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Joined: Apr 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
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there's a few good areas in the Brooks that have been hammered due to over hunting.
we explored a new area one year with an outfitter I worked for, lots of sheep, some good rams, we took a 39" and a 38" out of that particular drainage.
it's state land, so no concession area, in the following years another outfitter started working that same drainage.
he was killing every legal sheep that could be found in the drainage, sometimes bringing 10-12 hunters in there per season.
sad deal, some folks just live for today.
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,075
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,075 |
How about making every area a registration hunt, with harvest numbers strictly enforced based on the herd numbers. Break the units down to city block sized subunits so certain pockets don't get hammerer while other , harder to reach ones are never hunted. Get rid of the full curl rule, but shut down the hunt when the target number is reached.
"243/85TSX It's as if the HAMMER OF THOR were wielded by CHUCK NORRIS himself, and a roundhouse kick thrown in for good measure."
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 11,273
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 11,273 |
This is a sad conversation to hear. I hope that by the time I've progressed with a career and have the money to pay for a hunt or 2, the situation is a bit different.
Too many hunters and not enough sheep is a tough conundrum...
Tanner
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Joined: Nov 2012
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,349 |
How about making every area a registration hunt, with harvest numbers strictly enforced based on the herd numbers. Break the units down to city block sized subunits so certain pockets don't get hammerer while other , harder to reach ones are never hunted. Get rid of the full curl rule, but shut down the hunt when the target number is reached. That is how the registration hunts are for goats. The system works pretty well until there are 15 people that shoot animals on opening day and the area only has 4-5 points available (for example). It would be almost impossible to keep track of what is being killed hour by hour and some areas would get absolutely hammered.
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 55 |
The Brooks is getting hammered. These photos were taken at the landing strip they are from 2 different years 2010 and 2013. I just don't see this as sustainable. One of these rams was also sub-legal.
Last edited by 1sgStephen; 02/25/14.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2 |
SD I have heard Wayne Heimer dispute this on many occasions and you can google him and read that only weather effects overall populations and full curl harvest hasn't yet been shown to,effect overall population size or even sub legal rams. Over harvest or rams, if it can be demonstrated only effects legal rams that year. Joe want gives a pretty good talk about the exaggeration of over harvest in alaska. I have also heard and read Heimer on the subject... frankly, I find him almost up to underwhelming... To suggest "ONLY" weather affects anything is patently absurd and untenable as a position in any system of any complexity.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
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Oh, and Joe Want is convinced 50% of legal sheep on average are left in the mountains each year... I respectfully think that is far too low...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 464
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 464 |
I think I remember seeing those brooks range harvest pictures. I think the transporters using that strip are over harvesting it, but it will be self limiting as future drop offs will find less sheep and demand new areas. I was just reading an article Lyman Nichols explaining why full curl harvest doesn't affect the population much. I can't cite it cause I don't know how to work this damn iPad. But anyway he explains that since rams and ewes do not utilize the same habitat and density is the only major effect on sheep besides weather the full curl harvest doesn't effect total populations negatively. Also taking some full curls out of the population means less fighting for breeding rights increasing survival and also sheep have been breeding for several years before they reach full curl so there are plenty of breeding rams.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2 |
And I disagree strenuously with much anecdotal evidence to back it up.
A sheep bio with major stains on his hands is far more likely to defend that which he did, rather than open his eyes and actually look at the proof... Just as Joe Want needs to defend his actions and claim no over-harvest happened under his watch.
Again, you use "only" and that defeats every serious argument presented before it even starts.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 999
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 999 |
Oh, and Joe Want is convinced 50% of legal sheep on average are left in the mountains each year... I respectfully think that is far too low... I didn't see Joe's presentation, and haven't been able to find a copy of it. I did my own investigation using the same procedure and numbers he was given. Note that basically all areas are seeing an increase in ram harvest (or is it a decrease in population?).
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 542
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 542 |
Thanks for sharing this Art/Sitka Deer. I'm jumping in late here, but appreciated all the comments and insight.
Question for you Art. If you were in charge of F&G what would you do? Feel free to PM me if you prefer, just curious what you would do about sheep hunting issues if given free reign/total control.
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Usually ADF&G waits until it's an all out disaster before they act!
I believe that sheep should be put on a 4 year cycle just like brown bears in trophy area's. I know this will horrify some people but a Dall Ram is a trophy and the people that want to kill a ram every year are essentially meat hunters. I have felt this way for 20 years and would like to see it before the whole state is on a permit system.
I tend to use more than enough gun
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,831 Likes: 2 |
The outfit I hunted Goats with used to do Sheep hunts and I asked the owner about doing one. He said that he would not be doing any Sheep hunts in the immediate future and probably longer than that.
When I asked him why, the response was too many were being taken for the good of the animals and that until they have a chance to bounce back significantly he will not hunt them on a commercial basis.
Just something from an outsider looking in.
laissez les bons temps rouler
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Joined: May 2011
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2011
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I just don't see this as sustainable. One of these rams was also sub-legal.
yep...third ram from the right. Underage, and less than full curl. Was the hunter cited? Full curl regs are imperative for sheep quality in AK. Heimer was spot on. It has made for tougher but more gratifying hunting with more mature rams.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
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Thanks for sharing this Art/Sitka Deer. I'm jumping in late here, but appreciated all the comments and insight.
Question for you Art. If you were in charge of F&G what would you do? Feel free to PM me if you prefer, just curious what you would do about sheep hunting issues if given free reign/total control. First I would dump the full-curl rule which would stop the degrade clearly seen in the Chugach... The first effect from that move would be a reduction in the numbers of drawing permits available to kill the same number of sheep (higher success rate, younger rams). It would also reduce the number of sheep available in non-draw areas. That would mean some way of reducing hunter effort would be required... I would favor a shorter season, highly desirable areas like the Chugach would go to one sheep every four years (but allow a hunter to go to the AK Range or similar every year as desired). And I would reduce NR guided tags by 2/3 in drawing hunt areas. Areas with serious guide on guide conflicts would have the number of sheep tags reduced hugely. Would look at the idea of shutting some of the guided hunt areas down for 3-5 years to NR hunters. I would increase the number of Controlled Use areas where sheep hunting was only legal on foot... The idea of creating buffer areas to eliminate flying in to areas close to roads and towns would get some attention where feasible. That is where I would start...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,674 Likes: 2 |
I just don't see this as sustainable. One of these rams was also sub-legal.
Full curl regs are imperative for sheep quality in AK. Heimer was spot on. It has made for tougher but more gratifying hunting with more mature rams. The local sheep biologist does not agree... neither do the facts of the situation.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 542
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 542 |
Thanks for sharing this Art/Sitka Deer. I'm jumping in late here, but appreciated all the comments and insight.
Question for you Art. If you were in charge of F&G what would you do? Feel free to PM me if you prefer, just curious what you would do about sheep hunting issues if given free reign/total control. First I would dump the full-curl rule which would stop the degrade clearly seen in the Chugach... The first effect from that move would be a reduction in the numbers of drawing permits available to kill the same number of sheep (higher success rate, younger rams). It would also reduce the number of sheep available in non-draw areas. That would mean some way of reducing hunter effort would be required... I would favor a shorter season, highly desirable areas like the Chugach would go to one sheep every four years (but allow a hunter to go to the AK Range or similar every year as desired). And I would reduce NR guided tags by 2/3 in drawing hunt areas. Areas with serious guide on guide conflicts would have the number of sheep tags reduced hugely. Would look at the idea of shutting some of the guided hunt areas down for 3-5 years to NR hunters. I would increase the number of Controlled Use areas where sheep hunting was only legal on foot... The idea of creating buffer areas to eliminate flying in to areas close to roads and towns would get some attention where feasible. That is where I would start... Interesting info. Thanks again Art. I have 3 kids and I want to ensure they have the opportunity.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 542
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 542 |
Usually ADF&G waits until it's an all out disaster before they act!
I believe that sheep should be put on a 4 year cycle just like brown bears in trophy area's. I know this will horrify some people but a Dall Ram is a trophy and the people that want to kill a ram every year are essentially meat hunters. I have felt this way for 20 years and would like to see it before the whole state is on a permit system. I have been on 5 sheep hunts since 2008. I have shot one ram during this time. While the meat is good, its the experience that keeps drawing me back, despite my failures. A DIY walk in sheep hunt is an experience unlike any other. I will continue to do as long as I am allowed. Only being able to go very 4 years would be a heartbreaker.. Now if you are meaning specific trophy areas vs. sheep hunting in general I agree. Would be great to have some managed trophy ares where a guy could get a chance to see a monster.. Also there is a lot of federal land out there we can not hunt. Opening all of that up to draws would sure change the game..... AND if done right really help both the sport and the critters.
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 55 |
yep...third ram from the right. Underage, and less than full curl. Was the hunter cited?
Yes, yes he was. Ram taken and hunter cited. Ram was determined to be 7 and less than full curl.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516 |
Usually ADF&G waits until it's an all out disaster before they act!
I believe that sheep should be put on a 4 year cycle just like brown bears in trophy area's. I know this will horrify some people but a Dall Ram is a trophy and the people that want to kill a ram every year are essentially meat hunters. I have felt this way for 20 years and would like to see it before the whole state is on a permit system. I have been on 5 sheep hunts since 2008. I have shot one ram during this time. While the meat is good, its the experience that keeps drawing me back, despite my failures. A DIY walk in sheep hunt is an experience unlike any other. I will continue to do as long as I am allowed. Only being able to go very 4 years would be a heartbreaker.. Now if you are meaning specific trophy areas vs. sheep hunting in general I agree. Would be great to have some managed trophy ares where a guy could get a chance to see a monster.. Also there is a lot of federal land out there we can not hunt. Opening all of that up to draws would sure change the game..... AND if done right really help both the sport and the critters. Hekin, What if once you bagged a sheep you had to wait 3, 4, or 5 years to get another tag? Montana has a 5-year waiting period after bagging a sheep. That's different than just being allowed to buy a TAG only once every four years.
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