart of hearts that I could have offed this turd before he hammered so many folks.
One of the benefits of being very sick with PKD and knowing that I don't have a real long time left on this rock anyway is, I think, maybe a little more willingness to be the guy to take the fight to the bad guy. Not nearly as much to lose as all of you healthy folks with good kidneys, no or low amounts of permanent chronic pain, and no tumores in your craniums. Again, one never knows until the moment arrives but I have a sense that I could return fire with some good effect.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,008
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,008 |
It is usually in the high 90s to 100 degrees here and I still carry a full size 1911 everyday. Being in Florida we can carry in a theater. One of our local theaters is in a mall that has signs posted that say you can not have a weapon of any kind in the mall whether licensed or not. All that means is they can ask you to leave and issue you a tresspass warning if you are legally carrying concealed. I will take that chance. If I was at the movie at least my wife would be there and possibly my children too. My first priority would be to keep them safe at all cost. Depending on the shooters location and ours it may mean just getting them out of the theater or it may mean I need to move away from them and draw his fire so they could escape. In any event I would be armed and hopefully would be able to do something other than being a victim.
Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 915
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2007
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It is not illegal to carry there in Colorado. There is no law aginst it, but if they see it they can ask you to leave. If you don't leave you can be arrested for trespass. Every state can be different though and that is the way it works in Colorado. Prohibited places include Federal buildings, courthouses, schools, places with metal detectors at entrances and a few more. Many places that are "supposed" to have policies against CCW guns don't have signs posted where people can easily see them or where I have never seen them despite looking, including this theater chain. I would have been operating under the "they can ask me to leave" CONOPS. Would probably have only been carrying Kahr MK40 .40 cal and 1 extra mag in this summer heat. It is not bad at 25 yards and I would probably be shooting with the gun wedged between 2 seats so a head shot would be high probability. I am assuming the smoke or tear gas would not spread instantly.
Osama and Obama both have friends who bombed the Pentagon.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 54,284 |
It is not illegal to carry there in Colorado. There is no law aginst it, but if they see it they can ask you to leave. If you don't leave you can be arrested for trespass. Every state can be different though and that is the way it works in Colorado. Prohibited places include Federal buildings, courthouses, schools, places with metal detectors at entrances and a few more. Many places that are "supposed" to have policies against CCW guns don't have signs posted where people can easily see them or where I have never seen them despite looking, including this theater chain. I would have been operating under the "they can ask me to leave" CONOPS. Would probably have only been carrying Kahr MK40 .40 cal and 1 extra mag in this summer heat. It is not bad at 25 yards and I would probably be shooting with the gun wedged between 2 seats so a head shot would be high probability. I am assuming the smoke or tear gas would not spread instantly. They got to see you carrying it to ask you to leave for carrying it and in many cases, seeing it can lead to a "brandishing" charge with concurrent loss of CCW "privileges". Surprised their weren't some CCW people in the crowd.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,906 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,906 Likes: 1 |
I would do what I always do, carry my 45 Commander.
I'd rather have a 45 & not need it than to need it & not have it.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 52,680
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 52,680 |
Some very good points and observations here. Thanks gentlemen.
Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,718 |
THIS: WellI would have tried sniping him once I got the family under cover. Stand up gunfight against a long arm, I think not. If you find yourself in a fair gunfight, your tactics suck.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,948
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,948 |
I would have been carrying a Glock 36 in a Cozy Partner IWB holster , extra mag ,Fenix light and a Bench-made folder. This is my summertime carry that can be concealed with cargo shorts and a T-shirt.
Who's positive that there was not an armed citizen in that theater. If so,the person may have not had the opportunity or mind set.
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Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
The movie shooting reminded me why i have Night Sights on all my carry pistols. I'm starting to think the same thing. My Kahr doesn't have one, and that's mainly what I carry. Just need a front night sight, IMO, as that's most likely all you will be able to manage (i.e., getting that on COM) when the SHTF. I have night sights on my Kahr P9, well worth having
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2003
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If you find yourself in a fair gunfight, your tactics suck.
I submit that bad things can happen where one only hopes that great tactics will get one to the "fair fight" stage. Life cannot be lived or enjoyed behind 360 degree cover.
Last edited by Cheyenne; 07/28/12. Reason: add stuff
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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