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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,158 Likes: 3
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 96,158 Likes: 3 |
If someone puts a muzzle brake on any rifle,that tells me they have to MUCH GUN!
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Ben yes the RUM is the fastest....recoils too much for me. shooting nearly identical remington 700s chambered in .300 win and .300 wby, the weatherby beat me up off the bench, and the winnie seemed tame in comparison. the only real difference in rifles was that his factory m700 .300 wby had a slightly heavier scope, and my custom barreled m700 winnie had a slightly heavier contour barrel. we were both shooting 180s loaded to max velocities from the same manual. John yes. The 300 Weatherby (depending on powder choice)operates with charges in the mid-80's and the 300 Win in the mid to high 70's......you go up in powder charges and you get a corresponding increase in recoil and blast from the larger case. This is nitpicking but at some level you reach the tipping point in recoil and blast that makes one "tolerable" and the larger cartridge a bit over the top. I think one reason the 300WSM has become so popular is that (like the 300H&H),you get within 75-100 fps of the Winchester and 150-200 fps of the Weatherby,but with lighter powder charges,which means less recoil and blast,so I agree with Dober and if on the market for a 300 Magnum today(considering my age I'd grab the WSM or a H&H and run with it.A 180 gr bullet at 3000 fps is a formidable game getter. Years past for me the 300 Weatherby was the limit in a 300 magnum and if I were going to tolerate more recoil than that I wanted more bullet weight and diameter rather than more velocity. Balancing all this stuff with manageable recoil and rifle weight is why I became a 7 mag fan.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,691
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,691 |
All this is interesting! I have been through the paces you guys are marching to some years ago. I liked .300 (and .338) magnums from both Win. and Roy. Loved M70s in H&H.
I just turned 75 and no longer use a magnum of any diameter - except for an inherited 7 mag. that I keep because of sentiment, and it is on thin ice. .30-06, .308, and even .30-30 are my cartridges of choice these days for .30 bores, and the first two work even at long range. They kill stuff dead "close or far".
My last M70 .300 H&H was in my possession about 30 minutes. Bought it at a good price, took it down the street about two miles and turned a profit of $400 plus a new 3-9 Leupold.
I am NOT making fun of you. As said, "Been there, done that," and it was fun! Would I do it again? Yes, as surely as the sun came up this morning. jack
"Do not blame Caesar, blame the people...who have...rejoiced in their loss of freedom....Blame the people who hail him when he speaks of the 'new, wonderful, good, society'...to mean ,..living fatly at the expense of the industrious." Cicero
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Actually JorgeI I feel that the important part of what you're asking is the "you define". Point being, what makes these rounds better is largely an individual thing and isn't a one size fits all. Personally for me of the big 30's the one that's more better (4 me) is the WSM cause I can build it in a lightish package. Yet it's still has just enough weight to it so I can shoot it a ton and feel on top of my game with it and yet it's light enough for this mid life fella (53) to carry on the hunts that are toughest for me. Just a thunk or two Dober That is a very, very well-reasoned personal definition of defining "better" and if I were looking to go the light package route that would certainly be my choice. Bob also makes a good argument regarding the 300 Win Mag in that if most are made on long actions, why bother and not just get an H&H or a Weatherby unless of course, operating costs is an issue. I think the best of the WSM family is the 270 as it does give you a substantial edge over the 270 whereas the 300 WSM does not over the bigger 300s. I can get 3250 out of my Weatherby and 180gr bullets with about 80 grs of RL 22powder as I stated, with the 300 Win Mag 76gr H4831 gives me about 3100 and the H&H gets me to just over 3K with 71gr of RL22. I have no idea what the RUM gets as I have a phobia with anything with the name "Remington" on it but the increase over the 300 Weatherby yet with even more powder. One can also define "better" as case life, recoil and of course "killing power" and the last I really don't think anybody can really define that. I will tell you that in my view the difference in killing efficacy betwixt them and the 06 is significant and I don't care what the 06' cultists say! . And again I'll say that from a practicality POV, the Win Mag and WSM are the logical choices.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
I am NOT making fun of you. As said, "Been there, done that," and it was fun! Would I do it again? Yes, as surely as the sun came up this morning. jack
JT/jorg: You can tell the guys who have been around a lot of 300 mags and this all takes time and effort to be able to wade through so much excruciating minutia and have it all make sense..LOL! I guess we have all had fun doing this or none of us would have bothered.....I especially like the "shooting game" part!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472 |
The RUM is better because you don't have to deal with Weatherby anything, the case is a modern beltless design, the accuracy potential is better in my limited experience, gets 100fps+ more velocity,the rum is cheaper to shoot if your limited to factory ammo, and ammo/brass are easier for me to source locally. The rum does recoil pretty good, but if you can shoot a Bee well a RUM will be no problem. I recently had Eddie Fosnaugh put a brake on my RUM for something to play with and it now kicks about like a .270. My perception of the noise is its about the same as the 7mm Weatherby I was also shooting that day.
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,153 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,153 Likes: 2 |
To me, the Damara is about as light as I'd want to go with a .300 mag. The WSM's sound good, but how light is light? And, from what I hear, feeding can be a problem with some of them.
I've used the .300 Wby. and don't think I'd want a harder kicking .300 than that the Bee. I do like my .300 Win Mag. With the turret, accuracy is king for long range shots. The real fast ones may buck the wind a little better, but with good bullets/high B.C's, a lot can be accomplished in the 3,000+ fps range.
IMHO,
DF
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
The RUM is better because you don't have to deal with Weatherby anything, the case is a modern beltless design, the accuracy potential is better in my limited experience, gets 100fps+ more velocity,the rum is cheaper to shoot if your limited to factory ammo, and ammo/brass are easier for me to source locally. The rum does recoil pretty good, but if you can shoot a Bee well a RUM will be no problem. I recently had Eddie Fosnaugh put a brake on my RUM for something to play with and it now kicks about like a .270. My perception of the noise is its about the same as the 7mm Weatherby I was also shooting that day. "modern beltless design"? I think you better check into the who came first chicken or the egg theory. 100 fps? and how much more powder? Factory ammo? no doubt the Weatherby's are more expensice. Recoil's not an issue with me so that's a wash. As to accuracy potential, well, that cn be quantified but again how much better do you need that MOA or in my case half MOA?
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472 |
The RUM is better because you don't have to deal with Weatherby anything, the case is a modern beltless design, the accuracy potential is better in my limited experience, gets 100fps+ more velocity,the rum is cheaper to shoot if your limited to factory ammo, and ammo/brass are easier for me to source locally. The rum does recoil pretty good, but if you can shoot a Bee well a RUM will be no problem. I recently had Eddie Fosnaugh put a brake on my RUM for something to play with and it now kicks about like a .270. My perception of the noise is its about the same as the 7mm Weatherby I was also shooting that day. "modern beltless design"? I think you better check into the who came first chicken or the egg theory. 100 fps? and how much more powder? Factory ammo? no doubt the Weatherby's are more expensice. Recoil's not an issue with me so that's a wash. As to accuracy potential, well, that cn be quantified but again how much better do you need that MOA or in my case half MOA? If your using powder burnt to justify any magnum your barking up the wrong tree. Factory ammo for a Weatherby is a mail order proposition for me. I can get RUM at Dunham's, Gander Mountain, etc. BTW the RUM case is a modern beltless design. You can say its based on the 404 Jeffery, but its really not identical in the way a 300 Weatherby is based on 300 H&H. Some people will say that belts are no big deal, but it sure is nice not having that ring of stretched brass just forward of the belt that often happens with factory chambered rifles.
Last edited by BWalker; 10/10/12.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,161 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,161 Likes: 13 |
Dirtfarmer,
The first .300 Winchester Magnum I shot was a NULA Model 28 weighing right around 7 pounds with scope. It shot VERY accurately and didn't kick too much at all, even with 200-grain Partitions at 2900+ fps.
But the NULA stock fit me very well, and I was younger then....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,471 |
I really like the RUM. I have owned several 300 RUMS and all were more accurate than any Win or Bee that I have owned/shot. Maybe it has been luck of the draw or maybe the case is more accurate.
I think the key to shooting any 300 mag is you have to shoot it. You can not take it to the range and shoot it 3 times before season and be used to it. It takes trigger time to get used to the recoil and blast. Once you are used to the recoil and blast though nothing kills non-dangerous game like a fast 30 caliber in my opinion.
Dink
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 8,736
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 8,736 |
I can't believe this thread keeps going on and on and on....
According to one rule-of-thumb about internal ballistics (proven both theoretically and empirically) here's about a 2% difference in potential muzzle velocity between the .300 Winchester and Weatherby. That's about 65 fps with typical 180-grain handloads. Wow! 76grs of RL-22 gets me to 3085-3100 in my 26" Sako 300 Winchester. 80gr of the same gets me right at 3250 in my 300 Weatherby. While I prefer the Weatherby, the Win Mag is the more logical choice. Not trying to be a smart a$$ jorge, but where is the logic? 40.78 fps/grn, 92 rds per/pnd, with the Win 3100, 40.625 fps/grn, 87rds per/pnd, with the Bee 3250. 150-185fps gain for 5 rounds? Not much to make any difference to me. Thanks.
Last edited by calikooknic; 10/10/12.
Sean
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
Not trying to be a smart a$$ jorge, but where is the logic? 40.78 fps/grn, 92 rds per/pnd, with the Win 3100, 40.625 fps/grn, 87rds per/pnd, with the Bee 3250. 150-185fps gain for 5 rounds? Not much to make any difference to me. Thanks. calikook - from a handloading pt/view only. Now figure in the cost of brass. The bee's cost won't settle the national debt but the difference is noticeable/significant.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
The ONLY point I was trying to make was that beltless cases came BEFORE belted and besides belts have abslolutely zero effect on the discussion at least to me they are a completely transparent issue when it comes to cartridge performance or reloading. The bottom line is aside from the cost of brass and the added powder required to get you that extra 100 FPS, there is really no difference in the hunting fields.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,597 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,597 Likes: 11 |
Yes, better is very simple. Weatherby designed the 300 Wby in 1944, long before the Winchester magnum in 1963. It is true that he was improving the H&H chambering, but still long before the 300 Win. mag. The 300 Ultra-Mag still doesn't equal the 30-378, close enough to call, but still way overbore. You have a case of diminishing returns here, the 300 Weatherby does sit in the best spot in the 300 line up because anything less is not enough of too much, and anything more is too much of not enough...
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 Likes: 1 |
Works for me Shrapnel! Oh and tell your buddy Mike I love my Webleys!
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,153 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,153 Likes: 2 |
Dirtfarmer,
The first .300 Winchester Magnum I shot was a NULA Model 28 weighing right around 7 pounds with scope. It shot VERY accurately and didn't kick too much at all, even with 200-grain Partitions at 2900+ fps.
But the NULA stock fit me very well, and I was younger then.... The Damara is 6.9# without scope, so it's a bit heavier than the NULA 28. I've never handled a NULA, but am intrigued by what I hear and read about them. Melvin Forbes seems to have perfected the light rifle with his stiff stock/full length bedding, vs. the conventional stiff action/free floated barrel concept. And, I fully appreciate your statement, "...and I was younger then..." DF
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,065
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,065 |
You have a case of diminishing returns here, the 300 Weatherby does sit in the best spot in the 300 line up because anything less is not enough of too much, and anything more is too much of not enough... Well said...though have noted my threshold denoting "too much" continues to recede with time...
Defend the Constitution
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,153 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,153 Likes: 2 |
...the 300 Weatherby does sit in the best spot in the 300 line up because anything less is not enough of too much, and anything more is too much of not enough... Never heard it put quite like that. Had to read that one several times... DF
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 8,736
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 8,736 |
As I said on page 10 or 11, I got a hell of a deal on some brass. But that doesn't make or break any decision on caliber. Do people really wear out thier brass that fast?
Always funny that guys will put a $2000.00 set of heads on a hobby race car, spend $200.00 to play golf, but whine about $2.00 worth of brass.
JMO, not looking for a fight here. Got to go to work, everybody have a great day.
Sean
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