Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Berger bullets for elk?

Way too much common sense in your post "goodshot."

You're obligated to delete it as it's entirely too logical.

Guy

goodshot -

Waiting for a clean shot opportunity is highly recommended but the key word there is "opportunity". Many times the best opportunity presented is less than ideal, other times the shooter screws up or the animals moves at the last possible instant or the shot doesn't work out as intended for whatever reason. More than once I've been presented with "take the shot offered or go home empty-handed" opportunities and I've gone both ways as a result. As I've found in the past, a great opportunity does not always translate to great bullet placement. That is why I believe it is prudent to work for the best and plan for the worst. Most any bullet will work in the former case, not so much in the second.

My philosophy of "shoot them until they are down and stay that way" is shared by many responsible elk hunters. While some might think that means "fill the air with a wall of lead, reload and go again", what it has meant for me is a quick follow-up shot if the elk is still standing. The photo below shows what I think is the most bullets I've ever put in an elk, three total.

If you look closely you can see grass through the hole in the circle. That was from shot #1, a full broadside at 265 yards. The poor placement was my fault entirely and the cow was still standing and walking slowly. I adjusted my position, took shot #2, again on a broadside. The cow remained standing so I took #3 a few seconds later. Shots #2 and #3 made a single, elongated hole. On skinning the animal it became apparent shot #3 was unnecessary and simply hastened the inevitable - probably by no more than a few seconds.



The worst-case scenario for me would be a wounded elk that is heading away or a quartering shot from the rear where the elk moves as the trigger breaks, as happened to me with a buck muley several years ago. In such cases I want a bullet that will expand reliably but hold together for deep penetration, and even then there is no guarantee. That said, I've driven MRX and TTSX front-to-rear on muleys and a North Fork from ham to sternum on another. In my (all-important to some) first-hand experience these bullets have proven to be very reliable and quick killers regardless of the angle.

Less than three weeks ago Daughter #3 became a first-time homeowner. Two days ago severe winds came up and blew part of a neighbor's giant maple tree down on her home. Thank goodness Daughter #3 had insurance, which will pay for the repair of the hole in her roof, the damage siding, broken glass and cleanup. Stuff happens. That tree is of unknown age but it had been standing for many years without causing any problems. Stuff happens and the wise take reasonable precautions. Working for the best shot opportunity is only the first such precaution to my way of thinking. Once the trigger breaks it is all up to the bullet and choosing one that performs well under as wide a variety of circumstances as possible seems a logical second step to me.

Is there more, less, or about the same meat damage with Bergers as say Barnes or Patitions ?

Coyote Hunter, I agree to a point. I have made those shots you describe, mainly while bow hunting, and wounded and lost animals. I feel terrible when that has happened. I remember when Whitetail hunting in Northern Wisconsin ( I lived up there for 8 years) we would sometimes have to push deer out of tag alder swamps, and the shot angles were many times less than ideal. My bullet of choice was the Nosler Partision. Many of the newer bullets were not out then, and I could never get the older Barnes bullets to shoot out of my older Remington 721. I later purchased a .280 Remington Weatherby MK5 that shot just about everything great. So here is my bottom line....if I felt the hunting presentation was going to be such that less than perfect shot angles were probably going to happen, use a tougher bullet. We did a lot of stand hunting as well, and could usually wait for the proper shot angle.i now hunt Montana up in the wheat country for Mule Deer, some Whitetails and Antelope. Sierra Gamekings and Nosler Ballistic tips have worked perfectly. Now, if I headed to the Bob Marshall area or somthing like that....I would be taking my larger guns with tougher bullets, knowing that angle shots are going to be all that might present themselves. My point was mainly that the condition somewhat determines the bullet type. I think the John Burn's of the world are number one, superb rifle shots, twoM use top shelf equipment, three....practice a ton. I have personal limits I set on how far I will Try to shoot due to my skill set. I will not take a shot that is behind my comfort zone. I think we are both on the same page here, but I do think we all have a certain level of responsibility to pass on shots that are questionable at best. Best of luck this year, and thank you for a very fair comment and some great points. Goodshot

Gravestone,

Meat damage depends on where you put Bergers--but it's different than with other bullets. First, since they don't immediately start to expand, like every conventional hunting bullet. In fact the entrance hole is often so tiny you have to part the hair to find it, and the meat behind the hole isn't damaged, unlike conventional bullets where most shredded meat is right around the entrance.

The big damage occurs when the bullet expands after 2-3" of penetration, which normally means the innards get the worst of it--the reason Bergers kill so quickly. On smaller animals they often exit, and that's where the most meat damage can occur.

However, because Bergers do so much interior damage, I've found they kill just fine when placed a little further behind the shoulder than many of us place other bullets. If you keep 'em in the ribs, going and coming, meat damage is non-existent. A good example is the last animal I killed with a Berger VLD, a pronghorn buck taken with a 140-grain 6.5. He was almost broadside, just slightly quartering toward me, and I put the bullet a couple inches behind the shoulder. There was the typical knitting-needle hole there, and about a 1-1/2" exit hole in the middle of the ribs on the far side. The buck went about 10 yards, obviously dead on his feet. The inside of the chest looked like blood soup.

On bigger animals there often isn't enough left of the bullet to do any meat damage by the time they reach the far side. I shot a broadside red stag, weighing about 400 pounds, through the top of the top of the heart with a 168 from a .30-06. There was again the typical small hole through the meat of the shoulder, just behind the bone, but no exit. Fragments of the bullet pepper the inside of the far ribcage, but none penetrated the meat. The stag died right there, his heart literally turned inside out, into a loose flap of muscle.

I like that combination of quick-killing and minimal meat loss, but I've shot quite a few animals with VLD's and know how they work, so have faith in not having to put them through even the shoulder muscle for quick kills.

John "Back to the Future" as they say! Does the time lapse allow me to call back a lousy shot?

Well actually a lot of what you say makes a lot of sense (since you are one of those "couple of people" whose opinion I trust).

I don't know of an expanding bullet that can be relied upon to make it all the way from the rear end clear to the chest cavity of an elk, although have no doubt that it has been done....maybe a Barnes or other mono?

For the record I have never done it nor tried it on an elk, but have seen it done with the 338-210 NPT....and I tend to think it was mostly damage to the pelvic region that sort of ended things. Don't know where that 210 ended up.

One thing for sure and that is it seems the bigger the animal the more precisely they should be hit. I think the whole Berger conversation is over for me. ..lots of wasted bandwidth and folks are always going to have different opinions based on "what if" scenarios, plus personal preferences in bullet types and so forth; plus it is very hard to argue with so many carcasses.

I would rather have more conversations about why the 270 sucks so bad ....

Thanks John, I'm going to try the 105g in my .243.I have Rem. 700 w/ a 9 1/8 twist.
The fella that's going to load them has the same rifle and says they fly fine. I'll be using that load on whitetail.

2011 winter moose hunt on the west fork little delta, bud shot a moose 300 ultra mag using bergers bullets 200-250ydsc... From what i saw and moose trotting away after hit, bud was able to catch up with it on a sled and finish it off at 50 yds. will never use them... Their are better alternatives to the berger... [bleep] im using regular old 200gr speer hot cor in my 325wsm... Last yr we got two winter moose using 325 with 200gr accubonds... Two others used barnes bullets on thier moose...

I'll use VLD's in my 7LRM build, but I think if I get a rifle elk tag, Ill use heavy for caliber Accubonds, TTSX, or Partitions. Just personal preference.

.............I have enough to display. And it is my choice how to display them and by what method I damn well please.

And if you really wish for me to keep my mouth shut, then all you gotta do SBC is send me a PM, get on a plane and come down here and proceed to shut my mouth.

And if by some remote, stellar, and astronomical chance you happen to succeed, then I will no longer post on this forum again. You`d better get your meds plus your medical insurance updated. Facial disruptions, testicle relocation plus major bone breaks won`t be cheap to repair. Not a threat SBC. Just a fact. That`ll be your choice and major consequence to follow.

So! Wanna shut my mouth SBC?......Then go for it!

If not, then your words telling me to shut my mouth are pathetically useless.

Now! How many more times are you going to follow my posts telling me to keep my mouth shut? Your time to waste!

How about this. You can either put up or "you" can shut up. That works both ways...........

You never read anything from me following your posts. But since you seem obsessed with following some of mine and making your demands that I do this and I do that and to shut up as well, then what better a way to get your wish than get in person go- round with me.

I`ll keep an eye on my PMs...........Crickets, crickets and more crickets.

Another VLD saga continues. mtmuley

Glad your people skills are still intact. I'm just wanting some evidence that you are not the do-nothing-moron that your posts display. I continue to love your determination to defend your honor by sharing your threats/facts on every request. There is no doubt that once you're a bigliar, you're always a bigliar.

Lee24 lives...

Kent

Geeze.....I forgot the popcorn!

Go easy guys or he'll have to fake his own death again...

On second thought carry on!

Not me! NOT UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES. No way no how, not with a Berger, And yes I have used them plenty of times and have seen what they can do.

...............Yep! U want, U want and U want....."I`m just wanting" you say...........

Well you want some hunting/bullet evidence there SBC? Then you know exactly what to do and where to go to get your evidence.

Big liar and do nothing moron....Well that`s one comment easily typed on a keyboard. And no doubt, that is exactly where it will stay where you are concerned, because cowardly cowards don`t like any in-person confrontations.

You have more things to say, requests to make, or any other business with me,,,then use PMs.

Still trying to bait someone to come to your house. It would be pathetic if it weren't so sad. Take care of all this by hanging a couple pics of some of your elk/grizzlies/pigs. There's no need to pull the mall ninja card every time you get excited......

Knowing enough people that make their living hunting and shooting who recommend Berger's tells me a lot. And none are sponsored (that I know of).

Even old school guys who won't shoot mags and don't wear camo but still like the VLD's.

Now, full disclosure is that I shoot Accubond's from .30 mags at elk typically. Why? Because when I get comfortable with accuracy and I can predict down range performance, I get obsessive about not changing one iota.

That being said, I've got 110 grain VLD's on order for my .257 Weatherby for 3rd season deer and an antelope hunt this fall.

Almost forgot, this one was killed by a buddy I guided with a 130 grain VLD. Died pretty well.