Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Ladder test, How, why?

Not really, I haven't looked into it.

Fair enough. Its a decent unit, and I've run it side by side with an Ohler. It does what its supposed to do. Easy to set up, and so far, its proven to be correct.

Although, I will say that some find the concept to be...well...ummm....gimmicky.

R.

On going on record to explain how I've changed the excellent Audette ladder load development system.

Using the different colored markers is an excellent idea. The problem i've run into with this is that depending up the distance, caliber size and quality/power of spotting/rifle scope, the shooter may not be able to see the impacts down range "while" shooing the ladder. When shooting a ladder it is necessary to see/know which shot/impact is which. In addition, if you call a bad shot, you need to know which impact is the bad shot.

A friend of mine from Albuquerque taught me a new technique; home made DirtyBird or Shoot N See targets. Targets that leave a large black impact on a light/white colored backing. I take an 8'x4' sheet of plywood or similar sheet of stiff backing material and cut it in two so I have two 4' x 4' sheets. I then buy a roll of black plastic. Mine was about 20' x 8'. I cut that down to 4' x 4' sheets which are stapled to the plywood. I then take a $.97 cent can of white spray can and spray the entire sheet of black plastic, white. Let it dry and add bright orange aim points. Select your desired distance to shoot at and let fly. With my Zeiss 15-45x spotter I can easily see 22 cal hits at 660 yds. When the bullet hits, the white paint, directly around the impact hole, chips off, exposing the black plastic, easily seen at extended distances.



Above you can easily see my LV Steel 1/2 silhouette, used as a sighter target then looking at the right 4'x4' DirtyBird target you can see my ladder; 3 shots upward, 3 shots across (accuracy node) and 2 more shot above that.

That's my target. How I bring loads to the range is new as well. We all know that BR shooters load their ammo at the range. I modify that by bring prepped and charged cases to the range and seat bullets "as necessary". Below is an MTM ammo boxes with 100 prepped and charged cases.



The first row across is my starting row; for example all are 40 gr. The 2nd row has a .2 gr increase (6.5x47Lapua) and so on and so on until the 10th row has 41.8 gr. I take small, light, handheld press to the range with me with the seating die already pre-adjusted to my desired setting depth. At the range, I fire one round at my steel target to confirm a hit and so I can adjust closer to my intended point of impact. In this case the center orange dot on the 4'x4" DirtyBird target. I then start up the ladder, seating one bullet and shooting; marking the POI on a separate sheet of paper. Even with my NF scope set at 22x I can see the hits. Once the ladder has been shot the MTM ammo box should look something like this.



This ladder showed that 40.4, 40.6 and 40.8 gr showed promise. Now, I take the next 3 unloaded, charged, cases from the 40.4, 40.6 and 40.8 gr rows and seat bullets. I shoot each 3 cartridges at individual aiming spots for 3, 3-shot groups to see which group better. I'm especially looking for zero to nil vertical spread. Once I've done that the MTM box should look like this.



At this point I'm hoping to have narrowed it down to 1 or 2 different powder charges; say 40.6 and 40.8 gr. I then want to play a bit with seating depth; loading up 3 more of the same powder charge. Once I've shot those, my MTM box looks like this.



Now I may want to play a bit more with seating depth; going in or out a bit more�.or��in the opposite direction. My box now looks like this.



At this point, it's time to pack up and go home where I don't need to pull any bullets. I might want to play a bit more with seating depth or try different primers but the majority of my Audette Ladder testing is done and all in one trip and I've only shot a max of 31 rounds; saves on components and barrel life.

Questions?

Alan


dave

Makes WAY too much sense Dave. I'm sure our resident troll from the north will come out from under his bridge and remark what an idiot you are. Before he does, I'd like to thank you for posting that.

I am still not sure how you can shoot accurately enough to tell the difference in a group size to .2 grains of powder? And the longer the distance you shoot at, it would be even more difficult to tell...

R.

He's not looking specifically for group size while shooting the ladder, he is looking for vertical dispersion. Specifically LACK of dispersion, REGARDLESS of the varying powder charge.

Dave,

You should move that guy's rig before shooting the steel.

Everything else looks good.



Travis

So how much vertical dispersion does a guy get, by changing the load by .2 of a grain of powder?
The method is sound in theory, but seriously flawed practically, as it is simply not precise enough, and depends solely on shooter skill for accurate results.

R.

.2 grains difference is plenty to change a load vertically at long range.

Unless you're in the middle of the node!

That's the entire [bleep] point.

That was for you BTW

You obviously have never tried it, but just like everyone else who has no experience with them, speak as an authority on how much the method sucks...


In the immortal words of whoever, "laffin'"

LOL!

Wow. So...just for the record, you are telling me that you are a good enough shot, laying on your gut, or even off of a bench, to tell the difference between .2 of a grain in powder charge, at "long distance"??? How far is that? Do you have to dial 1 and the area code before pulling the trigger?
Also, in order for this to be accurate, the "ladder" would be repeatable, on any given day with similar conditions?

Like I said...that's some Swagger type s&%t, right there...

And, I have tried it. Its a joke, and a waste of time and ammo. It simply isn't accurate enough, unless your end objective is to shoot pop cans in the gravel pit at 100 yards, and if that is the case...rock on!!!! 'Cause you're all over this s&%t!!!!

R.

You fire the rounds at the same POA. The loads themselves sort everything else out. That's the beauty of the method.

Where I see you really don't understand is that the longer the range THE MORE apparent the differences, not the other way around. That's why they are a waste of time at 200 and a little more difficult to read at even 300






This is a bigger case, so I charged them in .5 grain increments. See how just .5 grains causes a change in velocity or exit time and affects POI on the target....?

...until you hit the node...

I am very glad this method works for you. I am also very glad that you think there are zero environmental influences on your bullet over a 600 yard flight. I am impressed that you think you can fire rounds to same POI at 600 yards well enough to discern .5 grains of powder, given all of the other influences on the bullet over a 600 trip.

Without somehow accurately measuring your SD, you're guessing.

Like I said...more than one way to get there, its just that everyone wants to think that their route is the best.

R.

You ought to try one out. You may be surprised.

I have tried it...

Very curious as to what group size you got from the 76, 76.5, and 77.5 loads?

R.

Here is my method (I know this is a rerun but it seems a good place for it).

I loaded a box of 257 Weatherby ammo for a rifle I ordered but didn't have in my hands yet. Took said rifle, put it in a McMillan, screwed on a set of Talley rings and put a second hand Leupold 3.5-10x scope on it.

Fired 3 shots to get it about where I wanted on paper at 100 yards. Fired the 4th shot across the screens to get a velocity (a few would have been nicer but I was trying to work this out in as few a shots as possible). Sent the 5th shot down range at a 5" x 8" Crown Royal box. That shot come up a little short. Clicked another 1/2 MOA and punched the box at 700 yards with the 6th shot ever fired in the rifle. Killed a bear with it at 200 yards a few weeks later with the 7th shot out of the rifle.













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I would have done the ladder test but lugging a God damned ladder out there to shoot from seemed stupid since I had a good pack.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Take whatever rcmagulia is doing, toss it right out the window, and you'll be on the right track.

I'm already on the right track...for me...and it isn't the same one as him...not even close.
But, if it works for him, let him fly at it!

R.

1/2 MOA with the load. 76.5