Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Berger bullets for elk?

This is all very interesting. I've come to the conclusion reading this that even the biggest proponents of using Bergers on Elk don't recommend them if the shot angle is less than ideal or heavy bone may be encountered (doubly interesting that many of these same individuals slap themselves on the back for shooting an Elk at 800 yds). I'm sorry, but I just don't have any patience for stuff like that in the name of high BC "target" bullets. Pass the Barnes LRX please. They shoot more accurately anyway.

Well I kinda feel the same way but a couple of people whose experiences and opinions I trust say they will do the job and are especially effective at really long range, where I can see them working fine....all this sets up this HUGE conflict in my brain

I reconcile all this by factoring in that I am not a real LR shooter (being all done at 500-600 yards)....and simply stick to the deeper penetrating stuff I am used to using

I am a bit mystified by the comments of some Berger users who say the elk simply shrug off solid chest hits with things like Partitions and others....sort of wander around a great distance before they collapse...which has not been my experience at all.

Maybe I am angling too many shots through bones?

Who uses Berger bullets for elk? Results/experiences please.

...........Landkiller.....Realize that most if not all of the VLD detractors on any VLD thread such as this where this is debated, haven`t used them on elk or on any other game. To not use them is their choice and they are entitled to their anti VLD opinion.

What you do, is take stock from those who have frequently used them on elk, such as John Burns and a few others. Their experiences using VLDs on elk is far more than most including me as well.

Of my 10 elk taken, the latest one was killed with a 30 cal 190 hunting VLD. Thought I`d give the VLD a try and keep an open mind. Well! It did not disappoint.

Fired from 328 yards at a 2830-40 MV, the 190 penetrated the right shoulder bone and continued on doing massive internal damage with bullet fragmentation found just below the hide on the other side. The bull staggered about 3 to maybe 4 yards and then collapsed.

I have to say that out of the ten, the VLD gave me the quickest kill.

The perverbial thinking of many `ol school hunters as was mentioned on this thread earlier, is that they can`t seem to get their heads out of the sand when it comes to the VLDS. They automatically associate "hunting" VLDs as "MATCH ONLY" paper punching bullets and should not be used on elk.

Well I say to them. Look at the successful VLD results on elk by John Burns and by many others.

Imo, that alone trumps their old school way of thinking and their lack of experience.

To find out how they work just as with the rest of us VLD users have!! You just have to try them for yourself.

...........Landkiller.....Realize that most if not all of the VLD detractors on any VLD thread such as this where this is debated, haven`t used them on elk or on any other game. To not use them is their choice and they are entitled to their anti VLD opinion.

What you do, is take stock from those who have frequently used them on elk, such as John Burns and a few others. Their experiences using VLDs on elk is far more than most including me as well.

Of my 10 elk taken, the latest one was killed with a 30 cal 190 hunting VLD. Thought I`d give the VLD a try and keep an open mind. Well! It did not disappoint.

Fired from 328 yards at a 2830-40 MV, the 190 penetrated the right shoulder bone and continued on doing massive internal damage with bullet fragmentation found just below the hide on the other side. The bull staggered about 3 to maybe 4 yards and then collapsed.

I have to say that out of the ten, the VLD gave me the quickest kill.

The perverbial thinking of many `ol school hunters as was mentioned on this thread earlier, is that they can`t seem to get their heads out of the sand when it comes to the VLDS. They automatically associate "hunting" VLDs as "MATCH ONLY" paper punching bullets and should not be used on elk.

Well I say to them. Look at the successful VLD results on elk by John Burns and by many others.

Imo, that alone trumps their old school way of thinking and their lack of experience.

To find out how they work just as with the rest of us VLD users have!! You just have to try them for yourself.

Fair enough. I am curious though if you would recommend the Berger VLD if you had to put one through an 800lb Bull Elk's paunch enroute to his heart at 75 yds? Realizing of course that real Elk hunters pass on those types of shots. I however am not a real Elk hunter (I've never even shot the all important real elk hunters obligitory cow elk for pitty sakes) so wouldn't pass on such a shot.

As I�ve pointed out before, first-hand experience is not the only way of learning � if it was we would still be living in caves and communicating with grunts and other primitive pre-language sounds. Why is it that proponents of various products always drag out this red herring when trying to discount people with different views?

There are many accounts of Berger VLDs failing to perform in a manner I consider acceptable including some in this thread and claims by the manufacturer.


What? Pay attention to what others have said about their experiences with VLDs in lieu of first-hand experience? Kind negates the point of your first paragraph, doesn�t it?

I agree though, pay attention to the experience of others. In my case I pay particular attention when I read things from the manufacuter that suggests performance is not what I want and when proponents of the bullet confirm that type of performance � i.e. a wound channel of 13-15�, with high fragmentation. There is no doubt in my mind that that kind of performance works great when you stick one between the ribs or that such performance may cause problems when things don�t work out as planned. One thing I prepare for is a wounded animal heading away. If/when that happens I want a bullet that will penetrate deeply and I don�t trust Bergers to do the job. By contrast I�ve run North Fork and MRX end-to-end on muleys, dropping them in their tracks. A Berger could not have dropped them any faster unless they fell before the shot.



Use them if you want � they don�t meet my criteria and I�ve decided not to use them for good reasons. This �old school� guy prefers other modern bullets including North Fork, Barnes TTSX/MRX, AccuBond and so far they have worked just fine. Even the older Grand Slams performed very well, putting game on the ground quickly with 2 holes in almost every case.

Of the 10 elk I�ve taken since 2000, when I started keeping good records, 6 have gone straight down and two more went 5 yards or less. That leaves one that went 25 and one that went 40. It is possible 10 of 10 would have gone straight down with Bergers, but even Berger users don�t always claim straight-down results, so I doubt it.

Thanks, but I�ll stick with modern bullets that provide controlled but limited expansion, relatively high weight retention, penetrate deeply, provide good to excellent accuracy and work well under as wide a range of impact velocities as possible. The ones I use seem to be working just fine and I trust them to work in situations where my level of confidence in Bergers would be much lower.


Do that, and then look at the reports of those that have been less than thrilled with VLD performance. Then make up your mind.



Back to the first-hand experience red herring, yet above you suggest listening to others. Do so and you will find many happy stories and plenty of those that are less so.

I consider VLDs may be one of the best available for long range shooting. Inside 600 yards, which is what I practice to, I find no need for them and have valid concerns about performance at short range (high velocity impact) where I expect more fragmentation. No doubt performance would be fine on a well-placed broadside, maybe not so much on angles where other bullets would work just fine.

...

Have any VLD detractors here personally called and talked with Berger or studied their site? I doubt it. Maybe watch any of the videos previously posted on the Berger site, where various hunting VLDs were fired into carcasses including bone at point blank range? I doubt it.

... Well I have called Berger on several occasions including a couple of times prior to my first VLD kill on elk several years ago. And one of the questions and concerns I had was regarding the maximum impact velocities where the bullet would still be able to do its job without fragmenting to hell before the vitals are greatly disrupted.

This is what they (one of the higher up techs) said....Using the hunting VLDs, "we like" an impact speed to generally not exceed 3000 fps. And that 3000 fps figure is not set in stone or is an absolute max.

Now given the average killing distances for elk all across the board, do you think that a 3000 fps impact speed and less would fall under most if not all of the cartridges used for elk? Now there may be some extreme examples where someone might use a 300 RUM at less than 100-150 yards using say a 185 gr Berger at 3350-3400 fps MV that he loaded to max that will exceed a 3000 fps impact speed. And who is to say, that a reloader cannot down load his 300 RUM Berger VLD hunting load a bit.

But given most elk hunting situations, a 3000 fps impact speed and less, will be far, far more common than otherwise.

And that is why I wouldn`t hesitate.

No personal experience with the Berger bullets

This is all very interesting. I've come to the conclusion reading this that even the biggest proponents of using Bergers on Elk don't recommend them if the shot angle is less than ideal or heavy bone may be encountered (doubly interesting that many of these same individuals slap themselves on the back for shooting an Elk at 800 yds). I'm sorry, but I just don't have any patience for stuff like that in the name of high BC "target" bullets. Pass the Barnes LRX please. They shoot more accurately anyway.

Fair enough. I am curious though if you would recommend the Berger VLD if you had to put one through an 800lb Bull Elk's paunch enroute to his heart at 75 yds? Realizing of course that real Elk hunters pass on those types of shots. I however am not a real Elk hunter (I've never even shot the all important real elk hunters obligitory cow elk for pitty sakes) so wouldn't pass on such a shot.

Well I kinda feel the same way but a couple of people whose experiences and opinions I trust say they will do the job and are especially effective at really long range, where I can see them working fine....all this sets up this HUGE conflict in my brain

I reconcile all this by factoring in that I am not a real LR shooter (being all done at 500-600 yards)....and simply stick to the deeper penetrating stuff I am used to using

I am a bit mystified by the comments of some Berger users who say the elk simply shrug off solid chest hits with things like Partitions and others....sort of wander around a great distance before they collapse...which has not been my experience at all.

Maybe I am angling too many shots through bones?

You would be wrong, as I've both talked directly with Berger, studied their web site thoroughly and had an online discussion with someone from the factory. In addition I've read reports by those who were happy with the results and those who were not, watched numerous videos, studied photographs of recovered bullets and still find no reason to use them for my hunting.



I have a couple problems with the above - one with the 3000fps impact speed as being an upper limit where the Berger VLDs will work " fragmenting to hell" and the other the "average" distance at which elk are taken.

First, I have no faith the VLDs won't " fragment to hell" at considerably less than 3000fps impact velocities, especially if bone is hit or maybe even an unseen twig. In the Barnes bone/gelatin tests, for example, a 7mm 168g VLD impacting at 2830fps penetrated 14-1/4" and retained only 24.3% of its original weight - pretty much the results advertised by Berger.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/bullet-talk/lab-tests/

As to the " average killing distances for elk", averages are just that - averages. Most elk are killed at ranges longer or shorter ranges. In 31 years I've never known at what ranges I would shoot until after the actual shot. One day might find me hunting the dense stuff while the next I'm looking across expanses of grass and sage. In years like 2007, where I anticipated 400-600 yards shots, I ended up taking one at 120 yards. A day or two later I passed on a second at 25 feet, only to take one moments later at 40 yards. Last year I was hunting sage with a bull tag in my pocket, in an area where I've taken several elk over the years, and took a muley buck on a quartering away shot at about 20-25 yards with a 180g MRX. The bullet's muzzle velocity was 3038fps last time I chrono'd one. The buck went maybe 3 yards and down. The next day I took my cow at 400 yards, my longest shot ever, with similar results - it swapped ends and took a step or so back the way it had come, then turned uphill for another step or two and went down. In any case, based on my "averages", I don't need a bullet that I think is best suited to ranges over 600 yards, partiularly since I only practice to 600.

Please keep in mind I bear no ill will towards those that choose differently - I just don't see VLDs as a viable solution for my hunting.

"FIRST" hand experience beats down the line heresay.

Pics display experience. Care to display your VLD experience?

]..............CH...........I think that John Burns last posting sums things up quite well.

One quote you gave earlier on this thread that he points out, is that you have never used the VLDs for hunting. Well that is your choice not to use them. And as John Burns and I pointed out earlier, it seems clear on these VLD threads, that most if not all VLD detractors have not used them in the field.

And while you say that you know folks that have had VLD failures, there are always other mitigating circumstances as to why. Like why did the VLD fail? Did the elk get away?

I was looking for some real documented or real published links from articles from reliable magazine sources from you. Unless I missed something, I didn`t see any link or source from you in your previous post. Talking with others and getting their opinions are all well and good. But all that is, is 2nd party and beyond heresay. Actual evidence of failure trumps heresay.

So for you, the VLDs will never be on your hunting menu. And you can continue to justify your con opinions about them all you want. And that`s ok! Nevertheless, that does not diminish the fact that the VLDs are extremely lethal elk killers whether it be from the shorter ranges or at the longer extended ranges.

I simply asked the question if any con people to the VLDs called Berger and watched the videos on their site. When I stated that "I doubted it", that didn`t mean that I was 100% sure of that.

The hunting VLDs throw all kinds of wrenches into the traditional thinking of how a bullet "should" work after impact. Your choice is to stick with the traditional methods and thinking.

We successful VLD users at one point had to make the gamble and try them for ourselves for the very first time. It is obvious that you are not willing to go there.

Well until you do CH and are willing to set aside all the second hand heresay from this so and so and from that so and so, it seems to me that regardless of what you state that justifies their non use on elk, it is all conjecture based on opinion which you are entitled to have.

"FIRST" hand experience beats down the line heresay.

And how many times have we read about other so called bullet failure about other brand name bullets on this forum? There have been a few.

The bottom line is that your "after impact" bullet philosophy doesn`t match up with the hunting VLDS.