Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Arms for downed pilots question?

Engine mech...

Flightline we don't have "engine" mechs those guys work at MALS.

Is he still in?

Yep he did work flightline...

Negative.

Back to the OPs question, I started out with a 4" M-15 S&W .38. After Desert Storm we were issued M-9 Berettas. We were briefed we were evaders until captured. If captured and we escaped the rule is if we killed anyone, civilian or military, we could be tried for murder. The smart thing is do like Scott O'Grady and don't get caught or as in his evasion get killed. The Serbs didn't try to capture him. They just shot the hell out of every place they thought he might be.

is he still working in Aviation?

The VAQ community I flew in for 20 years is a very integrated team between USMC and USN as there are not many of us. Despite your assertion I found no difference in mindset between the Marine Aviator/Naval Flight Officers and their USN counterparts. PLC/TBS did not make a wit of difference in their thoughts on this subject nor how they fought the jet. In fact, the most aggressive guy I know just retired as an 0-6 and he was a prior enlisted USAF PJ with over 50 jumps including some damn hairy rescues/recoveries in the north sea. Heck of a good guy too. He, another USN 0-6 and a Marine Prowler Aviator and I had dinner last month and discussed some of this same topic and we all believe it comes down to the man. We all went through flight school the FRS and were FRS instructors together so I think we have a pretty good grasp on the topic with our combined 90 years of service.



I believe your are mis-remembering. If you give up your ID card and surrender then kill someone during your escape you're in trouble (assuming you get caught again!) Until you give up the ID card you are still a fighting man.

On the topic in general, the training we received from 86-93 was very substandard, as were the issue weapons. I qualed during AOCS with a long barreled .38 on the range at Pensacola with instruction by our USMC drill instructor but I suspect we fired less than 50 rounds each. Desert Storm we opened up cruise box from NWC Crane and found 5 shot S&W .38's still sealed in envelopes in cosomline dated 1975. Wish I had one now! Our CAG, Fox Fallon, who flew RA5C's and A-6's in VN said carry what you want so I carried my Argie Hi-Power.

Post ODS Naval Air caught up a bit. The M9 was too big to be carried in the SV-2 vest so they went with the M-11, the Sig P228, and they actually coughed up some $ for yearly range time but still very static. I found the M11 to be a great compact reliable pistol (albeit still a 9mm!). By the time the mid 90's rolled around the pistol qual had been updated a lot and we shot at the indoor range and were presented with many more tactical scenarios including multiple ranges, weak side shooting, reload drills with both and single arm. I think given the limitations it was pretty good training.

As far as actually using the pistol on a downed situation (other than shooting my pilot and taking his water ) it's a low % situation. It has been used successfully a couple times that I know of in SEA. Once was an Aviator who shot a farmer coming at him in a rice paddy with a pitchfork. The NVA were right behind the farmer but he shot him to keep from being stabbed and then threw the pistol away as there was no chance of escape. The other was an RA-5C RSO who got bagged and landed on the beach and was captured. The helo was there out of small arms range and he was being marched down the beach by 2 NVA troops. A SPAD rolled in and the NVA turned to shoot at it, the RSO pulled a derringer out from inside his flight suit and popped them in the back of the head and hit the water and was picked up. That was given to us as an example of having given up his ID and regular sidearm as a case where he could have been tried for murder. That being said, I'm sure it didn't bother him a bit and he was happy to be on the helo and now ineligble to go back over the beach.

Before you try and give me any more of that sailor/Marine pablum, I went through Parris Island in 73 so S/F. My last job before I retired was training ALL Navy and Marine Officer and Enlisted(after their stint at MATSG) folks going through their initial flight Training/Air Crew School in Pensacola, I had Navy and Marine Zeros and Es all ranks up to 0-5s working for me as instructors and your blanket statement that ALL Marines would rather die than give up after being shot down, aside from being total nonsense and contrary to doctrine is patently bullshit, clearly shown by the POW list I posted demonstrating a few Marines were made POWs after being shot down. Your initial comment remain an affront to all of us who flew/fly in harm's way.

The Germans did things right in the old days. They issued their pilots Drillings. Gen Adolf Galland showed me his set (along with his Merkels that were "liberated" after the war, and later returned to him many years later).


M30 Luftwaffe Drilling[1]
Type Combination rifle/shotgun
Place of origin Nazi Germany
Service history
Wars World War II
Production history
Manufacturer Sauer & Sohn
Produced 1941-1942
Number built 2,456
Specifications
Weight 7.5 pounds
Length 42"
Barrel length 25.625"
Cartridge 9.3x74mmR, 12 Gauge[2]
Barrels 3
Action Blitz lock system
Feed system Manually loaded
Sights Fixed
The M30 Luftwaffe drilling ("triple") was a survival weapon issued to Luftwaffe pilots during World War II. It was intended to be used in the event that a pilot was shot down, for defense and for hunting game to stay alive until rescue.
For maximum versatility the M30 featured two 12 gauge shotgun barrels, and a 9.3x74mmR rifle barrel. They were manufactured by the German firm JP Sauer.

I remember it the way Pugs does. You're a combatant unless captured, and are still covered by Geneva Convention rule - after capture and escape your status changes and makes crimes "criminal," so to speak. That distinction made little difference to the North Vietnamese, however.

We USAF flyers at that time qualified with revolvers - mine was a four-inch M15 using wadcutters. In country we were issued 130 gr FMC 38 Special and a 2-1/2-inch barrel and told to load only five rounds... We also qualified with the M16 - you couldn't carry them in F4s or B-52s, so I suspect it was just a block to fill in some paperwork. (I do recall one FAC driver who did carry an M16, but couldn't use it well from that platform, and traded a pair aviator sunglasses for a Thompson. I thought it was pointless, but we all make our own choices.)

I gave some thought to carrying a 1911 while in the cockpit in case I had to walk home, but finally decided that if there were a 45-cal bullet hole in some NV type, I didn't want to be associated it it - 38/9mm was pretty common and wouldn't necessarily point back to me. I also considered smuggling in my personal Browning HP, but didn't. That was probably a good choice.

All in all, the wimpily-loaded Smith M15 was probably fine. The pitchfork-wielding NV farmers really didn't like us, and the snubbie was fine for keeping them off you, and no handgun would be useful against a squad of Ak-47 carriers anyway.

The thing to remember about firearms in that kind of environment is that if you're walking home, it's probably due to ground fire, and surface-to-air missiles, at that. So, if you're down there, you're probably inside the kill ring of the SAM. That means you need to (1) be quiet and avoid the SAM site's patrols, and (2) plan a walk out of the ring in order to get a SAR bird in. In that situation, a radio was as much comfort as a handgun - maybe more. You eat bugs and spiders and such, rather than shooting animals. You hide by day and travel by night, staying off trails, so, again, there isn't much in the way of shooting opportunities.

I believe they were only issued to pilots flying in North Africa though?

Suspect that Galland applied for a waiver through his chain of command and was approved outside Africa.

I have flew in harm's way and have served with many others that have to and none of them see it your way. Like I said I am not going to argue with you over this. If you don't like what I said then don't read my post, or read it and move along.

For most people this an imaginary scenario.

When you mentioned downed pilots I think of people in places like the Alaskan bush. Most pilots carry a large caliber handgun like a Ruger or S&W. Some favor a Marlin Guide gun. All can procure meat and protect from bears. Don't forget the heavy sleeping bag.

My uncle, Alaska Bob went down after clipping some spruce trees on take-off. He broke his shoulder and spent the night in his plane at about -20 degrees with a summer weight sleeping bag.

When I went through the system gunship aircrew training was minimal at best.We only had two days and one night of SERE training which was done locally at Eglin AFB Florida but enough to let me know I didn't care to exercise my survival skills with only a handgun in hostile territory.

The mental picture I always got was from the movie The Bridges of Toko-Ri where William Holden and Micky Rooney were in a trench trying to defend themselves with a 38 and M1 carbine.Needless to say no match for a bunch of Nork totin AK 47's,woulda been the the same bad day in SEA..

I had a free 60 and carried my personal 4" Colt Cobra, I figured out that if I was in Indian Country I would go down fighting rather than be captured.

Thank God it never got that far.

And what way is that? You've beat around the bush with it enough, so grow a pair and speak your mind. Just some of us around here with a LOT more experience than you ace, will call you out if you question our fortitude.

Exactly, that's REALISM Woody and not holding off a squad of bad guys with a Swiss Army knife.

Terry always wished there was a way to detach and use one of our mini guns if push came to shove but zero possible as these were basically gun pods on hard points.You and Rocky know well the "Indian Country" we flew in and surviving a crash was marginal at best much less dookin it out on the ground with a bunch of gomers.