Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles MV potential of 40 grain bullets out of a 223?

My .223 loads using RL-7 and 40g NBT mirror Seafire's as they are averaging 3975fps with great accuracy.

My loads were run through a RCBS Ammomaster and are the average of a 12 shot string. Cases show no pressure signs but each rifle I own in .223 has maxed out at different levels. Simple, each rifle is different.

Seafire knows his loads.........

Why is it the ignorant always have to raise their heads, when they know little of what they speak? Seafire does know his stuff and I commend him for putting himself out here for inspection.

QL suggests a pressure of 69.5K PSI.

Stiff, yes, but I don't believe that qualifies for the Wiley coyote range.

Seafire,

You've mentioned using the Hodgdon #26 manual before, which sent up a red flag with me. Any older data like that is suspect, especially since today's Reloder 7 isn't even the same powder.

I don't have a #26 Hodgdon manual, but I do have the #25 and #27. I would assume the data in #25 (1987) is what you're looking at in #26, since it lists 24.0 grains of Hercules (not Alliant) Reloder 7 pushing a 40-grain from the .223 at 3559 fps, with a pressure of 45,000 CUP. (Let�s also note that 24.0 grains is maximum with a 45-grain bullet, for 3510 fps at 45,800 CUP.)

No other Hercules Reloder-series powder is listed in the entire rifle section of the manual. There�s an excellent reason for this: It was the only Hercules rifle powder then being produced, and was still being made at the Hercules plant in the U.S.. The slower Reloder series (15, 19, 22, etc.) didn�t appear until the early 1990�s, when Alliant started importing them from Sweden.

Reloder 7 had been discontinued by then, and didn�t appear again until the mid-90�s�and wasn�t exactly the same powder, since it was now also made in Sweden. This was reflected in the #27 Hodgdon manual (1998), where appeared as Alliant Reloder 7. The lightest bullet listed is the 45-grain Speer, and the maximum load for Reloder 7 is 21.8 grains for 3375 fps, at 53,200 PSI. Both Reloder 12 and 15 are listed as exceeding that velocity, with 28.5 grains of RL-15 getting 3635 fps at 53,500 PSI.

Alliant later started having Speer do their load testing, since Speer is part of ATK. The last purely Alliant data I have, from a 2005 booklet, doesn�t even list RL-7 for any .223 load, but does still list the same RL-15 45-grain load. The most recent on-line data, from the Speer lab, lists the maximum RL-7 charge as 20.5 grains, for 3011 fps. There�s no pressure data, however.

New powders appear all the time, and it�s tough to keep up with them all. However, I try, and the latest data shows powders that will come very close to the velocity your chronograph claims for your Reloder 7 load with PUBLISHED DATA. In my 26� heavy-barrel Remington 28.5 grain of TAC gets 3872 fps, and in my 22� T/C Icon 28.0 grains of Benchmark gets 3778. Those are over an Oehler 35P.

Both TAC and Benchmark are much slower powders than RL-7, so would seem to be safer bets for maximum velocities, especially since published data produces very high speeds.

I note that antelope sniper posted he used QuickLoad to estimate the pressure of your RL-7 load at 69,000+ psi. I used the old standby formula of pressure increasing twice as fast a velocity, and came up with 72,000. This is right around where brass cases will indeed hold together for a while, but is far above the SAAMI limit for the .223 of 56,500 PSI. It�s also 4000-7000 PSI above the SAAMI limit for ANY centerfire rifle round.

That is, if your Chrony shows the actual velocity. I�ve already expressed my doubts about Chronys, due to my long experience with several. My last one averaged 2% faster than two different Oehlers, which meant readings in the 4000 fps range were actually about 100 fps slower.

Personally, I would rather try for 4000 fps with 40�s by using TAC or Benchmark, or any other slower powder that gets 3800 or so with published data. The end result would be far more likely to be under 65,000 PSI, the generally acknowledged safe limit for modern bolt rifles.

JB, i use a PACT model 1 XP chronograph, and i have done velocity testing with Seafire. We set up our chronographs, and he fired 5 through mine, and then 5 more through his. They were both within 50 FPS of each other IIRC.

I loaded up and shot some through his and then through mine. Again, within 50 FPS.

What did surprise me though was when we fired the same ammo out of the different chambers through the same chronograph. That saw almost 100 FPS difference IIRC. I guess the same ammo out of different rifles can make a large difference in speed as well.

My friend and I both use chrony's and they read almost exactly the same readings in our tests. Maybe both are wrong.

We both shoot 527 223's, his an american and mine a varmint. Shooting his loads in my gun using 40's, register 150 fps less than thru his american. So, what is the answer?

My guess is we know a heck of a lot less than we think about ballistics. If Seafire can get 10 reloads, something is wrong but I have no idea what.

I've only shot RL7 in the .221. But 40's will do much better in a .223 than I think most people realize. Best accuracy is the first goal....like you, I find what's most accurate, velocity will be whatever it is. One bolt gun with 20" barrel likes VV133, the best 40gr. load is at 3895. Another bolt with 26" barrel, 40gr load is 4010 with AA2015 powder. Both are very nicely accurate. Chambers are minimal length, .250" nk, 0 freebore. Brass is IMI. I've yet to lose a primer pocket. Pact Pro chrono which reads within 20fps of my friend's Oehler 35.

No matter what velocity you post for any cartridge, there're always people saying that's too fast because it's more than what such and such manual says. Or....."you're way overpressure because xx program says so", or "you're gonna kill yourself"....etc. And the people who like to assume that velocity means inaccuracy.

Several years ago the .223 case was uprated to 62-65K psi. And it's meaningless to go by what a reloading manual says is max velocity. They don't use the same gun setup as mine or yours. There's an interesting test in the Ramshot Load Guide #1. In the XTerminator section they did a .223 primer comparison........same brass-bullet-powder charge, 5 different primers. Highest ave. pressure was just under 50,887 psi, vel. 3367.....lowest ave. pressure was 6,000psi LESS, velocity was 30fps less. Same load, just different primers. Wonder what velocity would be with that lowest pressure primer and more powder.

Looks to me that you have a good load there.

Mr Barsness,

John, I appreciate your thoughtful response to my post answering your questions...

You mention that Nowhere else in your manuals is any reloader powder mentioned in the Hodgdon 25 and 27 Manuals, and that you don't have the 26th Edition... I had the 27th somewhere around here, but it was so lacking compared to the 26th edition, I have no idea where I put it...

However as far as Reloader series mentioned in the 26th manual, there are quite a few cartridges it is mentioned...
RL 7 data alone is listed for the 222 REM, the 222 Rem Mag, ( with RL 7 being the only powder from the Reloader series listed for the 222 Rem Mag ( page 102), 22 PPC, 22 BR Rem, the 22.250 ( with bullet weights from 40 to 60-64 grain bullets) then going to 6mm, the 6PPC, the 6 BR

My Lyman # 47 Manual, I cross reference it, and it lists corresponding ( or in the neighborhood) loads for RL 7 in the various 22 caliber rounds, plus in cartridges all the way thru 300 Win Mag for example...

even my newer Lyman Manuals 48 and 49, list pretty much the same data using RL 7 in various 22 caliber rounds...

if one consults Sierra's # 5 Manual, in the 22 caliber cartridge section, one will also note that RL 7 is also used quite liberally on a number of differnent 22 caliber chamberings to include the 223 and the 22.250, with data mirroring what is posted in the Lyman Manuals and the Hodgdon # 26 manual...

There are so many powders, I know no one can keep on top of all of them... especially when I am sure your job requires you keep up to date on newer developments instead of old stuff..

I test a lot and see what works, and then chronograph it, to see what I have...

but I admit, since there was no much change in the data from Lyman 47 to Lyman 49, and a long ago call to Ben Ammonette down in Radford VA, at Alliant's Plant, he had told me there was not different in RL 7... as I had called him and noticed that the color of the powder had changed, from a light tan color like ADI's powder, to a dark color like IMR's 4895 for instance...

Just a little more background...

I appreciate your time to respond to my post..

best regards
john chr.
seafire

For those inquiring minds...the most common primer I used is the CCIs... however I have used these loads with Win and Fed Small Rifle primers...

That's usually my suggestion as well, at least with 10x Benchmark, 2230, WW 748, 335 or 2520. Powders that on paper at least, have a slower burn rate or run out of capacity.

Only one of the latest manuals show RL-7 getting more speed from a 40 in .223 than 10x, when both powders are listed (Berger) and its about 400 fps (300 with H335) shy of 4,000 fps, FWIW.

I'm shooting 28.3 of TAC behind a 40gr Varmageddon. Velocity is in the 3850 range from a 24" barrel. Worked up loads here, saw no signs of pressure and it was extremely accurate. These loads were developed at about 500 feet in elevation -- 75ish degrees.

Took the rifle (and loads) to Montana last summer for my annual prairie dog jaunt. When the gun got hot after repetitive fire, I noticed the bolt was a little sticky and primers were a little flat. I'll back off that load a little in the future. I think I was at the upper limits of performance and safety with that rifle....

TAC has done some wonky stuff on a hot day, hot gun for me.

I always do work up on the least fun day in July/August! Eliminates most surprises!

FWIW, Benchmark isn't quite so erratic at high temps/hot gun, but it makes sense to use two guns if you need oven mitts for the one!

Just tried Seafires load in 2 rifles. Worked the load up from 24 gr like he said and when I got to 27 gr I chronoed it. From a 20 " barrel I got 3920 fps and the 24 " barrel { both M12 Savage single shot varmint rifles} I got 3997 fps. Primer looked good, bolt lifted good. I will shoot it tomorrow for groups but as of now I'm thinking a lot of people owe Seafire an apology.......
Thanks Seafire !! Now I can make it rain sage rats in 4 time zones !!

On another forum there was a post about the 223 and 40's at 4000. People talked about doing it, no controversy. Nice you're actually finding out about this. It'll be interesting to see what kind of accuracy you get. I'd never thought about using RL7 in a 223 but obviously it works. Seafire knows what he's doing. Hope it shoots well.

Decided to use the R7 for 1 of my savage M12 single shot 223s and worked up a good load and recorded all the info of the load and OAL and all that stuff.... then went and looked at the measurements for the other M12 and it was exactly the same. I tried the load in the 2nd rifle and it shot the same 1/2 " group as the first. NOW HOW HANDY IS THAT ???
The first load I tried I thought I had died and went to reloader heaven. 40 BT with 37 gr of R7 got me 4052 on the first shot.... and the second shot and the 3rd shot stuck the bolt for a second and then I got it opened. I backed off 1/2 gr and the speed dropped to 3909 fps. That last little bit of powder makes on heck of a difference. BE CAREFULL !!

Interesting.... in my Ruger, I was shooting 27 grains under both a 35 grain NTX and a 40 grain Varmaggeddon bullet and didn't seem to phase it at all... neither in the Rem VLS...

may be the seating depth... or the primers used... but CCI and FEDERALS perform the same...

but Ackley338/06 makes the good point of working up as each rifle is an entity onto itself...