Two things. Find the top end of your load. Find the node where your rifle is giving you the least amount of vertical on the target across the biggest range of powder charge.
The farther away the better. I like to shoot dual ladders at 500. 500 because I can still see the bullet holes. One in early morning and one about 2 pm. Usually good conditions early morning. Usually crap at 2 in the afternoon. Average it out.
The goal IMO of the ladder test is to find velocity/pressure nodes that give the best accuracy with slight variation of the velocity. These nodes help alleviate inaccuracy due to environmental factors or reloading variation that can affect velocity. It may or many not be at the top end. Usually there are two or three nodes present, depending on how low you start the ladder. I usually pick the case, bullet, primer, powder type, and seating depth I want to use and then vary powder charge. I choose the nodes which are evident by bullets forming "groups" and then shoot additional five shot groups to quantify/verify the accuracy of each node. Select the node you feel most confident in and meets your velocity criteria. Additional ladder testing can then be done to tweak seating depth, keeping aware of the max pressure. Hera again you are looking for the least accuracy sensitive length.
I've found I burn less powder to find a good load for a given bullet/powder combo. 300yds should work well, longer the better as distance makes the velocity variation stand out. 200yds will work, but 100yds is worthless IMO and you are better off trying three shot groups at 100. The variation just doesn't stand out.
Lets work up a ladder test for my .300 wsm, Here's my normal load development for this Cartridge,
165 TSX or GK, 64-67 grains of H4350,with 65 grains almost always showing the best group, I use a difference of 1/2 grain of powder with 5 shells loaded per charge.
Stay with .5 grain increments or drop down to .2 increments? Still focus around 65 grains with .2 diff?
It weeds out the bad ones to start with. Run over chrono so you can see the max coming speed wise/vs pressure.
Then I load up 3 of each of the best 3 in a row generally and shoot again to see.
That will start to confirm. I may do that 2-3 times. Then I'm down to 5 of the best. And from that load I may see if I need to tweak neck tension, seating depth or even something drastic like primer change to see what each one does with the best load at that point.
My loading with your info would be 64, 64.5 and all the way up to 67 or 67.5 depending on what max says, vs your bullet, coated or not and so on, IE all the variables.
Remember, you DON"T HAVE to shoot every one you've loaded if pressure shows...
I've been "fiddling" with loads for a cpl months now. Came up with a load to get .75" at 200 yds where I zero, but at 400 groups were junk. Finally did a ladder test on Friday, shot to confirm today. I should have done the ladder months ago.
I shot 71.5 and 71.8 based on the dispersion noted by Tanner. 71.5 was best but I moved my sight at 71.8 so I'll go back later and re check those two loads.
71.2 is out of the node, 71.5 is the next closest charge, hence the note, I agree I think I'd be much safer/happier around 71.8 or so rather than only a few tenths off a major change.
I like the ladder test because it is the closet thing to simulating changes in conditions mainly temperature that you can get. what you want is a forgiving load that will shoot roughly the same in a variety of conditions. in order to do it you really need the ability to load at the range.
For me a ladder is just to find the powder weight charge that will give me the approx. velocity I want to shoot that bullet at. Predicting accuracy nodes is a little like reading tea leaves IMO
Then the tweeking comes with a seating depth test. The seating depth test will identify best grouping, lowest velocity extreme spread and lowest velocity standard deviation. Varying seating depth will vary you velocity by about 10 or 15 fps per every .015" deeper you seat, so you are essentially timing the bullet exit from the muzzle
On the 3rd page of a post on 1000 yd load development, I posted 2x, the 2nd posting a detailed method I fine tuned from Rcamuglia. Saves on barrel life and components and yet results give me typical 1/2 moa or better loads.
I agree Alan, three shots at 71.8, 71.7, 71.6 and 71.5 would narrow the load down further, preferably at 600 or longer. After ya'll posted the method in my thread last year, I started using it and works well.
Three groups adjusting the seating depth deeper .01, .02 and .03 would further fine tune
It is interesting how a load that shoots almost no vertical at 200 completely blows at 400.
My 200 yard group was .6" with 73.0 gr and at 400 it was maybe 6".
That could be from a number of things...optics power, parallax, wind...If you are shooting .6" at 200 then you are there. Run your 73gr loads over a chrono and see how much velocity spread you get.
The key is to find the node that you have very little vertical dispersion AND very little variance in MV. IMO you must have both tightly grouped.
Most of the time it is easy to see the bullets make jumps in elevation and MV and then you get 2-4 rds that seem to cluster in both elevation and in MV. Take the middle of that node and work your seating depth tests.
WapitiBob: Any parallax issues with your scope, or can one dial it out? There is no known reason for unit doing well at 200 to open up that much at 4. Check for parallax.
To develop a long range load with as little vertical stringing as possible in the fewest number of shots as possible.
To find charge weight ranges to which your rifle's barrel is tolerant and indifferent. You're looking for consecutive shots that tend to have the same POI especially with vertical as a consideration. When you have identified these accuracy "nodes", shoot groups with the loads in the node to see which one shoots the best. Tweak seating if even necessary.
A load that vertically strings at long range sucks ass
There's never been a better load development method ever invented since Man came about on earth, the earth was created, and the Universe big-banged itself.
don't have a dog or a ladder in this, as I'm a short range meat hunter, but FYI.................
Have fun, but be mindful of the fact that in some instances what you know don't count near as much as what some that know it all counts fer.! There is a pecking order strictly enforced
don't have a dog or a ladder in this, as I'm a short range meat hunter, but FYI.................
Have fun, but be mindful of the fact that in some instances what you know don't count near as much as what some that know it all counts fer.! There is a pecking order strictly enforced
Best,
GWB
Howdy GDub!
After reading your post, I had a case head separation...
Ladders also help with accuracy from a powder measure as you have a couple tenths leeway on your throw. Not an issue with smaller calibers but when your throwing 70 plus grains of powder even in a BR3 it is often off a tenth or so.
I'm in the unique position,that dumb [bleep] line up for miles...just to tell me their stupid [bleep] schit. All of which I appreciate,for it's unrivaled humor.
I REALLY enjoy this stupid schit and all the hilarity.
Thanks!
SLM,
Please don't go slightin' the inherent humor of Goat [bleep].
This schit is [bleep] funny!
Ken,
Vertical is nipped by uniform velocity.
Though I do LOVE this .1gr of this and .1gr of that,[bleep] STUPIDITY.
Next it'll be a Global Warming Ladder.
Laffin'!
'man,
Harmonics is easily skewed in a multitude of ways,but inconsistency velocities...do not get consistent downrange,after having climbed a [bleep] ladder.
No matter how badly a dreamer,wishes it to be.(grin)
Hint.
spj,
Jeezus [bleep]...that schit was funny too.
WOW +P+!
'nan,
You might just be onto sumptin'...regarding atmospherics.
Harmonics is easily skewed in a multitude of ways,but inconsistency velocities...do not get consistent downrange,after having climbed a [bleep] ladder.
No matter how badly a dreamer,wishes it to be.(grin)
Hint.
My comment was in the other direction, namely, consistent velocities per se don't assure small vertical dispersion.
Harmonics is easily skewed in a multitude of ways,but inconsistency velocities...do not get consistent downrange,after having climbed a [bleep] ladder.
No matter how badly a dreamer,wishes it to be.(grin)
Hint.
My comment was in the other direction, namely, consistent velocities per se don't assure small vertical dispersion.
Yep.
Load #3 had the most consistant velocities for these shots. Only differed by 6ft/sec. Yet the group size is almost double load #2
"LONG RANGE TUNE.... Here is an interesting set of trajectory plots. No matter how carefully one loads his ammo, there are going to be small differences in muzzle velocity. Consider a load with an average muzzle velocity of 2915 fps with a muzzle velocity variation of 15 fps. Then consider this load tuned for zero vertical at 100 yards that overcomes that small difference in muzzle velocity. This same load will be out of tune by 73.23-71.50=1.73 inches of vertical at 600 yards. However if the load is tuned so that there is 12.21-11.92=0.29 inches of vertical at 100 yards (with the slower muzzle velocity hitting higher) then there would be zero vertical at 600 yards. This chart is for a 6.5mm 140 gr VLD bullet with a 0.64 BC. A similar chart or table can be made for each long range load. If you are in tune for zero vertical at 100 yards, you will not be in tune for zero vertical at 600 or 1000 yards."
"Higher velocity shots exit early while pointing lower at the target but drop less in reaching the target. Lower velocity shots exit later while pointing higher at the target but drop more in reaching the target. Counteracting combination. Good.
Higher velocity shots exit early while pointing higher at the target and drop less in reaching the target. Lower velocity shots exit later while pointing lower at the target and drop more in reaching the target. Bad additive combination. Bad. This is currently being called "Negative Compensation".
Isolating the above is the purpose of an Audette Ladder
And if you don't know if the bullets are dispersing vertically due to barrel harmonics or atmospheric changes, it's still a wild azzed guess, where I'd guess the process would include : shoot, make a guess, vary load by .5 grains. With flags you have more information with which to identify the cause, something much more quantifiable than a theoretic node.
Ah, rca and tak, all we need now is swampy for a truly memorable triumverate of stupidity. Say something about Remington; should set off his web-crawler
With your learning curve we'd be lucky to show you how to measure group size before the next election. Tip: if our two outer bullet holes aren't touching, the group size can't meaure smaller than your bullet's diameter.
200 yds is where the short br game is won or lost, and if you're shooting out to 300 that's where you should hone it in. At any distance, you have to use flags to weigh the effects of any changes you're witnessing in the poi. You can have a gun that will shoot zeros, and if you don't monitor the changes in wind direction, speed, mirage, and all the things that can happen between you and the target, you'll never know why your groups work out as they do. That's the problem I have with leaving that out of the shooting, or the load development process. It's 50% of the battle.
I also see you have no idea of what constitutes a fine long range load. 200 and 300 yards aren't long range. A little vertical at those ranges won't kill you.
When you're shooting 600 to 1200 yards and you have a load with a minute or more of vertical you have more than just wind to worry about. You have to worry about where your barrel will haphazardly throw the shot vertically AND where your piss poor wind reading skills will place the bullet horizontally
With loads that consistently print with minimal vertical dispersion at every range and solid drop data, the wind is the only issue. That's tough enough.
100 yard development works well too, but sometimes will fool you. You discovered that at long range.
Don't worry, you're firmly ensconsed with 99 and swampy in the group of "accuracy advisors we can safely ignore". Maybe a coffee klatch would be good for the three of you
Don't worry, you're firmly ensconsed with 99 and swampy in the group of "accuracy advisors we can safely ignore". Maybe a coffee klatch would be good for the three of you
Can I be on your "[bleep]" list as well? There is something quite gratifying about being called a dumbazz by a retard.
Probably good to let it die, and just mentally file it away in that roamy area that ranges between load development advice that needs a wide berth, and advice so schitt-[bleep] stupid I can't believe someone said it. The best laugh is picturing them actually employing the techniques, earnestly believing they're on the cutting edge
A consistent velocity (read that as low ES) read on your chrony only means your bullets left the barrel close to each other in speed. It does not mean they will land close to each other, in a tight group, on the target, be that 100 or 1000 yds. Yet, a tightly grouping load, be that 100 or 1000 yds, does not have to have a low ES. The proof is in the group, not from the Chrony. I'd rather having a load that groups tight at 1000 yds and has a larger than low ES than one that groups poorly and has a low ES. In other words, a low ES won't guarantee a tight group. Where as a tight group trumps all; low or high ES.
That's what Rcamuglia is trying to impart to your dumb ass mind. A tight 1000 yd group beats a "theoretic node" any day. His method allows a shooter to find the best load for LR shooting with as few components shot, saving barrel life for the fun stuff.
Don't bother replying to my post since, for the 2nd time only in my life, I've put someone, you, on my ignore list. Nothing you offer has any value since you're just a ignorant time sucker.
A consistent velocity (read that as low ES) read on your chrony only means your bullets left the barrel close to each other in speed. It does not mean they will land close to each other, in a tight group, on the target, be that 100 or 1000 yds. Yet, a tightly grouping load, be that 100 or 1000 yds, does not have to have a low ES. The proof is in the group, not from the Chrony. I'd rather having a load that groups tight at 1000 yds and has a larger than low ES than one that groups poorly and has a low ES. In other words, a low ES won't guarantee a tight group. Where as a tight group trumps all; low or high ES.
That's what Rcamuglia is trying to impart to your dumb ass mind. A tight 1000 yd group beats a "theoretic node" any day. His method allows a shooter to find the best load for LR shooting with as few components shot, saving barrel life for the fun stuff.
Don't bother replying to my post since, for the 2nd time only in my life, I've put someone, you, on my ignore list. Nothing you offer has any value since you're just a ignorant time sucker.
You have to remember this is generally only learned by punching lots of holes in paper at somewhat long distances.
I've always said ever since I got a a chrony... around 1985 or so... the proof is in the paper, not the chrony.
In fact I use the chrony a bit on an initial ladder so I have a clue where I"m at because I'm nosey. And the fact that BC combined with speed gives a clue if a load will be better or worse in the wind.
After that I usually check my final go to load so I can write that data down in case I have to tweak the load later or when I get the next barrel that I have some information to chase.
You are hard core man. You went full Retard and swung for the fence with Ignore.
I'd very much enjoy a video of you watching the National News.
Perhaps consider holding your breath and stomping your feet,as your next moves.
SquatToPee,
The only thing you shoot is your mouth and Imagination...in no particular order.
I enjoy your Whining Kchunt Act,mainly because it ain't an act.
Bless your heart.
'flave,
Her Imagination.
Like always.(grin)
'495,
You are right...the ladder is far more [bleep] stupid than that. Though in fairness,I get a kick outta dumb [bleep] doing dumb schit,then wax eloquent on all the "deep thinking" involved with their dumbfhukktitude. It's simply a compilation of boobs,who are "educated" beyond their intelligence,talking out their azzes. Funny stuff!
LR is a function of many things,none of which involve ladders,escalators or elevators. Hint.
I'll ALWAYS grab trite ES/SD,in conjunction with best speeds. If I wanna dabble harmonics,it ain't through ammo,by pulling spark plugs. Hint.
You [bleep] is a hoot!
(Addendum:because '495 is slowwwwwwwww)
Funny how paper is now "rare" and only a few can find/afford it. Laffin'!
I guess it takes all the fun outta it,if you stick with the facts I state...so you's always gonna sprinkle it with your Pretend. Not that I don't enjoy it. Hint.
Here's what I said: "I'll ALWAYS grab trite ES/SD,in conjunction with best speeds. If I wanna dabble harmonics,it ain't through ammo,by pulling spark plugs. Hint." Cypher that,then read it again,then apply same if only because it will help your game. Hint.
Ain't it funny,how one can take a load assembled of good componetry,minimal runout and apply it to barrel,after barrel,after barrel,with only a slight COAL shift to take into account throat particulars and reliably ring the bell? I don't think any of them barrels are sneakin' outta the house in the wee hours of the morning,to ride elevators,escalators or climb ladders. Just sayin'. Hint.
Currently,I don't have more than (13) barrels chambered for the same cartridge. Hint.
'Course I'm afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess and I don't get to shoot as "much" as you hard chargers do...I shoot a whole [bleep] of a lot more. Hint.
The concept of the ladder test was appealing, so I have tried it quite a bit. From what I observed, it has some value, but not in it's purest form. The prevailing thought is always look for the least vertical. I have done several ladders test at 300 yards where the vertical was minimum, yet the horizontal was horrible and could not be accounted for by the wind.
The ladder test is supposed to be all about finding a range of charges where the bullet is exiting the barrel at the same point in it's oscillations every time. The problem is barrels don't just oscillate in the vertical plane. They also oscillate in the horizontal plane, generally in an elliptical pattern, encompassing both vertical and horizontal. This is the reason I was seeing loads with great vertical but horrible horizontal dispersion that could not be attributed to the wind.
So, while I like a ladder test, I generally look for the range of charges that gives me the smallest group in both the vertical and horizontal axis. Since I have made that adjustment, the ladder test has provided me with much better results.
If you stopped to shoot paper enough, you'd know that the lowest ES does not always equivilate to the best group on paper.
And that finding the happy spot in teh barrel with a few rounds, rather than with many is much easier on the barrel.
But since ya ain't offered the other side of the ladder, guess I"ll still roll my way. But at least I don't wear blinders to other options if you'd offer em up. I may well have missed the in previous posts, but then again I like to read on a method, and not all the other so eloquent words attached to some posts that are simply fog that one has to read through to get to the meat of the subject. Especially your use of hint... come on, toss it out there bud. In english rather than ebonics.
At least I am not educated so ya can't hold that against me. But paper doesn't lie. Chrony's certainly can.
I agree with rost495. How about laying it out clear and concise, without "hints", without insults and sarcasm. Go through your routine, all of it. I know I can always learn something and am open to it; that is, if there is something to learn from you.
Just curious here If someone took a rifle and handed it to, say Harry who is a wonderful shot, and had him do the ladder test, and then had Eugene, another wonderful shot, do the ladder test, and then had Hugo, another wonderful shot, do the ladder test, all with the same rifle and load, would they all arrive at the same results? A possible way of testing this idea would be to have the targets from some ladder tests posted here, and then having several people analyze them, and see if they all arrive at the same conclusion.
Royce, sweet spots are so obvious once you learn the Audette method. There have been variations on that method and evidently we now call it the ladder test.
Regardless all you are looking for when shooting 20 - 5 shot groups in increasing powder charges, are a place where you get the snug group. BUT if you don't pay attention, one group can be a liar. I went years fighting that...
Then read once I got involved in highpower shooting how to run Creighton Audettes theory. It worked so good and for so many that have used it, that you can't ignore the theory.
Why wouldn't one like something that even if you vary the charge a bit, which can be the same as varying temps too.... still impacts inside the overall group?
RE your above question, yes it probably will show the same, BUT it could vary IMHO, due to body size, how the gun is held etc..... just like not everyone can use the same zero on a scoped gun.... look into sniper training RE that... I know my best buddy and I are off windage wise 3/4 moa... repeatably.....
But I also suspect that if you get 3 folks they won't be off much.. IE ones core spot might be 50-52 , the next 50-52, the next 49.6 to 51.4, the next 50.4 to 52.6
The very LAST thing, and I tried it that way, was to strive for the velocity I wanted, and shoot over a chrono seeking that nirvana of the lowest ES and SD. I've been SO disappointed by that method, that I can honestly say that teh BEST groups I"ve had have almost NEVER been teh lowest ES and SD.
But before someone reads that wrong, my best groups also have good ES and SD.
But I've only really put numbers of rounds down range from about 89 through about 04, and generally only about 10,000 or so a year, we avearaged around 20K a year but that was with wife shooting competition also. And we only shot out to 600 mostly but have done a fair amount at 1000, where ES and SD HAVE to be a factor due to vertical impact issues.
Now one can't take Stick lightly, hell he lives in Alaska, that has to say somehting about his brain to start with. And he makes a good living doing it and is able to enjoy the fruits of his labor. One can't argue that the man has knowledge.
I'd simply like to see whats easier or as easy, and as fast to get one on track to the right spot in teh load testing, with the least amount of effort, other than the Audette.
And one ladder, does not answer all questions... though I have a couple of hunting guns where accuracy doesn't matter nearly as much as competition guns, that I"ve run a single ladder, taken the center of the best, loaded a couple of 5 shot groups, never shot a group above about .75 moa and then loaded that and never looked back. And each time I tested it , was holding same accuracy. Which was generally closer to .5 moa most times.
rost Thanks for the time thought and experience that went into your post. With your experience, I don't think you are someone to be taken lightly, either. Even when I was shooting a lot (for me), I didn't shoot a fraction of what you shoot. I tend to be skeptical of much of what I read on here, but after reading your post I believe you know what you are talking about.
Weren't my intent to" make" anyone appear any dumber than they are...if only because they are doing just fine solo,on that "quest". Laffin'!
I'm simply afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess and for some reason,I do not feel compelled to apologize for it,so as to salve Window Lickers hurt feelers.
Hint.
Please find me mistaken,anywhere or upon anything. I'll save you some time,as it ain't happenin'.
Hint.
'lia,
I do enjoy the notion that numbers,paper and ladders is now "Tricky".
THAT is [bleep] funny!
'eth,
Can only lead 'em to water,cain't make 'em drink.
Nor would I...if I could,because this is sooooooooo much funnier.
Hint.
Royce,
Nope...which only adds to the [bleep] humor.(grin)
It'd be a riot to show up with a new rifle/mounts/glass and a host of quality componetry and let the Ladder Gang do all their "Tricky" things that only the esteemed can "understand" and gun results in the flesh. Poor dumb [bleep] would be grasping at straws and making excuses in no time flat.(grin) Hint.
I very much enjoy when these most simplistic of things get cajoled into "Rocket Science"...which it sure as [bleep] ain't.
Hilarious!
'495,
Fascinating that you feel compelled to illuminate the fact,that you are an incredibly slow "learner". Like it weren't obvious?!? Funny schit!
Again...Nirvana is a compilation of all facets working in conjunction. I'll feign my "surprise",that it took you decades to cypher that constant and glaring obvious. You'da' thunked that someone by now,woulda mentioned the fact,that there are a multitude of time tested loads that perform exceptionally in a myriad of rifles,with but modest COAL nudges geared to individual throat particulars. I know,I know...that FACT steals alotta thunder from The Smoke & Ladder Ploy. Hint.
I reckon I should roll tape and make a few more videos for you Window Lickers,if only to getcha' to the water...so you won't drink it and teach me yet another "lesson". Laffin'!
Weren't my intent to" make" anyone appear any dumber than they are...if only because they are doing just fine solo,on that "quest". Laffin'!
I'm simply afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess and for some reason,I do not feel compelled to apologize for it,so as to salve Window Lickers hurt feelers.
Hint.
Please find me mistaken,anywhere or upon anything. I'll save you some time,as it ain't happenin'.
Hint.
'lia,
I do enjoy the notion that numbers,paper and ladders is now "Tricky".
THAT is [bleep] funny!
'eth,
Can only lead 'em to water,cain't make 'em drink.
Nor would I...if I could,because this is sooooooooo much funnier.
Hint.
Royce,
Nope...which only adds to the [bleep] humor.(grin)
It'd be a riot to show up with a new rifle/mounts/glass and a host of quality componetry and let the Ladder Gang do all their "Tricky" things that only the esteemed can "understand" and gun results in the flesh. Poor dumb [bleep] would be grasping at straws and making excuses in no time flat.(grin) Hint.
I very much enjoy when these most simplistic of things get cajoled into "Rocket Science"...which it sure as [bleep] ain't.
Hilarious!
'495,
Fascinating that you feel compelled to illuminate the fact,that you are an incredibly slow "learner". Like it weren't obvious?!? Funny schit!
Again...Nirvana is a compilation of all facets working in conjunction. I'll feign my "surprise",that it took you decades to cypher that constant and glaring obvious. You'da' thunked that someone by now,woulda mentioned the fact,that there are a multitude of time tested loads that perform exceptionally in a myriad of rifles,with but modest COAL nudges geared to individual throat particulars. I know,I know...that FACT steals alotta thunder from The Smoke & Ladder Ploy. Hint.
I reckon I should roll tape and make a few more videos for you Window Lickers,if only to getcha' to the water...so you won't drink it and teach me yet another "lesson". Laffin'!
EPIC hilarity!
Hint.
No need for videos. Just print in english what your better solution is or shut the [bleep] up. Pretty simple there bud.
But in the meantime what I'm trying to get out of my ebonics dicktionary is take whatever the hell I want for powder and primer and just move the bullet in and out instead of the charge up and down? That is a ladder in and of its own.
Sure things work in conjuction, but you find a starting point that gives a decent start, and then tweak from there. I find no post that ever said different, though there may have been one.
FWIW I've no feelings for you to hurt either, simply a person that has a method thats worked for a LONG time, quickly and easily, and offering you the chance to tell us how to do it better, in language we can understand.
Or do I need to find another window to lick?
Funny, I have a feeling that we'll get more ebonics, may a video showing someone knows how to shoot(thats never been argued here at least for me, no doubt you can shoot, no doubt I can shoot too) and some more window licker quotes.
Come on give us the real thing or quit wasting time.
It's amazing to me that someone with your experience has found no value in the Audette method. It runs contrary to most things I've seen you post, after I sift through all the Deadwood-inspired insults.
I couldn't care any less about which load development process you or anyone else chooses to use, although I do prefer the guys I compete against use something other than Audette's method.
Seems to get me to the prize table early in the ceremony
Your casting is coming along nicely and you'll note how I didn't crowd the rock you were standing upon...but simply pointed to where the bottom-feeders lurked.
You're doing well Glasshoppa.(grin)
'495,
Oh my,that's ALOTTA Estrogen,given the current lunar phase. I reckon your titties are sore too? Weren't my intent to horn you up,but you incredibly [bleep] sloooowwwwwwww "learners",is always in a hurry to cram things in your mouths and azzes. Congratulations?!?
I get it,that you's at the mercy of your means,ability and comprehension,none of which is a purty picture. Tough luck there,for certain. Perhaps mention again that you "don't care" as you continue your rather impressive Hissy Fit and mebbe give thought to holding your breath and stomping your feet,so I can do a Ladder Decibel Test. Laffin'!
LONG term Stupidity ain't braggin' rights sweetheart,it's a [bleep] plight and them differences is drastic. If only for conversation. Hint.
Mebbe in another 20 years,you'll attain your first [bleep] clue?!? Nawwwwww...that ain't happenin'. Hint.
Laffin'!
I do get a kick outta you stupid [bleep] first "telling" me schit,then you's asking questions on how to connect the dots that you are unable to.
[bleep] FUNNY schit!
SquatToPee,
Great time for you to Pretend you can whip my ass. Looking forward to your next recounting of all the things you almost did,with all the wares you almost had and from all the places you've almost been. Laffin'!
Just where do you incredibly stupid [bleep] come from?!?
Wow +P+.
Hang a pic of your crossed-eyes and really knock it outta Da' Park with the profundity of your incredible ineptitude,by a trite 1000 words. Lookin' forward to them excuses.
As an aside,just how loud is your Imagination,when you shoot it?!? What are you gonna Pretend about next,or is it yet another "secret"?!?
Laffin'!
As per always,it's funnier than [bleep],when even someone as [bleep] incredibly stupid as you,KNOWS to skirt all things The Rifle and go right to Whining instead. Pretend ain't real,as you oh soooooo eloquently attest,obliviously.
You go girl!
'lia,
If pizzing up a rope is your cup of tea,rest assured I've ZERO intent to keep you from "enjoying" same.
She's cranking her Pretend up,to contend the query.
Laffin'!
SquatToPee,
I'll feign my "surprise" that reality do you no favors and you's hidin' them crossed eyes. Laffin'!
Even less "surprising",that you is goin' wayyyyyyyy 'round ALL things The Rifle and went right to Whining about your exceedingly well founded insecurities,instead.
Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
You Do Nothing Day Dreaming Dumbfhukkers are a riot.
It's your Imagination...Pretend with it however you please,as you are really doing "great".
Laffin'!
You poor poor incredibly stupid [bleep].
'flave,
The closest SquatToPee has ever been to Reloading,is puttin' bottled water in her SuperSoaker...before she ran the "gauntlet" of the escalator,in the Mall which she Ninja's.
Laffin'!
But bet the farm,them windows have done been licked.
smoke',
The only thing she shoots is her mouth and Imagination...though in no particular [bleep] order.
Bless her heart.
'Hunter,
Nawwww...the ladder is farrrrrrrrrrr more [bleep] stupid than you are able to fathom. You ain't been payin' attention. Hint.
You clueless dumbfhukkers are a hoot! 'Tis a shame,that you haven't the IQ to receive enlightenment,though "luckily" you've enough to Whine. Congratulations?!?
Shoot for the starts toots and PLEASE find me "mistaken" and I'll happily take the time to rub your nose in your own [bleep] stupidity.
Hint.
You "hard charging" Flat Landing Do Nothing Dumbfhukks are so incredibly devoid a first [bleep] clue,thatcha' really oughtta give thought to entering yourselves in The Guinness Book. It'd be the first bell you could ring. Hint.
I'm a newb at this compared to a lot of you old farts . I spent a lot of time "working up" loads (days, sometimes weeks) but after 10-12 rifles in the past couple years I'm starting to think that the barrels, bullets, powder, and primers are better than the average-joe on the trigger. Not as much witchcraft or voo-doo as I thought.
I run a pseudo-ladder. And yup, its at 100 yards , maybe 200 yards if I'm feeling daring that day. Not so much a ladder but I load one, maybe a few at the start charge and make sure I'm on paper. Record velocity. I may have some loads pre-rolled, or I make them all at the range clubhouse (my GMC in the forest). Work up to find velocity/pressure. If some loads cluster, great. If not, I'm still loading 3-5 at my chosen velocity. Rounds are loaded as long as the mag will allow (have only shot SAAMI chambers and have not hit lands with anything). Only way I can go is to seat deeper.
If the Chosen One shoots well at 100 yards, I go straight to 500 yards. 500 yards tells me everything I want to know. All this takes place in 10-15 rounds. Maybe just lucky? I don't know but out of those 10-12 rifles I only had one that wouldn't shoot ~1" at 100y, and it was a ~light 375 Ruger. It went 1.25-1.5 MOA and then I sold it for other reasons. It kicked like a mule from prone too! Another was a 760 that would shoot ~1.25 MOA but it had a freaking shotgun trigger.
Before you say 10-15 is too few compared to other methods, I counter that by saying that the average-joe will get fatigued stressing over his loads if he shoots too many. At what point are we collecting good data vs. testing shooter endurance? If you got the wrong powder, you'll see it pretty dang quick. Most guys have a velocity range they want to hit... only so many weights be in this range unless you go down to the tenth of a grain.
I'm not saying that the method I use is sufficient for BR-shooting or that I have the best loads either. They are good enough to hit 8" steel at 500 yards at my "range" in the woods. I had a 270 BAR shooting 1" and it did fine out to 500+. Good enough for me, until I sold that rifle to a buddy. He doesn't reload so I told him to get some Core-Lokts so he'd have cheap and easy ammo. That rifle shot 130gr and 150gr factory ammo into the same hole at 100y .
The last rifle was a not fussy at all. Must have something to do with the heavy barrel and plywood pressure. Good enough for me with a 4x scope. 68-72gr was basically one big hole. 73gr hit higher, and 74gr was higher yet. Went for speed and 74gr.
More from the plywood Buger. The targets above were shot with a 4x simmons .
Switched to a Leupo 6x42 for this one. Didn't shoot any better with the extra magnification but the weather wasn't the best either. At 500y the wind was giving me fits. Was not a good day for shooting at 500. Burned through 40 rounds from prone but that plywood 338 is a pussycat.
Plywood was getting evicted from the house so I put the 4x back on there. First target is 3-shots, second is the same target with 5-shots to keep it real (shooter sucks and pulled one way out there). Good enough for me with a 4x scope that was $40 I still think the shooter isn't as good as the barrel and load. I need a better trigger puller to shoot for me
I hear good thangs. Conjoin same with minimal runout,trite ES/SD and you'll be lendin' your ladder to the neighbors.
Laffin'!
'lia,
Luckily Pretend is free,for them in need. I'd not wish to slight your needs.
Laffin'!
'495,
No need to reiterate how it took you decades,to cypher page #1 of Reloading 101. Your Whine in all fairness however,really is quite good and I'll feign my "surprise" that you learned how to do that at a tender age...if only by default. Congratulations?!?
You remain at the mercy of your abilities,means and comprehension,which undoubtedly fuel your Whine. Hint.
Exceedingly GOOD [bleep] call to skirt all things The Rifle,because you were really doing "great".
Laffin'!
SquatToPee,
You is hell on closets. How many do you figure you come outta,on just an average day?
Laffin'!
4th,
I ain't more than a coupla hundred barrels into things,myself.(grin)
If the weather/Mail cooperates,a pard will have a 1-8" #3 Bartlein 23" 1/2" shanked 243AI hit the house,middle of next week. I'll ladder the [bleep] outta it at LR on video.
It'll be funnier than [bleep].(grin)
'Hunter,
Tell yourself that which you most need to hear and please continue to do so...if only because it is funnier than [bleep].
Here's another "pseudo-ladder" with a 270 Win Tikkler.
You can see all the "laddering" above the big orange! Not really... it simply boiled down to shooting until I had my velocity and then shooting the 1" orange with the Chosen One. 2-shots on the orange dot, then 3 more after moving the zero up. Nothing to it... 13-shots and done. Shot well at 500 yards but have purged the Tikklers from the house.
Not to brag or anything...but I's gots me some high zoot stuff!
Just sayin'.(grin)
Clark',
The dumbfhukkers just GOTTA believe in sumptin'. I believe this schit is soooo incredibly [bleep] easy,that it cracks me the [bleep] up...that stupid [bleep] are powerless to keep their pony in front of the cart.
You should read about it once then do it more than twice.
Sounds like you've never done it so you've an opinion based on imagination and pretend. If you ever do it, you'll understand why it'll be here forever.
You're doin' "great" and sellin' the schit outta ladders. Give or [bleep] take.
Laffin'!
SLM,
That's the trouble with these poor poor stupid [bleep],in that everything sails over their pointy heads.(grin)
Went wayyyyyyyy outta my road to use doubled 15# PowerPro braid and triple lock-stitched every through & through,if only to sound the alarm. Was frettin' that I'd have to set it on a Silver Platter atop a ladder,to get a bite.
This schit cracks me up!
4th,
Spent primers remain THE Supreme Tutorial and it's never been tough to cypher who shoots more than a smidge. Though The Slow Learnin' Chronicles are a [bleep] riot.
Went to Plan B on the mag inlet and it's Skookum. Need to wipe the bitch down,function test and bloody knuckle tighten fasteners and go right ahead on 'er.
Boxer, Those videos were also once posted by NOBODY at Snipers Hide. NOBODY was the most followed poster there, until he mysteriously left. He was technically superb, but vulgar and profane. And he was funny. I loved they way he made fun of scope ring lapping, by comparing it to lap dancing. There are so many stupid pompous individuals in the gun culture, we NEED to make fun of them. They are just dumb opinionated consumers, and they are on ego trips. They need to be brought down by some vicious trouble making smart guy.
It should be called a barrel oscillation sweet spot test.
You essentially run a bunch of loads one at each powder level down the pipe with paper at least 200 yards out and look for a cluster of bullets - and more importantly where they hit.
That's the spot the barrel will most commonly hit at.. or the sweet spot.
Now multiple bullets at different powder loads are hitting in that same spot so once you find that spot, I test powder above and below that range to see if one groups better than another and that's where I load at.
I'd heard about BC's,but were dubious. It seems after all,that they will in fact take a little wear & tear.
Thanks!
4th,
It's a Faux 54.18 MSR...in that I had it converted to Repeat.
Originally had that handle on an elder single shot 54,that only had the rear bridge grooved and no D&T for bases. Went through a coupla different schemes to arrange Scopetitude and finally opted a 27MOA cantilever offa the barrel shank's groove,flyin' a Reupold 12x.
While it was viable,the handier/dandier Faux MSR just HAD to go in that handle.(grin) So after gunning both yesterday in a brisk Northerly,I decided to make a pot of coffee and fire up the Dremel and inlet the T-Hole. The massaged OEM handle weren't horrid in it's ergo's.
Anywhoo...it [bleep] shines like no other,in the new handle. With erector and reticle,I can arrange POA/POI intersection right to the 600yd line. Musing a 50MOA base,to replace the 25MOA,if only to coax a leetle more.(grin)
"FUN" don't begin to describe it.(grin)
Will build another 54 Repeater on the other handle,prolly opting a Krieger spout,even though I cain't like 'em that much. It'll be a rattle can SUPER Sleeper,slathered with truck bed liner,solely to beat the [bleep] outta.
As an aside...did all the Window Lickers fall offa their [bleep] ladders,all I can hear is Cricketts?!?
Laffin'!
'shooter,
Odd..I was under the impression that harmonics could be totally controlled otherwise?!?
Wow +P+.
This schit is [bleep] funny!
'lia,
I enjoy your Imagination,almost as much as you do.
You're right Boxer... "fun" is a gross understatement on that rig. Beyond fun, through the roof, and over the top. Don't see how it gets any better.
I've not tickled the trigger on a 54 at range but shot a CZ453 extensively with 20x Super Chicken and 20-moa rail. Rimfires past 50-100y seems to blow people's minds and I'm surprised by how few do it. All sorts of planning, building, and laddering with centerfires. Then, only a few rounds fired every now and then. All sorts of excuses... no primers, can't find powder, too much recoil, long distance range is too far away, etc. Must not like to shoot?
A brick of 22lr, scope with lots of elevation, and some wind is a freaking blast. Add some fog from the marine layer and you're learning to shoot in the wind quick. Seems to take the myth and mystery out of it all. I've been told rimfires are for kids and 50 yards max? Funny how assumptions get made real fast, mounts and scopes are bought without thinking outside the box.
The CZ is long gone, but the 10/22 will be up to snuff for 300+ if I'm a little lucky. Went 0-moa rail on this one but that might change. Got some locals thinking about what it takes to extend their 22lr range too. They've been warned in the past and I see the wheels turning and smoke pouring out of their ears now that they are hooked on shooting at distance. They are realizing the cost/time involved with centerfires and it makes rimfires a no-brainer... for training fun. Still need to move those skills to the centerfire, but longrange rimfire is way overlooked as a tool.
The 54 takes it to a completely different level though. I need something like that to go with the semi-auto rat blaster
Seems that CZ has been listening and seeing their rimfires get tacti-fied, along with the Salvages which are really popular trainers. For ~$800, that CZ is a cool rifle but got to ask yourself if the barrel and lock-time will hang with a used 54? That's the way I'm looking at it since I'm also shopping for an ultimate 22 bolt, but budget is not sky high for the guts.
Guys are putting after-market barrels on the CZ (Liljas) but you still have the trigger/lock-time to deal with. Not sure if Lilja is the best route either, but the desire to upgrade the barrel is a hint? Been doing some research on this the past few months and the answer seems to be, "Buy a used 54." Otherwise you'll dump money in the CZ and never get to the Annie levels... unless you're not wanting that level of precision.
Been keeping an eye out for a used 54 repeater in the ~$800 area. If you see one, grab it. They are hard to miss with the bolt design. 17xx is the other option, but I don't know all the details vs. a 54. Maybe Boxer can shed some light on that. 17xx are relatively new and used ones are still $$$ though.
My ULA 22 has a #3 contour, 22" barrel, and weighs right at 7 lbs. with a 1" Leupold. It shoots really, really freaking well, and balances wonderfully for position shooting.
One could choose to go heavier, Melvin would weight the stock for balance. A benchrest stock is also available, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were many other options I'm not aware of.
The beauty of going with something like this is that you call Melvin and tell him what you wanna do, and he will build to suit. Plus, if you don't like it the rifle will sell in about 3 minutes on the classifieds.
Though an Annie is never a bad choice... those things are wicked.
So is this the party after the Ladder Lecture Series? *grin*
I seriously considered using the ladder system before. But then I got to the part that explains I have to change powder charges in .1 increments so I decided to get drunk instead.
I'm not a CZ Guy,if only because I've had/have 'em.
Which reminds me...I need to paint my [bleep] POS Hummer.(grin)
I'd not go the Faux McMillan/CZ route.If I had to CZ in 22LR,it'd be a TactiCool and I'd toss the reserve jingle into a 25MOA DIP rail and 10x Fixed [bleep]. Both barreled actions are CM and the laminate 'Cool ain't gonna compress nor puke.
If you are musing an Annie 54,simply stick to your guns and do just that...as you'll NEVER regret going Whole Hog.
Hint.
'goat,
Noone I know who's gone NULA 22LR,got one that fed for [bleep] and all parties rapidly aborted the platform.
I'd LOVE to see Kimber go Montucky in all the rimfire chamberings.
'gant,
Just simply seems to be where the folks who actually shoot...giggle about ladders.
Laffin'!
'mountain,
Sir! That is a Super Sleeper Tactical Lever Gun...for which I'm still awaitin' a coupla itty-bitty parts for.
She started in Mint condition,so were a breeze to work with.
SquatToPee,Rost',Bounty Hunter and The Gang are at a Jerry Lewis Telethon...talkin' about ladders. Here's hopin' that after their Big Weekend Trip,they feel compelled to share even more of the things beyond a Slow Learner's abilities to comprehend,then punctuate it with a nice Whine and fresh Excuses. Laffin'!
The most 54 for the least jingle is via Mark Chesebro and his 1407R Conversions,as he took the reigns from Mac. For some reason,he's slammed and they's takin' a spell.(grin)
I'd have him D&T at least (1) base hole,in synch with the DIP 25MOA 1913,to act solely as a recoil stop. Them receivers are harder than the hubs of hell and you might not be able to coax him into all (4).
Thanks for answering and keeping this a BULLY FREE ZONE! Travis
Originally Posted by Boxer
SquatToPee,Rost',Bounty Hunter and The Gang are at a Jerry Lewis Telethon...talkin' about ladders. Here's hopin' that after their Big Weekend Trip,they feel compelled to share even more of the things beyond a Slow Learner's abilities to comprehend,then punctuate it with a nice Whine and fresh Excuses. Laffin'!
So box, I'm guessing from wading through the muck contained in the box that holds your posts, that you take a powder charge that other shooters report they've had good luck with, load it and change seating depth to find accuracy.
So box, I'm guessing from wading through the muck contained in the box that holds your posts, that you take a powder charge that other shooters report they've had good luck with, load it and change seating depth to find accuracy.
I have a doctorate in primitive linguistics.
I'm guessin' he kisses the lands, finds pressure, and rocks on.
At the risk of ruining all of Boxers fun, as he does have a fair bit line out, and rods are more than bent, I think everyone needs to realise that there is more than one way to accomplish the same thing. And, as difficult as it is for most to admit, some ways are actually better than others. I know how I do my load development, and it works for me, and no, it sure as hell does not involve a ladder. I find it amazing that most actually think that they can shoot well enough, consistently enough, to tell the difference at 1 or 200 yards, between a load that has a SD of 15, from one that has a SD of 8... Some big hints dropped as to how Boxer does his load development, but reels were smoking and line was being taken out so fast, most must have missed it. He shoots a lot of rifles, and has his favorite cases. These cases, in similar rifles, are not going to be difficult to find loads for, and again, no ladders required. He very much does just kiss, find pressure, and rock on, as that is what his experience tells him to do. Here is some more info..."nodes" are predictable, for the most part...and a fella can build accurate ammo without using a target. Someone said that, pretty much, ladders were the bomb, and chrony's were useless...I would like to see one guy that can shoot well enough to tell single digit SD by group size, day in and day out, without a chronograph. That would be some Swagger S&*t right there...
That sticker strikes fear into hearts of most men, except BGG, but he may not be human. A Kool-Aid man, on fire, stepping on a wiener dog and knocking over a goldfish, is not be screwed with...
Here is some more info..."nodes" are predictable, for the most part...and a fella can build accurate ammo without using a target. Someone said that, pretty much, ladders were the bomb, and chrony's were useless...I would like to see one guy that can shoot well enough to tell single digit SD by group size, day in and day out, without a chronograph. That would be some Swagger S&*t right there...
Anyway...carry on.
R.
After you shoot long enough and use a [bleep]-ton of components, you'll discover that powder burn rates for the same powder vary lot to lot.
If you think you can load match ammo by taking a charge weight you or others have used with success, drop it in a case, stuff a bullet on top and have it shine, you definitely haven't seen it all.
Single digit SD's aren't as important as you think either. As has been mentioned before, tight long range groups trump that. The only thing a chrono is good for is giving you a starting velocity number to enter in your Ballistic program to nail down some drops. Most times that number has to be altered to make the actual drops match the output. Otherwise chrono's are a waste of time to set up for me unless I'm working with a new powder and I want to have some idea of the velocity it produces.
RC...I didn't say anything regarding powder burn rates from lot to lot...that is just common sense. What I said was, when a fella, as mentioned, has 13 or so rifles in the same chambering, all with similar barrel lengths, it isn't going to take him a whole lot of time or effort to figure out what works... Single digit SD's are as important as I think, because most times, that is exactly what delivers the tight long range groups. Based on what you have to say about chronographs, I gather you don't know really what they are for, or know how to use one, and what information it can tell you??? Again, always more than one way to do things, but if you think most accomplished shooters are not looking at SD, you would be wrong.
As some knowledgeable folks have already pointed out here, I've noticed those who talk [bleep] about the Audette method offer no reasons they think it sucks or alternatives for developing quality long range loads.
I do subscribe to the kiss, pressure, rock, theory, but I have a pre-demined velocity in mind, and rely heavily on my chronograph. When the SD settles down to single digits, I'm done.
Fair enough. Its a decent unit, and I've run it side by side with an Ohler. It does what its supposed to do. Easy to set up, and so far, its proven to be correct.
Although, I will say that some find the concept to be...well...ummm....gimmicky.
On the 3rd page of a post on 1000 yd load development, I posted 2x, the 2nd posting a detailed method I fine tuned from Rcamuglia. Saves on barrel life and components and yet results give me typical 1/2 moa or better loads.
On going on record to explain how I've changed the excellent Audette ladder load development system.
Using the different colored markers is an excellent idea. The problem i've run into with this is that depending up the distance, caliber size and quality/power of spotting/rifle scope, the shooter may not be able to see the impacts down range "while" shooing the ladder. When shooting a ladder it is necessary to see/know which shot/impact is which. In addition, if you call a bad shot, you need to know which impact is the bad shot.
A friend of mine from Albuquerque taught me a new technique; home made DirtyBird or Shoot N See targets. Targets that leave a large black impact on a light/white colored backing. I take an 8'x4' sheet of plywood or similar sheet of stiff backing material and cut it in two so I have two 4' x 4' sheets. I then buy a roll of black plastic. Mine was about 20' x 8'. I cut that down to 4' x 4' sheets which are stapled to the plywood. I then take a $.97 cent can of white spray can and spray the entire sheet of black plastic, white. Let it dry and add bright orange aim points. Select your desired distance to shoot at and let fly. With my Zeiss 15-45x spotter I can easily see 22 cal hits at 660 yds. When the bullet hits, the white paint, directly around the impact hole, chips off, exposing the black plastic, easily seen at extended distances.
Above you can easily see my LV Steel 1/2 silhouette, used as a sighter target then looking at the right 4'x4' DirtyBird target you can see my ladder; 3 shots upward, 3 shots across (accuracy node) and 2 more shot above that.
That's my target. How I bring loads to the range is new as well. We all know that BR shooters load their ammo at the range. I modify that by bring prepped and charged cases to the range and seat bullets "as necessary". Below is an MTM ammo boxes with 100 prepped and charged cases.
The first row across is my starting row; for example all are 40 gr. The 2nd row has a .2 gr increase (6.5x47Lapua) and so on and so on until the 10th row has 41.8 gr. I take small, light, handheld press to the range with me with the seating die already pre-adjusted to my desired setting depth. At the range, I fire one round at my steel target to confirm a hit and so I can adjust closer to my intended point of impact. In this case the center orange dot on the 4'x4" DirtyBird target. I then start up the ladder, seating one bullet and shooting; marking the POI on a separate sheet of paper. Even with my NF scope set at 22x I can see the hits. Once the ladder has been shot the MTM ammo box should look something like this.
This ladder showed that 40.4, 40.6 and 40.8 gr showed promise. Now, I take the next 3 unloaded, charged, cases from the 40.4, 40.6 and 40.8 gr rows and seat bullets. I shoot each 3 cartridges at individual aiming spots for 3, 3-shot groups to see which group better. I'm especially looking for zero to nil vertical spread. Once I've done that the MTM box should look like this.
At this point I'm hoping to have narrowed it down to 1 or 2 different powder charges; say 40.6 and 40.8 gr. I then want to play a bit with seating depth; loading up 3 more of the same powder charge. Once I've shot those, my MTM box looks like this.
Now I may want to play a bit more with seating depth; going in or out a bit more�.or��in the opposite direction. My box now looks like this.
At this point, it's time to pack up and go home where I don't need to pull any bullets. I might want to play a bit more with seating depth or try different primers but the majority of my Audette Ladder testing is done and all in one trip and I've only shot a max of 31 rounds; saves on components and barrel life.
Makes WAY too much sense Dave. I'm sure our resident troll from the north will come out from under his bridge and remark what an idiot you are. Before he does, I'd like to thank you for posting that.
I am still not sure how you can shoot accurately enough to tell the difference in a group size to .2 grains of powder? And the longer the distance you shoot at, it would be even more difficult to tell...
I am still not sure how you can shoot accurately enough to tell the difference in a group size to .2 grains of powder? And the longer the distance you shoot at, it would be even more difficult to tell...
R.
He's not looking specifically for group size while shooting the ladder, he is looking for vertical dispersion. Specifically LACK of dispersion, REGARDLESS of the varying powder charge.
So how much vertical dispersion does a guy get, by changing the load by .2 of a grain of powder? The method is sound in theory, but seriously flawed practically, as it is simply not precise enough, and depends solely on shooter skill for accurate results.
Makes WAY too much sense Dave. I'm sure our resident troll from the north will come out from under his bridge and remark what an idiot you are. Before he does, I'd like to thank you for posting that.
Wow. So...just for the record, you are telling me that you are a good enough shot, laying on your gut, or even off of a bench, to tell the difference between .2 of a grain in powder charge, at "long distance"??? How far is that? Do you have to dial 1 and the area code before pulling the trigger? Also, in order for this to be accurate, the "ladder" would be repeatable, on any given day with similar conditions?
Like I said...that's some Swagger type s&%t, right there...
And, I have tried it. Its a joke, and a waste of time and ammo. It simply isn't accurate enough, unless your end objective is to shoot pop cans in the gravel pit at 100 yards, and if that is the case...rock on!!!! 'Cause you're all over this s&%t!!!!
You fire the rounds at the same POA. The loads themselves sort everything else out. That's the beauty of the method.
Where I see you really don't understand is that the longer the range THE MORE apparent the differences, not the other way around. That's why they are a waste of time at 200 and a little more difficult to read at even 300
This is a bigger case, so I charged them in .5 grain increments. See how just .5 grains causes a change in velocity or exit time and affects POI on the target....?
I am very glad this method works for you. I am also very glad that you think there are zero environmental influences on your bullet over a 600 yard flight. I am impressed that you think you can fire rounds to same POI at 600 yards well enough to discern .5 grains of powder, given all of the other influences on the bullet over a 600 trip.
Without somehow accurately measuring your SD, you're guessing.
Like I said...more than one way to get there, its just that everyone wants to think that their route is the best.
Here is my method (I know this is a rerun but it seems a good place for it).
I loaded a box of 257 Weatherby ammo for a rifle I ordered but didn't have in my hands yet. Took said rifle, put it in a McMillan, screwed on a set of Talley rings and put a second hand Leupold 3.5-10x scope on it.
Fired 3 shots to get it about where I wanted on paper at 100 yards. Fired the 4th shot across the screens to get a velocity (a few would have been nicer but I was trying to work this out in as few a shots as possible). Sent the 5th shot down range at a 5" x 8" Crown Royal box. That shot come up a little short. Clicked another 1/2 MOA and punched the box at 700 yards with the 6th shot ever fired in the rifle. Killed a bear with it at 200 yards a few weeks later with the 7th shot out of the rifle.
I am still not sure how you can shoot accurately enough to tell the difference in a group size to .2 grains of powder? And the longer the distance you shoot at, it would be even more difficult to tell...
R.
Doesn.t seem like Alan had too much of a problem with putting 40.4,40.6 and 40.8g into a nice flat line at 600 yards.
Two things. Find the top end of your load. Find the node where your rifle is giving you the least amount of vertical on the target across the biggest range of powder charge.
The farther away the better. I like to shoot dual ladders at 500. 500 because I can still see the bullet holes. One in early morning and one about 2 pm. Usually good conditions early morning. Usually crap at 2 in the afternoon. Average it out. dave
If nothing else you will find the top end. I dont think 300 is far enough. 500 or 600, is better. Alans target speaks for itself. Try it for yourself. Alan only fired 31 rounds.
Of course wind has an effect. It has an effect on all development no matter which method you choose. In the case of the Audette method, wind is noted and somewhat ignored. You're looking for a series of CONSECUTIVE shots that have nearly the same POI on the horizontal plane. No vertical stringing
Most of wind's effect is L & R. Most vertical originates from barrel harmonics, velocity differences between shots
I'm afforded the luxury of having a coupla hundred barrels to reflect upon. For those reasons,amongst others,I'm routinely able to cut to the [bleep] chase directly...though often sooner.
In fairness however,I'm rather enjoying The Smoke & Ladders saga. Laffin'!
Had THE Sleeper out to 1150yds today and Ball ammo really shouldn't do,what it do. Hoping the Bartlein 243AI shows here in a few days,along with another bushed .378" bolt...but I did get a new/replacement Loomis GLX 1141-S in today's mail.
Goose Poop stole the show today(due to the wind),but the T-Hole Sillywet Annie hung tight. Could reliably cook off 308 Ball ammo on the ice at 4Mils up from it's 50yd zero,gunning MPAJ hasty rest offa da hood(no bags).
Hope to have some weather when the 243AI shows and I'll roll some tape for you stupid [bleep] to chew on...but it'll snap you and ladders both.
The most 54 for the least jingle is via Mark Chesebro and his 1407R Conversions,as he took the reigns from Mac. For some reason,he's slammed and they's takin' a spell.(grin)
I'd have him D&T at least (1) base hole,in synch with the DIP 25MOA 1913,to act solely as a recoil stop. Them receivers are harder than the hubs of hell and you might not be able to coax him into all (4).
Hint.
Hate to de-rail the Werner vs Louisville discussion but this is the freaking best info I've seen in the thread so far by a mile. Maybe the best dang thing I've read in months. Details on the conversion Boxer? 14xx coverted to 17xx bolt? Trigger?
Two things. Find the top end of your load. Find the node where your rifle is giving you the least amount of vertical on the target across the biggest range of powder charge.
The farther away the better. I like to shoot dual ladders at 500. 500 because I can still see the bullet holes. One in early morning and one about 2 pm. Usually good conditions early morning. Usually crap at 2 in the afternoon. Average it out. dave
If nothing else you will find the top end. I dont think 300 is far enough. 500 or 600, is better. Alans target speaks for itself. Try it for yourself. Alan only fired 31 rounds.
dave
Why is it all you can ever do is quote someone else?
It'll be sweet and concise...while bearing lotsa fruit,as per always.
Ain't done it much more than a couple/few hundred times and it ain't been but a few days,since the last.(grin)
4th,
The conversion is VERY Skookum,in my book.
First 50yd cluster,to establish zero,with Reupold MK4 M1 10x.
It utilizes CZ mags,modified to his mag latch and the only thing I would(did) change,is to increase the latch retention spring's ass...by swapping it out. Found that in MPAJ hasty,hittin' the deck,I could trip it unwantonly every blue moon or so. The spring swap nipped that,but I reckon some wouldn't care for the amount of retention I groove upon.(grin)
In the T-Hole McMillan,the mag rides FULLY recessed,so the original spring woulda worked better there. That being said,I've no inclination to swap back.
2-stage trigger,at mebbe 1 oz.
It ohhhhhh soooooooooo [bleep] ROCKS.
Do it.
Hint.
rosco',
SquatToPee is the best Parrot and will go FULL [bleep] Mall Ninja to boot...all obliviously,which is the best [bleep] part.(grin)
Two things. Find the top end of your load. Find the node where your rifle is giving you the least amount of vertical on the target across the biggest range of powder charge.
The farther away the better. I like to shoot dual ladders at 500. 500 because I can still see the bullet holes. One in early morning and one about 2 pm. Usually good conditions early morning. Usually crap at 2 in the afternoon. Average it out. dave
If nothing else you will find the top end. I dont think 300 is far enough. 500 or 600, is better. Alans target speaks for itself. Try it for yourself. Alan only fired 31 rounds. dave
Why is it all you can ever do is quote someone else?
Why,that bother you? Two 3 shot groups fired at 600 yards. 300 RSAUM. 210g Berger LRBT 60.4g Ramshot Hunter Norma Case. Tula Mag Primer. 2806fps. Obymeyer 1-11 twisted AMU+ at 28 inches.
This load came straight off my Creighton Audette ladder test. I dont know about you. But ill take an inch to a inch and a quarter of verticle at 600 yards all day long.
Custom Score High .300 Winchester Magnum launching 208's at 2960 developed from Se�or Audettte's unbeatable, never improved-upon super dooper Magic load finding method.
Big thanks for the info, pics, and rail tip on that Annie conversion. Blows my freaking mind, the cost/performance. Amazing, really. Great heads-up on the rail too, thanks for sharing. Saves lots of dorking and re-dorking with schit. I'm sold on Mark's conversion. I feel like a kid at Christmas and I don't even have one of those yet
Score High .264 Winchester drills 140 Berger VLD's into whatever you point it at 3250. I use a load that came from an Audette that prints 1/2 MOA at just about every range.
The DIP 25MOA 1913 rail is wayyyyyyyy overbuilt,whick makes it 'bout right in my book.(grin) They incorporate (6) set screws,which retain the exceptionally well fitting base to the receiver dovetail,for those not D&T'd from the Factory.
GOOD stuff.
(4) in the aft and (2) more fore.
Zero has yet to shift and I ain't very nice to schit.(grin)
'lia,
WOW! That must really be sumptin',to have more than (1) rifle?!?
Custom Score High .300 Winchester Magnum launching 208's at 2960 developed from Se�or Audettte's unbeatable, never improved-upon super dooper Magic load finding method.
Oh,
It has a good scope on it too.
My recently purchased donor will look similiar to this. Awesome! Specs?
The rail's interface is very snug,less ANY fasteners. The set screws are not poly-tipped and I'd take carbide or diamonds...before a softener.(grin) rifles only shoot loose,never tight. Hint.
Were I forced to speculate,I'd say he's prolly swamped,so get ready to stand in a long line. That being said,it'd be a very worthwhile wait. Good stuff sells itself.
He shoots a lot of rifles, and has his favorite cases. These cases, in similar rifles, are not going to be difficult to find loads for, and again, no ladders required. He very much does just kiss, find pressure, and rock on, as that is what his experience tells him to do.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd imagine that rifles of the same caliber were also throated the same.
Custom Score High .300 Winchester Magnum launching 208's at 2960 developed from Se�or Audettte's unbeatable, never improved-upon super dooper Magic load finding method.
Oh,
It has a good scope on it too.
My recently purchased donor will look similiar to this. Awesome! Specs?
Remington 700 blueprinted LA McMillan A-5 PTG detachable bottom metal AICS magazines Brux heavy Palma SS 1-10, 26" Score High Tactical Brake Leupold Mark 4 M5A2 Seekins 34mm low rings Picatinny rail 20 MOA Badger bolt knob Graphit black Cerecoat Epoxy bedded with aluminum pillars, floated
gun show 6-23-2012 May 1963 Rem700 ADL with Hart 7mmRM stainless painted black barrel. Shilen stainless match #3 taper barrel brownells 9-18-2012 High Tech Specialties [Bansner] stock brownells L4 VX-III 3.5-10x40mm. Matte, standard duplex, CDS, 24HCF 3-16-2013 Burris low tactical rings brownells EGW one piece base swfa Holland recoil lug and pin brownells Large grind to fit Limbsaver recoil pad brownells Vero Vellini sling V19023 amazon rear bag dog-gone-good Holland type 2x3x4" direct Uncle Mikes 1" swivels amazon Allen buttstock cheekrest shell holder pouch amazon glow tape JVCC GLW, Amazon Oct 2, 2013 one part epoxy spray paint ALUMA-HYDE II AEROSOL, O.D. GREEN brownells sharpie marks on tape for ranges 5/8 round Aluminum for pillars Enco 1/2" 6' RND ALUM ROD6061 Pine for butt plug to attach recoil pad screws for recoil pad Devcon steel putty for butt plug, pillars, and recoil lug ammo bore cleaning rifle case 7mmRemMag reamer Lathe bits
I headspace at 0.215", not the sloppy SAAMI 0.220" that your gunsmith uses, that does not fit any brass known to man. ------------------
What went into the 7mmRemMag ammo: 70 gr H4350 140 gr Nosler Ballistic tip that I moly coated.
The most 54 for the least jingle is via Mark Chesebro and his 1407R Conversions,as he took the reigns from Mac. For some reason,he's slammed and they's takin' a spell.(grin)
I'd have him D&T at least (1) base hole,in synch with the DIP 25MOA 1913,to act solely as a recoil stop. Them receivers are harder than the hubs of hell and you might not be able to coax him into all (4).
Hint.
Talked to him earlier today and he said he'd drill and tap 2 holes for use with the DIP. Gonna get in line this afternoon via email when I get home... Now I just gotta find a 10x FF mil-quad.
Just got this one back from "flave Precision" still breaking in the barrel and working up loads ,but seems like she wants to shoot....
Are you sure that's not just a stick of 3/4" rebar with a black magic marker dot on the end?
You know I tried to ? flave on his choice of barrel steel,but he mentioned something about it being proprietary along with his fluting technique, what's nice is he includes a ladder test with all rebarrels......
It is difficult to prove something does not exist, but not much trouble to know when advocacy is given by trolls.
If the ladder technique were valuable, intelligent persons would have by now come forth with data and calculations and would show how valuable it is, and that process would be repeatable.
He charges extra for a scaffold test...much more involved!
True. But the only reason we charge more is to compensate for the amount of Coors Light involved throughout the process. It takes a lot of time to get that schit done.
Just didn't want you guys to think your money would be going to labor. We're an honest company and family owned.
He is not a maroon. He is correct. Your method, and all others like it, simply has too many variables to be accurate, reliable, and repeatable. Your claim that SD doesn't matter, proves this. Its like everything else in the precision shooting world...if it worked, everyone else would be using it...
Explain to me why your 74.5 grain shot is above the 75.5 shot? Why is the 75 grain shot above the 75.5 shot? Why isn't the 77 grain shot in the same group 76,76.5 and 77.5?
When the bullet exited the muzzle, the muzzle was pointing higher on the target. This is the ENTIRE reason a shooter who has a [bleep] clue uses the Audette method; to isolate bullet exit times to the period during barrel (muzzle) movement is consistent. That means "all the [bleep] time" for those in Canada.
This node on this target is the most obvious, right-in-your-face, spelled-out-for-rookie-Audette-reading dummies node possible.
The entire area that 76, 76.5, 77, and 77.5 landed is about 2". 3 of the shots actually landed within 1" of each other. AT 600 yards.
That's what is called a "NODE"
If you were to load in the 1 grain area of 74 to 75 grains, you should expect vertical stringing like you see for those 4 shots. About 1 MOA. Unacceptable to me in a long range load
This is why you shoot an Audette.
It's possible to tune one of the loads from 74 to 75 grains to shoot well at 100 yards, but at long range, it will completely SUCK.
100 yard development can fool ya.
Here's the 75 grain load at 100 yards. At long range it had a bunch of vertical stringing....
If you had read the entire thread you would have known this. I posted a chart, link and explanation of what an Audette does and why.
Bullet exit times should be during the upward swing of the barrel, just before it peaks. The Audette isolates those preferred times by showing a bunch of consecutive shots with relatively the same POI
RC...I have tried to remain civil, and I have tried to explain that your method, has far as being precise, is flawed. I even asked some simple questions, that you haven't answered. Any twit knows that more powder equals more speed, regardless of harmonics, yet your stupid dumb ladder shows otherwise... Now you post up a bunch of charts and spew jibberish that you don't even really understand. I would also say that I know more about barrel harmonics than you can even think of, but certainly not imagine... Like I said, and that you obviously missed...if this method was the s%&t, then every precision shooter would be using it...they are not. Try and wise up, and actually have a clue about what you are trying to talk about.
Rman, I'm on nobody's team here because all I do is load zschit up until they shoot good at 500 yards and then go from there, but I think the whole idea that heavier charged rounds won't always hit higher (contrary to conventional knowledge) than more lightly charged rounds is due simply to barrel harmonics, and that's the whole idea of a "node". Lower charged rounds can hit higher on the same POA than higher charged ones for the same reason.
Like I said, no opinion either way because it looks like both ways work just fine, but that's what I've gathered from reading anyways. I could be 100% wrong, which would be okay too.
Any twit knows that more powder equals more speed, yet your stupid dumb ladder shows otherwise...
Sure more powder equals more speed, but more speed doesn't necessarily mean the shot will land higher on the target if the bullet is exiting the barrel when it happens to be pointing lower on the target due to the timing.
Originally Posted by Rman
Now you post up a bunch of charts and spew jibberish that you don't even really understand. I would also say that I know more about barrel harmonics than you can even think of, but certainly not imagine... .
My tummy hurts from laughing in your general direction.
Tuner...first of all, I thought you were on my team... Second, I'll put my faith in science, physics, intelligence, and experience. I've been doing this a long while. Its physically impossible for a faster bullet to hit lower than a slower one. Looking at Retardmuglia's target, you can work back the deflection required to space shots out like that, and it sure as hell doesn't have anything to do with barrel harmonics. His theory is very, very, sound, but is execution is more full of holes than his targets.
Any twit knows that more powder equals more speed, yet your stupid dumb ladder shows otherwise...
Sure more powder equals more speed, but more speed doesn't necessarily mean the shot will land higher on the target if the bullet is exiting the barrel when it happens to be pointing lower on the target due to the timing.
Originally Posted by Rman
Now you post up a bunch of charts and spew jibberish that you don't even really understand. I would also say that I know more about barrel harmonics than you can even think of, but certainly not imagine... .
My tummy hurts from laughing in your general direction.
Laugh it up, fella. Do you even realize how far your barrel would have to deflect to get the result you have shown?
I'm done, as I can no longer pull a gear low enough to deal with your stupidity. Please, continue to lick glass and post results...
I really like the idea of ladder tests, but I have two problems with how they are traditionally done:
1) every barrel and load is subject to some random variation in POI. Only firing 1 shot per charge weight does not adequately take into account this variation
2) wind can and does often have a vertical component in anything but perfectly flat terrain. At any distance much beyond about 200 yards this begins to impact POI
These two sources of variation can skew results and prevent them from being repeatable with a given barrel/load combination. If using a method like this, I prefer the OCW method (which I have used successfully, in addition to the traditional ladder method), as it tends to mitigate these sources of error better, but I usually find excellent results simply by kissing, mashing the pedal, and loading straight ammo.
These were all shot using the kiss/mash pedal method...
And WTF is mathman with a ruling on this deflection angle thingy..I swear the one time that guy could be useful..
The amount of bullet deflection caused by barrel angle to LOS is one part of the equation, muzzle velocity is the other. Without knowing how much velocity variation there is between different powder charges, you can't accurately determine the difference in POI caused by different barrel positions.
EDIT: BUT, assuming equal velocity, a 1" vertical deflection at 600 yards, and a 24" barrel, the muzzle would have to move roughly 0.0011", and 6" of vertical would require 0.0067"
And WTF is mathman with a ruling on this deflection angle thingy..I swear the one time that guy could be useful..
The amount of bullet deflection caused by barrel angle to LOS is one part of the equation, muzzle velocity is the other. Without knowing how much velocity variation there is between different powder charges, you can't accurately determine the difference in POI caused by different barrel positions.
EDIT: BUT, assuming equal velocity, a 1" vertical deflection at 600 yards, and a 24" barrel, the muzzle would have to move roughly 0.0011", and 6" of vertical would require 0.0067"
2) wind can and does often have a vertical component in anything but perfectly flat terrain. At any distance much beyond about 200 yards this begins to impact POI
Jordan,
Brian Litz has written about this, "Magnus Affect" and spin drift. Direction of spin has an affect (changing vertical up or down), and the crosswind can destabilize the bullet which affect vertical due to lower aerodynamics.
Jason
From wiki (don't have Litz's quotes on hand):
Magnus effect
The Magnus effect. V represents the wind, the arrow F is the resulting Magnus force towards the side of lower pressure.
Spin stabilized projectiles are affected by the Magnus effect, whereby the spin of the bullet creates a force acting either up or down, perpendicular to the sideways vector of the wind. In the simple case of horizontal wind, and a right hand (clockwise) direction of rotation, the Magnus effect induced pressure differences around the bullet cause a downward (wind from the right) or upward (wind from the left) force viewed from the point of firing to act on the projectile, affecting its point of impact.[31] The vertical deflection value tends to be small in comparison with the horizontal wind induced deflection component, but it may nevertheless be significant in winds that exceed 4 m/s (14.4 km/h or 9 mph). Magnus effect and bullet stability
The Magnus effect has a significant role in bullet stability because the Magnus force does not act upon the bullet's center of gravity, but the center of pressure affecting the yaw of the bullet. The Magnus effect will act as a destabilizing force on any bullet with a center of pressure located ahead of the center of gravity, while conversely acting as a stabilizing force on any bullet with the center of pressure located behind the center of gravity. The location of the center of pressure depends on the flow field structure, in other words, depending on whether the bullet is in supersonic, transonic or subsonic flight. What this means in practice depends on the shape and other attributes of the bullet, in any case the Magnus force greatly affects stability because it tries to "twist" the bullet along its flight path.[32][33]
Paradoxically, very-low-drag bullets due to their length have a tendency to exhibit greater Magnus destabilizing errors because they have a greater surface area to present to the oncoming air they are travelling through, thereby reducing their aerodynamic efficiency. This subtle effect is one of the reasons why a calculated Cd or BC based on shape and sectional density is of limited use.
Aerodynamic jump is what causes groups to slant when shot in varying wind conditions. Basically, when the bullet exits the muzzle into a cross wind, the bullet tries to yaw slightly to align itself with the airflow. When the bullet yaws to the side, gyroscopic action causes it to nose up or down by a small amount depending on the wind direction. This initial yaw has an effect on the trajectory, and is known as aerodynamic jump. The more severe the crosswind, the more pitch the bullet ends up with. Flying to the target at a pitch angle will result in an elevation error that �s proportional to crosswind. This is evidenced by the slant of the impact area.
RC...I have tried to remain civil, and I have tried to explain that your method, has far as being precise, is flawed. I even asked some simple questions, that you haven't answered. Any twit knows that more powder equals more speed, regardless of harmonics, yet your stupid dumb ladder shows otherwise... Now you post up a bunch of charts and spew jibberish that you don't even really understand. I would also say that I know more about barrel harmonics than you can even think of, but certainly not imagine... Like I said, and that you obviously missed...if this method was the s%&t, then every precision shooter would be using it...they are not. Try and wise up, and actually have a clue about what you are trying to talk about.
R.
You call that civil?
I don't have a dog in this fight but Rac has put up a whole lot more information than you have! We are supposed to take your word that you are some sort of expert with "I would also say that I know more about barrel harmonics than you can even think of" Really? Really? With zero evidence other than your opinion.
Every LR load, at or near max pressure, yes. But I'm not biased, I've used the ladder and OCW methods to good effect as well. The kiss and stomp the throttle method has proven equally effective and quicker/simpler for me, so that's the way I roll these days.
If the bullet is ON the lands, the only way the load will stay consistent is to shoot it clean. Fouling will change where the ogive contacts the "lands" and the throat will get filthy as well changing the entire dynamic of the load.
It may work for a hunting rifle where you're not shooting a bunch and always shoot it in the same condition.
For any other rifle, target or one you shoot a lot between cleanings, the best place for the ogive is OFF of the lands where fouling remains consistent and won't effect the load significantly during periods when cleaning is impossible.
I'll post some pictures tomorrow showing why Audettes are repeatable, why you should save them until the lot of powder you have is gone so that you can "chase the throat" to keep your rifle barrel shooting well after it is effectively worn out, and why the highest pressure load may not be the optimum
You keep leadin' 'em to water and they keep findin' reasons to not drink. Bug in the water, somebuddy stirred up the sediment, it's cold and I coodent break through the ice, I not real thirsty right now, I don't have a paper cup with me...........
I get consistent results as posted over hundreds of rounds between cleanings. I seat to square kiss each new lot of bullets. I use DBC, and in some rifles, moly, too...
I really like the idea of ladder tests, but I have two problems with how they are traditionally done:
1) every barrel and load is subject to some random variation in POI. Only firing 1 shot per charge weight does not adequately take into account this variation
2) wind can and does often have a vertical component in anything but perfectly flat terrain. At any distance much beyond about 200 yards this begins to impact POI
These two sources of variation can skew results and prevent them from being repeatable with a given barrel/load combination. If using a method like this, I prefer the OCW method (which I have used successfully, in addition to the traditional ladder method), as it tends to mitigate these sources of error better, but I usually find excellent results simply by kissing, mashing the pedal, and loading straight ammo.
Travis, regarding sending out one empty Coors Light can with each rifle completed, to prove you were not drinking beer when you crafted the rifle, I'd like to offer a suggestion.
Rather than Coors Light, attach an empty Alka Seltzer foil wrapper to the 'flave trigger tag. The Alka Seltzer will make you feel better, it tastes better than Coors Light, and you still send the message that you weren't drinking beer (even though you were, hence the Alka Seltzer) while assembling the next 'flave Pocket Rocket'!
I get consistent results as posted over hundreds of rounds between cleanings. I seat to square kiss each new lot of bullets. I use DBC, and in some rifles, moly, too...
The proof is on the target
I need a lesson on Ballistic AE's group measuring tool. Can't quite figure it out importing a picture of a group.
So, you go hundreds of rounds between cleanings and you seat bullets to "kiss" the lands?
In what condition is the bore when you have determined where the "kiss" is? Clean to bare metal, after 25 rounds, or after some other number of rounds?
I'll guarantee that each of those measurements differ due to the amount of fouling on the leade
Also, how do you account for throat/leade wear?
In as few as 100 rounds or one box of bullets, you will have some throat erosion. Your bullets seated to the square kiss will now not be. Things change quickly in the throat at first on a new barrel, then the change slows but it's always there and ongoing.
Bullets/loads seated off of the lands are more tolerant in the accuracy department to this ongoing change.
your making things to complicated for yourself. quote=rcamuglia]
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I get consistent results as posted over hundreds of rounds between cleanings. I seat to square kiss each new lot of bullets. I use DBC, and in some rifles, moly, too...
The proof is on the target
I need a lesson on Ballistic AE's group measuring tool. Can't quite figure it out importing a picture of a group.
So, you go hundreds of rounds between cleanings and you seat bullets to "kiss" the lands?
In what condition is the bore when you have determined where the "kiss" is? Clean to bare metal, after 25 rounds, or after some other number of rounds?
I'll guarantee that each of those measurements differ due to the amount of fouling on the leade
Also, how do you account for throat/leade wear?
In as few as 100 rounds or one box of bullets, you will have some throat erosion. Your bullets seated to the square kiss will now not be. Things change quickly in the throat at first on a new barrel, then the change slows but it's always there and ongoing.
Bullets/loads seated off of the lands are more tolerant in the accuracy department to this ongoing change.
Subjectivity do not interest me,I like facts and fact is...I'm afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess. Do not let that constat dishearten you clueless dumbfhukkers,on your perpetual quest to schlep Stupidity to places it's never been before.
Subjectivity do not interest me,I like facts and fact is...I'm afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess. Do not let that constat dishearten you clueless dumbfhukkers,on your perpetual quest to schlep Stupidity to places it's never been before.
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
Hint.
'Twas a serious question on my part--I'm tryin' to take the hint. You've shown how to do the "kiss" before, and clearly demonstrate the "rock on" in your posts, but I want to know the asrealasitgets version of finding pressure. Please don't have me shooting any ladders, or from ladders, or scaffolding!!! Scared of heights here
Subjectivity do not interest me,I like facts and fact is...I'm afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess. Do not let that constat dishearten you clueless dumbfhukkers,on your perpetual quest to schlep Stupidity to places it's never been before.
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
Hint.
What contour is that barrel? Whole lotta tube for a McM Hunter. Just curious....
Headed out the door,to tip over more ladders for a day.(grin)
'smoker.
The Rem Hunter(shown),will accept a #8 contour,like mosta the mainstream A-Series. #6-ish shown,in the handle you cite. The Sako Hunter,will only take a Douglas-ish #4,on the other hand.
I get consistent results as posted over hundreds of rounds between cleanings. I seat to square kiss each new lot of bullets. I use DBC, and in some rifles, moly, too...
The proof is on the target
I need a lesson on Ballistic AE's group measuring tool. Can't quite figure it out importing a picture of a group.
So, you go hundreds of rounds between cleanings and you seat bullets to "kiss" the lands?
In what condition is the bore when you have determined where the "kiss" is? Clean to bare metal, after 25 rounds, or after some other number of rounds?
I'll guarantee that each of those measurements differ due to the amount of fouling on the leade
Also, how do you account for throat/leade wear?
In as few as 100 rounds or one box of bullets, you will have some throat erosion. Your bullets seated to the square kiss will now not be. Things change quickly in the throat at first on a new barrel, then the change slows but it's always there and ongoing.
Bullets/loads seated off of the lands are more tolerant in the accuracy department to this ongoing change.
This, of course, is IME. YMMV
PM me and let me know where you're getting hung up, and I'll walk you through the process.
I kiss clean, nearly clean, or not clean, depending on where the individual barrel is at when I'm assembling the load. When accuracy degrades, I lengthen to restore the square kiss. I've noticed a trend that this typically happens in my rifles at about 20-50 thou throat erosion, which normally takes 500-800 rounds in the cartridges I shoot. This is often the case of having to chase lands after a certain amount of erosion with a load developed using the ladder or OCW method, as well, IME.
It works for me as well as the ladder/OCW methods, and is quicker and easier.
You must run some sort of "test" to find pressure and just not pull some number out of your ass like box and the other dude who makes sure he finds it by loading 11 grains over max.
I can't believe you have to ask! His posts are so concise and clear. WTF dude?
Ya see, the box is afforded the luxury of not having to guess. While us stupid [bleep] are sitting on the couch with our droolin' yaps and crossed eyes fueling our imaginations with the pics of his wares that we almost had,taken in places we almost were,he's kissin',pressurizin',and rockin'
We're stuck with getting our [bleep] off the couch and using OCW, Audettes, or groups...
These days I tend to use QL to find the expected velo at a given pressure, then load up in 0.5-1 gr increments to find the charge that gives the desired speed. Of course if I run into traditional pressure signs along the way I stop there.
These days I tend to use QL to find the expected velo at a given pressure, then load up in 0.5-1 gr increments to find the charge that gives the desired speed. Of course if I run into traditional pressure signs along the way I stop there.
So in other words you run a "ladder" of charge weight increments to find pressure.
Just like an Audette except you shoot it at 100 yards?
I'll post some pictures tomorrow showing why Audettes are repeatable, why you should save them until the lot of powder you have is gone so that you can "chase the throat" to keep your rifle barrel shooting well after it is effectively worn out, and why the highest pressure load may not be the optimum
RCA,
I'd like to see how you ensure that the Audettes are repeatable. This ain't a personal attack, just wanting to see your data especially since you mentioned it.
I'm curious because 600 yard ladder data would seem more valid if conducted with a barreled-action fixed to an immovable bench, shot in a vacuum. If you don't have the fixed rifle, and are shooting in varying wind conditions you have two extra variables besides your ladder charges (i.e. non-repeatable whole-body recoil of the rifle and unpredictable wind... both of which are not recorded for their affects on bullet path). A heavy rifle might help with repeatable rifle motion due to recoil. I don't want to beat this part to death because repeatable rifle motion during recoil is an issue at any distance.
1. We talking normally distributed data? In theory, you'd be shooting a bunch of rounds with the same charge weight. Repeat with all your other charge weights. The mean for each charge weight would then be compared to the other means. In other words, the mean positions on the target would be compared, not single shots vs single shots. Its difficult to draw conclusions with non-normal data, or single samples.
2. Curious what group size you get at 600y with your final loads (not the ladder).
3. Don't increasing velocities produce increased recoil and often times a change in POI? I agree that barrel harmonics and barrel timing are a reality, but recoil characteristics of the entire rifle are also a factor. This can skew the results if only considering harmonics and barrel time. As mentioned above, this is an issue at any distance but is an extra variable beyond the assumed result due to change in charge weight.
Since y'all are on the topic. Dissect this one for me done at 300 yards this afternoon, 308 varget 185 bergers. Gonna pick a few of these and shoot 5 shot groups at 300, which ones?
Had 24#'s of h-4350 so I shot an Audette with the 139 Scenar. Nodes noted at 43.5 grains and 44.7 grains.
These are the middle of the node. Yes, 44.7 is way up there. That's what's great about the Audette. You find accuracy nodes and pressure in the same test. Hit pressure at 45.3 grains. The slowest burning lot of H-4350 ever made
Went with the 43.5 grain load and shot it till the barrel wore out. Gunsmith scoped it after I measured the lands being .250" from Max magazine length. He said, "remember where the throat used to start? It's about 1/2" of smoothbore past that to where the lands are now"
I went back to my Audette after increasing OAL til it wouldn't shoot anymore. Tried the upper velocity node and it shot well for a bit longer.
By definition, that's repeatability.
Save your target data and refer to it when things inevitably change.
What you described is finding a load (and noting another accurate load with higher charge weight), shooting the barrel out with the lower load, then going to the higher charge. This does not prove that the laddering *method* is repeatable. You simply proved that the barrel shoots 43.5-44.8gr well.
Repeatability would mean that you run the same ladder over and over and over again, and get the same ~charge weight ("node" in your case) as your final load (result). Your ladder *test* would be "repeatable" if you ran the test multiple times and got the same results. For example, run 10 ladder tests and you get the same final charge weight as the end result.
I'm willing to dismiss the "repeatability" claim, or we can be beat this horse to death until someone provides real data that shows repeatability If its just a simple terminology slip, no problem.
Laddering is a method that places emphasis on physics (barrel harmonics and barrel time). Isn't this the backbone of the theory? This is science so where is the data to back this up? We need to see the means ("averages") for the ladder tests not single samples (i.e. not one shot for each charge weight to prove the ladder theory).
The shooter, rifle recoil characteristics, and wind are all variables. The best that you can do is run this multiple times, plot the data and see if the data is normally distributed. If so, I will take the mean measurement, but not single sample shots.
I'm willing to buy a ladder, but in this entire thread there hasn't been one shred of data or science. If you are selling... extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Easier question... how about shooting ten, 10-shot groups at 600 yards? What accuracy level can we expect from your best loads, on your best days, with your best rifles? If your 10-shot groups look anything like your ladders, there is a problem. This means that you are not repeatable as a shooting system. Shooter error, wind, or both. The variables are not controlled. Now add different charge weights to the mix. The "data" or "results" from the ladder are questionable. Or can we assume that a 10-shot group with the final load is *always* tighter than even a tight ladder test?
One could simply load 3-5 rounds once max published velocity is reached and get a good group. In fact 247's load work looks pretty good. Seems that he got accurate loads near max published data for the 185gr and Varget. The rifle shoots well and the same results could have been found with less rounds fired, no?
Neither methods are necessarily the Holy Grail though.
Need more than a shred of data and science, like this?
Originally Posted by 4th_point
Which ladder do I need for this O-dat? Werner?
I'm a newb at this compared to a lot of you old farts . I spent a lot of time "working up" loads (days, sometimes weeks) but after 10-12 rifles in the past couple years I'm starting to think that the barrels, bullets, powder, and primers are better than the average-joe on the trigger. Not as much witchcraft or voo-doo as I thought.
I run a pseudo-ladder. And yup, its at 100 yards , maybe 200 yards if I'm feeling daring that day. Not so much a ladder but I load one, maybe a few at the start charge and make sure I'm on paper. Record velocity. I may have some loads pre-rolled, or I make them all at the range clubhouse (my GMC in the forest). Work up to find velocity/pressure. If some loads cluster, great. If not, I'm still loading 3-5 at my chosen velocity. Rounds are loaded as long as the mag will allow (have only shot SAAMI chambers and have not hit lands with anything). Only way I can go is to seat deeper.
If the Chosen One shoots well at 100 yards, I go straight to 500 yards. 500 yards tells me everything I want to know. All this takes place in 10-15 rounds. Maybe just lucky? I don't know but out of those 10-12 rifles I only had one that wouldn't shoot ~1" at 100y, and it was a ~light 375 Ruger. It went 1.25-1.5 MOA and then I sold it for other reasons. It kicked like a mule from prone too! Another was a 760 that would shoot ~1.25 MOA but it had a freaking shotgun trigger.
Before you say 10-15 is too few compared to other methods, I counter that by saying that the average-joe will get fatigued stressing over his loads if he shoots too many. At what point are we collecting good data vs. testing shooter endurance? If you got the wrong powder, you'll see it pretty dang quick. Most guys have a velocity range they want to hit... only so many weights be in this range unless you go down to the tenth of a grain.
I'm not saying that the method I use is sufficient for BR-shooting or that I have the best loads either. They are good enough to hit 8" steel at 500 yards at my "range" in the woods. I had a 270 BAR shooting 1" and it did fine out to 500+. Good enough for me, until I sold that rifle to a buddy. He doesn't reload so I told him to get some Core-Lokts so he'd have cheap and easy ammo. That rifle shot 130gr and 150gr factory ammo into the same hole at 100y .
The last rifle was a not fussy at all. Must have something to do with the heavy barrel and plywood pressure. Good enough for me with a 4x scope. 68-72gr was basically one big hole. 73gr hit higher, and 74gr was higher yet. Went for speed and 74gr.
For the interested persons that really want to know does the ladder work and how, here is the best explanation of the ladder in reality AND the results in competition with methodology, targets and match results.
BTW, the gun Jason used was a 14.4 lb light gun, straight BR case and he competed and won against much heavier heavy guns.
I took a new heavy gun three days before the VA state championships ran a ladder, took the load in the middle of the node for vertical AND MV, refined seating depth the next night and then won the state championship the day after in Heavy Gun class.
So does the ladder with chrono work to develop extremely accurate loads? Hell yes, proven time and time again by the best 1k BR shooters and no self serving obnoxcious internet dipschitt naysays it, but too damn gutless to post his load development process can prove otherwise.
BTW(Pictures of "someones" reloading bench and guns does not prove schitt) so do not bother posting on something that is obviously over your feeble mind.
Yeah, but I'm not claiming to have the Holy Grail of load development. Just shoot to find velocity (pseudo ladder), load to check accuracy, then test at 500y. This and some other methods seem to get to the same place with a lot less rounds fired. Really simple methods.
Laddering uses long distances to tease-out the loads. Longer distances should show levels of accuracy better. But you also add variables due to wind. Add the fact that horizontal winds affects vertical and how do you know if the 0.1gr difference is due to charge or wind? All testing is done 400-600y. If someone wants to confirm at 100-200 yards, now they shoot even more rounds?
And I'm not saying that everyone isn't getting to the same spot. Some direct, some the scenic route, and maybe some the long way 'round. The thread is about ladders. The method has been questioned so how about some science to back up this approach?
In the end, it don't matter what method is used as long as the shooter gets the accuracy they want. But ladders are like a Holy Grail. The Grail comes up in other aspects of life, investing for example. Just because it works once, twice, or 50 times doesn't mean its the only way, the best way, or even a great way (hidden in a bunch of fluff).
I said I'd buy some ladders and ditch my simplistic method, but the validity of laddering needs to be proven with repeatability and normally distributed data. If its such a great method, you'd think this would have already been done. Maybe it has, that's why I keep asking
The fact that the Audette showed two nodes and each one produced an accurate load proves its repeatability. At the time I shot the Audette, I didn't even try the upper velocity node. I loaded the lower node and was happy with its velocity, accuracy and distinct lack of vertical at long range.
I wore the barrel out.
Two things are commonly done when accuracy fades with barrel wear; increase COAL and/or increase charge. Both are an attempt to increase pressure to match the original, accurate load had that throat wear negated.
The upper velocity node was there when the barrel was new and for a while when it was much older and worn. Repeatability.
Try this and I have when I first started shooting Audettes.
Take a rifle that you already have an accurate load derived from another method. Shoot an Audette from below the load in charge to above where you already know pressure is. See if your load is in the Audette's accuracy node. It will be.
This is what the case was with my 243 WSSM and the 70 gr BT
Since then, I go the direct route with the Audette. It does everything in one test all at once. Finds accuracy with lack of vertical for a long range load and top end pressure for your rifle/component choice
For the interested persons that really want to know does the ladder work and how, here is the best explanation of the ladder in reality AND the results in competition with methodology, targets and match results.
BTW, the gun Jason used was a 14.4 lb light gun, straight BR case and he competed and won against much heavier heavy guns.
I took a new heavy gun three days before the VA state championships ran a ladder, took the load in the middle of the node for vertical AND MV, refined seating depth the next night and then won the state championship the day after in Heavy Gun class.
So does the ladder with chrono work to develop extremely accurate loads? Hell yes, proven time and time again by the best 1k BR shooters and no self serving obnoxcious internet dipschitt naysays it, but too damn gutless to post his load development process can prove otherwise.
BTW(Pictures of "someones" reloading bench and guns does not prove schitt) so do not bother posting on something that is obviously over your feeble mind.
Love a bushed bolt on those Remingtons. They really should be SOP for all new builds.
Hate to tell you this, but your bolt handle/shifter fell off at the wrong point. Remington's are supposed to disconnect where the bolt handle contacts the bolt itself.
My 7-08 is wearing a Broughton now. I had no idea something good could from Wisconsin. Learn something new every day.
Big Green's .378's,are sloppy [bleep] as a default. C-Note were prolly my worst.
The cure done 'er proud.
Same lot of ammo,as above.
I've tried for multiple 100,000's of rounds to yerk a Big Green shifter off...but haven't yet. Fixin' to go try just that and knock over a few more ladders,here directly.(grin)
If the 308Win weren't sooooooooo awesome,I'd give a 7-08 a whirl.
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
As to Cheese Spouts,I mainly only gun Boots,Brux,Krieger and Mike Rock...with a GREAT preference to West Coast tubes,if only because I got 'em all.
Dooshmike,
I'll feign my "surprise" that the only move you can muster,is to set upon your couchbound kchunt and try to run outta skin and shoot for a 90 PSI Epidermis.
Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
'pole,
You'da been impressed last night,when I flipped my 1-9" Hart 22-250AI upside down an punched the ADL box tab to 6-48,so I could slam a Torx fastener in the bitch.
Gonna be Standard Fare from now on...[bleep] them itty-bitty phony [bleep] fasteners.
'lia,
You are doing "great",with "all" that "experience"...garnered via "all" them rifles.
Was making coffee and filling thermos bottles,then a pard arrived and declared "Hornet Day"...so he's stuffin' 33's in Virgins. I'm torn on whether to put on a Clinic while fire-forming 32's or go for the jugular with the real schit at 3400fps++.(grin) Might could Pearl Harbor him and go Winny 54 wearing a [bleep] Shilen in "K",as he'd never see THAT coming.
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
Nary a cloud in the sky,nor a breath of wind,so it's a fair to middlin' LR Fire-Form Day.
Have heard good thangs about the 7-08,but I don't like Wildcats.
Now to help the Texans,I'll mention that the first sign of AIDS will be a pounding sensation in their azzholes...as per a Public Service Announcement I heard on the radio this morning.
Also noticed that 76gr, 76.5gr, and 77.5gr shot tighter than the final load of 76.5gr in the second pic? Seems that 76-77.5gr would work? Is it common to find a 1.5gr spread that covers the node?
Thinking out loud here...
Could we say that an upper level charge (your loads seem near the top of published data for a 200gr) is producing good velocity, with good accuracy? What if a guy just ran loads up to find velocity (or pressure)? He's got a window from 76-77.5gr that you've shown to do well.
Seems like a very forgiving rifle, laddering or not!
I might have mentioned it earlier but I'm thinking that the rifles, bullets, powder, and primers are probably better than the shooters. Your rifle in the example seems very load tolerant.
I made it just in time. On the list for the next batch of 1407R (next month or two). D&T two holes in the ring for DIP rail. Mark said the donors are getting scarce so this batch might be it (...get on it Travis, there are some left).
He suggested 22". What did you go with on your rifles?
Also noticed that 76gr, 76.5gr, and 77.5gr shot tighter than the final load of 76.5gr in the second pic? Seems that 76-77.5gr would work? Is it common to find a 1.5gr spread that covers the node?
Yes it is common to find a range of charges that put the bullet at the same POI. That's the entire reason the method was developed by Creighton Audette.
The final load chosen rarely groups like the test loads that are at different charge weights. Sometimes the node in the test is tight like the one we are talking about, and sometimes it takes some experience to read the ones that are not as obvious. I look for a string of consecutive shots that land on the same horizontal plane
Originally Posted by 4th_point
Could we say that an upper level charge (your loads seem near the top of published data for a 200gr) is producing good velocity, with good accuracy? What if a guy just ran loads up to find velocity (or pressure)? He's got a window from 76-77.5gr that you've shown to do well.
Jason
With MY lot of powder, MY particular barrel, MY lot of 208 A-Max, and MY brass.
That is what an Audette IS! Most guys here are shooting a "ladder" for development and don't even know it. They're shooting it in some form or another. Groups, OCW round robin, etc. at close range. The Audette is just another form of development that simplifies the others and is shot at long range where it's easy to read the results.
You saw the guy's 308 Audette shot at 300 yards. Really tight. He has a good barrel that will shoot everything. To really hone in on the best load he needs to shoot the test at 600 yards so that the wheat can be separated from the chaff.
Powder lots vary in burn rate. You need to shoot the development every time a new lot is had. Every rifle may be different as to throat dimensions, barrel land and groove dimensions etc. My last lot of H-4350 showed pressure in the Creedmoor at 42 grains with the same bullet. The lot I have now didn't until 45 grains. This is why you can't just say, "the load for such and such is widely known to be 42 grains", load it and think it should work. It may or may not
My .17 Rem was pretty bad from the factory. Gre-Tan to the rescue!
.308's are gayer than AIDS.
[bleep] Yo Couch!
Travis
I'll remember that qoute at the Icebreaker this spring, as I pull my Surgeon .308 out of the case and stroll down the line to where you're shooting......grin!
My .17 Rem was pretty bad from the factory. Gre-Tan to the rescue!
.308's are gayer than AIDS.
[bleep] Yo Couch!
Travis
I'll remember that qoute at the Icebreaker this spring, as I pull my Surgeon .308 out of the case and stroll down the line to where you're shooting......grin!
I knew when I typed that either you or Shane would be along... grin.
I made it just in time. On the list for the next batch of 1407R (next month or two). D&T two holes in the ring for DIP rail. Mark said the donors are getting scarce so this batch might be it (...get on it Travis, there are some left).
He suggested 22". What did you go with on your rifles?
Feeling like a kid on Christmas...
Jason
Funny that you query this...today.
As I was curious what a 6.5" chop would do too.(grin)
Off to shoot zero again,clock the same lot and see WTF in general.
I made it just in time. On the list for the next batch of 1407R (next month or two). D&T two holes in the ring for DIP rail. Mark said the donors are getting scarce so this batch might be it (...get on it Travis, there are some left).
He suggested 22". What did you go with on your rifles?
Feeling like a kid on Christmas...
Jason
I spoke w/ him the other morning and he said that 22" was easier for him to work with. So thats what I went with and like you I'm feelin' like a kid at Christmas can't get here fast enough.
Mark told me the same. 22" allowed him room to work... for concentricty. Bore to crown? He said it was easier to set-up at 22" versus 19".
The batch is 15 rifles, and 7 were reserved. I'm guessing mine is #8.
Didn't want to spend the money right now, but it'll be a little awhile before they are ready. Plenty of time to collect cans, or sell plasma . Don't want to miss a chance at an Annie repeater like this .
He told me the same thing about the barrel length.
I also didn't want to spend money right now but I wasn't about to pass up on this deal.
I've already got things in the classifieds.lol.
I probably need to give him another call to make sure my name is on one, he said to send him an email when we were talking on the phone but I haven't heard back from him.
Ha I offered to send one but he said there was no need (I guess they're easy to get rid of if someone backs out), think I 'm gonna call him in the am and get a deposit headed his way as well.
It looks like your 7-08 does OK on Raccoons. Did you make slippers out of it?!?
Thanks.
Laffin'!
SLM,
308's RULE!
Shane,
308's are my favorite...especially in non chrome-lined CM bores.(grin)
'lia,
Rather "surprising" results today.
OEM 77/22 setback and punched "K",bobbed to 20",FL bedded for better Laddering. Laffin'!
Virgin R/P's,Fed GMM primers(which I [bleep] hate),'110,necks sized for concentricity and constriction. Arbitrarily bumped a "Max" Load to 12.5grs,wearing a goodly smooch and shot zero confirmation at the 100yd line.
[bleep] Rugers anyhow. Laffin'!
Cheer up,I clean the bore every 10rds. Laffin'!
You are doing "great".
Laffin'!
SquatToPee,
I'll toss you an underhand pitch.
How loud is your Imagination,when you "shoot"it?!?
Bucked 6.5" offa the eldest Annie 54...which was 25.5" to boltface,from crown. If only so SquatToPee can follow along with her Imagination and Pretend,it's now 19". Laffin'!
Anywhoo,at 25.5" as per OEM issued,it clocked 1290fps on the nose,with this lot. Losing 6.5" cost it 4.7 fps. I reckon that a fair trade in overall portability,balance,handling and the warm/fuzzy in general.(grin)
Will reshape the front,FL bed the channel to keep it from walkin' and then flog on it purty good like. Despite unscrewin' the choke,it still shot 50yd bugholes,as per it's usual.
Sooooooo...there is NO [bleep] way I'd go longer than 19" on one and the other is 18.5",if only for more conversation.
I'd order an extry mag or two outta da gate,as they ain't plug & play in OEM form and he drums 'em up tight. Hint.
Yacked at him today,myself and he mentioned that I were good for bidness. Imagine that?!?(grin) Got his wheels turnin' on another project and it's gonna SET the stage.
Yacked at him today,myself and he mentioned that I were good for bidness. Imagine that?!?(grin) Got his wheels turnin' on another project and it's gonna SET the stage.
Thought you was generous letting us catch up with our own 54 bolts now you drop a nuke from outta space? Now what? Spill the frijoles!!!
But probably just as well because I can't see shooting a ladder with a chipmunk rifle anyway
You really need to take some off the other end of the rifle ( butt end ) to keep them balanced. Ya keep this crap up every one of your "rifles" will be like those stupid looking pistol grip rifle Thingys with scopes on 'em
There's gonna be alotta broken hearts,when realization sets in and folks start wishing they would/coulda/shoulda'd a 54R. The GOOD Old Days is right [bleep] now.
I can only lead 'em to water...I cain't make 'em drink.
Hint.
'lia,
Actually a purty crisp load,given the particulars of the Virgins,lot of powder,primer temp,chamber dimensions and the like. Key in a K-Hornet Virgin Transformation(you'll wanna write this down),is headspace control and yielding fully formed cases...though in fairness,your Imagination IS rather [bleep] entertaining. Laffin'!
In fact,should you feel free to Pretend some more,I'd enjoy hearing the "particulars" on your K-Hornet(s),as I prolly really don't have that many and I'm happy to letcha' Imagine it's all "new" to me...should it bolster your creativity. Laffin'!
Really appreciate your in depth Tutorial,on popping the breech end offa SINISTER Anschutz 54 Match's chamber,as opposed to losing the Goat [bleep] iron front platform and over halfa foot of spout. That too is fascinating Pretend and copious Imagination. Especially on a shank that's grooved and timed to eek a 27MOA cantilever's inherent goodness. Laffin'!
In fact,should you feel free to Pretend some more,I'd enjoy hearing the "particulars" on your Anschutz 54 conversion(s). Use as much Imagination and Pretend as you deem requisite,to make it "real". Laffin'!
Always a treat to be regaled by someone,with your "experience" and "knowledge" and I appreciate your obliviously ratcheting up the humor quotient to Full [bleep] Tilt. Bless your heart.
Perhaps mebbe touching upon another and if only to fuel your Imagination even more. I'd say that bobbing a 700 VSSF spout 5-inches,is gonna bear a touch more fruit...than losing 5" from the breech end. Not that you'd understand barrel contours and other "Technical" tidbits like that. Laffin'!
If only in the interest of R&D,I'd mention that the recipe that shined in the 26" spout,done likewise at 21". Ain't it funny how it ACTUALLY works?!? Laffin'!
Mebbe "tell" me about crowns and bore maintenance too? Laffin'!
Here's hoping that you can muster the Imagination and Pretend requisite,to keep Reality from colliding with your Fantasy,as you do your "best". You got me on the ropes.
Hardly a "secret",that Burns is the biggest piece of Whining [bleep] schit going. She's a bottom feeding purveyor of Snake Oil and utter [bleep] cluelessness...though in no particular order.
I'll feign my "surprise",that you continually venture further and further away,from all things The Rifle. My fingers is crossed,that you're not outta Imagination or Pretend.
Bless your heart.
Laffin'!
G',
Mebbe if you hop in the golf cart,cinch the seatbelt tight,squeeze your eyes closed as tightly as you can,run a microphone to the "motor" and headphones over your pointy tinfoil hat,you'll be able to...
I would venture to say that less then 1% on here could handle a 395 standing on the ground as good as you can on a springboard. Just don't let it go to your head. Laffin!
I've seen me and am more than a touch comfy in the "odds".(grin) I'm rather at ease in sandbagging more than a bunch,so as to let the Do Nothing Day Dreaming Dumbfhukks,flaunt their Imaginations,as they practice their Pretend. Only "fair",to grant 'em that delusion.(grin)
Now as to that victim in particular,it hung out and back,running parallel to a chocked-full Feesh Crick,writhing with Salmonids. Trouble was,it HAD to go the other way,if only for compliance and to eek the goody,both. It was sourced due it's Grade(falling within a set of very specific,high browed parameters,of keen interest to the Landowner and "OK'd" by The State)...so it were sound as a nut and easy to work with. Key to dealing with something housing that much weight and length in the wrong direction,is my old friend The Dutchman. I'll happily swing stuff,that others wouldn't touch with a 100' [bleep] pole.(grin)
Sooooooo,I always wanna reach the toughest part first and have it nipped,long prior to any potential for excitement. The far corner is lonngggggg gone and double-cut for relief,by the initial Dutchman on the gunning shot and relieved yet again,on the back-cut. I wanna be a bar's thickness above the gunning shot,when I back it up and sweep past the Dutchman...so as I move to the holding wood side,it'll set and dance away from same,then swing into the lay. One of many reasons why I'm a 75CJ fan and drive both the tooth proper and it's gullet,different from most. Conjoin same,with the best powerhead on the Planet and a skookum bar and you KNOW what's gonna happen,long before it do. No different than shooting.(grin)
The canopy precluded catching the top's movement and wild arc into the lay,but the footage lends an inkling to the astute...which is why all these [bleep] Window Lickers are well beyond clueless,as a best case scenario. That despite their Imaginations and it's Pretend,working in overdrive and to the best of their "abilities". Laffin'!
Funny schit!
'lia,
'Course it's the [bleep] same,as it ain't like you went and purchased your first [bleep] clue,today at lunch. Funniest part is,tomorrow will be the [bleep] same. Laffin'!
Here I was on Pins & Needles awaiting you to wax eloquent on your K-Hornet(s),Annie54(s) and whacking 5 and 6+ inches of chamber offa your spouts...if only as starters.
If/when you pry your kchunt offa the couch,do tell,because you are really doing "great"!
I should have watched part one before asking! I don't mind [bleep] with the Dutchman but I have never done it on something that size or from a springboard. Very impressive.
I love a Dutchman and the only time I don't cut a far corner off...is if/when something hangs over the top of me. The bigger the wood,the more I become a Dutchman Slut,because once you reach that wood and remove it from the equation,you needn't ever fret it again.
One of these days,I'll revisit uploading schit and I'll blow your mind. Got some GOOD schit of swingin' a 10'++ rotten butted shell of a Spruce,wayyyyyyy 'round the hill and UP into a lay...all without a face.(grin)
THE Drive From Hell,is far and away the best footage of All [bleep] Time. Last day of the Season and a 1000'++ right of way drive,so the Road Crew had sumptin' to do all Winter. I set schit up the whole day and drove it with a 7,500 board foot or so hammer and walked away into the sunset.
INSTANT Classic.(grin)
Oooooops...I should fuel some more Imagination,so the gals can drum up even more Pretend.
Heck, I'll go ahead and help you out. Here are some synonyms (a "synonym" means words that have the same meaning as another, for you lumber jacks out there)
Synonyms for "pretend"
act, affect, allege, assume, be deceitful, be hypocritical, beguile, bluff, cheat, claim, claim falsely, counterfeit, cozen, deceive, delude, dissemble, dissimulate, dupe, fake out, feign, fish*, fool, fudge, hoodwink*, impersonate, jazz, jive, lay claim, let on, make out, malinger, masquerade, mislead, pass off, pass oneself off as, profess, purport, put on*, put up a front, sham*, shuck and jive, simulate, stonewall, sucker, whitewash
I hope you can work a few of these in somewhere before the executives tire of your show and cancel it or replace you with some worthless new host like Jimmy Fallon
I'm curious here. What's more "satisfying" for you...when you spy a Dink in a Farmer's Field and back the Golf Cart up for a poke,or when you hand someone a "proprietary" piece of [bleep] schit rifle and [bleep] 'em out of a check?
Do tell.
Laffin'!
'lia,
I'll feign my "surprise" yet again,that you widely skirted ALL things The Rifle.
What is your Imagination gonna grantcha' the Pretend to "do",next?!? As an aside,when you Imagine something,how long does it typically take for it to become "real",to you?
I'm curious here. What's more "satisfying" for you...when you spy a Dink in a Farmer's Field and back the Golf Cart up for a poke,or when you hand someone a "proprietary" piece of [bleep] schit rifle and [bleep] 'em out of a check?
Do tell.
Laffin'!
Lil Fish,
Well you pose quite the moral conundrum.
I guess I will have to go with the dink in the farmer field as I have never been one to pass on a nice buck.
Here is my latest farmer field buck, nothing like standing corn in November.
It would be remiss of me not to mention he seems a might bit bigger than anything you have posted but hey who is really counting.
How about you say something about jipjap or whatnot as that always cracks me up.
The Texas version of everything,is [bleep] hilarious!
Here's to the sanctity of the hilarity associated,of your being too [bleep] Stupid to know if you are bitching,or bragging. Fasten your helmet snugly,cinch the seatbelt tight and keep the Golf Cart on all 4's,you "hard charger" you.
Laffin'!
'Burns,
You really know how to get after it. What was that Buck's name?
Laffin'!
Good thang you had a Guide,so you didn't get lost in someone else's field,with it's challenging topography and dense vegetation. Laffin'!
Now I ain't tellin' you your business,but given the expression on your face...I'd say you was more than a touch late on blowing your Rape Whistle and you'da prolly been better off,if you stopped,dropped and rolled. Just sayin'.
Quad rails are oh sooooo "comfortable" and there's few thangs as soothin' as a Loudener.
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
Just WOW.
'nm,
Lose any more bets lately and haveta suffer CM/Blued and windage adjustable rears...for your "hard charging" "pursuits"?!?
GeeDub,how did you get ALL those firearms on the "minimum wage" you earn?
Well
1 its a proven fact that folks that have the most birthdays live the longest. At least one of the rifles in that pix date back 20 years.
2 buy low
3 sell high
4 collect early
5 pay late
6 buy cheap wine and roll your own.
and what works really good
7 marry a deaf and dumb nympho that don't mind digging worms and whose elderly father owned a liquor store, a gun shop and a boat before his tragic accident.
Burns you are not comparing like species. Sure that is a nice buck you posted. Lets see your Sitka Blacktail that compares to Boxers. Keep it real, apples to apples.
GeeDub,how did you get ALL those firearms on the "minimum wage" you earn?
Well
1 its a proven fact that folks that have the most birthdays live the longest. At least one of the rifles in that pix date back 20 years.
2 buy low
3 sell high
4 collect early
5 pay late
6 buy cheap wine and roll your own.
and what works really good
7 marry a deaf and dumb nympho that don't mind digging worms and whose elderly father owned a liquor store, a gun shop and a boat before his tragic accident.
Not really. Boxer is posting pics of beautiful Sitka blacktails. Every bit the equal of the awesome whitetail Burns posted. And to say they are "basket racks" or "dinks" is way off. Don't get me wrong, Boxer and me aren't best pals chatting on social media or anything but the Sitka bucks he's posing with are awesome and I'll give him his due.
Burns you are not comparing like species. Sure that is a nice buck you posted. Lets see your Sitka Blacktail that compares to Boxers. Keep it real, apples to apples.
Well I got this Sitka Blacktail last year. Here in Wyoming our subspecies is the Greater Sitka Blacktail.
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
WOW you are sharp as a bowling ball. Carry on.
'Creek, This thread left Reality alonnnnngggg time ago,
Not really. Boxer is posting pics of beautiful Sitka blacktails. Every bit the equal of the awesome whitetail Burns posted. And to say they are "basket racks" or "dinks" is way off. Don't get me wrong, Boxer and me aren't best pals chatting on social media or anything but the Sitka bucks he's posing with are awesome and I'll give him his due.
MM,
if a good friend like B gives ya' jazz,
would it be inappropriate to return the flavor, bein' as you're buds and all.
Sure seems to keep the thread goin' even if it's been stepped on a mite.
I'd not care to slight either your Imagination,nor it's Pretend...let alone how "real" it is to you. Laffin'!
You'll haveta' pardon my being afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess,if only to your chagrin. Keep rockin' them Serrated Haybale 'guards,because you's on fire.
Laffin'!
What next?!? A "Proprietary" knee brace Tactical Boolit Carrier?!!? Laffin'!
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
MCH,
The only constant would be that Burns would require yet another Guide...for alotta [bleep] reasons.
Laffin'!
'neth,
Purty mean of you,to try and coax her outta the field,away from the fence(s) and Guide(s).
Laffin'!
'lia,
You ALMOST said sumptin' aboutta rifle...but [bleep] KNOWED better.
This is still the funniest thing in this whole thread. I about died laughing!
Quote
'lia,
'Course it's the [bleep] same,as it ain't like you went and purchased your first [bleep] clue,today at lunch. Funniest part is,tomorrow will be the [bleep] same. Laffin'!
I got distracted by my Chese-schutz Repeater the other day. Back to ladder shopping
My thought on the 600y Audette for the 300 Win was the fact that the final load (76.5gr) didn't shoot as well as the ladder test with 1.5gr spread (76-77.5gr). How could 3-rounds with a 1.5gr spread shoot better than 3-rounds with the same charge? Variation in wind?
Doesn't the pressure and velocity increase with an extra 1.5gr of powder? Vibration and harmonics can't be the same. Add the fact that 77gr is above the other three-shots.
I can't criticize this one too much because the load, rifle, shooter, etc. all came together for 0.5 MOA so its tough to argue with the final results. But, it seems that there are variables that aren't quite controlled. A larger sample size with each charge weight would give better data. But this means more shooting.
And we haven't discussed the Ring of Pressure yet
Jason
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
I also guess I have to point out that I knew where the load was gonna be in the above ladder in only 10 shots down the bore of a brand new rifle
These 3 shots confirmed it pretty much and ran the grand total of shots fired to 13
I think the ladder below explains my thoughts a little better. The 7-shot group from the Final load isn't much better than the Ladder test with loads #2-7 (45.6 - 47.1gr...assuming 0.3gr steps in the ladder?). If my guess is correct, this is another 1.5gr span... with the pressure/vibration/harmonic differences that go with it.
And its not just windage, as ladder users ignore it (but wind can affect vertical!). There is considerable elevation with the 7-shot Final load. Based on the data, I can't tell if the POI differences in the ladder are due to charge weight or shooter/rifle/environmental variables since the final load with a single charge weight looks very similar. The rifle, for example, could have mechanical issues which are causing the change in POI, along with charge weight steps.
My argument has been that we need normally distributed data, and that requires more shooting so we analyze mean data, not single samples for each charge. Then we can see if the Ladder method is repeatable by finding the same Final load by comparing several Ladder tests against each other. And we ensure that the other variables are in check.
Jason
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Ladder...
Group with the load in the "node" at 330 yards. LOL
When a load is in tune, the muzzle is on the upward swing. All bullets will exit the bore before it reaches the peak or at the peak.
Stay with me
All ammo will have velocity variations no matter how carefully you load it. The higher velocity shots exit earlier in time while the barrel is on the upward swing but it pointing lower at the target. These higher velocity shots drop less.
The lower velocity shots take fractions of milliseconds more to leave the muzzle. The barrel has swung more upwardly toward the peak of its path and is therefore pointing higher on the target. These shots have lower velocity and therefore drop more impacting lower.
The combo is a good additive combo where the muzzle movement counteracts changes in velocity from shot to shot
The Audette finds the best velocity and harmonic node
I will read the info in more detail later. For now, I will say that your info from Al is in regards to barrel time. I don't dispute it. Its physics.
What is missing is whole body motion of the rifle under recoil. You can have a faster load with a higher POI due to the greater recoil (mo' motions of rifle), barrel time or not. Very common with handguns where heavy bullets hit at the same point as lighter bullets. Longer barrel time with the 300gr vs. 240gr. but the overall recoil of the firearm points the barrel higher on the heavies. Have seen this with rifles too.
And barrel harmonics happen mucho fast. It rings like a bell once the primer goes off. In other words, before the bullet even gets anywhere near the muzzle.
Al is a varminter, and his findings *might* be geared towards light recoil, low weight bullets. I'd be happy to discuss in more detail, but give me a chance to review.
Back to my question on the "vertical" of your 7-shot group of your Final load looking similar to your ladder with 1.5gr spread (45.6 - 47.1gr). I'd expect this Final load to be tighter, especially at 330 yards. But, its got similar vertical to your ladder with loads that span 1.5gr? This don't make sense or sell the ladder very well. You impressed with the 600 yard shooting. What happened at 330 yards?
And I'm ignoring horizontal because Ladder-ers ignore it, even though it affects vertical.
I know you were being generous with the hypotenuse, but vertical is better for this discussion. It'll be less. Now, if you are generous enough to give me the Ladder loads #2,#3,#4,#5 against your 7-shot Final load, it looks like the Ladder shot better (vertical), no? How can the Chosen One shoot less good than the Ladder with gross charge weight variations (0.3gr is 'mo worse than measurement error in your scale/thrower)?
We can go round and round, but Extra-Ordinary Claims require Extra-Ordinary Proof.
Varmint Al is an engineer who loves to shoot rifles. He also love to run very complex tests and experiments with rifles, and accurately measure the findings with computer programs most have no access to.
He didn't invent the Audette and his name has nothing to do with his former occupation.
Read more, assume less.
Quote
What happens to the stress wave in a real rifle barrel? Just like in the TV tower guy wire, if a stress wave reaches a mechanical discontinuity in the object it is traveling in, such as the muzzle end of the barrel, or the solidly bedded receiver end of the barrel, it will reflect back in the opposite direction. In steel, the speed of sound is very close to 0.227 inches per microsecond, or about 18916 FPS. A wave will travel from the receiver to the muzzle in the barrel in about 0.12 mS. It can make around 4 or 5 round trips before the bullet leaves. Note that it does not matter how heavy the barrel is, or the profile, as the wave travels at almost exactly the same speed in all cases.
Quote
If we assume an 0.85 ms barrel time - in the first metal the sound wave would travel up and down the barrel 8.42 times before the bullet leaves the barrel. In the second barrel material it would do 8.20 trips.
The great thing about the Audette Ladder is that you don't have to think about all of this crap. You just shoot one, look at the target and it tells you what you really need to know.
Back to my question on the "vertical" of your 7-shot group of your Final load looking similar to your ladder with 1.5gr spread (45.6 - 47.1gr). I'd expect this Final load to be tighter, especially at 330 yards. But, its got similar vertical to your ladder with loads that span 1.5gr? This don't make sense or sell the ladder very well. You impressed with the 600 yard shooting. What happened at 330 yards?
And I'm ignoring horizontal because Ladder-ers ignore it, even though it affects vertical.
I know you were being generous with the hypotenuse, but vertical is better for this discussion. It'll be less. Now, if you are generous enough to give me the Ladder loads #2,#3,#4,#5 against your 7-shot Final load, it looks like the Ladder shot better (vertical), no? How can the Chosen One shoot less good than the Ladder with gross charge weight variations (0.3gr is 'mo worse than measurement error in your scale/thrower)?
We can go round and round, but Extra-Ordinary Claims require Extra-Ordinary Proof.
Trying different loads with heavy bullets in a short barreled Revolver such as a Smith and Wesson Chief or a Colts Detective Special at short distances, lower speed bullets may sometimes hit the target higher. This effect is real. At close ranges slower bullets will hit higher on target than a faster same mass bullet. This happens, because the slower bullet spends more time in the barrel, while the gun rotates about its mass center, thus leaving the muzzle at a higher departure angle. However, since, for rifles the bore line change is usually small and faster, bullets fly in flatter trajectory, there will be a point at that bullet trajectories will cross, thus giving the same impact point on a target. If the target was closer to the muzzle than that o tfhe trajectory cross, the slower bullet would impact higher than the faster bullet. At all distances beyond that cross, faster bullet would be higher than slower ones. In short, if we shoot at a far enough target, the two effects: recoil induced barrel up rotation + flight time to the target, combine such, if the rifle barrel was infinitely stiff, not to bend or vibrate, for bullets fired at the same aim point, the target impact elevation points would increasingly depend only on muzzle velocity. Higher velocity bullets would strike the target higher than lower velocity bullets. If the powder charge weights are in the normal range for that cartridge and bullet mass, then the muzzle velocity will also increase with powder mass.
I try to avoid qualifications and occupations in the discussions relating to my hobbies, but I test schit for a living as an engineer. If I [bleep]-up it costs my company big bucks. And my boss is on my ass, along with the VP and Pres. Yesterday I was asked to be an ISO auditor for my company. More of a pain in the ass than anything (my time traveling to our sites around the globe) but I don't [bleep] around when it comes to testing and data. That might be why I was asked to be an auditor? In another life I published peer reviewed papers on testing but that ain't nothing.
We need to get Al involved because Virtual Test ain't always the same as real-life. Would love to say all FEA is done right but that ain't the case. And Virtual Test requires assumptions. You have certain conditions that are unknown, so you "assume". Have run FEA tests my-own-self and know the limitations. The ball busting that goes between Virtual and Test (real physical testing) is epic. Sometimes the data jive, other times not so much. Just because FEA is run don't mean much. But I will "assume" Al knows his stuff.
But you know what? I ain't above anyone. I've dug holes for a living, drove truck, worked a dock in AK, and dorked with construction. My experience and jargon ain't needed to ask for more "proof".
I know there is always a better mouse-trap, and I'm willing to buy a Ladder, but I want data and scientific testing to prove it as I have a low tolerance for myth and superstition without any data to back it up . I tried contacting Loubser for a "real" test of the ladder method, but apparently he has moved on. Might try Litz to see if any real validation has been done.
And Rick, I ain't trying to pick on you, seriously. But if we continue down this path you're gonna need to start providing some scientific proof of the method. I've done my stint as a researcher/engineer and have done my due-diligence. There ain't ANY truly scientific study done on laddering. I'm willing to eat my words here publicly so I hope you to prove me wrong. But NOT with anecdotal stories, or theory. I want real proof.
Jason
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Varmint Al is an engineer who loves to shoot rifles. He also love to run very complex tests and experiments with rifles, and accurately measure the findings with computer programs most have no access to.
He didn't invent the Audette and his name has nothing to do with his former occupation.
Read more, assume less.
Quote
What happens to the stress wave in a real rifle barrel? Just like in the TV tower guy wire, if a stress wave reaches a mechanical discontinuity in the object it is traveling in, such as the muzzle end of the barrel, or the solidly bedded receiver end of the barrel, it will reflect back in the opposite direction. In steel, the speed of sound is very close to 0.227 inches per microsecond, or about 18916 FPS. A wave will travel from the receiver to the muzzle in the barrel in about 0.12 mS. It can make around 4 or 5 round trips before the bullet leaves. Note that it does not matter how heavy the barrel is, or the profile, as the wave travels at almost exactly the same speed in all cases.
Quote
If we assume an 0.85 ms barrel time - in the first metal the sound wave would travel up and down the barrel 8.42 times before the bullet leaves the barrel. In the second barrel material it would do 8.20 trips.
The great thing about the Audette Ladder is that you don't have to think about all of this crap. You just shoot one, look at the target and it tells you what you really need to know.
I'm done trying to convince anybody about the Audette. I'm tired.
Try one or more and convince yourself.
Or, use any other method you'd like as many do.
Rick,
WTF? I just closed the bail, tightened the drag and now you off? Musta tied a barbless...
Just kidding.
I've held back my belief that the ladder method has some merit. And your posts have made me think of some changes to the way I work up a load. Thanks for that.
But anecdotal don't equal scientific validation. The way the ladder has been presented has been a problem, not you or anyone else. If I proposed a Ladder-like method at work I'd get laughed outta a job. I ain't kidding, seriously. But I think laddering can be used to good benefit with some tweaks. Like I said before... we may all end up in the same place. Some direct, some scenic, some the long way 'round. But the important part is that everyone gets to the destination.
I hope our different views don't affect future conversations on rifles and shooting as I've enjoyed this discussion. I can't shoot 600y groups like you've posted. And I have no doubt that you have a system that works for you. But when it comes to proving a system/method we need tighter control on variables. Still, I got some ladder ideas I want to try.
This schit is better than a Jerry Lewis Telethon and you poor [bleep] is TRYING your best!
Just Wow +P+!
The Mail done nice thangs today...and after nipping the Anschutz 54 Chronicles tidily,it were time to shift gears. Pun be intended,despite it sailing over all the pointy heads.
She's a [bleep] PEACH. Tweaked the trigger somewhat and I reckon once some of the extry paint wears away...it'll get even better.(grin)
Stumbled onto a couple/few thousand 120's I forgot I had and will keep it "fair",for a spell. Or until tomorrow.(grin)
Laffin'!
'lia,
You try to "tell" folks lotsa schit...but it boils down to your perpetually being in welllllll over your pointy head and tinfoil hat,which do of course bolster the [bleep] humor quotient. Congratulations?!? Fact is,you're doing "great" and I reckon The Paper Hat brigade is plum "proud" to have you and your ladder aboard.
Laffin'!
Weren't but a Post or two ago,that you was gonna take all your marbles and go home,yetcha' remain powerless in the refrain of reiterating what an incredibly slowwwwwwwwww "learner" you are.
Hell...in but justa' 'nother coupla' decades,you and poor poor stupid [bleep] Rost',just might be able to sneak up on your first glass of water. I look forward to those pics and the rollicking verbage,that'll accompany that "highlight" of your collective "prowess".
Don't think I ain't rootin' for you gals,as you set the "bar".
Laffin'!
Wow +P+!!!
G',
Kudos on the windage adjustable rears,cocked striker,rubber snubber covers and compelling plagiarism.
What next??!?? You gonna go Double Burns and fly Tactical Knee Brace Shellholders on both sides of your stock?!?
Add serrations,for the "win".
Laffin'!
You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot and the texas version of everything...remains [bleep] hilarious!
Varmint Al is an engineer who loves to shoot rifles. He also love to run very complex tests and experiments with rifles, and accurately measure the findings with computer programs most have no access to.
He didn't invent the Audette and his name has nothing to do with his former occupation.
Read more, assume less.
Quote
What happens to the stress wave in a real rifle barrel? Just like in the TV tower guy wire, if a stress wave reaches a mechanical discontinuity in the object it is traveling in, such as the muzzle end of the barrel, or the solidly bedded receiver end of the barrel, it will reflect back in the opposite direction. In steel, the speed of sound is very close to 0.227 inches per microsecond, or about 18916 FPS. A wave will travel from the receiver to the muzzle in the barrel in about 0.12 mS. It can make around 4 or 5 round trips before the bullet leaves. Note that it does not matter how heavy the barrel is, or the profile, as the wave travels at almost exactly the same speed in all cases.
Quote
If we assume an 0.85 ms barrel time - in the first metal the sound wave would travel up and down the barrel 8.42 times before the bullet leaves the barrel. In the second barrel material it would do 8.20 trips.
The great thing about the Audette Ladder is that you don't have to think about all of this crap. You just shoot one, look at the target and it tells you what you really need to know.
I believe FEA was like a $20,000 computer program!
There once was this bar with a sign in its window. It read, anyone who can make my horse laugh will have all the drinks they want on the house. So this Texican walks in and asks if he can give it a try. The bartender says sure.
The Texican walks out there and whispers something in the horse�s ear. The horse starts laughing hysterically. The guys walks in and the bartender gives him the drinks. The next night the same guy and the same thing happens.
The third night the sign is changed to making the horse cry. The guy takes the horse and goes out side and a few minutes later he comes back in and the horse is crying.
The bartender says �o.k. you can have your drinks but first tell me what you did to make my horse laugh.�
The Texican said, �I told him my dick was bigger than his.�
This is what they did to work up loads for Olympic rifles developed by some shore nuff rocket scientists! Then again, they were stupid enough to take pictures as the bullets exited the muzzle, what were they thinking?????
Also used the same method to develop loads for the 17 HMR! Loads were too hot for SAAMI specks, had to wait till little gun came around to put it all together.
Rocket scientists would just laff their azz off at ladders! Hell, they even set some world records in Registered matches with the National benchrest shooter's Ass'n with moving backers!
Light for caliber/Heavy for caliber:
"Kiss,find pressure, and rock on"
I played with the "ladder" in the late 70's, it was mental masturbation then, it is a total goat rop'en now.
Just got done flogging on my eldest Annie 54,in it's final guise. Had (3) different scopes on it,between yesterday and today,as well as (2) stocks. In fairness...I hate wood handles more than [bleep] ever.(grin)
The 27MOA cantilever,was almost too much of a good thang. The M8 12X Reupold wouldn't zero at 50yds,nor would any of my T-16's. BKL don't make the same setup in 30mm,or I'd be ALL over tossing a 10X Fixed [bleep] in the saddle. Long story short,I went Sleeper Mode and dumped a 6x42 A/O atop it and it zero'd at 50yds,1.5MOA offa the bottom of it's adjustment range...so will reach the 400yd line on the erector. Not horrid,all thangs considered.
I was pretending to shoot more 1/4" groups with the Creedmoor. 2950 is what works in Ballistic AE for drops. I actually chrono'd it today and I wasn't Imagining it.
Also shot some Ramshot Hunter through the Lightweight Creedmoor to check it out. Velocity was good with the 140 A-Max up at 2850 on the top end. Accuracy was at 2645 though.
Stick, You sortin ammo for the chesebro? If so, weight, rim thickness or both? Any change in accuracy after the barrelectomy? A write up on your experience with those 2 rifles would be appreciated by quite a few folks I would suspect...
I'm done trying to convince anybody about the Audette. I'm tired.
Try one or more and convince yourself.
Or, use any other method you'd like as many do.
Yeap he was done at this time , because he was in another thread talking [bleep] how .22 ammo was too cheap and the manufactures should raise prices till they didn't sell any more .
I sorted by rim thickness for a spell,as well as weight...then said "[bleep] it" and been gunning it Camp Run ever since. That less any regret. Just happen to have stumbled upon a rather exceptional Lot of Bulk Fodder and that is a nice "problem" to have.(grin)
Saw where you were asking questions on RFC and I was laughing to myself. I'd not [bleep] linger and would cut to the [bleep] chase. Hint.(grin)
They are simply [bleep] WICKED good and I don't mean maybe. There's gonna be a fair number of broken hearts,when the dust settles and them on the fence drop the ball.
Haven't had the weather to really stretch it out,to see how it holds up,way out on the erector. At the 50yd line,it'll still stacking 'em in there...to the tune of everybody is wanting an Annie 54 in these parts.(grin)
The FUN really starts at 300yds++ and it's a riot.The MilQuad reticle is a big hit and makes chasing wind a cinch. A 25MOA DIP rail,conjoined with Burris Signature Z's,would let a guy get to the 700yd line on a 10x Fixed [bleep] with both reticle and erector in unison. I can get to 600 now and would like to have more.
I need to upload some Annie 54/MilQuad video,while using the LCD to aim with. [bleep] UNREAL what the little bastard will do.
Good schit sells itself,which is why of course...there sure as [bleep] ain't no run on ladders.
Mark is gonna be pissed with all this extra work you're sending his way. He's already busy with comp & varmint orders, not to mention these silly rimfires
This is what they did to work up loads for Olympic rifles developed by some shore nuff rocket scientists! Then again, they were stupid enough to take pictures as the bullets exited the muzzle, what were they thinking?????
Also used the same method to develop loads for the 17 HMR! Loads were too hot for SAAMI specks, had to wait till little gun came around to put it all together.
Rocket scientists would just laff their azz off at ladders! Hell, they even set some world records in Registered matches with the National benchrest shooter's Ass'n with moving backers!
Light for caliber/Heavy for caliber:
"Kiss,find pressure, and rock on"
I played with the "ladder" in the late 70's, it was mental masturbation then, it is a total goat rop'en now.
"Alignment" will not be mentioned.
Let's enlighten the village idiots on LONG RANGE load development, which was the subject before being hijacked by "look at me and my guns".. "Moving backers" is ONLY for shortrange BR where you shoot no more than 300 yards (that sure the hell is not long range), dump powder from a measure and shoot. So kiss the lands, find pressure and shoot works there.
However, the Forum is LONG RANGE and topic is not "Look at me and my guns". Try that at a Long range match and you will have your ass handed to you real fast. Seen the short range guys try and it was a laugh, they went home real humble. Plus those are not olympic rifles anyway and the real LR olympic shooters sure as hell do not load develop like that as many times the guns shoot the best way off the lands.
So seems the so called real rocket scientests are in reality only shooting "pop bottle rockets"!
Unfortunately you cna't have a civil discussion with someone who has the idea that LR shooting is one shot at a large target, IE deer or bear at what mostly isn't even considered long range in the real world.
I do come back to amuse myself with the posts... how the hell how someone can run a chainsaw has ANYTHING to do with shooting is BEYOND me.
Bounty, thanks for a clear post. One of the few in this thread.
That doesn't take anything away from letting folks do it how they want to, but when they take over a thread like a juvenile child and whine and cry it sure gets old. And runs off folks that would actually like to read and understand options on how to get from point A to point B.
[/quote] And runs off folks that would actually like to read and understand options on how to get from point A to point B. [/quote]
I couldn't agree more. Long range in the country I mostly hunt is limited to around 800 - 1000 yards. Not long range by some standards and nearing OMG range for others. Picking through inane commentary to actually find some information is frustrating at the least. Yet, I keep coming back to watch the train wreck hoping someone comes in and posts information applicable to the OP
You Whining Kchunt...you ALMOST said something about The Rifle,but went right to Whining instead. Congratulations?!?
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
Perhaps consider holding your breath and stomping your itty-bitty feet,during your next Whine and fresh batch of Excuses?!? I musta missed it,where you quantified just how loud your Imagination was,when you "shoot" it?!? Do tell! Laffin'!
Cheer up,I prolly shoot more than one chambering,in more than one barrel length and in more than one contour. I know that ain't "fair",but you'll haveta pardon my being afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess...while a guess is the "best" you can do.
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
Hint.
rost',
I enjoy that your Stupidity isn't an Act. Congratulations?!?
Why is it,that you feel compelled in the need to reiterate what an incredibly slow [bleep] "learner" you are? Sweetheart...that ain't ever been a "secret". Laffin'! Knock it outta da Park and dangle a picture of you and your crossed-eyes in their full "splendor",if only to connect the dots on how/why it takes you decades to "learn" how incredibly little you "know". Dare ya' and I'm looking forward to them Excuses in particular. You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot! Re-laffin'!
Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always going to be better served by asking questions,instead of giving "answers". Hint.
Again,VERY good [bleep] call to refrain ALL things The Rifle and go right to your Vagina Monologue instead. Ain't it an intellesting Dichotomy,that even someone as [bleep] incredibly Stupid as you,knows better?!?
You're doing "great". Hint.
Laffin'!
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
'bear,
You's at the mercy of your means,ability and comprehension,which is undoubtedly very unfair disadvantages. Laffin'!
Funniest part is,you poor stupid [bleep],is that you've been led to water.
You are a CLUELESS dismal [bleep] and I mean WOW +P+! But in total fairness...your incredible [bleep] Stupidity,is in fact a riot. Congratulations?!? Knock it outta da Park,connect all the dots and dangle a pic of you and your Paper Hat,so as to really set the bar for The Paper Hat Brigade and their "lofty" "standards". Laffin'!
I get a kick outta the notion,that if you schlep your [bleep] Stupidity elsewhere,that you's under the impression it ain't [bleep] Stupidity any longer! Now THAT is some seriously [bleep] funny schit! Perhaps you should rally for an Imagination And Pretend category,for you to ply your "prowess" in?!? Laffin'!
The only Technical Discussion you've mustered,is to repeatedly beat the drum,expounding upon how incredibly little you "know" and how painfully long it took you to not know it. In fairness however,the Texas Version of everything IS [bleep] hilarious!
Your best connect percentages,are always going to be to shut the [bleep] up,take notes and apply same. Hint. Humor Points awarded in advance,for you being to [bleep] Stupid,to even manage that. Laffin'!
Dangle just one recent picture of your crossed-eyes and High Zoot Custom Rifle(s)...it'll be funnier than [bleep]!
You KNOW it's gonna get GOOD,when The Paper Hat Brigade starts their "we" schit. That's the Secret Squirrel Society silent dog whistle summons,for Emergency back up,for ALL Window Lickers to unite! Laffin'!
I'll keep it a little more "fair"...so she can mebbe muster the courage requisite,to dangle a pic of her crossed-eyes.(grin)
You're method is a ladder, whether you will say so or not.
Finding pressure involves shooting a few rounds of graduated charges till you get an ejector mark or sticky bolt. Then you back off a little.
Now I know that's just too concise and cordial to say for a guy like you, but it would help a lot of the guys reading this who really are interested in options that "seem" to work for some.
If the best accuracy in every rifle is at that point, it's news to me. I typically find accuracy at a couple of places in a ladder
See, the OP's question was "why use the ladder to develop a long range load". I've answered the question with why it works, why I think it's best, how I've improved the Audette, and posted several tests with the resulting loads to reinforce my position and help someone with finding an accurate long range load.
Your "posts" on the other hand are 99.9% gobbledygook insults and .1% help for a someone reading this.
That's to say nothing about your incredibly nasty responses to posters who have been nothing but cordial and mature like rost495 in their questions to you or their posts that don't even reference you. Some guys have even asked you for your input in earnest and you respond to them like they've just called you a dick.
Now I'm a touch curious. Hang a pic of yourself,as I'd like to get a reading on how big your ears are...in order to heed the summons of the highly esteemed Silent Pooch Whistle. Laffin'!
PLEASE feel free to label any/all things however you like,especially if they assist your Pretend. If/when your Smoke & Ladder Show gets your Creed' barking somewhere close to how my Ruger 77/22 K-Hornet shoots,I'll whoop out the formed cases and 32 V-Max,if only to again set the bar for your aspirations. Laffin'!
You've talked out your ass in regards to Myths,Wives Tales and Fabrications,cemented due your incredible lack of intellect and trigger time. I mean,you are REALLY doing "great". Laffin'!
Folks with an inkling,have already sourced what I've penned upon this subject and numerous others and are not surprisingly connectin' them dots reliably and basking in the spoils that fruit reliably garners. Hint. That ain't to say the Clueless Window Lickers,do not remain here in their Tin foil Hats and that of course is THE funniest [bleep] part. Re-hint.
Mebbe give thought to filling out a Hurt Feelers Report,as it might bolster your Imagination and it's Pretend,even a smidge more?!? I can only lead you stupid [bleep] to water and wouldn't make you drink,even if I could. Laffin'!
Now...let's see them ears,as I'd wager they are spectacular! Looking forward to your next Whine and another batch of Excuses.
Scott�s article also reveals some interesting technical points: �One thing that IS important is that the bullet be precisely seated against the lands. T.J. Jackson reported this fact in the May 1987 issue of Precision Shooting. In a letter to the Editor, T.J. wrote, ��in all our testing in that Houston warehouse� and the dozens and dozens of groups that Virgil King shot in there �in the zeroes�� he NEVER fired a single official screamer group when he was �jumping� bullets. All his best groups were always seated into the lands, or at the very least� touching the lands. Virgil said his practice was to seat the bullets so the engraving was half as long as the width of the lands. He noticed an interesting phenomenon with rifles that could really shoot: if the bullets were seated a little short and the powder charge was a bit on the light side, the groups formed vertically. As he seated the bullets farther out and increased the powder charge, the groups finally became horizontal. If he went still farther, the groups formed big globs. He said the trick is to find the midway point between vertical and horizontal. That point should be a small hole.�
You Whining Kchunt...you ALMOST said something about The Rifle,but went right to Whining instead. Congratulations?!?
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
Perhaps consider holding your breath and stomping your itty-bitty feet,during your next Whine and fresh batch of Excuses?!? I musta missed it,where you quantified just how loud your Imagination was,when you "shoot" it?!? Do tell! Laffin'!
Cheer up,I prolly shoot more than one chambering,in more than one barrel length and in more than one contour. I know that ain't "fair",but you'll haveta pardon my being afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess...while a guess is the "best" you can do.
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
Hint.
rost',
I enjoy that your Stupidity isn't an Act. Congratulations?!?
Why is it,that you feel compelled in the need to reiterate what an incredibly slow [bleep] "learner" you are? Sweetheart...that ain't ever been a "secret". Laffin'! Knock it outta da Park and dangle a picture of you and your crossed-eyes in their full "splendor",if only to connect the dots on how/why it takes you decades to "learn" how incredibly little you "know". Dare ya' and I'm looking forward to them Excuses in particular. You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot! Re-laffin'!
Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always going to be better served by asking questions,instead of giving "answers". Hint.
Again,VERY good [bleep] call to refrain ALL things The Rifle and go right to your Vagina Monologue instead. Ain't it an intellesting Dichotomy,that even someone as [bleep] incredibly Stupid as you,knows better?!?
You're doing "great". Hint.
Laffin'!
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
'bear,
You's at the mercy of your means,ability and comprehension,which is undoubtedly very unfair disadvantages. Laffin'!
Funniest part is,you poor stupid [bleep],is that you've been led to water.
Hint.
A wood stocked rifle Boxer???????? I can't believe you ain't chunked it in the fireplace and threw a synthetic on?
Rocket scientists would just laff their azz off at ladders! Hell, they even set some world records in Registered matches with the National benchrest shooter's Ass'n with moving backers!
I played with the "ladder" in the late 70's, it was mental masturbation then, it is a total goat rop'en now.
Not exactly true as the late Harold Vaughn was, literally, a rocket scientist and he goes into great detail why the "ladder" type load development works to minimize vertical dispersion in his ground breaking book "Rifle Accuracy Facts".
Not only did he take pictures of the bullet during exit but also mounted accelerometers to track muzzle oscillation.
There really is no debate that vertical dispersion changes with the timing of the bullets exit and the oscillations of the barrel. Timing the bullet exit to an upswing in the barrel oscillation will produce a load with less vertical at distance than a load that exits on a downswing in the barrel oscillation.
Whether or not this slight improvement in vertical is important to a hunter or even if he can find it with his equipment or shooting ability is really the question.
Obviously Lil Fish is not going to find much to be gained. When Kimber MTs and wannabe Rem TIs being shot of a backpack are your holy grail then getting to technical with the load development is really a waste of time.
Ladder type load development would not have fixed ass shooting this buck at 500yds. Learning how to shoot and getting a decent rifle for the job would be a smarter answer.
Most of us with much hunting experience are loath to kiss hunting rounds. Sometimes it is the only play a guy has with a poorly designed or poorly executed chamber but that hardly makes it the technique of choice if one has a decent rifle.
Personally I don�t use a powder charge ladder type of load development because I can keep vertical dispersion within my needs by moving seating depths (seating ladders). Having chambers that allow jump gives a guy options.
If I ever got serious about match shooting again I would unquestionably run both powder and seating ladders and give up a few FPS for a slight gain in vertical.
As Ric posted earlier a fellow might already be shooting a load that exits on the upswing and nothing will be gained, but the only way to know is to shoot the ladders and see for yourself.
Lil Fish,
I do declare you shoot some of the biggest little bucks around. I just can't figure if you are bitching or bragging.
I'm afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess.
Much to the chagrin of the very Guessers themselves.
Laffin'!
'Hunter,
Your myriad of insecurities,are VERY well founded. Congratulations?!?
1) I prolly shoot more than (1) chambering,in more than (1) barrel length,in more than (1) contour and even in more than (1) twist rate. Just sayin'. Hint. Laffin'!
2) PLEASE find me "mistaken" and I'll happily take the time to rub your nose in your [bleep] Stupidity. As an aside,I will make it look easy...if only because it is. Hint. Consider that a (2) dog dare. Laffin'!
Again,exceedingly GOOD call for you to Whine and skirt ALL things The Rifle...if only because it's the only [bleep] move you've got. Your inherent Kchuntitude is boundless. Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
Hint.
Dooshmike,
I suffer lotsa Walnut and simply accept it,for what is...and that as a series of heavy concessions slated to Play Toys.
It is,what it is and that simply ain't much.
Hint.
Burns,
I enjoy your Imagination,ALMOST as much as you do.
Funny how it keeps getting you run outta Business,on an Express Rail.
Bless your heart...you "hard charger" you. REALLY enjoyed the Jump Throating "advantage".
Your myriad of insecurities,are VERY well founded. Congratulations?!?
2) PLEASE find me "mistaken" and I'll happily take the time to rub your nose in your [bleep] Stupidity. As an aside,I will make it look easy...if only because it is. Hint. Consider that a (2) dog dare. Laffin'!
Boxer
I do not have any insecurities. I have clearly posted what I do and how and its proven results, I do not have to revert to refusing to answer, call names and post pictures to avoid the question. Not sure if your mistaken or not. You refused to describe what you do. Laffin again, dummy.
I posted what I have done with the ladder and proven it in competition. I know that was hard for you to follow as no pictures.
As for you shooting all various calibers, contours etc. Well any village idiot can load and shoot them, but that is all it looks like and does not prove squat.
Go back to your corner and play with yourself and post some more pictures. I am not impressed with your pictures, arrogance, stupidity and internet bully attitude.
JohnBurns
FWIW before the dinglehead jumps in with another picture.
I run a ladder starting in the lands ONLY on a single shot comp gun because it will have the highest pressures in the lands and does not hav a magazine. I run a ladder at max magazine COAL for hunting mag guns, so no point in starting at the lands normally. My experience has shown that Bergers and other VLDs "tend" to like in the lands very often, but not always and non VLDs such as Sierras "tend" to like off. The new Berger hybrids really have a large node also on seating depths as much as .050. My 300 WSM comp gun is like that.
Most ladders have shown 2-3 nodes, as I try to run them to the higher node just to see pressures and where they are. I can zero in on a mid node load then work seating depths and it works extremely well and it is repeatable as it shows on targets.
We have some guns that like the Bergers as far as .100 off though.
The more experienced LR hunters try to build mag guns with extended mag boxes and longer throats if possible if they are running mag guns. Most of my bigger LR guns (338 Lapua Ack Imp and 338-408) I just built as single shots anyway so no issues.
Got to ask, where did you guys find this clown anyway?
Don't matter, wherever B lands its gonna be a Goatphuck sooner rather than later. That's his sthick. Whatever his moniker is, until he's banned its always the same, same put-downs, same deer, same rifles. 'Bout the only thing that changes is who he puts down/insults. Just cut'n paste, change the names and a word or two.
Do a google search of some of his pix. Those bucks he's been posting since 2007 and probably before. Years ago they were interesting and often accompanied by enough interesting photos to make it worth putting up with his jazz.
He don't mind an you don't matter.
I learned long ago you don't reason with the fellow. No point in trying to have a discussion. No point in getting mad or upset.
I don't know about ya'll but I come to these forums to have fun. Just go with the flow and enjoy the ride.
Don't matter, wherever B lands its gonna be a Goatphuck sooner rather than later. That's his sthick. Whatever his moniker is, until he's banned its always the same, same put-downs, same deer, same rifles. 'Bout the only thing that changes is who he puts down/insults. Just cut'n paste, change the names and a word or two.
Do a google search of some of his pix. Those bucks he's been posting since 2007 and probably before. Years ago they were interesting and often accompanied by enough interesting photos to make it worth putting up with his jazz.
He don't mind an you don't matter.
I learned long ago you don't reason with the fellow. No point in trying to have a discussion. No point in getting mad or upset.
I don't know about ya'll but I come to these forums to have fun. Just go with the flow and enjoy the ride.
Rocket scientists would just laff their azz off at ladders! Hell, they even set some world records in Registered matches with the National benchrest shooter's Ass'n with moving backers!
I played with the "ladder" in the late 70's, it was mental masturbation then, it is a total goat rop'en now.
Not exactly true as the late Harold Vaughn was, literally, a rocket scientist and he goes into great detail why the "ladder" type load development works to minimize vertical dispersion in his ground breaking book "Rifle Accuracy Facts".
Not only did he take pictures of the bullet during exit but also mounted accelerometers to track muzzle oscillation.
There really is no debate that vertical dispersion changes with the timing of the bullets exit and the oscillations of the barrel. Timing the bullet exit to an upswing in the barrel oscillation will produce a load with less vertical at distance than a load that exits on a downswing in the barrel oscillation.
Whether or not this slight improvement in vertical is important to a hunter or even if he can find it with his equipment or shooting ability is really the question.
Obviously Lil Fish is not going to find much to be gained. When Kimber MTs and wannabe Rem TIs being shot of a backpack are your holy grail then getting to technical with the load development is really a waste of time.
Ladder type load development would not have fixed ass shooting this buck at 500yds. Learning how to shoot and getting a decent rifle for the job would be a smarter answer.
Most of us with much hunting experience are loath to kiss hunting rounds. Sometimes it is the only play a guy has with a poorly designed or poorly executed chamber but that hardly makes it the technique of choice if one has a decent rifle.
Personally I don’t use a powder charge ladder type of load development because I can keep vertical dispersion within my needs by moving seating depths (seating ladders). Having chambers that allow jump gives a guy options.
If I ever got serious about match shooting again I would unquestionably run both powder and seating ladders and give up a few FPS for a slight gain in vertical.
As Ric posted earlier a fellow might already be shooting a load that exits on the upswing and nothing will be gained, but the only way to know is to shoot the ladders and see for yourself.
Lil Fish,
I do declare you shoot some of the biggest little bucks around. I just can't figure if you are bitching or bragging.
So this mean I should tell the wife to save a stamp and take you off my birthday party guest list ? And before you say yes....theres gonna pony rides and window flavored cake.
You have CLEARLY Posted that you are a [bleep] Idiot and that is not to be refuted. Congratulations?!?
Bless your heart.
Laffin'!
Dang Boxer you posted and forgot your "look at me photo"! Everyone is so disappointed. So I will post one for you.
Here is one for you of your Hornet with a 32 Amax AND the 338 "Super Hornet" with 295 Hornady, along with the 300 HSM (30-375 Ruger) and 208 Amax plus little pea shooters for 338 Super Hornet and HSM LR pistol.
I tried that ladder load stuff once... After all was said and done I walked 3-4 miles, shoot walk down mark target, shoot walk down mark target, shoot walk down mark target you see a theme here. Well I took that great worthless information I mean great information and ran home like a pimple faced high schooler who just scored shannon tweed porn. Loaded up some rounds based off my "results" few days later back to the range pretty proud of myself and start shooting hey WTF none these [bleep] things are grouping ah WTF I wasted all that powder good [bleep] bullets for this [bleep]! Now days I find my max overall length adjust and go from there. I'm fat realize I need excerise but walking back and forth 900 [bleep] times is for the birds! Anyhow here is a picture of my bou 400yds no ladder testing required
Oh my daughter bou shot a day later 320yds no ladder testign required either.
No walking needed, unless you need it, and it sounds like you need it, so the Audette is perfect for not only your rifle/load combo, but also your fat ass.
No walking needed, unless you need it, and it sounds like you need it, so the Audette is perfect for not only your rifle/load combo, but also your fat ass.
I�ll be the first to admit I�m not a long range shooter. Prolly most of all ya�ll shoot better than I do. However with the right rifle, scope and zero,even as a short range meat hunter, I�m very comfortable out 300 yards and in certain circumstances, to 400 yds. I�ve only made one shot longer. A lazer ranged 590 yards on a white-tail doe. But I knew my ballistics and got lucky.
So having said that
79S,
No offense meant here,and not to take anything away from your accomplishments, but 300 to 400 yard shots on a Caribou sized animal is not really what one would consider long range game is it?
I would think 750 yds. out would be more of what I consider to be long range. Am I mistaken?
An example
I call this �the canopy�
It is one of the highest spots on our lease. From here you can see to infinity for about 240degrees of a circle. If you look closely at the opening in the foreground to the left of the rifle muzzle, there is a dead hoglet. Distance is +/-174 yds.
Here is a view looking in a westerly direction
Spincast feeder, 175 yds. +/- Left dot, 650 yds +/- Right dot, 900 yds. +/- Middle dot, 1,200 yds. +/-
Now a little different view of the same. The tom turkey under the dot is strutting about 1,200 yards away.
Now being able to put a bullet in that turkey at 1,200 yds. off a rest would be a worthy �long range� shot IMHO
I would never attempt to shoot at anything past 400 yds. If you want to shoot turkey, deer, elk, moose, out to 1200,1300,1400,1500, 2 miles out knock yourself out. But not me.
I would never attempt to shoot at anything past 400 yds. If you want to shoot turkey, deer, elk, moose, out to 1200,1300,1400,1500, 2 miles out knock yourself out. But not me.
You really need to go to a range with someone with long range experience and their equipment.
I routinely have folks who've never shot long range or even shot at all hitting 700 yard plus MOA targets with the first trigger squeeze. Some are even young women
I would never attempt to shoot at anything past 400 yds. If you want to shoot turkey, deer, elk, moose, out to 1200,1300,1400,1500, 2 miles out knock yourself out. But not me.
You really need to go to a range with someone with long range experience and their equipment.
I routinely have folks who've never shot long range or even shot at all hitting 700 yard plus MOA targets with the first trigger squeeze. Some are even young women
JohnBurns does too...
Nah but thanks for the tip. I have no idea who john burns is either. On a side note I do have a friend who was an instructor at Ft Benning. I was on the phone with him asking about this ladder group and how the Army comes to the conclusion what bullet and powder combo to use in the 7.62 m24 platform. He said all the ammo comes from lake city 172gr match. Everything is done in MOA. Their is no ladder loads going to find the perfect load for that individual rifle all shooters are expected to shoot MOA.
I would never attempt to shoot at anything past 400 yds. If you want to shoot turkey, deer, elk, moose, out to 1200,1300,1400,1500, 2 miles out knock yourself out. But not me.
You really need to go to a range with someone with long range experience and their equipment.
I routinely have folks who've never shot long range or even shot at all hitting 700 yard plus MOA targets with the first trigger squeeze. Some are even young women
JohnBurns does too...
No offense, that seems like target shooting, not hunting.
I don't think anyone takes offense. Everyone's milage varies
These discussions happen all the time around here.
So at what distance is it hunting and not target shooting?
More fun trying to move in on 'em. My personal choice no doubt. As to your range question, *shrugs*. Not so much range but the situation for me.
Quote
You really need to go to a range with someone with long range experience and their equipment.
I routinely have folks who've never shot long range or even shot at all hitting 700 yard plus MOA targets with the first trigger squeeze. Some are even young women
You are saying it basically requires little skill, just good equipment. That, IMO gives you long range boys no credit.
Nah but thanks for the tip. I have no idea who john burns is either.
On a side note I do have a friend who was an instructor at Ft Benning. I was on the phone with him asking about this ladder group and how the Army comes to the conclusion what bullet and powder combo to use in the 7.62 m24 platform. He said all the ammo comes from lake city 172gr match. Everything is done in MOA. Their is no ladder loads going to find the perfect load for that individual rifle all shooters are expected to shoot MOA.
STEADFAST AND LOYAL
Word on the street is that John Burns fellow is a Jerry Seinfeld look alike with a bad spray tan, not to mention the 24hr Campfires biggest douche. Count yourself lucky.
On your side note if your buddy thinks the US Army is still shooting 172gr Ball Special Match he might be just a touch out of touch.
Side note #2 is that MOA went the way of the Doodo bird unless you live in Wisconsin or are an uncommonly accomplished LR killer of big game.
I tried that ladder load stuff once... After all was said and done I walked 3-4 miles, shoot walk down mark target, shoot walk down mark target, shoot walk down mark target you see a theme here. Well I took that great worthless information I mean great information and ran home like a pimple faced high schooler who just scored shannon tweed porn. Loaded up some rounds based off my "results" few days later back to the range pretty proud of myself and start shooting hey WTF none these [bleep] things are grouping ah WTF I wasted all that powder good [bleep] bullets for this [bleep]! Now days I find my max overall length adjust and go from there. I'm fat realize I need excerise but walking back and forth 900 [bleep] times is for the birds! Anyhow here is a picture of my bou 400yds no ladder testing required
Oh my daughter bou shot a day later 320yds no ladder testign required either.
So if your way works for you, get after it!
Some of us are a bit pickier, might be top level national competitive shooters, need more accuracy, shoot a actual long distances etc.
Carry on. FWIW I have shot our small deer at almost 400 with a muzzle loader......
I would never attempt to shoot at anything past 400 yds. If you want to shoot turkey, deer, elk, moose, out to 1200,1300,1400,1500, 2 miles out knock yourself out. But not me.
YOu can do that with factory ammo, factory rifle, non bedded etc... as I noted I"ve taken stuff with my MZ to almost 400... I"ve taken game beyond 500 with iron sights....and don't need to discuss it on the long range forum?
If you read the original post, its how and why run a ladder.
Some folks don't need to use em, some have other ways. Some ways can be more work, some less. Some pay off some don't.
Now that we don't have to sort through ebonics it might make more sense.
On second thought, that was a stupid question on my part. I'm sure there are all kinds of things and esoterica that others may know that I don't, but perhaps you catch my drift.
Nah but thanks for the tip. I have no idea who john burns is either.
On a side note I do have a friend who was an instructor at Ft Benning. I was on the phone with him asking about this ladder group and how the Army comes to the conclusion what bullet and powder combo to use in the 7.62 m24 platform. He said all the ammo comes from lake city 172gr match. Everything is done in MOA. Their is no ladder loads going to find the perfect load for that individual rifle all shooters are expected to shoot MOA.
STEADFAST AND LOYAL
Word on the street is that John Burns fellow is a Jerry Seinfeld look alike with a bad spray tan, not to mention the 24hr Campfires biggest douche. Count yourself lucky.
On your side note if your buddy thinks the US Army is still shooting 172gr Ball Special Match he might be just a touch out of touch.
Side note #2 is that MOA went the way of the Doodo bird unless you live in Wisconsin or are an uncommonly accomplished LR killer of big game.
Well he left the school house back in 2011 so he probably is. Thanks jerry Seinfeld look alike with bad spray tan. And it was me saying 172 not him.
Now lets get into an actual discussion, now that ebonics has flown the coop for a while...
I see all this, kiss, find pressure, rock on.
And as noted, if you are looking for pressure you do that a bit at a time. Certainly not load the max load and shoot a 10 round group blowing primers out of heavy brass or tight bores to decide you need to back down another grain or two....
How does a ladder work?
We've discussed that we are looking for minimal group seperation with the widest variation of powder charges. In non ebonics, the sweet spot.
So what do I find?
I run mine over a chrono. As one knows reload data can be off quite a bit due to many variables in the gun and reloading stuff. Bare or coated? odd or even grooves? Tightness of the bore and how the throat is set up.
So I go to either a bullet that is engaged a minimum of .010 or off the rifling that minimum of .010. Going with what I've learned whether to engage or not. Different bullets like different methods at times.
Engaged is not the smartest with hunting ammo, but you can generally get away with it.
The word kissing is always used in ebonics. I'll tell you why I don't care for the word or what it means to me. Bullet ogives can vary, and I don't mean by design. Just as the meplat can vary. Not much, but enough. And depending on the quality of the projectile, some vary more than others and more often.
One of the things that I"m typically after is that same pressure produces same velocity. To an extent.
The simple answer for me, is what do you think would happen to pressure if you shoot one bullet just touching or kissing, the next engaged .010 and the next freebored or jumping .010? The pressure and hence the MV will likely vary MORE than if all three were any of the above.. IE all engaged .010. To simply barely kiss, and even if your seater is perfect, you can still have variances of engaged or not. There is a reason that target shooters sometimes use soft seating... so that the engagement is the same each shot regardless to seating depth and or throat erosion. Let the chamber seat the bullet.
So I am either off or engaged.
Then I run the audette on a GOOD day, not just any day, but one I can see well enough with my spotting scopes, and where the wind and mirage are not bad. Yes you might have to search for that day.
I run it over a chrono.
What I find with both, is not only where harmoics are friendly, but where I"m getting to pressure at. The chrono will show increases of pressure that are linear as you go up in charge weights until you get to high pressure, where an addition of powder will not increase the MV the same as previous ones, and sometimes not at all.
So with the audette, i've located 2 things that are important in my books to get to where I want.
With targets, I'm trying for the least wind drift. And IMHO thats what you are after in hunting. Its the most variable thing out there that you cannot easily quantify with something like a rangefinder. ITs still always somewhat of a SWAG to get the wind right. So I don't want a slow round. But I know that with some combos I wont' be at acceptable accuracy with the fastest round either. And I may be out of an accuracy node on top of it.
Now I"m still not sure I get all the ebonic "hints" about kiss, find pressure and rock on.
But to have no clue where your bullet is in relationship to the lands, when testing ammo is like the blind leading the blind.
So we've already ruled out that "kiss" means anything abnormal, other than your version of how engaged you want to be.
Now we find both accuracy and velocity and hence signs of pressure just a bit at a time, going up in charge weight.
And regardless to 79S post, and I"m not saying he didn't see what he did because anything can happen, I've yet to analyze and pick middle of the cluster not give me good accuracy from the get go.
Thats the same as shooting ten 5 shot groups or 50 shots, having shot only 10 shots basically. ANd having the same data, an all on one sheet without having to overlay 10 seperate groups to find out whats what.
I"ve been down the road of taking the best 5 shot gropu, but wondering why over time, that my ammo isn't the best. To later find that I was likely on teh edge of a node and temps warmed up, throat wore etc... and changed and tossed me out of the node.
Makes way more sense to be able to have that luxury as to being off a few tenths of a grain of powder charge wise, or a bit warmer, or cooler or humid or not..... and still have the faith that the bullet will hit where you point it. In the group.
Kiss find pressure and rock is the same as Audette.
So I offer this as an aside. Ebonics Dictionary.
What is kiss,find pressure and rock on? That definition is run an increasing test, that was though of many years ago and often at that time called Audette, for Creighton Audette who decided it could work out loads with less work. One of the leading shooters of the day. These days its been adapted a few times, folks using ladders don't even know the name Audette often. And thats not a big issue. But they are doing the same in varying ways.
And even when you are done wiht the first test, you go back and tweek some more as needed.
FWIW and in answer to 79S, how could you walk miles shooting a ladder and have a load that didnt' shoot at 100 yards?
Fairly easily actually. Not all bullets are stable and asleep until they pass a certain distance. Which means you could have a long and short range load. Its not for everyone, and I'd think not that common to hunting at all, unless its different bullets for different impact velocities. But I do have a 90 grain load in 223 that kicks tail and takes name. Works really good at the 600 yard line. I started my Audette at 300 with it. And worked on it from there, finalizing it with various tweeks and 12 shot groups at 600 yards from the sling.
I've used it at 500 even winning many matches. And turning in some range records, beating national champions etc...not that I or anyone cares and I dont' have pictures to post...
BUT one day, on a match at 300 yards, where we were supposed to have shot a 1000 yard match, I took my 90s and a few backup 75 amax.... The wind was bad enough to break off target frames on the 1000 yard pits line. So they made it into a prone only short range match at 300. I was thinking... 300 is so easy with iron sights but i"m handicapped running post sights vs apertures the bolt gun guys were running... this match will probably be won by 1 point, IE someone will catch a 10 on a change where the others catch a 9... so let me shoot my 1000 yard ammo. I lost. The 90s shot ok, but probably not any better than just over MOA at 300. They were not totally asleep or stable. Went back to my 75 amax on the next 2 matches and won those. But lost the match due to over thinking....
I went back, and did a LOT of testing off my benches at home that go out to 600 yards, scoped and often after dark so mirage and wind were not factors... and found that my 90s were going to sleep between 400 and 500 yards.... I'd have never thought that possible.
But then do some research and some shooting and you learn.
Thats why I often only believe paper. And its why I don't get horny seeing super low ES and SD on the chrono either... that has rarely been my best groups at longer ranges. But it takes GOOD ES and SD to have good groups.
FWIW most any factory gun and ammo, with a bit of shooting is good for 300 to 500 yards. With a bit of shooting you learn what its capable of and most big game vitals are considerably larger than MOA to start with. Most target shooters demand better than MOA.
Now I"m aware that all kinds of nasty words will fly in 2 weeks or so... and I"ll probably be silent as I don't play those games much anymore. Its not worth it. Especially dealing with folks that think their way is the only way. And yours is stupid.
This method has worked for years. And has worked very good. And its an option, no one is telling you, you have to do it this way or even that, folks are relaying how it works and what they do and why.
If kiss, find pressure and rock on works for you, thats good too.
I just wanna know what type of strain gauge you are using to find that pressure so you can rock on? Oehler or other?
I would never attempt to shoot at anything past 400 yds. If you want to shoot turkey, deer, elk, moose, out to 1200,1300,1400,1500, 2 miles out knock yourself out. But not me.
You really need to go to a range with someone with long range experience and their equipment.
I routinely have folks who've never shot long range or even shot at all hitting 700 yard plus MOA targets with the first trigger squeeze. Some are even young women
JohnBurns does too...
Nah but thanks for the tip. I have no idea who john burns is either. On a side note I do have a friend who was an instructor at Ft Benning. I was on the phone with him asking about this ladder group and how the Army comes to the conclusion what bullet and powder combo to use in the 7.62 m24 platform. He said all the ammo comes from lake city 172gr match. Everything is done in MOA. Their is no ladder loads going to find the perfect load for that individual rifle all shooters are expected to shoot MOA.
STEADFAST AND LOYAL
FWIW 172 hasn't been standard for years. It wasn't even the standard in the late 80s when I started shooting. The best you can do with 172 special ball is pull the bullets and seat 168s on top or pull some powder and seat 175s.
The army has a TOTALLY different goal in mind..... its applicable but not in a hunting situation.
But it is very close to 25 varget/BR4 and 69 smk and keep going. But can almost guarantee that while the above load is a keeper in almost any AR15/M16, I can also say that it very much so may not be teh BEST load in any INDIVIDUAL rifle.
I would never attempt to shoot at anything past 400 yds. If you want to shoot turkey, deer, elk, moose, out to 1200,1300,1400,1500, 2 miles out knock yourself out. But not me.
You really need to go to a range with someone with long range experience and their equipment.
I routinely have folks who've never shot long range or even shot at all hitting 700 yard plus MOA targets with the first trigger squeeze. Some are even young women
JohnBurns does too...
Nah but thanks for the tip. I have no idea who john burns is either. On a side note I do have a friend who was an instructor at Ft Benning. I was on the phone with him asking about this ladder group and how the Army comes to the conclusion what bullet and powder combo to use in the 7.62 m24 platform. He said all the ammo comes from lake city 172gr match. Everything is done in MOA. Their is no ladder loads going to find the perfect load for that individual rifle all shooters are expected to shoot MOA.
STEADFAST AND LOYAL
FWIW 172 hasn't been standard for years. It wasn't even the standard in the late 80s when I started shooting. The best you can do with 172 special ball is pull the bullets and seat 168s on top or pull some powder and seat 175s.
The army has a TOTALLY different goal in mind..... its applicable but not in a hunting situation.
But it is very close to 25 varget/BR4 and 69 smk and keep going. But can almost guarantee that while the above load is a keeper in almost any AR15/M16, I can also say that it very much so may not be teh BEST load in any INDIVIDUAL rifle.
Yes I'm tracking now on 118 ammo I read that bullets ranged from 172-175, due to worn machinery at the lake city plant. Again my buddy refered to it as m118LR I just assumed it was 172.
SD numbers that most people quote are based on a statistically invalid number of sample shots anyway, so unless you're shooting 50 rounds over the chrono to get a SD value, it's easy for a guy to think he's shooting the load with the lowest SD, but if he ran a few more shots over the chrono he may be surprised when the SD goes up.
You are talking 172 FMJ when you say 172s. When I say 175s I'm saying 175 sierra BTHP match. THey are NOT made at LC< but at Sierra. And they are a proven match bullet, where the 172 was an improvement on the ball 150s... they never have been a true match bullet. Heck the more it think, maybe the ball in special ball was actually 173?
First thing you do when issued the special ball is try to have a seater so you can crack the tar seal on the bullets... and then shoot em. Helps a bit with accuracy.
The M118LR is a fairly new iteration, using only the 175 sierra as far as I know.
What chrono do you use? Have you found that a low SD load does not shoot/group well?
Thanks.
R.
Oehler 35 non P.
I have found some test runs with 10 shot groups when you are not looking in the scope, but shooting a group but watching the chrono, this should be the best ever group... but while its totally ok, its not been oustanding.
Mind you my personal take is that you trust paper to 600, and don't pay that much attention to SD and ES, but beyond that we hit paper next at 800 and there you have to pay attention to paper too, but the vertical there and beyond will more visibly tie to the variation of the MV of each shot.
Its not that I don't look for ES and SD. But I base my choice of a given load for what it does on the target, not the chrono.
If that makes more sense.
None of my good loads have high ES or SD. Not a one of them is the very best ES/SD I've ever shot in 10 shot groups. No clue why.
SD numbers that most people quote are based on a statistically invalid number of sample shots anyway, so unless you're shooting 50 rounds over the chrono to get a SD value, it's easy for a guy to think he's shooting the load with the lowest SD, but if he ran a few more shots over the chrono he may be surprised when the SD goes up.
Wouldn't that all depend on the original lot of ammunition loaded? Most don't load 1000's of rounds at a time. So, out of a batch of say 200, what would an appropriate sample be? I am thinking less than 50...
You are talking 172 FMJ when you say 172s. When I say 175s I'm saying 175 sierra BTHP match. THey are NOT made at LC< but at Sierra. And they are a proven match bullet, where the 172 was an improvement on the ball 150s... they never have been a true match bullet. Heck the more it think, maybe the ball in special ball was actually 173?
First thing you do when issued the special ball is try to have a seater so you can crack the tar seal on the bullets... and then shoot em. Helps a bit with accuracy.
The M118LR is a fairly new iteration, using only the 175 sierra as far as I know.
In Nov-Dec 99 was the last time I fired 118SB (172gr) in bulk quantities (MTT at Carson). I fired 118LR in late 2003 at SOTIC.
You are talking 172 FMJ when you say 172s. When I say 175s I'm saying 175 sierra BTHP match. THey are NOT made at LC< but at Sierra. And they are a proven match bullet, where the 172 was an improvement on the ball 150s... they never have been a true match bullet. Heck the more it think, maybe the ball in special ball was actually 173?
First thing you do when issued the special ball is try to have a seater so you can crack the tar seal on the bullets... and then shoot em. Helps a bit with accuracy.
The M118LR is a fairly new iteration, using only the 175 sierra as far as I know.
SD numbers that most people quote are based on a statistically invalid number of sample shots anyway, so unless you're shooting 50 rounds over the chrono to get a SD value, it's easy for a guy to think he's shooting the load with the lowest SD, but if he ran a few more shots over the chrono he may be surprised when the SD goes up.
Wouldn't that all depend on the original lot of ammunition loaded? Most don't load 1000's of rounds at a time. So, out of a batch of say 200, what would an appropriate sample be? I am thinking less than 50...
R.
But ya gotta know that folks quote an ES /SD from a single 5 or 10 shot group as a best case scenario a lot of times.
Folks have to understand that a small average, ain't much of an average statistically.
I wouldn't care if over a 1000 rounds, the ES was off, RE day to day variations, as long as the overall spread from day to day was on the low side.
From the math side it would be interesting to know what a math guy thinks of numbers.
You are talking 172 FMJ when you say 172s. When I say 175s I'm saying 175 sierra BTHP match. THey are NOT made at LC< but at Sierra. And they are a proven match bullet, where the 172 was an improvement on the ball 150s... they never have been a true match bullet. Heck the more it think, maybe the ball in special ball was actually 173?
First thing you do when issued the special ball is try to have a seater so you can crack the tar seal on the bullets... and then shoot em. Helps a bit with accuracy.
The M118LR is a fairly new iteration, using only the 175 sierra as far as I know.
Yes I should of been clearer and said 175 SMK.
And to be clear here, no one is taking away from your mentioned caribou kills. Very nice work. And good eats to, assuming not in the rut. Just that you have to compare apples to apples in a lot of these instances.
What it takes for one thing, isn't the same needs for another.
Heck... when I was a kid, you know as a stupid azz slow window licking leaner..... it took me some time to become proficient at what I thought was a long way.. 200 ish yards across a field.....
Later down the line, some days 200 yards can still be tough, even in a sling kneeling or sitting when the wind blows you so much you can't stay in the kill zone.... and other days given the right conditions, 500-600-700 isn't anything but a chip shot.
My methodology is pretty similar after I have done basic research to determine, bullet,primer, and powder combo I want to use/test for each ladder.
1. Shoot ONLY in early morning or evening in no wind conditions.
2. minimum of 300 yards prefer 400. I have found that seems to be the ideal distance for enough vertical dispersion as the bullets walk up and close enough to see bullet impacts with good spotting scope on white target.
3. 35P chrono
4. Minature paper target at bench to plot each round and another sheet to write down each MV for each round. That way I do not lose track of any bullet shot as each is numbered on plot sheet and anytime I go down range to verify impact.
5. Minimum of 1 minute between shots from starting dirty bore, I usually zero at that distance on another target at the side to confirm accurate zeroa for bottom of ladder target which is normally large plain white cardboard with 1" aiming dot near bottom. I use .3 grain for large cases and .2 for smaller cases as increments.
6. If I am not 100% sure of bullet location, I either walk down or use colored magic markers on bullet tips which show up on target. No they will not vary impact points on target. That is used all the time at 1K BR to identify any crossfires on your target.
7. MV as you go up will be linear until you hit a node and then it tends to decrease dramatically for that 2-4 shots and then jump linear again. You will see 3 rds with small MV variances normally in the node and then jump dramatically again.
Combination of bullet AND MV grouping confirms node and is usually easy to see when you compare the two!!
8. I pick a middle node, shoot groups to confirm basic accuracy and ES, SD nodes. I normally find 2 mabye three nodes, and one will be in the MV range I am looking for. Many times the top one is at the starting of high pressure point, so often do not use that one. Middle of the node gives me enough variance on temps and other factors that I am not out of the node on any given day.
9. Try groups at various seating depths at my best grouping and see what depth it likes. single shot gun start, .010 in and come out. Magazine gun, start at max magazine COAL and in from there.
10. If the gun will not shoot 1 MOA, that makes shooting a ladder a little difficult as you do not know what is the real vertical or 3-4MOA grouping "inability", so IMO it is not for every gun.
I didn't know anyone else did the colored magic marker thing...
I've tried to use white paint pens on them, hoping it would make spotting easy in one of our rapid fire matches that starts with no verification zeros in full wind and at 600 yards, the advantage there was not nearly enough. Ended up chasing thermal imaging but never got far enough before we quit shooting competitively... but I digress.
Good point aobut fouled bore and time between shots. I take it for granted on some things.
And ESPECIALLY if you have changed powders.... I won't shoot any test without at LEAST 5 of a different powder down the tubes. 1-2 usually is enough.... but....
Charge increments, IIRC was suggested 1% of case capacity? as an increment?
On mags I don't do anything smaller than .5 to start with.
Only other thing on COAL with a mag fed round, I want to know where the bullet touches so that I have an idea of how much jump I am dealing with... and so that I know i'm not jammed....which could happen with certain setups.
We're having a good discussion now. I've been an advocate of the ladder method for almost 20 years and never had disappointing results. That said, I mainly use it on my LR/Palma/XTC competition rifles and my varmint rifles where precise accuracy is most important. Doesn't make sense for a lever action .35 Rem that will only be used inside 200 yards. For my deer rifles (.280/30-06 class) I will usually pick the bullet and powder I want to use, seat .030 off the lands, load five in increments of .5 grain starting 2gr below max and shoot groups and measure velocity at 200yds. I'm looking for sub-moa and respectable velocity and when I find it I load more and confirm that recipe. It's difficult for me to find a place to shoot past 200 to yield best results from the ladder, so this modified ladder works pretty well for me and I usually quickly find a hunting accuracy load. Twice, it hasn't worked as well and I did the full ladder work up, plus varying seating depth and found 3/4 MOA loads. On all my competition rifles I verify the node with two or three ten shot groups shot at the pace I would in a match, which is usually as quickly as the wind will allow. Hunting rifles use 3-5 shot groups fired in a minute or two, as I would in the field if I missed :-(
The confidence I've been able to build into my loads helped me quickly get to Master class in LR and XTC as well as win the Wisconsin State LR title for my class a few years back. Unfortunately, my shooting activity has been sidelined a bit due to family duties with kids getting older, but they are getting close to the age of being able to start themselves, so it will pickup.
Congrats on the good use of the ladder. And moving up the class ladder!
Audette helped me the same. Made it in service rifle to HM in XC and service rifle HM in LR also. Though they included 600 yard scores which are not really in there IMHO.
I'd like to see another thread about seating depth, which for service rifle, I've not had to chase, but I have a hunting rifle thats driven me somewhat nuts at times... would love to see how folks run a seating depth ladder so to speak.
... would love to see how folks run a seating depth ladder so to speak.
Jeff
I take the load that shot best from the node and do the test at 100 yards.
My procedure is the same as shooting the ladder in the first place, ie. I go to the range with my prepped, charged cases (with the chosen charge), bullets, press, calipers, comparator.
Since I had run the Audette with the OAL either magazine length or just off of the lands, I only need to seat the bullet deeper a certain, predetermined amount. Many times the seating depth used to find the load will do just fine. Others need to be adjusted.
At the matches I shoot, there is a lot of 100 yard shooting for score on paper. We routinely have stages where a 1/4" dot will garner the most points. It's important to have not only a Long Range load that has minimal vertical, but also have that load tuned as well as possible at 100 yards
At the range, I seat bullets into two of the cases at my longest chosen OAL and shoot them at my 100 yard target. If the two holes are looking like a third may make a good group, I'll seat another and shoot it. If the two holes are so far apart that it's obvious the depth is wrong and the group will be unacceptable, I move on to the next chosen depth. I usually seat .010 to .015" deeper in the case for each new depth.
When I find a depth that piles them into some kind of a 1/2" group or better, I'm done.
I have tried the seating test recommended on the Berger Bullet site. Shoot groups at the lands, .040" off, .080" off, and .120" off. One will shoot better than the rest. Then I work in and out from that depth in the same manner. It will work with other bullets as well other than the VLD.
At this point I have found the best load and the best depth.
I also have many more cases charged and ready for seating while I'm at the range. I seat bullets in all of the cases and move on to the silhouette range to nail down the drops as far out as I can shoot at steel. We have two ranges. One goes to 1000 with steel and the other 760.
Usually if I have enough cases charged at the beginning of the day for the Audette(100), I can knock all of this out in the same trip. I usually bring my scale to make more of the load chosen from the node if necessary to do some shooting at steel.
SD numbers that most people quote are based on a statistically invalid number of sample shots anyway, so unless you're shooting 50 rounds over the chrono to get a SD value, it's easy for a guy to think he's shooting the load with the lowest SD, but if he ran a few more shots over the chrono he may be surprised when the SD goes up.
Wouldn't that all depend on the original lot of ammunition loaded? Most don't load 1000's of rounds at a time. So, out of a batch of say 200, what would an appropriate sample be? I am thinking less than 50...
R.
It does definitely depend on the number of rounds in the population, meaning that if you plan on re-developing your load and re-testing for SD/ES for every batch of 200 rounds of ammo you load, then yes the calcs would be based on a population of 200. But if you develop a load and then produce 1000 rounds of it in batches of 200, then you're working with a population of 1000, not 200.
When you calculate the required sample size to have a 95% confidence interval and a sub-10 SD, it's a lot larger than most people think. Suffice it to say that a sample of 10 or even 20 shots is fairly meaningless when it comes to getting an accurate SD number.
I use the smaller increments (.2 or .3 gr) as I am looking for that 3-5 shot grouping and smaller increments make it more readily apparent. Other load development I will use larger increments and tune from there.
too easy to miss the node or middle which is what I want to find.
How many play with 0.1 grain powder increments for group shooting once you are in the middle of the node? I know I have at times.. just to be fairly certain I'm actually as far in the middle as I can be.... IE as close to having most leeway boht directions.
Interesting on seating depth, what I was mostly wondering, whats enough to be noticeable when testing? IE .010 or .040? If you fall in a node that says both .040 and .080 are about the same, how small of increments will you try to center up in the middle or will you split and call good?
I know that most of us have a certain desire of accuracy, and once we hit that, we tend to call it good and move forward. Barrels dont' live forever and ammo and time ain't cheap...
Does anyone actually simply shoot same as the original audette RE COAL, certain movement and only one shot each to see if if htere is a wide spot there of happiness?
I hear ya on 2 shots and no more if they don't meet muster... always hated having loaded 5 shot test groups and the first two at 100 were 2 inches apart...
Got to the point that I started loading 2 each and shooting just to see... but decided 3 was more non flukish.... and then came across Creightons article reprint.
I"m lucky though, I have 600 yards sitting out the door. Good benches at 100,200,300 and portable one at the rest.... steel on skids. Which sits at 600 most of its life.
When I'm deciding on my 600 yard load or beyond, I often end up with 2 choices in the end. At that point ,our match strings are usually 22 shots...
I"ve done a few months of test shooting 11, and then 11, and plotting, and I won't even look at teh data for info for a few months, then go compare all the plots to see which one is clearly better day in and day out...
It takes a lot of shots to be totally sure, or as sure as you'll ever be.
rost, Ebonics aside. Not to hard to tell around here who gets the most out of there equipment. True story. I shoot 1000 yard BR Silhouette. 10 crows at 850. 10 woodchucls at 900. 10 bobcats at 950. 10 cototes at 1000. A possible 40 for score.36 is the record and it has been done twice.Not by me. My heavy 17 pound rifle is a 300 RSAUM.I run 210g Berger LRBTs at 2800fps.I typically shoot in the mid to high 20s. I had to switch to a new lot of bullets. Left my seater die alone and never checked the loaded rounds against my barrel stub. Went to the match and shot a 9. It didn't take to long to find out what the problem was after I got home. Checked the loaded rounds against the barrel stub. I was running the 210g LRBT .013 into the lands. Yes the new batch of bullets were pretty different from the old batch.Different by .013.The rifle has never shot in the lands.And only hitting 9 targets that day proved it. Not a mistake I will be making again. Berger bullets from lot to lot can be totally different. To prove to myself where I needed to be I ran a seating ladder.I shot 4 shot groups at 500 yards from kissing(whatever ebonic BS that means) to .025 off the lands in .005 increments.Took some long seated rounds along and seated them with a small arbor press at the range,shooting the best two seating depths against one another. Last match of the year back in October I shot a 29. The crows at 850 are a nightmare if you dont have every bit of vertical dialed out of your load.
You guys fail to realize, you are all trying to get to the same place...an accurate load. Less vertical spread my show up on a ladder test, but it also shows up on the chrony.
You guys fail to realize, you are all trying to get to the same place...an accurate load. Less vertical spread my show up on a ladder test, but it also shows up on the chrony.
Different powders have different burning rates which shoot at different speeds. also the bigger the case the bigger the difference between shots through a chrono. It may show on a chrono but like the gentlemen said a chrono just shows speed. a speed at which you can use to build your dope for long range "hunting". after you waist your time of "ladder testing".
You guys fail to realize, you are all trying to get to the same place...an accurate load. Less vertical spread my show up on a ladder test, but it also shows up on the chrony.
Different powders have different burning rates which shoot at different speeds. also the bigger the case the bigger the difference between shots through a chrono. It may show on a chrono but like the gentlemen said a chrono just shows speed. a speed at which you can use to build your dope for long range "hunting". after you waist your time of "ladder testing".
Just so you can sleep better. Boxer can be my new daddy. and noodlez can be my sister/brother whatever it is. and you can be the one that no one accepts in the family�.
Well if nobody else will enter the conversation and share the method they've used with success....
I find most people want my advice on everything, so here you go.
I seat the bullet out as far as it will go and I add as much powder as I see fit. I don't pay any attention to reloading manuals because those are for rookies. I watch the chronograph until the number is as large as I expect it to be. When that number is big enough, I look through my spotter to make sure it's MOA or better at 100yds.
Then I shoot at 300 to make sure the rifle is still grouping sub-MOA. Then I load a schit ton of ammo and shoot until I'm out of ammo and hopefully I took the time to write down how much powder I used and I just load more of the same.
You guys fail to realize, you are all trying to get to the same place...an accurate load. Less vertical spread my show up on a ladder test, but it also shows up on the chrony.
I like you but I'm going to argue. I don't know about what you've seen, but in many years of tossing 20,000 plus rounds down range from one single caliber at the minimum, what I've seen is that a chrono....MAY or MAY NOT show vertical dispersion.
I have been WAY dissapointed more than a few times, not being able to see bullet holes in a long distance target, but watching my chrono, expecting to have found a holy grail load... only to drive down to the target and find... its worse than other loads with slightly worse ES/SD
What I THINK I'm seeing in this thread is different needs of accuracy. Not everyone needs to split the X ring. Not everyone shoots competition at longer distances. And if you are after game, its really generally a large target. Generally speaking.
All I know, and I"ve run with the big dogs in competition, the ones I've talked with that are big names, La Berge, Tubb, Tompkins, Gallagher, a bunch of AMU folks, heck I"ve even given the AMU some of my advice/ammo helping them work up loads one time.... none of them rely blindly on a chronograph.
To the last one, that I"ve ever discussed it with, its been use a chrono, but trust the paper and if you want a good load at 1000 yards, the ONLY way to find it is to shoot on paper at 1000 yards. Not game. Not best load at 100 or 300 or even 800, and not shooting rocks... shoot paper and make lots of holes and believe what the paper says.
Is Audette or any version that folks want to call a ladder various reasons, the best? It may not be, but as I"ve noted, I've saved lots of work, time, wear and tear etc... using it to get me into a node so that I can then expend a lot of 10 round test groups to tweak and verify it.
Some folks just like loading and shooting as much as they can. And that can be cool too. But my life never allowed enough time between shooting, dry firing, practicing, loading ammo, cleaning guns, changing the oil for the next trip etc..... to want to spend more hours chasing groups that won't work from the get go. If the first 2 shots are 2 inches apart as previously noted... no sense in firing more.
You guys fail to realize, you are all trying to get to the same place...an accurate load. Less vertical spread my show up on a ladder test, but it also shows up on the chrony.
Different powders have different burning rates which shoot at different speeds. also the bigger the case the bigger the difference between shots through a chrono. It may show on a chrono but like the gentlemen said a chrono just shows speed. a speed at which you can use to build your dope for long range "hunting". after you waist your time of "ladder testing".
Waste. Just FYI. Waist is what gets larger over time.
Curiously enough,I'm the last person to say that connecting reliably at LR is anywhere near difficult and am actually the antithesis(that means opposite,you poor poor stupid [bleep]).
I get a kick outta you Whining Kchunts and your Smoke & Ladders bullschit.
Hilarious!
'Hunter,
There is only (1) Super Hornet,bless your heart. Perhaps PM some more of The Paper Hat Brigade,to see if you can correctly ID it,in 4 tries. Laffin'!
What next? Perhaps a numerical Tutorial on how you Lick Windows?!?
Bless your heart,you poor poor clueless [bleep].
Your "best" is a riot!
79',
Don't go discouraging The Paper Hat Brigade,as they ride their ladders into the sunset.
Laffin'!
rost',
Didja ever gather the stroke,to concoct your Imagination And Pretend Board...so you can offer "insight" in the firsthand?!?
If not,you can still always Whine and talk out your ass,as per always. Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
'zig5,
Congratulations on summoning the "courage" to come outta the closet after 20yrs and tearfully extoll the "virtues" of your ladder.
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
I'm crying I'm laughing soooooooo hard.
Wow +P+!
G',
Didja ever pull it off and become the first Whining Texan,to Bitch herself happy?!?
Didn't think so.
Careful with them high heels,gettin' in/outta da Cart and "stomping" them Wild Pastures.
BEST part is,you poor poor stupid [bleep] think you are onto something!
BEST [bleep] Thread Evah!
I'm looking forward to the next Installment of "Smoke And Ladder Imagination And Pretend...The LR STORY".
You guys fail to realize, you are all trying to get to the same place...an accurate load. Less vertical spread my show up on a ladder test, but it also shows up on the chrony.
I like you but I'm going to argue. I don't know about what you've seen, but in many years of tossing 20,000 plus rounds down range from one single caliber at the minimum, what I've seen is that a chrono....MAY or MAY NOT show vertical dispersion.
I have been WAY dissapointed more than a few times, not being able to see bullet holes in a long distance target, but watching my chrono, expecting to have found a holy grail load... only to drive down to the target and find... its worse than other loads with slightly worse ES/SD
What I THINK I'm seeing in this thread is different needs of accuracy. Not everyone needs to split the X ring. Not everyone shoots competition at longer distances. And if you are after game, its really generally a large target. Generally speaking.
All I know, and I"ve run with the big dogs in competition, the ones I've talked with that are big names, La Berge, Tubb, Tompkins, Gallagher, a bunch of AMU folks, heck I"ve even given the AMU some of my advice/ammo helping them work up loads one time.... none of them rely blindly on a chronograph.
To the last one, that I"ve ever discussed it with, its been use a chrono, but trust the paper and if you want a good load at 1000 yards, the ONLY way to find it is to shoot on paper at 1000 yards. Not game. Not best load at 100 or 300 or even 800, and not shooting rocks... shoot paper and make lots of holes and believe what the paper says.
Is Audette or any version that folks want to call a ladder various reasons, the best? It may not be, but as I"ve noted, I've saved lots of work, time, wear and tear etc... using it to get me into a node so that I can then expend a lot of 10 round test groups to tweak and verify it.
Some folks just like loading and shooting as much as they can. And that can be cool too. But my life never allowed enough time between shooting, dry firing, practicing, loading ammo, cleaning guns, changing the oil for the next trip etc..... to want to spend more hours chasing groups that won't work from the get go. If the first 2 shots are 2 inches apart as previously noted... no sense in firing more.
Well if nobody else will enter the conversation and share the method they've used with success....
I find most people want my advice on everything, so here you go.
I seat the bullet out as far as it will go and I add as much powder as I see fit. I don't pay any attention to reloading manuals because those are for rookies. I watch the chronograph until the number is as large as I expect it to be. When that number is big enough, I look through my spotter to make sure it's MOA or better at 100yds.
Then I shoot at 300 to make sure the rifle is still grouping sub-MOA. Then I load a schit ton of ammo and shoot until I'm out of ammo and hopefully I took the time to write down how much powder I used and I just load more of the same.
Travis
Everyone who owns a 'Flave Precision product knows this. It's in the owner's manual.
fps variation w/different powders run across the chrono. Once powder is found take her to the top. Bullet seating always seemed the hardest. Which ain't that bad. Most of my gun's a kiss will do. Boxer is wrong I find pressure before I really get interested with seating depth.
Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Originally Posted by leelou30
Originally Posted by dogcatcher223
You guys fail to realize, you are all trying to get to the same place...an accurate load. Less vertical spread my show up on a ladder test, but it also shows up on the chrony.
Different powders have different burning rates which shoot at different speeds. also the bigger the case the bigger the difference between shots through a chrono. It may show on a chrono but like the gentlemen said a chrono just shows speed. a speed at which you can use to build your dope for long range "hunting". after you waist your time of "ladder testing".
There is only (1) Super Hornet,bless your heart. Perhaps PM some more of The Paper Hat Brigade,to see if you can correctly ID it,in 4 tries. Laffin'!
Boxer
You are a true dumbazz of epic proportions and a "legend in your own mind"!
I should have known you were to just too damn stupid/concieted to catch the irony of a 338-408 Big Baer being called a Super Hornet.
You must have been like a pig looking at a wristwatch with the glazed look in your eyes with that. All you do is rub your nose on it, squeal and get it dirty.
Whatta dickusheadus!
Really laffin at your sheer stupidity now!!!
Go back to your mirror and gin up some more "lookin at me" photos, cause you add nothing to the conversation.
Well if nobody else will enter the conversation and share the method they've used with success....
I find most people want my advice on everything, so here you go.
I seat the bullet out as far as it will go and I add as much powder as I see fit. I don't pay any attention to reloading manuals because those are for rookies. I watch the chronograph until the number is as large as I expect it to be. When that number is big enough, I look through my spotter to make sure it's MOA or better at 100yds.
Then I shoot at 300 to make sure the rifle is still grouping sub-MOA. Then I load a schit ton of ammo and shoot until I'm out of ammo and hopefully I took the time to write down how much powder I used and I just load more of the same.
Travis
You are work'n yourself too hard. Do the same but:
1) Leave out the chronograph. Velocity-who cares? as long as the case is full. 2) Write down the powder charge? You have to weigh it to right down the weight. Another waste of time.
Keep things simple!
Hint: A sized/primed case is the only powder scoop you need. Just fill it up and compress.
You are work'n yourself too hard. Do the same but:
1) Leave out the chronograph. Velocity-who cares? as long as the case is full. 2) Write down the powder charge? You have to weigh it to right down the weight. Another waste or time.
Keep things simple!
Hint: A sized/primed case is the only powder scoop you need. Just fill it up and compress.
Usual disclaimer applies.
You have a lot to learn about simultaneously living like a slob, and achieving precision.
If you guys want to strap on your rollerblades, helmet and spandex, and skate back and forth to your 500yd target to look at patterns from random ammo that you lobbed, then who am I to stop you?
If you own an accurate setup, it is actually pretty easy to find a load. Find pressure and work backwards.
You are work'n yourself too hard. Do the same but:
1) Leave out the chronograph. Velocity-who cares? as long as the case is full. 2) Write down the powder charge? You have to weigh it to right down the weight. Another waste or time.
Keep things simple!
Hint: A sized/primed case is the only powder scoop you need. Just fill it up and compress.
Usual disclaimer applies.
You have a lot to learn about simultaneously living like a slob, and achieving precision.
Travis
Your welcome!
ps I forgot to tell you another way to keep it simple is use only one powder. Norma R1 is my pick. Works for everything!
If you guys want to strap on your rollerblades, helmet and spandex, and skate back and forth to your 500yd target to look at patterns from random ammo that you lobbed, then who am I to stop you?
If you own an accurate setup, it is actually pretty easy to find a load. Find pressure and work backwards.
The funny thing is, you guys think a ladder test is really showing you somthing. All it is showing you is range of charge weights to try during load development. The same thing can be found by working backwards from pressure, or looking in a book for that matter.
If you guys want to strap on your rollerblades, helmet and spandex, and skate back and forth to your 500yd target to look at patterns from random ammo that you lobbed, then who am I to stop you?
If you own an accurate setup, it is actually pretty easy to find a load. Find pressure and work backwards.
The funny thing is, you guys think a ladder test is really showing you somthing. All it is showing you is range of charge weights to try during load development. The same thing can be found by working backwards from pressure, or looking in a book for that matter.
Which book? They will routinely show a wide variance for min-max powders and actual pressure test with stain guages show you can have as much as 7000 PSI variance by changing primers. Now add variances of cases, bearing surfaces, throat lengths and you are all over the map. The book data is for standard chambers, throats etc and not custom configurations and wildcats, many of which have no book.
yes, the books are a starting point and that is all.
Umm, the ladder test only shows you a starting point too.
Not really, the ladder takes your starting points from the book or other sources and runs it up to pressures IF you do it right and then gives you normally two nodes which you can fine tune in. I normally go to book max at the upper end for the upper end of the ladder and a little more to see pressures, but often do not even shoot all of them if I am hitting more pressure signs or hit target MV with a node.
I will normally take the middle of the node at the MV range I want, shoot groups .1 up and down then tune seating depths from the final powder grain selection.
The funny thing is, you guys think a ladder test is really showing you somthing. All it is showing you is range of charge weights to try during load development. The same thing can be found by working backwards from pressure, or looking in a book for that matter.
100:
200:
300:
522:
Ok, now you've given us not any more info than boxer and dropped down to posting pictures.
I expect more of you.
While I"m convinced I get further quicker by Audette, instead of just quoting the damn mantra, tell me HOW you get to where you do. STEP by STEP.
Such that myself and others could compare.
Hell we may all be doing the same thing and using differnet words...???
Seriously, find max pressure by chrono? But how do you account for all the variations in ways to get to max speed? Its fairly well known that depending on what routes you take in a given cartridge/firearm, you can hit max pressure at a multitude of speeds.
Once you have found pressure, then what do you do to find the best accurate load once you have a point of no mans land that you won't venture into again.
Which btw I generally find on the fist 10 single rounds out of a barrel.
Certainly while I believe books, I don't think I've EVER had the exact components listed in a book and they rarely delve into twist, number or type of rifling, chamber types etc... much less brand of brass or more rightfully so capacity of brass etc...
Ok, now you've given us not any more info than boxer and dropped down to posting pictures.
I expect more of you.
You didn't ask for more.
Ive repeatedly ask for more than kiss find pressure rock on. More than once I am 99% sure. Not directly to you, but to other posters that only say ladders are not the best way to go, in words not quite the same.
If ladders ain't it, offer HOW to do it better.
If you'll note, I've done the same on my end, offer how/why I use what I do...
Others, nothing but useless words and waste of time and not helping anyone at all other than having to read through more mumbo jumbo..
Good bless those that were born with the knowledge to do things the best way and perfectly from their birthing day....
The unfortunate part about this thread, is that it has deteriorated to the point that the guy yelling the loudest, and the most, thinks he's right. If more than two shots are fired, then it's a ladder. Chronographs are useless and are not to be trusted. All strings/ladders have to be shot at 600 yards, and ignore wind and environmental influences, even though they contribute to both vertical and horizontal stringing. Barrels move as much as .001" perfectly vertical, every time the trigger is pulled. A huge sample is required to get accurate SD numbers. And of course, Kiss, find pressure, and rock on.
These are just some of gems pulled from this thread. At this point, how, or why, anyone would want to even attempt to contribute is beyond me, as it has become more about being right, than sharing knowledge.
As I said from the start, more than one way to do things, and end up at the same place...
Well ya can always try to save a thread.... I'm stubborn in case you didn't know...
If you didn't have someone telling otehrs theirs is the only way to start with it would be a civil disagreement type discussion....
And the damndest thing, the OP wanted ideas on how to do things, specifically about the Audette, and its been bashed to death. Even though he didn't ask about other methods, had others been civilly cited and actually explained, I think we'd have been a better thread here.
There is one common denominator though about how it got ruined to start with.
Chronographs are not worthless. You aren't concerned with the actual velocity (unless you are getting some unrealistic numbers based on what the cartridge is known for). You are concerned with the deviation in velocity between each identically loaded round fired.
Chronographs are not worthless. You aren't concerned with the actual velocity (unless you are getting some unrealistic numbers based on what the cartridge is known for). You are concerned with the deviation in velocity between each identically loaded round fired.
I don't think I ever said they were, but you like I are probably responding to a different post than mine. Quick reply ya know.
Of course I dont' want to be looking for that deviation until I know where max is and I know where its likely to be the most accurate to start with...
The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
My methodology is pretty similar after I have done basic research to determine, bullet,primer, and powder combo I want to use/test for each ladder. Now this might be many reloading manuals, others recommended loads, Qload, etc, but I find a "suspected" powder, primer, bullet and case and then work a load that is normally about 2-3 grains below max to 1-2 grains over at .2 to .3 increments depending on case size. Normally this is 15-25 bullets only with 4-5 extra of the lowest charge for initial zero on the other target.
I use the smaller increments as I am looking for a node that often is only .5 to max 1.0 wide and this gives me a easier way to determine it.
1. Shoot ONLY in early morning or evening in no wind conditions.
2. minimum of 300 yards prefer 400. I have found that seems to be the ideal distance for enough vertical dispersion as the bullets walk up and close enough to see each separate bullet impact with good spotting scope on white target. Shorter makes it to difficult to determine impacts and longer makes it too difficult again to see any impacts.
3. 35P chrono is used.
4. Minature paper target at bench to plot each round and another sheet to write down each MV for each round. That way I do not lose track of any bullet shot as each is numbered on plot sheet and anytime I go down range to verify impact. I also mark each shot on the 35 P paper as it is shot.
5. Minimum of 1 minute between shots from starting dirty bore, I usually zero at that distance on another target at the side to confirm accurate zero for bottom of ladder target which is normally large plain white cardboard with 1" aiming dot near bottom. I use .3 grain for large cases and .2 for smaller cases as increments.
6. If I am not 100% sure of bullet location, I either walk down or I often use use colored magic markers(4-5 colors) alternating on bullet tips which show up on target. No they will not vary impact points on target. That is used all the time at 1K BR to identify any crossfires on your target.
7. MV as you go up will be linear (ie roughly same FPS each bullet) until you hit a node and then it tends to decrease dramatically for that 2-4 shots and then jump linear again. You will see 3-4 rds with small MV variances normally in the node and then jump dramatically again. You can see on a magnum a jump of 20 FPS and then 3 bullets around 6-8 fps along then it will jump again back to around 20. This is only an example, not always.
Combination of bullet AND MV grouping confirms node and is usually easy to see when you compare the two!! You will have multiple bullets with similar vertical impacts and very low dispersion on MV.
8. I pick a middle node, shoot groups to confirm basic accuracy and ES, SD nodes. I normally find 2 mabye three nodes, and one will be in the MV range I am looking for. Many times the top one is at the starting of high pressure point, so often do not use that one. Middle of the node gives me enough variance on temps and other factors that I am not out of the node on any given day. I do not focus on the lowest ES/SD. Once I find a node then it is an "acceptable ES/SD and tight grouping that is confirmed. I normally shoot for single digit ideally but low teens is acceptable with the grouping.
I determine pressure by case head expansion measured with a blade mic, primers (but not always accurate as some are softer than others) etc. It is a combination of everything that leads me to determine I am at high pressure. I take it until is see firm signs of pressure and then stop even if I have not shot all the shots IF I am at an acceptable MV and see good nodes.
9. I then try groups at various seating depths at my best grouping and see what depth it likes. For a single shot gun start, .010 in the lands and come out. Magazine gun, start at max magazine COAL and in from there. I start .010 in, come out at .030, .050, .080 and .120 IF a single shot gun. One will be much tighter and then work in between to find the place normally down to .010.
10. If the gun will not shoot 1 MOA, that makes shooting a ladder a little difficult as you do not know what is the real vertical or 3-4MOA grouping "inability", so IMO it is not for every gun.
11. If a gun will not shoot with all this, then another ladder with another powder or bullet combo.
I have proven this is repeatable and capable of taking a new rifle to winning in competition is under 50 rds fired.
My methodology is pretty similar after I have done basic research to determine, bullet,primer, and powder combo I want to use/test for each ladder. Now this might be many reloading manuals, others recommended loads, Qload, etc, but I find a "suspected" powder, primer, bullet and case and then work a load that is normally about 2-3 grains below max to 1-2 grains over at .2 to .3 increments depending on case size. Normally this is 15-25 bullets only with 4-5 extra of the lowest charge for initial zero on the other target.
I use the smaller increments as I am looking for a node that often is only .5 to max 1.0 wide and this gives me a easier way to determine it.
1. Shoot ONLY in early morning or evening in no wind conditions.
2. minimum of 300 yards prefer 400. I have found that seems to be the ideal distance for enough vertical dispersion as the bullets walk up and close enough to see each separate bullet impact with good spotting scope on white target. Shorter makes it to difficult to determine impacts and longer makes it too difficult again to see any impacts.
3. 35P chrono is used.
4. Minature paper target at bench to plot each round and another sheet to write down each MV for each round. That way I do not lose track of any bullet shot as each is numbered on plot sheet and anytime I go down range to verify impact. I also mark each shot on the 35 P paper as it is shot.
5. Minimum of 1 minute between shots from starting dirty bore, I usually zero at that distance on another target at the side to confirm accurate zero for bottom of ladder target which is normally large plain white cardboard with 1" aiming dot near bottom. I use .3 grain for large cases and .2 for smaller cases as increments.
6. If I am not 100% sure of bullet location, I either walk down or I often use use colored magic markers(4-5 colors) alternating on bullet tips which show up on target. No they will not vary impact points on target. That is used all the time at 1K BR to identify any crossfires on your target.
7. MV as you go up will be linear (ie roughly same FPS each bullet) until you hit a node and then it tends to decrease dramatically for that 2-4 shots and then jump linear again. You will see 3-4 rds with small MV variances normally in the node and then jump dramatically again. You can see on a magnum a jump of 20 FPS and then 3 bullets around 6-8 fps along then it will jump again back to around 20. This is only an example, not always.
Combination of bullet AND MV grouping confirms node and is usually easy to see when you compare the two!! You will have multiple bullets with similar vertical impacts and very low dispersion on MV.
8. I pick a middle node, shoot groups to confirm basic accuracy and ES, SD nodes. I normally find 2 mabye three nodes, and one will be in the MV range I am looking for. Many times the top one is at the starting of high pressure point, so often do not use that one. Middle of the node gives me enough variance on temps and other factors that I am not out of the node on any given day. I do not focus on the lowest ES/SD. Once I find a node then it is an "acceptable ES/SD and tight grouping that is confirmed. I normally shoot for single digit ideally but low teens is acceptable with the grouping.
I determine pressure by case head expansion measured with a blade mic, primers (but not always accurate as some are softer than others) etc. It is a combination of everything that leads me to determine I am at high pressure. I take it until is see firm signs of pressure and then stop even if I have not shot all the shots IF I am at an acceptable MV and see good nodes.
9. I then try groups at various seating depths at my best grouping and see what depth it likes. For a single shot gun start, .010 in the lands and come out. Magazine gun, start at max magazine COAL and in from there. I start .010 in, come out at .030, .050, .080 and .120 IF a single shot gun. One will be much tighter and then work in between to find the place normally down to .010.
10. If the gun will not shoot 1 MOA, that makes shooting a ladder a little difficult as you do not know what is the real vertical or 3-4MOA grouping "inability", so IMO it is not for every gun.
11. If a gun will not shoot with all this, then another ladder with another powder or bullet combo.
I have proven this is repeatable and capable of taking a new rifle to winning in competition is under 50 rds fired.
Very nice writeup. I appreciate folks taking the time as I may be able to use info, you never know when its time to tweak your method.
FWIW, not that any one on this thread cares, but I did a similar run once... new barrel, brand new AR. Seating depth limited by mag length except for 600 yard stuff. Ran 10 shots, picked middle of cluster. Shot the rifle 3 times at 200 for a rough zero. Shot a 50 shot match Saturday. Went to a leg match Sunday and tied the range record for service rifle and tied the 600 yard record for service rifle. One of a couple of 495s in legs shot that year in the whole US. Like I said, not that it'll mean anything to lots of folks, but the method works. And works well for those in a hurry to start, and well enough to win some fairly serious matches. And the worst of it all.... All five 9s I shot, were all me....
The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
Big Stick, aka boxer, has posted a pic heavy explanation in several threads on several different sites, most recently this site. Start at the start.... That's "asrealasitgets" (hint)
The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
That's not true. I explained my method as well.
Travis
Yes you did but Gibby really got real with it by eliminating a TON of unnecessary BS that you threw in there to avoid a possible lawsuit with 'Flave Precision.
I sniffed that out early in your post and realized it couldn't be seriously considered.
The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
My version of KFPRO:
The first thing I do is grab a sized case and a bullet of choice, seat the bullet long, color the ogive with a sharpie, and chamber. Inspect the bullet for rifling marks, re-colour, seat deeper as required, and repeat until the length of the rifling engraving is the same as the width. Kiss complete.
Next I consult some reloading manuals and QL, and pick a suitable powder for the task at hand, then determine what the max velocity is that I should see with my rifle, barrel length, and chosen components. I note what charge is likely to give me that velocity, based on multiple sources, and load up about 10 rounds with a ~10% charge increase with each round, starting a few grains below where I think I'll get max velocity, and ending a couple grains above. Then I fire these over the chrono, stopping either when I hit the expected velocity, or when I see multiple/obvious traditional pressure signs, whichever comes first. Then once I know roughly where my powder charge is going to be, I load up 4 rounds at that charge and shoot them over the chrono. This way I can get a semi-meaningful average velocity reading from the chrono, to confirm target velocity.
Then I rock on....
If that fails to perform the way I expect (rare), then I investigate a couple of charge increments below the max load I've been testing. I have also seen a gain in performance on occasion from doing the same thing with seating depth, but kissing the lands is a good place to start, since you can always back off without raising pressure, if needed for best accuracy.
As an aside, I think it's worth pointing out that there is a difference between finding an accurate load, and finding a robust load that is tolerant to variation (weather, powder charge, powder lot variation, throat erosion, etc). The Audette method, OCW method, etc, are meant to find a load that is robust and tolerant to minor changes in load or conditions. Finding an accurate load is mechanically favoured by starting the bullet in contact with the rifling, and burning the powder charge at max pressure, which typically causes modern, double-based powders to burn more completely and consistently than when burned at lighter charges and lower pressures. KFPRO is really about giving your load mechanical and physical advantages from the get go.
If I'm trying to find a robust load, then I prefer increasing powder charge in 10% increments and firing at 200-300 yards, round-robin style with 5 shot groups. Then take the average POI of each group, and identify which loads have roughly the same POI. Then I take the middle load and work on seating depth until I have the performance I need. I rarely need to shy away from the kiss at this stage.
After testing the load at various ranges out to 1000 or beyond, depending on the rifle and its intended use, I call it good. The vast majority of the time this is all over and done with within 20-40 rounds, sometimes less, rarely more.
I think Jordan's method for KFPRO is basically what has been mentioned by others, but in more detail. Seems like a solid post describing his methods.
A few comments on his KFPRO and the ladder...
The appeal of the ladder method appears to be the idea that you don't need to think. Just start shooting and the final load will be somewhere in one of the "nodes" that appears. The method "shows" you where to focus.
With the KFPRO method, the user already knows where he wants to start. Somewhere near max pressure. I suspect that many if not most handloaders already have a target velocity in mind, as Jordan mentioned. Nodes below this target velocity are not of interest to many. So the ladderer and KFPRO could be fine-tuning in the same exact area, but got there by different routes. The ladderer is searching for the nodes and then chooses one of them, while the KFPRO guy is going direct... to his predetermined velocity, which is some step down from max pressure.
Again, the KFPRO guy finds pressure (or velocity) and then fine tunes at some level below max pressure. He knows the upper limit, and shoots multi-shot groups below max. If accuracy is not there, he may go down a step. Probably not too far though. More than likely there is a small velocity window (say 100 fps) that he wants his final load to be within before changing a component.
So in my view, the final velocity window really isn't a huge area. Say the window is 100 fps, and the target velocity for the final load is 2950fps. That means we are looking at charges that produce velocities between 2900-3000fps. If the KFPRO dude doesn't get what he wants here, he can't go up. He's already working in a safe area some step below max pressure. He could go down, but I don't think many people want their 162gr AMAX going 2800 fps when they were looking for 2950 fps. Maybe I am wrong on that one though.
The ladderer works up and looks for nodes. The problem I see is that single samples are used for each charge weight. I don't think anyone here can argue the fact that a couple of shots could be pulled and make a random group "look" like a node. False positive? Or to think of it in another way... what competitions are done with single shot groups? Silly-wet? If single samples are valid, why don't we use them more often in R&D?
I recall Rost asking about 0.1gr increments for the ladder. I think this is interesting, not from a charge weight viewpoint, but simply a greater sample size. Not to pick on Rost, but I also recall him using the ladder, then fine-tuning with more mini-ladders, 10-shot groups, or prolonged shooting (over several weeks I think). So although ladderers say that the method works with single samples, at some point the sample size must be increased.
Now let's say that the ladder is done with a couple shots pulled in the node closest to max pressure/velocity. In other words, the node was not revealed. He might be missing a fast & accurate load due to a couple pulled shots, no? He doesn't even look here because the ladder didn't "show" a node even though it was there. False negative? I have a hard time believing that an entire ladder could be done without a single shooter error. But isn't that what is needed if there is only one shot for each charge... absolutely error free shooting? Who can do that, besides Flave?
This leads to Jordan's Robust method. He is not going direct like his KFPRO, BUT at least he's using a 5-shot sample for each charge. Statistically significant? Probably not, but I don't think anyone could argue that its not better than a single sample. The only issue I see with any round-robin is the multiple targets, if that is the method used. I think one of the earlier links posted used a round-robin but only on one target (Baney method?) which helps minimize one variable.
The only person on this thread who has offered an explanation of the methods he uses is Jordan, and even then, no explanation of the KFPRO method can be found.
That's not true. I explained my method as well.
Travis
Yes you did but Gibby really got real with it by eliminating a TON of unnecessary BS that you threw in there to avoid a possible lawsuit with 'Flave Precision.
I sniffed that out early in your post and realized it couldn't be seriously considered.
People think I'm joking and I'm not.
Seat as far out as I can (If I can kiss the lands I do but not all mag confines are going to allow for that) and I work up based on the chronograph readings to make sure I'm not selling myself short. I have no desire to turn my 22-250 into a .222.
That's it. Go shoot. I will say I rarely shoot past 1,000yds. But I'm far more prone to start ripping a rifle apart if it isn't grouping the way I expect it to, as opposed to going back to the load bench.
The beauty of a kiss,is that it's a known quantity and both the Start and Finish Line.
Hint.
'Hunter,
You are in so [bleep] far over your pointy head,that it's a [bleep] shame you don't have the 17 IQ points requisite,to savvy. Congratulations?!?
Who chews your food for you and dresses you in the mornings? You poor poor stupid [bleep].
Wow +P+!
Gibby,
In fairness,I remain a fan of compressed loads and their propensity to bolster nice ES/SD constants.
Hint.
'223,
Only fair to let them "educated" welllll beyond their intelligence,extoll their "findings". Funny schit!
Impressive,that there are this many stupid [bleep],in one herd.
Laffin'!
rost',
Funny part is,in another 20yrs you'll come clean on the newfound "surprise",that you were a clueless dumbfhukk 20yrs ago.
Sweetie,the ONLY one "surprised"...will be you. Congratulations?!?
Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always gonna be better served by simply shutting the [bleep] up and taking notes. Here's to the decades long run,of you being too [bleep] stupid to even do that.
Laffin!
Please consider beating the drum longer/louder on your proposed Imagination And Pretend Board. Be funny to have you Window Lickers in one pile,perpetually doing your best to outdumbfhukk one another,with your drooling dumbfhukktitude.
Hilarious schit...thanks for doing your best!
Rman,
I do believe you are onto sumptin'...with "kiss,find pressure and rock on".
Personally,I see the thrust bein' rather tough on ladders. Prolly 'cause I shoot more than a smidge.
Laffin'!
'lia,
I enjoy that you don't have to Pretend to be too [bleep] Stupid,to savvy: kiss,find pressure and rocking on.
Perhaps consider stomping your itty-bitty feet and holding your breath,during the next Hissy Fit as you scream yet again "I don't care...I don't care". Jeezus [bleep],you poor poor stupid [bleep] relish in your incredible Dumbfhukktitude.
Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
'mountain,
I never ain't not painted a crystalline picture,thus the humor of The Paper Hat Brigade's perpetual Whining,while they do their "best".
FUNNY schit!
'flave,
I've seen me take a new rifle and gun the first 10 or 15 pokes literally from the hip,in a pressure finding excersize,conjoined with laying moly down the spout. That in mebbe a 1.5gr swing at most,because I've a coupla/few hundred barrels of familiarity to reflect upon.
'Course such simplicity,will REALLY [bleep] with Window Lickers and their ladders.
Just sayin'.(grin)
Not that this schit and these incredibly srtupid [bleep] doing their best,ain't a [bleep] hoot.
The appeal of the ladder method appears to be the idea that you don't need to think. Just start shooting and the final load will be somewhere in one of the Now let's say that the ladder is done with a couple shots pulled in the node closest to max pressure/velocity. In other words, the node was not revealed. He might be missing a fast & accurate load due to a couple pulled shots, no? He doesn't even look here because the ladder didn't "show" a node even though it was there. False negative? I have a hard time believing that an entire ladder could be done without a single shooter error. But isn't that what is needed if there is only one shot for each charge... absolutely error free shooting? Who can do that, besides Flave?
Even if you shoot perfectly, who's to say a little lick of wind didn't come up at the 400 yard line with a bit of an updraft component? Your 600 yard target would show skewed results, and you wouldn't even know it, having fired only one shot of each charge...
[quote=Jordan SmithEven if you shoot perfectly, who's to say a little lick of wind didn't come up at the 400 yard line with a bit of an updraft component? Your 600 yard target would show skewed results, and you wouldn't even know it, having fired only one shot of each charge... [/quote]
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
Interesting now that we see some of the Kiss methods.
Very similar to what folks do with Audette.
About the only thing different is running to max and assuming its the best load you'll get accuracy wise.
And thats why I wanted someone to explain what was going on.
If Stick posted it somewhere earlier, then it was pretty easy to reference that post. ANd would have been appreciated.
FWIW I have not always found max pressure is best accuracy. Nor has engaged either, but with N500 powders it has been max pressure is almost alwyas best accuracy.
And then if we look at it a bit more, regardless of if you agree or not, everything so far posted is a form of Audettes theory in one way or another. But if you don't like calling it that or a ladder we dont' really care what you call it.
And finally its nice to have someone admit that not everyone chases the same thing. Some will accept less accuracy for more speed. Some need more accuracy, and can accept some loss of very top end speed. Some want only the very best accuracy.
Jason, you are very right, anyone would be a fool to just blindly trust the first result from a ladder. But instead of shooting 10 groups of 5 shots, I"ve only shot 10 shots and done it very quickly. From there I have an area to work with. And confirmation for me takes quite a bit of shooting before I'm comfortable risking taking it to try to win an important match or take a long shot at game. Just so I know that yes its a good load, but whats the WORST it will do on any given day.
I don't think I've ever done 0.1 increments on a ladder, but I have done those in final load testing.
Interestingly enough I still stand by the fact you can use a chrono for guidance, but teh true test for max velocity is pressure. Every setup can have its own quirks. We proved that a long time ago playing with a particular bullet. And many different brands of barrels with the same chamber. Then you can coat or not coat both barrel and bullets... all of it can make a difference.
You have to trust pressure signs and that can even vary with hardness of brass. FC in 223 is a PRIME example of brass blowing primer pockets out well before you'd reach what you'd think would be even close to a hot load speed wise.
I'd MUCH prefer to chase pressure with an actual pressure gauge setup on each barrel, but I have not afforded the money or time to do that, though I do have a friend that did some testing for me because he was concerned on pressure on a short range load I was playing with that the speed could not be safe pressure. And it actually played out about where I thought it would from what I saw on brass and measured RE case head expansion.
Of course as I"ve noted before, I've taken one AR15, ran a quick audette in it, ( and yes, I did not note on my post RE how I do it, that I am starting with a well educated guess from research or prior knowledge before I even start an audette) grabbed the middle of a top end cluster and have never even done any more. It gives enough speed, has never shot worse than 3/4 moa and genearlly around .5/.6 moa, and for a 200-300 yard deer rifle, its all I'll ever need.
I even agree with Travis to an extent... typically if the gun doesn't shoot with proven combo, then it generally isn't going to shoot... I"ve proven that a few times running more Audette with differing combos searching... and if I did find something... then it kinda makes me spooky realizing I may have found the answer but that answer is very narrow.
We had one Krieger once... for some reason I finally got it to shoot where I wanted with one of the worst primers I'd ever tried. Rem 6.5s. I try to keep on hand a 1000 or so of every primer made in case I run into an issue where I'm close, but not quite where I want to be. I"ve seen primers make a big difference, but had never seen anything good out of the 6.5s in a 223 case... ok, but not good. But that one tube... for some reason, unexplained to me, it worked best.
[quote=Jordan SmithEven if you shoot perfectly, who's to say a little lick of wind didn't come up at the 400 yard line with a bit of an updraft component? Your 600 yard target would show skewed results, and you wouldn't even know it, having fired only one shot of each charge...
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion [/quote]
I would shoot them all at night, save for the reason the Audette is the first rounds through the barrel and I want to see what the Chrono is saying too.... Maybe I should invest in the newest ones that go by sound only IIRC... then I could shoot em all at night.
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
Why is it that the prevailing thought seems to be that barrel harmonics only affect the vertical, not the horizontal? Do barrels not oscillate in both axis?
Now, I'm one of those that has found some merit in a ladder test, depending on my goals, but my own results have shown me that it is wrong to discount horizontal dispersion. Instead, when looking for a node, I go for the range of charges that gives the smallest dispersion in both the vertical and horizontal. I have tried it both ways, looking for the least vertical only and picking the the smallest group out of the range of charges, and have enjoyed better results when picking the node that has both the least vertical and horizontal dispersion. Barrels simply do not oscillate in only the vertical axis, but rather in both.
Much of the bickering back and forth between methods has to do with what the desired outcome is. If it is to find the best load that rifle is going to shoot, especially with thrown charges, the ladder has merit.
If the desired outcome is to get results good enough to hit the size target you are shooting at, at the ranges you shoot at, then the KFPRO method will often provide results that are plenty good enough.
That's another thing I haven't seen mentioned. Wasn't one of the primary purposes of the Audette method to find a range of charges where the rifle shot well so as to minimize the effect of variances in thrown charges?
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
Why is it that the prevailing thought seems to be that barrel harmonics only affect the vertical, not the horizontal? Do barrels not oscillate in both axis?
Now, I'm one of those that has found some merit in a ladder test, depending on my goals, but my own results have shown me that it is wrong to discount horizontal dispersion. Instead, when looking for a node, I go for the range of charges that gives the smallest dispersion in both the vertical and horizontal. I have tried it both ways, looking for the least vertical only and picking the the smallest group out of the range of charges, and have enjoyed better results when picking the node that has both the least vertical and horizontal dispersion. Barrels simply do not oscillate in only the vertical axis, but rather in both.
Much of the bickering back and forth between methods has to do with what the desired outcome is. If it is to find the best load that rifle is going to shoot, especially with thrown charges, the ladder has merit.
If the desired outcome is to get results good enough to hit the size target you are shooting at, at the ranges you shoot at, then the KFPRO method will often provide results that are plenty good enough.
That's another thing I haven't seen mentioned. Wasn't one of the primary purposes of the Audette method to find a range of charges where the rifle shot well so as to minimize the effect of variances in thrown charges?
John
Agreed, the bullets will routinely NOT walk straight up, but often at an angle. I am looking for the grouping of both horizontal and vertical along with the corresponding MV grouping. So yes, that gives me a range of charges that shoot together. I start in the middle and shoot groups to confirm what the ladder showed and then test seating depth.
As for thrown charges in LR, you had better weigh each and every one. You can get away with thrown charges in some finer powders and shorter ranges, but with the larger grain powders and LR, vertical will eat you up. Seen too many SR guys come and try that and was not pretty.
Some cartridges shoot more accurately at the higher pressures (6BR cases such as Dasher, BRX, BRDX as you can easily get 2950-3000 fps with 105s) and others tend to like it lower. Most 300 WSMs with 210 seem to shoot better at 2800 fps (H4350) while some have shot better at 2950-3025 with powders such as MRP.
Yes RE thrown charges, at least it works out that way and thats to a positive side of results. I will throw charges for short range ammo, at least used out to 200 and sometimes 300 depending. ANd depending on the use out to 600 may throw it there. Typically I weigh it though. But beyond 600 I've never shot a thrown charge. Though I feel I could probably get by with it on the 800 yard line.... but I dont' try it. IMHO long range should equal weighed charges period.
I've shot enough ladders to know there has been a horizontal component fairly often.
I was amazed that you can find a charge area where the next increment actually moves on both axis. So amazed later on I shot it more than a few times and it was repeatable.
Thats why I don't ever want to do load work up without shooting it. I've also shot groups where 2-3 incremental charges, if shot as seperate 5 shot groups or such, actually grouped well... but only if you had the powder charge dead nuts.
If all you want to say is you can't shoot well enough to shoot an audette and just need to go bang, do it anyway you want. And its typically partially the truth as another poster noted, lots of folks can't shoot well enough to shoot an audette. They need a good load and just trigger time.
But those also don't need to be in a long range anything forum at this point in their skill level.
No one was born with perfect skills and loads... some get there at different speeds. And with different needs.
RE bickering, its not bickering here, only a healthy discussion trying to show options that folks may or may not want to incorporate into their methods.
The bickering starts with someone with an azzhole starts using it as their mouth.
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
Didn't realize the 'VA' behind Fredericksburg in your handle.... meant 'Vacuum'
99 out of 100 people can't shoot well enough to create a ladder that's even relevant, particularly at six bills... including me.
I'm largely in the KFPRO camp..... with a heavy emphasis on the Rocking On, which seems the forgotten proponent of this epic argument.
If you cannot shoot good enough and do not have a gun that is that accurate, then many methods will work and KFPRO is good enough if you are happy with the results, but that does not put you into the LR arena either.
The ladder is not for everyone and every gun and every situation.
I am shooting off solid benches with top quality rests using an Oehler 35 P with 4 and 8 ft spacing on screens and ONLY use only it on very accurate guns and I have shot competitive for quite awhile.
Even if you shoot perfectly, who's to say a little lick of wind didn't come up at the 400 yard line with a bit of an updraft component? Your 600 yard target would show skewed results, and you wouldn't even know it, having fired only one shot of each charge...
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
1. Very few locales offer true no wind conditions, even morning and night, particularly across 1000 or even 600 yards. If you're dealing with any topographical terrain features at all, it's a rarity at best. Thermal updrafts, down drafts, etc, are not kind to the Audette method.
2. I'm aware Although barrels move in an elliptical pattern, it's the constant of gravity that we're trying to keep constant, since wind is a crapshoot anyway.
FWIW I have not always found max pressure is best accuracy.
Nobody said it was. Finding the max length and max pressure only leaves one direction to go in load development. Like I said, find pressure and work backwards.
Of course, you guys would rather seat a bullet to some random depth, on top of some random charge and lob them at a 500yd target, thinking you are onto something.
But I need to burn 800 rounds a 1/10th of a grain increments to find the pucking node.
By that time the throat is gone and I have to rebarrel. Luckily I'm doing my shooting in the morning, so it's cooler and the barrel might last another 127 rounds.
But I need to burn 800 rounds a 1/10th of a grain increments to find the pucking node.
By that time the throat is gone and I have to rebarrel. Luckily I'm doing my shooting in the morning, so it's cooler and the barrel might last another 127 rounds.
You need a new scale, you are supposed to go 1/20th of a grain. Don't forget to try 17 different primers.
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
Didn't realize the 'VA' behind Fredericksburg in your handle.... meant 'Vacuum'
99 out of 100 people can't shoot well enough to create a ladder that's even relevant, particularly at six bills... including me.
I'm largely in the KFPRO camp..... with a heavy emphasis on the Rocking On, which seems the forgotten proponent of this epic argument.
Actually, if a shooter doesn't have the skills to create a ladder that is relevant, he also doesn't have the skills to shoot the OCW method, Group shooting method or any other method for that matter.
But I need to burn 800 rounds a 1/10th of a grain increments to find the pucking node.
By that time the throat is gone and I have to rebarrel. Luckily I'm doing my shooting in the morning, so it's cooler and the barrel might last another 127 rounds.
Not sure if you have been following, but I have said that I have taken a new gun, done break in, ladder and final load development in 3 evenings, loaded and won State championship on Saturday. The ladder showed definitive node, groups confirmed and seating was best at in the lands and was pretty easy THAT time.
1. Shoot early morning/late in the evening in no wind condition
2. Your looking for vertical not horizontal dispersion
Didn't realize the 'VA' behind Fredericksburg in your handle.... meant 'Vacuum'
99 out of 100 people can't shoot well enough to create a ladder that's even relevant, particularly at six bills... including me.
I'm largely in the KFPRO camp..... with a heavy emphasis on the Rocking On, which seems the forgotten proponent of this epic argument.
Actually, if a shooter doesn't have the skills to create a ladder that is relevant, he also doesn't have the skills to shoot the OCW method, Group shooting method or any other method for that matter.
If he can't shoot, he can't shoot.
Factory ammo would be just as well.
How good ya gotta shoot.... to know the difference?
In fairness,I remain a fan of compressed loads and their propensity to bolster nice ES/SD constants.
Hint.
I have been loading since I was 14 years old. I am now 60. Early on I realized that if you worked up your best loads using the correct powder with the correct burn rate and taking in the other variables in that particular gun. Top loads,not handgun target loads. In the rifles, most of my best loads were slightly compressed.
Most of the time with a new caliber I can pick that powder 1st off. Doing this by experience and comparing my notes along with the manufactures loading manuals. Experience makes it cheaper.
Now we have the internet. If the Loading data is from a manufacture, I look at. If it is by someone's load you pick up in a forum, I discount it. Unless it is congruent to my own research. The most important thing is to remember is who said what. There are people here that know what they are talking about, but in my experience it is just a few. This post is about powder only obviously.
I am loading right now. So I do not have the time to sift through the ridiculous arguments here. If I was at work like some of you here are. I might play around a little bit.
99 out of 100 people can't shoot well enough to create a ladder that's even relevant, particularly at six bills... including me.
Actually, if a shooter doesn't have the skills to create a ladder that is relevant, he also doesn't have the skills to shoot the OCW method, Group shooting method or any other method for that matter. If he can't shoot, he can't shoot. Factory ammo would be just as well.
How good ya gotta shoot.... to know the difference?
I my opinion a powder ladder developed load may pull 1/4 MOA out of the long range vertical dispersion as a best case.
The more consistent your bullet exit times are and the less barrel oscillation the less will be gained from ladder type load development.
Don't go thinking "Ohhhh yeah, I'll get me a MILF or two".... no, no... it doesn't work that way. You gotta be deep in the streets, you have to be able to instantly discern a sweet foxy MILF.... from a nasty skank MILF. Cause when a MILF goes bad on ya... she goes bad fast. Bad MILFs can lead to terrible things like: Blown heads.... Loose Pockets... and Projectile Dysfunction.
Don't go thinking "Ohhhh yeah, I'll get me a MILF or two".... no, no... it doesn't work that way. You gotta be deep in the streets, you have to be able to instantly discern a sweet foxy MILF.... from a nasty skank MILF. Cause when a MILF goes bad on ya... she goes bad fast. Bad MILFs can lead to terrible things like: Blown heads.... Loose Pockets... and Projectile Dysfunction.
I knew this thread had potential and some good advice.
I my opinion a powder ladder developed load may pull 1/4 MOA out of the long range vertical dispersion as a best case.
The more consistent your bullet exit times are and the less barrel oscillation the less will be gained from ladder type load development.
I'm guessing you're stating this in comparing two accurate loads; one developed by Audette and the other by 100 yard groups or such? It may be correct, but what we are talking about here is why to use the Audette in the first place.
The reason is because the Audette is the quickest way to find an accurate load that simultaneously has the least vertical.
I can't see developing a load with some other method at close range, shooting it at long range where you notice you don't like the vertical it's producing, then deciding you better run some sort of abbreviated Audette to get rid of it. That's wasting time, components, and barrel life.
Same thing goes with all of the other methods. We've pretty much established that the KFPRO method involves running an incremental charge weight ladder. Why the hell not just shoot the damn thing at 300 to 600 yards where there will be far more information gained from doing so? The Audette is a pressure-finding ladder as well, ya just do it at long range shooting at the same POA.
Amazing to me that a complete moron would shoot an incremental charge weight ladder from the hip just to find pressure when the same thing can be done at a target and multiply the information gained by tenfold.
IME, consistent bullet exit times will not give you the most accurate load.
We've discussed that here and many have noted that the load with the lowest SD does not always group the best at long range; it's what's on the paper that matters. A load may very well have THE most consistent exit time (the best SD, ES, most consistent velocity) and be exiting the barrel at the worst time possible during its movement producing groups that suck.
But I need to burn 800 rounds a 1/10th of a grain increments to find the pucking node.
By that time the throat is gone and I have to rebarrel. Luckily I'm doing my shooting in the morning, so it's cooler and the barrel might last another 127 rounds.
Not sure if you have been following, but I have said that I have taken a new gun, done break in, ladder and final load development in 3 evenings, loaded and won State championship on Saturday. The ladder showed definitive node, groups confirmed and seating was best at in the lands and was pretty easy THAT time.
No for some reason Scott is being ? in this thread.
What other method can you use, fire 10 rounds, have a load that you probably don't have to ever tinker with and be more than good enough for most shooters for most uses?
Other than taking one off the internet and trying it blindly, and Scott has sure given me a good 257 wtby load in the past that worked out pretty well... it was about the same number of shots fired... maybe even less.
But to be a complete putz about how many rounds are involved in an audette is ignorant here.
Audette is used so you fire LESS rounds due to barrel life etc...
RE throats not burning out quicker when hot, if you actually are saying they don't burn out quicker when hotter then you've never shot the same exact guns rapid fire vs slower fire. They'll last appx 1000 to 1500 rounds of good accuracy longer in a 223 tube, when run hot and rapid fire only, vs sustained fire or slower only.
Amazing to me that a complete moron would shoot an incremental charge weight ladder from the hip just to find pressure when the same thing can be done at a target and multiply the information gained by tenfold.
I don't mean to be to much smartazz, but if you can't find a place to shoot 400 yards, then you have no business, IMHO, shooting at game at 400. Only as far as you have put it on paper.
FWIW, the Audette will work closer, but the further you are, the easier it is to see as the groups enlarge.
Use the longest distance you have access too.
Dogcatcher.... you know..... the point was evidently no one else can be a smart azz.... geez.... no one would shoot blindly just for MV and we all konw that... but folks shoot ladders and won't admit they are shooting ladders.
Damn sure a bunch of idiots on this thread adn you are starting to be another one for some reason. Ever post your particular method or you gonna have the stupids like Scott and just post pictures, smart comments and nothing of ACTUAL USE?
So, if you dont have access to 300+ yard range, what is the prefered method(s)? OCW?
Dealing with 400 yard hunting shot and below.
OCW was developed to find MOA loads in normal hunting guns with no chrono info needed, in fact they said that repeatedly. If that suits your needs, then it will work.
On going on record to explain how I've changed the excellent Audette ladder load development system.
Using the different colored markers is an excellent idea. The problem i've run into with this is that depending up the distance, caliber size and quality/power of spotting/rifle scope, the shooter may not be able to see the impacts down range "while" shooing the ladder. When shooting a ladder it is necessary to see/know which shot/impact is which. In addition, if you call a bad shot, you need to know which impact is the bad shot.
A friend of mine from Albuquerque taught me a new technique; home made DirtyBird or Shoot N See targets. Targets that leave a large black impact on a light/white colored backing. I take an 8'x4' sheet of plywood or similar sheet of stiff backing material and cut it in two so I have two 4' x 4' sheets. I then buy a roll of black plastic. Mine was about 20' x 8'. I cut that down to 4' x 4' sheets which are stapled to the plywood. I then take a $.97 cent can of white spray can and spray the entire sheet of black plastic, white. Let it dry and add bright orange aim points. Select your desired distance to shoot at and let fly. With my Zeiss 15-45x spotter I can easily see 22 cal hits at 660 yds. When the bullet hits, the white paint, directly around the impact hole, chips off, exposing the black plastic, easily seen at extended distances.
Above you can easily see my LV Steel 1/2 silhouette, used as a sighter target then looking at the right 4'x4' DirtyBird target you can see my ladder; 3 shots upward, 3 shots across (accuracy node) and 2 more shot above that.
That's my target. How I bring loads to the range is new as well. We all know that BR shooters load their ammo at the range. I modify that by bring prepped and charged cases to the range and seat bullets "as necessary". Below is an MTM ammo boxes with 100 prepped and charged cases.
The first row across is my starting row; for example all are 40 gr. The 2nd row has a .2 gr increase (6.5x47Lapua) and so on and so on until the 10th row has 41.8 gr. I take small, light, handheld press to the range with me with the seating die already pre-adjusted to my desired setting depth. At the range, I fire one round at my steel target to confirm a hit and so I can adjust closer to my intended point of impact. In this case the center orange dot on the 4'x4" DirtyBird target. I then start up the ladder, seating one bullet and shooting; marking the POI on a separate sheet of paper. Even with my NF scope set at 22x I can see the hits. Once the ladder has been shot the MTM ammo box should look something like this.
This ladder showed that 40.4, 40.6 and 40.8 gr showed promise. Now, I take the next 3 unloaded, charged, cases from the 40.4, 40.6 and 40.8 gr rows and seat bullets. I shoot each 3 cartridges at individual aiming spots for 3, 3-shot groups to see which group better. I'm especially looking for zero to nil vertical spread. Once I've done that the MTM box should look like this.
At this point I'm hoping to have narrowed it down to 1 or 2 different powder charges; say 40.6 and 40.8 gr. I then want to play a bit with seating depth; loading up 3 more of the same powder charge. Once I've shot those, my MTM box looks like this.
Now I may want to play a bit more with seating depth; going in or out a bit more�.or��in the opposite direction. My box now looks like this.
At this point, it's time to pack up and go home where I don't need to pull any bullets. I might want to play a bit more with seating depth or try different primers but the majority of my Audette Ladder testing is done and all in one trip and I've only shot a max of 31 rounds; saves on components and barrel life.
Questions?
Alan
I would not have a problem running the above ladder at 600 yards without a chronograph. Chronograph isnt really necessary. Only thing a chronograph tells you is how fast its going. My ladder was a bit more work than the one above because I loaded more rounds than I actually needed.
Berger hybrids DO NOT SHOOT IN THE LANDS. Last batch of 3000 6mm 105g Hybrids I got measure .2441 on the pressure ring. Obymeyer barrels have bore diameters that are .002 smaller than just about anyone else. Powder lots change like the weather....
FWIW I have not always found max pressure is best accuracy.
Nobody said it was. Finding the max length and max pressure only leaves one direction to go in load development. Like I said, find pressure and work backwards.
Of course, you guys would rather seat a bullet to some random depth, on top of some random charge and lob them at a 500yd target, thinking you are onto something.
Nobody said that. You do a lot of research to pin down the powder, bullet, primer and case combo BEFORE a round is fired. You should have an pretty good idea of target MV and what will work. We are doing the same thing as you said only in a systematic manner in much less rounds down range than kiss the lands, compress the load and pull the trigger which will work at 300 yards or less on an 18" deer chest, but pinpoint accuracy, no way.
As Dave said, hybrids do not shoot in the lands. I only start VLDs there because they make like it in the lands and it is max pressure. Hybrids I start .010 off. My comp load with 300 WSM and 200 gr hybrids is .080 off. Just my system, not the only way to do it. I like the idea of the MTM box and charged cases IF I can get to the range without spilling them all over.
We are doing the same thing as you said only in a systematic manner in much less rounds down range than kiss the lands, compress the load and pull the trigger which will work at 300 yards or less on an 18" deer chest, but pinpoint accuracy, no way.
I'm loving it...
I'll repeat this for BH:
"I really like the idea of ladder tests, but I have two problems with how they are traditionally done:
1) every barrel and load is subject to some random variation in POI. Only firing 1 shot per charge weight does not adequately take into account this variation
2) wind can and does often have a vertical component in anything but perfectly flat terrain. At any distance much beyond about 200 yards this begins to impact POI
These two sources of variation can skew results and prevent them from being repeatable with a given barrel/load combination. If using a method like this, I prefer the OCW method (which I have used successfully, in addition to the traditional ladder method), as it tends to mitigate these sources of error better, but I usually find excellent results simply by kissing, mashing the pedal, and loading straight ammo.
These were all shot using the kiss/mash pedal method...
"I really like the idea of ladder tests, but I have two problems with how they are traditionally done:
1) every barrel and load is subject to some random variation in POI. Only firing 1 shot per charge weight does not adequately take into account this variation
2) wind can and does often have a vertical component in anything but perfectly flat terrain. At any distance much beyond about 200 yards this begins to impact POI
These two sources of variation can skew results and prevent them from being repeatable with a given barrel/load combination. If using a method like this, I prefer the OCW method (which I have used successfully, in addition to the traditional ladder method), as it tends to mitigate these sources of error better, but I usually find excellent results simply by kissing, mashing the pedal, and loading straight ammo.
These were all shot using the kiss/mash pedal method...
Jordan,
I agree 100% on the wind affecting vertical. Its a known affect in external ballistics but it just gets brushed aside by ladderers. To be fair, I haven't seen Rost comment on how he handles horizontal (wind) in his ladders (ignores it, compensates for it, etc.). It seems like he does his best to shoot in windless conditions.
I did see a ladder posted very early in this thread that had considerable horizontal, but the target read "no wind"!
"I really like the idea of ladder tests, but I have two problems with how they are traditionally done:
1) every barrel and load is subject to some random variation in POI. Only firing 1 shot per charge weight does not adequately take into account this variation
2) wind can and does often have a vertical component in anything but perfectly flat terrain. At any distance much beyond about 200 yards this begins to impact POI
These two sources of variation can skew results and prevent them from being repeatable with a given barrel/load combination. If using a method like this, I prefer the OCW method (which I have used successfully, in addition to the traditional ladder method), as it tends to mitigate these sources of error better, but I usually find excellent results simply by kissing, mashing the pedal, and loading straight ammo.
These were all shot using the kiss/mash pedal method...
Jordan,
I agree 100% on the wind affecting vertical. Its a known affect in external ballistics but it just gets brushed aside by ladderers. To be fair, I haven't seen Rost comment on how he handles horizontal (wind) in his ladders (ignores it, compensates for it, etc.). It seems like he does his best to shoot in windless conditions.
I did see a ladder posted very early in this thread that had considerable horizontal, but the target read "no wind"!
Jason
Here's what all you are missing by questioning a ladder that shows some horizontal dispersion in the node like the one Alan (GSSP) shot with his 6.5X47
Conditions change at long range over small amounts of time. Long range amplifies this at the target. Not so much at the range at which you guys do your development. I hope I don't have to post what 3 mph change in wind (breeze) does to bullet drift at 600 yards as compared to 100 yards for anyone here.
Also, even if you have nailed down a load with some horizontal dispersion that shows ZERO vertical dispersion, it is FAR better than a load that only strings vertically at long range.
If your load is dead nutz as far as drop and you know the range of the target, the ONLY thing a shooter has to worry about is wind drift. Even if your load strings horizontally at every range, it will be better than a load that does the same vertically.
No one can exactly call wind. Everyone can know the exact range.
Even if you develop a load that shoots in the same hole at 1000 yards in a zero wind, when you shoot in reality (wind between you and the target that switches, may be in opposite directions totally between you and the target, etc) you will not be able to shoot it into one hole; it will string horizontally because of wind effect.
With a load that has plenty of random vertical stringing, the shooter has to worry about shooting higher than his aimpoint, lower than his aimpoint as well as left and right of his aimpoint because calling wind is so much of an educated guess.
Just yesterday I had to use .5moa more when the wind kicked up 10mph, this was at 1800 yards..It aint nothing I wasnt aware of, but the fact that it is a variable sure seems vacant in these discussions.
Just yesterday I had to use .5moa more when the wind kicked up 10mph, this was at 1800 yards..It aint nothing I wasnt aware of, but the fact that it is a variable sure seems vacant in these discussions.
Drop data developed out to 1000 yards when used that far past 1000 yards is seldom accurate. Strange things happen as far as BC occur that you are confusing with vertical wind effect.
Tell me how you differentiate vertical wind effect from a load that strings vertically.
Or vice versa..
A load with vertical stringing always strings. Wind causing vertical is rare. Unless you're shooting into a headwind or with a tailwind across hilly terrain that runs perpendicular to your POA
Just yesterday I had to use .5moa more when the wind kicked up 10mph, this was at 1800 yards..It aint nothing I wasnt aware of, but the fact that it is a variable sure seems vacant in these discussions.
Drop data developed out to 1000 yards when used that far past 1000 yards is seldom accurate. Strange things happen as far as BC occur that you are confusing with vertical wind effect.
...not to mention velocity differences being magnified from shot to shot and scope click values being not so perfect.
Just yesterday I had to use .5moa more when the wind kicked up 10mph, this was at 1800 yards..It aint nothing I wasnt aware of, but the fact that it is a variable sure seems vacant in these discussions.
Drop data developed out to 1000 yards when used that far past 1000 yards is seldom accurate. Strange things happen as far as BC occur that you are confusing with vertical wind effect.
You type as if this was my first time shooting that far, you also fail to grasp that I was hitting the target 5min prior to needing to add more ele, aint a scope issue and it aint the first time i've noticed it.
Shooting out that far is a day to day development, due to the slightest changes, you know that of course..Just seeing what the smart kids have to say on the subject..your pointing out the obvious,thanks?
I aint a mathematician,but i'm pretty sure the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, now start throwing curves in there for wind adjustment, coupled with a nearly subsonic bullet and...
This really aint relevant to the thread since we're talking about ELR, but at this point WGAF.
FWIW, I use a pseudo ladder,shot thru a chrono while i'm doing it because it gives me lots of info in a few rounds.
Word..But that same lot of ammo was producing pretty consistent hits prior to the wind picking up.
It was more drastic for my creedmoor at 1400..I just believe there is more to it, where I shoot at least.
I wanted to upload the vid because it would show terrain, I'm shooting over a ravine and several buildings (silo's,equipment sheds}..its always been a tricky spot to shoot from, by tricky i mean PITA.
Please feel free to keep using all the Imagination and Pretend you need,in order to tell yourself that which you most need to hear. Nice touch to do so aloud,so I can laugh at your incredible dumbfhukktitude...as you do your "best". Thanks!
Looking forward to your next whine and the fresh batch of Excuses,from Smoke & Mirror Land. You are doing "great"!
Laffin'!
Jordan,
Do not forget,how "real" Pretend is,to these incredibly stupid [bleep] and their ladders.
Laffin'!
rost',
I see you are starting to buckle. laffin'!
They sooner youy shut the [bleep] up,quit trying to "think" for yourself and apply the notes you start taking...the better of you'll be. That way,in another 20yrs,you needn't come clean yet afgain,on how you were a clueless dumbfhukk.
Bless your heart and pointy head.
Laffin'!
'shooter,
Do not slight the sanctity,of the oblivious humor inherent within wayward ladders. Key here is,to not spook the hole.
Laffin'!
'64,
I'm purty sure that someone rather astute,said veddy veddy early on,that harmonics can easily be massaged,by means other than an Imaginary Ladder.
'Course The Paper Hat Brigade never can listen,which is of course the funniest [bleep] part.(grin)
I can only lead the stupid [bleep] to water...I cain't make 'em drink.
'lia,
Ain't it fascinating,that the ONLY "skills" you need...are your Imagination and Pretend?!?
Right [bleep] proper Dichotomy there.
Google it(Dichotomy),you poor poor stupid fghukkk.
Laffin'!
I enjoy that despite your "BEST" efforts,you remain soooooo far in the dark,that the daylight needs pumped to you. REALLY enjoyed your being too [bleep] stupid to savvy the relationship of a pristine bore,to laying moly,as a prior control to rocking on.
It's ONLY funny,because you are totally [bleep] devoid any semblance of an inkling!
Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
As an aside,does water taste better to you,after you sneak up on the glass?
Re-laffin'!
Gibby,
It's never been to cypher who shoots more than a smidge.
Which is of course the funniest [bleep] part.(grin)
In fairness,I prolly like some powders more than others.
rosco,
The wind don't "matter" in Smoke & Mirrors Land.
Laffin'!
'neth,
You haven't enough Imagination or Pretend,to make your Smoke & Ladder Test "real" to you.
"I really like the idea of ladder tests, but I have two problems with how they are traditionally done:
1) every barrel and load is subject to some random variation in POI. Only firing 1 shot per charge weight does not adequately take into account this variation
2) wind can and does often have a vertical component in anything but perfectly flat terrain. At any distance much beyond about 200 yards this begins to impact POI
These two sources of variation can skew results and prevent them from being repeatable with a given barrel/load combination. If using a method like this, I prefer the OCW method (which I have used successfully, in addition to the traditional ladder method), as it tends to mitigate these sources of error better, but I usually find excellent results simply by kissing, mashing the pedal, and loading straight ammo.
These were all shot using the kiss/mash pedal method...
Jordan,
I agree 100% on the wind affecting vertical. Its a known affect in external ballistics but it just gets brushed aside by ladderers. To be fair, I haven't seen Rost comment on how he handles horizontal (wind) in his ladders (ignores it, compensates for it, etc.). It seems like he does his best to shoot in windless conditions.
I did see a ladder posted very early in this thread that had considerable horizontal, but the target read "no wind"!
Jason
Im' lucky, my personal range is about as flat as you can get, surveyed to about 6 feet difference from berm to 600 yards.
And I am and protected from our normal summer winds by a thick brush line blocking most of that effect..
I actually don't really worry so much, never minding the other nuts on this thread, but I don't stop after 10 shots generally... I have occasionally... but I often chasing accurate loads shoot 3 shot groups of every one in the node and one out each way to boot.
I've read on shooting ladders using 2 or 3 shots each... and its still giving the same result as shooting a bunch of 3 shot groups and overlaying all the targets.
But normally it takes a fair amount of shooting to verify where the best center is and if it will continue to perform. BUT it gives me a good odds at where to start. Better than blindly shooting groups.
Wind driven vertical will show up if its there.
But then in the end, I generally am not using a chrono much at all after the first ladder. Only after I"ve decided by paper results and a few more groups so to speak, will I drag the chrono out to verify a 10 shot group or two, just to see what the ES/SD is.
I have often shot after the first ladder, at night, where I have not much at all to deal with.
What someone has not mentioned either, how much horizontal effect mirage can have on trying to shoot a group or a ladder. Many think its only wind that affects drift of bullets. But mirage can be a bear too. And it can increase, decrease and totally go away. And come back. Everything you see when it changes means a change to impact.
I will NOT correct for wind if I see it in a ladder as I shoot. I'll just deal with what the paper tells me after the fact. Noting that it could affect the impacts.
I think thats what can show sometimes that one shot, close to being in the node by powder charge, but is not in the node really, really out, but the next shot is back in.... that one I kind of discount, but will shoot again to verify.
1 ladder test is sufficient for that particular load? Does anyone repeat to verify?
This is still my biggest Q, I have a very difficult time believing one or even two ladders will provide solid evidence,
A node is a 3 or 4 shot group, but really is just one group,
My rifles/skills are not equal to most here, but my doubt comes from me trying to duplicate my own "nodes/groups",
Some days a particular load is a hammer, other days, the nail.
I have rarely ever shot a ladder again. Only if I had no choice and shot the first in crappy conditions and it doesn't show anything I believe to be true.
Assuming you have some rounds with increasing charges, grouping together, thats where you start shooting 2-5 shot groups with everything in that node.. and as I've noted I generally shoot one each side to prove that that is the start and end of the node. Heck the one on each side might even group fine, but probably will still be H/V out of the group one way or another as to location vs aiming point.
If you have days where a proven load sucks, IMHO thats either you or you not knowing whats going on with conditions.
How many factors can affect where the next bullet hits? A LOT. A lot more than most folks think. Its just not wind. Or temps.
I actually don't really worry so much, never minding the other nuts on this thread, but I don't stop after 10 shots generally... I have occasionally... but I often chasing accurate loads shoot 3 shot groups of every one in the node and one out each way to boot.
I've read on shooting ladders using 2 or 3 shots each... and its still giving the same result as shooting a bunch of 3 shot groups and overlaying all the targets.
But normally it takes a fair amount of shooting to verify where the best center is and if it will continue to perform. BUT it gives me a good odds at where to start. Better than blindly shooting groups.
Wind driven vertical will show up if its there.
But then in the end, I generally am not using a chrono much at all after the first ladder. Only after I"ve decided by paper results and a few more groups so to speak, will I drag the chrono out to verify a 10 shot group or two, just to see what the ES/SD is.
Rost,
This is starting to make a lot more sense in terms of validating the ladder method. So you run a broad sweep of the charges with single-shot samples, find a node, then zoom-in with 3-shot groups of the charges that are in the node. 7mmDave seems to do something similar.
This seems a heck of a lot better than running a broad sweep of the charges, finding a node based on single samples, then picking one load. This is like trying to tune the station with just the coarse knob. By adding the 3-shot phase to your ladder you add samples to the test, but only in the area you think there is accuracy (fine tune) as opposed to a 2-3 shot ladder. But, you could still miss a node during the single-sample phase due to shooter error, etc. correct? The upside is that any "false" nodes are detected and rejected by the 3-shot groups.
I still see merit in finding pressure/velocity quickly by starting very low, and working up. The steps up might be fairly quick so I don't think the ladder provides much value (i.e. shot from the hip if desired), plus I don't care if there is a node that is 200fps below my target velocity. But I still like to begin low, with published start charges. Once pressure/velocity is found, I could see the value of shooting a ladder with tight steps over a 100-150fps window around my target velocity. At this point, the fine tuning phase, there isn't too much difference between the tight mini-ladder vs shooting groups & looking for low SD/ES. The mini-ladder will require another round of 3-5 shot groups but covers the 150fps window quick.
I'd like hear your thoughts on SD and ES in terms of developing an accurate load. I know SD and ES were mentioned earlier in terms of significant sample size but what have been your observations? I also recall some people stating that low SD and ES are not necessary for best accuracy. Mebbe I read that wrong because it don't make sense due to TOF, gravity, etc. If all things are equal, a slower bullet can't hit the same spot as a faster one. There needs to be another variable(s) that makes the shooter "think" it does.
I know Litz has written about this,
"...you can see that reducing muzzle velocity variation from 20 fps Standard Deviation (SD) to 10 fps SD improves hit percentage on a 5" circle at 500 yards from 83% to 93%."
83% to 93% per Litz is nothing to take lightly. It seems that the original KFPRO to find accuracy is based on low SD, which is supported by Litz.
Two things- long range accuracy is hard to accomplish with high SD and ES figures, but you don't necessarily need the lowest SD and ES to achieve best accuracy at distance.
When the bullet exits the barrel during the top of the muzzle's elliptical upswing, velocity variation is mitigated to some extent, as JBurns and rcamuglia pointed out. Faster bullets leave the muzzle sooner, while the muzzle is pointed lower at the target, while slower bullets leave the muzzle later, when the barrel is pointed higher on the target.
So while low SD and ES numbers are always a good thing, there are other factors that can reduce their significance, or even take precedence altogether.
The kiss gives mechanical advantage, and loading to top pressures gives physical advantage. Hint.
The target that I posted above of 5 hits (the screen shot on the app says 4 shots) at 1762 yards with nearly no vertical, was shot using a load with an SD value well above 10, just for conversation...
If all things are equal, a slower bullet can't hit the same spot as a faster one. There needs to be another variable(s) that makes the shooter "think" it does.
You really haven't been paying attention whatsoever.
First, the fact that loads in the node are always tested with group shooting has been stated many times in this thread by everyone who shoots an Audette. How you just picked up on it in Rost's post now in this 79 page thread is amazing
Secondly, the FACT that a lower velocity load can land at the same spot as a faster velocity load has been covered as well. It's called Barrel Harmonics.
If the bullet exit times are during the UPSWING of the barrel, the faster velocity loads exit EARLIER when the barrel is pointing LOWER AT THE TARGET, AND DROP LESS UPON REACHING THE TARGET
The slower velocity loads exit LATER during the swing when the barrel is pointing HIGHER ON THE TARGET, BUT DROP MORE UPON REACHING THE TARGET.
This counteracting combination makes all of the projectiles land as close to the same horizontal plane as possible; NO VERTICAL DISPERSION.
Believe me, I had to read this many times over to really understand it. I think it's because my crossed eyes and drooling yap interfered with my pretend and imagination the entire time my [bleep] was gripping the couch preventing me from going full bore by kissing, finding pressure, and rocking.
Either that, or it was my poor, poor, whining that confused my dumbfuckitude and blessed my heart under my paper hat.
Could have been the Smoke during the Ladder that burned my eyes though.
Believe me, I had to read this many times over to really understand it. I think it's because my crossed eyes and drooling yap interfered with my pretend and imagination the entire time my [bleep] was gripping the couch preventing me from going full bore by kissing, finding pressure, and rocking.
Either that, or it was my poor, poor, whining that confused my dumbfuckitude and blessed my heart under my paper hat.
Could have been the Smoke during the Ladder that burned my eyes though.
I thought you were done trying to convince anyone to buy a ladder?! What happened? Feel left out?
So, you do what Rost does? You use 3-shot groups for EACH CHARGE in the node? Did you mention that anywhere in this thread? If so I apologize.
Please quote or link where you validated the wide sweep, single-shot sample with groups for all charges in the node, as Rost does. Pics would be even better.
This isn't the same as picking the middle charge of the node and shooting a group...
I had some 168gr Berger Classic Hunters (hybrid design) that disagreed with this:
I have a box of 7mm 168g Berger classic hunting bullets. Thats what it says on the box. Berger classics look an awful lot like SMKs to me,and do not resemble VLDs or Hybrids at all. Really dont know what you mean by saying, "Berger Classic Hunters (hybrid design)." VLDs are noted for shooting in the lands. But if you start out that way where are you 500 rounds later? Also,Lets say you run hard in the lands...your in a match and the rangemaster,for what ever reason, calls a "cease fire remove your bolts..." And there you are with a bullet stuck in the lands and powder stuck to all the lube inside your action. And since this is the long range hunting board. Lets say for some reason you unload your rifle in the middle of nowhere and end up with a VLD stuck in the lands 10 miles from the nearest cleaning rod..... I have had VLDs shoot very well for me from time to time. But there a PIA to keep working just from a seating depth point of view.Not to mention what a nice BR action looks like with ball powder stuck all over the inside of it.... I pass on VLDs these days. Mr. Litz. Just about the brightest guy in any room talking loads and seating depths. Says to start the Hybrids at .03 off the lands. Hybrids and VLDs require a different seating stem than conventional bullets. You dont have to use a VLD/Hybrid stem. But the loaded rounds have less runout if you do.
If you're still selling and haven't taken your ladders home , you could really hit a home run with pics of a 3-shot ladder (i.e. 3-shots for each charge weight) to prove repeatability. 5-shot ladder would be even mo better but these multi-shot ladders are rare around these parts ! Gotta admit that it raises the skeptic-meter a touch. Scratch that, it raises it a bunch.
Maybe you posted a 3-shot or 5-shot ladder already? I've been trying to pay attention, but the only multi-shot ladder I recall was on Page-1 and it looks like it reads "no wind" with a bunch of horizontal for identical charges! Guess I am missing something because the Ladder Gang started diagnosing the "node" without paying attention to the above
...(I'm wondering where the horizontal came from when there was no wind?)...
I know it wasn't your ladder, but at least someone posted pics of a multi-shot.
I couldn't care any less what anyone uses for their load development as long as they're happy with the results they get.
Many people are very pleased with food from McDonald's
As I've said many times before, I prefer that anyone I shoot against in a rifle match use something other than the Creighton Audette Method to find their load.
I've posted in this thread that once the node is found, I shoot groups with all of the loads that are obviously in the node to find the one that groups the best. With that load, a seating depth test is done if it even needs one. Pics have been posted. Go back and look.
I owe you an apology, as I remember those pics now. But, were those shot at your standard ladder distance? You shoot your ladders at 400-600 yards? I'm assuming that Rost is shooting his 3-shot groups (the charges in the node) at the same distance as the ladder.
The key to this is that the ladder is validated. 100 yard groups may be ok to test loads, but it doesn't help validate the method which is what I've been asking for. Shooting 3-shot or 5-shot groups at the same distance the ladder is tested would provide more insight. I think this is what Rost and 7mmDave do and why its different than the other ladders I've seen so far.
I had some 168gr Berger Classic Hunters (hybrid design) that disagreed with this:
I have a box of 7mm 168g Berger classic hunting bullets. Thats what it says on the box. Berger classics look an awful lot like SMKs to me,and do not resemble VLDs or Hybrids at all. Really dont know what you mean by saying, "Berger Classic Hunters (hybrid design)." VLDs are noted for shooting in the lands. But if you start out that way where are you 500 rounds later? Also,Lets say you run hard in the lands...your in a match and the rangemaster,for what ever reason, calls a "cease fire remove your bolts..." And there you are with a bullet stuck in the lands and powder stuck to all the lube inside your action. And since this is the long range hunting board. Lets say for some reason you unload your rifle in the middle of nowhere and end up with a VLD stuck in the lands 10 miles from the nearest cleaning rod..... I have had VLDs shoot very well for me from time to time. But there a PIA to keep working just from a seating depth point of view.Not to mention what a nice BR action looks like with ball powder stuck all over the inside of it.... I pass on VLDs these days. Mr. Litz. Just about the brightest guy in any room talking loads and seating depths. Says to start the Hybrids at .03 off the lands. Hybrids and VLDs require a different seating stem than conventional bullets. You dont have to use a VLD/Hybrid stem. But the loaded rounds have less runout if you do.
dave
You'd do well to stick to plagiarism, cuz you're in over your head trying to go solo.
As to the barrel timing (during upward barrel movement), I agreed with you earlier. Its physics. The slower bullet and faster bullet can intersect but won't have the same POI at all ranges.
One problem with the pretty plot that Al shows is that there is no reference to the actual velocities between GOOD and BAD. You can compare the delta between the exit times but this doesn't tell the whole story in terms of bullet acceleration. I couldn't find any supporting documentation for that plot so I think its more of a pretty illustration to show the idea than actual data. For most other plots he provides a description. If you run some rough calcs assuming constant accel like Al does elsewhere you'll see that even a 100 fps difference in bullet velocity won't have the extreme GOOD and BAD that the plot shows. Exit times would still be very close. If you look around his site you can see his plots that show the same.
Also barrel harmonics and vibrations are very interesting and get mentioned a lot by ladderers it seems but, farther down on Varmint Al's page there is an experiment by Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe of Border Barrels.
This was the conclusion (I added bold typeface):
"CONCLUSION.... Maybe the "consensus" was that a rifle barrel vibrated in one or more of the mode shapes when fired. That was because the mode shapes and frequencies were easy to calculate and they did seem to answer some of the questions. From these FEA dynamic pressure calculations, it appears that the recoil and forced deformations are much more important than the natural vibration modes in determining where a barrel is pointing when the bullet exits the muzzle. Then after the bullet exits the muzzle, the rifle barrel vibrates in its various natural frequencies and mode shapes. Put another way, consider a guitar string being plucked. One pulls the string into a position (forced position) then releases it and the string vibrates at is natural frequency. The recoil and bullet motions "pulls" the rifle barrel to a new shape and once the bullet leaves the barrel, then the barrel vibrates. However, the addition of the scope to the model has shown some small high frequency vibrations superimposed on the forced deformations, both of which, slightly alter where the muzzle points before the bullet exits. For lowering the amplitude of the high frequency vibrations, it appears that even an "out of tune" tuner is better than no tuner at all."
So while low SD and ES numbers are always a good thing, there are other factors that can reduce their significance, or even take precedence altogether.
The kiss gives mechanical advantage, and loading to top pressures gives physical advantage. Hint.
Jordan,
Ok, curious what SD and ES numbers have you seen, ballpark, that coincide with good LR loads? I was going to say that even slightly higher SD would eventually come into play at longer ranges but your 1-mile shooting seems to show otherwise.
And to make sure I am understanding this...
Kiss to eliminate the inconsistent bullet jump (ring the bell "through" the bullet, instead of slamming the bullet into the bell?). I think the goal is to ring the bell (barrel) the same way each time the trigger is pulled.
And top pressures for decreased barrel time and consistent burn rate?
I had some 168gr Berger Classic Hunters (hybrid design) that disagreed with this:
I have a box of 7mm 168g Berger classic hunting bullets. Thats what it says on the box. Berger classics look an awful lot like SMKs to me,and do not resemble VLDs or Hybrids at all. Really dont know what you mean by saying, "Berger Classic Hunters (hybrid design)." VLDs are noted for shooting in the lands. But if you start out that way where are you 500 rounds later? Also,Lets say you run hard in the lands...your in a match and the rangemaster,for what ever reason, calls a "cease fire remove your bolts..." And there you are with a bullet stuck in the lands and powder stuck to all the lube inside your action. And since this is the long range hunting board. Lets say for some reason you unload your rifle in the middle of nowhere and end up with a VLD stuck in the lands 10 miles from the nearest cleaning rod..... I have had VLDs shoot very well for me from time to time. But there a PIA to keep working just from a seating depth point of view.Not to mention what a nice BR action looks like with ball powder stuck all over the inside of it.... I pass on VLDs these days. Mr. Litz. Just about the brightest guy in any room talking loads and seating depths. Says to start the Hybrids at .03 off the lands. Hybrids and VLDs require a different seating stem than conventional bullets. You dont have to use a VLD/Hybrid stem. But the loaded rounds have less runout if you do.
dave
I guess Berger doesn't know what they are talking about either.
Originally Posted by Berger's website:
CLASSIC HUNTER BULLET DESIGN For the first time in Berger�s history, we have purposefully designed a line of hunting bullets that conform to the restrictive dimensional standards set by SAAMI. These bullets were designed for hunters that shoot factory rifles and load at magazine lengths. The Classic Hunter bullets are made with a shorter Hybrid shape nose that comply with SAAMI standards; providing hunters the highest ballistic performance possible in factory rifles and standard magazine lengths.
Last pass home,I got a pard's mind right on Iron's. Unlimbered a Winny 69 that's been setting static,installed a taller front sight and bottomed out the aperature rear,sdo as to eek a 50yd zero and then a guy could stretch the Old Gal out and do a leetle sumptin'.
It ain't Annie Iron's..but what is?!?(grin)
'neth,
I couldn't begin to speculate on your 58gr load,as I know nothing of it's chamber dimensions,the throat geometry,COAL latitude and where you are at in kisstitude.
Though I could ring the bell in about 3-pokes.
Hint.
rost',
Cain't wait to hear you mention how [bleep] incredibly clueless you are today...20yrs from now.
Laffin'!
Pay a leetle attention and it'd save you decades.
Wow +P+!
4th,
The key is to ring all the bells and contrary to Window Lickers' beliefs,it ain't not thang to ascertain just that and in veddy,veddy quick fashion.
As to ES/SD,it comes from good componetry and an inkling in their assembly. Bore condition/maintenance is hilarious schit and these stupid [bleep] couldn't sneak up on a glass of water.
Long story short,good ES/SD...will never hurt the equation and I just might look for that very thing. Hint.(grin) That from Rimfire to all thangs Centerfire,in regards to a rifle.
I've seen me be a .003" constriction Moly Slut,kissing the [bleep] outta things for many many moons and many many barrels. The "trick" is to let a new/pristine bore foul and that's a mebbe 12 poke affair at most...then one can start the hunt for pressure,knowing that has become a constant.
Assumin' a seasoned spout,it's just a coupla pokes and Show Time...because one will reliably know well in advance that ES/SD are in his hip pocket,due componet selection and their handling.
Funny how it actually works.(grin)
Not that I don't get a [bleep] kick outta a Smoke & Ladder Treatise by [bleep] Window Lickers doing their "best".
FUNNY schit!
'lia,
Show me the chart,where your "keen" eye and vast "experience",steered you to vote for Obama.
Twice.
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
Laffin'!
Pouty Hunter,
Cat got your tongue or the couch got your kchunt?!?
So while low SD and ES numbers are always a good thing, there are other factors that can reduce their significance, or even take precedence altogether.
The kiss gives mechanical advantage, and loading to top pressures gives physical advantage. Hint.
Jordan,
Ok, curious what SD and ES numbers have you seen, ballpark, that coincide with good LR loads? I was going to say that even slightly higher SD would eventually come into play at longer ranges but your 1-mile shooting seems to show otherwise.
And to make sure I am understanding this...
Kiss to eliminate the inconsistent bullet jump (ring the bell "through" the bullet, instead of slamming the bullet into the bell?). I think the goal is to ring the bell (barrel) the same way each time the trigger is pulled.
And top pressures for decreased barrel time and consistent burn rate?
Jason
As Boxer said, low SD/ES numbers will never hurt, but I've seen good LR loads with little vertical that had an SD over 10 but under 15, and ES usually under 20. Keep in mind, these SD/ES numbers are usually coming from a statistically insignificant sample size, so unless they've come from a whole lot of shots over the chrono, I never put too much stock in them. Results on target matter more to me than SD/ES numbers gleaned from a couple of 5-shot groups, but if SD/ES happen to be sub-10, it doesn't hurt my feelings at all.
Yup, on the kiss. Start a straight bullet (concentricity matters when dealing with accurate rifles typically used for LR play) touching the rifling so as to keep things straight and aligned. Top pressures tend to cause powder to burn efficiently and consistently.
Both of those factors play nicely into keeping things constant and as invariable as possible from shot to shot...
Its not that I dont believe you when you say they shoot in the lands.Lots of bullets shoot in the lands.The reason I avoid them I stated above. To my eye.The classic Berger looks very much,to me, like a SMK or a Berger long range boat tail.I was not aware of the verbiage on there websight. Interestly enough, just checking, Wilson straight line seater stems. Regular against a VLD. The VLD stem "fits" VLD and Hybrid bullets nose profiles perfectly. The classics I have.Wobble in either stem. Although they do seem alittle better in the VLD stem. dave
Jason, A number of years ago a group of short range bench rest shooters had access to a warehouse in Texas.They conducted indoor tests at 200 yards with rail guns and HV 6mm PPC rifles and dialed there rifles down to impossible,crazy, levels of accuracy.There were after all no conditions inside the warehouse. Armed with loads that would agg in the "zeros" they went forth out into the real world and promptly got there collective azzes handed to them by guys who load develop like the rest of us. ... ie outside. Your points about conditions and the vertical aspect of them skewing the results of ladder tests are very valid.But those same vertical aspects of a condition can also skew any test you choose to run.
Thanks for the info on SD & ES. This jives with what the rocket scientist has been saying (Litz). He says to shoot as many as possible, and at least a 10-shot sample.
I've got that article around. I should read it again.
Been meaning to talk to a couple of the US F-T/R guys. A co-worker was going to get them to put on a little reloading class for a few of us. I didn't handload the last time they came to visit at work so the nuclear 308 loads didn't mean much to me then.
I've said a few times in various threads, and in this one too, I think, that I run an Audette, and then I'll run every one in the node I choose.
And continue to run tests up to 10 shot groups as I close in on the one I want.
And FWIW, when folks are talking jam the bullet, thats good by me , but not just kissing. And the ones that run to pressure, are doing a ladder, just to stubborn to admit it. They won't shoot a 3 or 5 shot set of groups to find pressure, they are running one at time. Thats a ladder or in respect to Creighton, an Audette.
Why, at that time, not only admit what you are doing ,but also utilize it. For not only pressure, but to see where the MV is, and to see where the best spots of accuracy might be? 3 birds or so with one stone?
As to SD/ ES.. I have zero clue really. I don't trust em. At all.
I run the chrono at first, just to see if I can even get where I need to be.
Example was first run of 90 jlks in 20 inch 223 service rifles. Tried N550 due to some research. Showed a lot of potential. Accuracy wise on a single Audette. MV was 100 or more FPS below what I needed for it to be worth the effort. I did take the middle of the highest node and shot a 3 shot group, just to see what it would do accuracy wise and reconfirm MV. Group was fine. MV was still low. Had to go to N540. That one worked out.
But had I done it a different way.... I'd have burned a lot more bullets and N550 before realizing it wasn't worth it.
Why I can't tell you about ES and SD is after I know where I'm at, I"ll only pull the chrono again to verify a single 10 shot gropu at the end of my confirmation, which may be after a handful of actual matches. Just so I have reference what MV to chase as the barrel wears and MV drops off.
What I prefer to do, and actually do, is I"ll rarely ever not shoot my final tests at the actual distance and there I trust the paper, not a chrono, as to whats best. Proof in the pudding as they say?
I've not seen it always be as some are insisting, get to max pressure that you will accept and start shooting. That being the best ever load accuracy wise. I'm also not saying shoot a mild load. And I well realize the need for speed, to help yout out on things, especially wind calls. And I appreciate those that shoot slow accurate loads against me and brag on their accuracy in tests... for they will loose every time to me in a match in conditions.
Yet to blindly say anything is the best... is kinda crazy. Just like the statement about bergers and in or out of lands with hybrids... something may be 90% true, but its never 100% true.
Eitehr that or I need a better smith, mine is only a national highpower champion, or better barrels or something...and if someone knows a source, where I could get every last gun built to where all I had to do is hit top pressure and the groups were so good you'd never have to ever walk down and look at the target... I wanna know? I will change ASAP.
heck there supposedly is someone here that swears by 75 amax, I think, and would probably spew all kinds of names if I said they are ok, but watch to make sure the QC is there on each batch.... I had 2 batches not be fully pointed up, you could tell by measuring the OAL of the finished bullets... which I found by trying to figure out WTF happened with the next batch of 5000 bullets.... Doesn't mean they aren't typically good but you have to watch everything in life.
of course if you buy in lots large enough to burn barrels, as you should, but we don't always do or cna't alwasy find or afford, then you are fine. I"ve set some range records with amaxes....
Proof is on the paper at the distance for me.
BTW if I didn't need to shoot 10-20 shot groups for what I did, I might be happy to simply shoot a lot of even 3 shot groups to confirm.. how many do you shoot when hunting anyway... but if shooting a 22 shot group for score you need to know how everything performs over the course of a few minutes with fast shooting or 22 minutes slow depending on the day and conditions....
Last pass home,I got a pard's mind right on Iron's. Unlimbered a Winny 69 that's been setting static,installed a taller front sight and bottomed out the aperature rear,sdo as to eek a 50yd zero and then a guy could stretch the Old Gal out and do a leetle sumptin'.
It ain't Annie Iron's..but what is?!?(grin)
'neth,
I couldn't begin to speculate on your 58gr load,as I know nothing of it's chamber dimensions,the throat geometry,COAL latitude and where you are at in kisstitude.
Though I could ring the bell in about 3-pokes.
Hint.
rost',
Cain't wait to hear you mention how [bleep] incredibly clueless you are today...20yrs from now.
Laffin'!
Pay a leetle attention and it'd save you decades.
Wow +P+!
4th,
The key is to ring all the bells and contrary to Window Lickers' beliefs,it ain't not thang to ascertain just that and in veddy,veddy quick fashion.
As to ES/SD,it comes from good componetry and an inkling in their assembly. Bore condition/maintenance is hilarious schit and these stupid [bleep] couldn't sneak up on a glass of water.
Long story short,good ES/SD...will never hurt the equation and I just might look for that very thing. Hint.(grin) That from Rimfire to all thangs Centerfire,in regards to a rifle.
I've seen me be a .003" constriction Moly Slut,kissing the [bleep] outta things for many many moons and many many barrels. The "trick" is to let a new/pristine bore foul and that's a mebbe 12 poke affair at most...then one can start the hunt for pressure,knowing that has become a constant.
Assumin' a seasoned spout,it's just a coupla pokes and Show Time...because one will reliably know well in advance that ES/SD are in his hip pocket,due componet selection and their handling.
Funny how it actually works.(grin)
Not that I don't get a [bleep] kick outta a Smoke & Ladder Treatise by [bleep] Window Lickers doing their "best".
FUNNY schit!
'lia,
Show me the chart,where your "keen" eye and vast "experience",steered you to vote for Obama.
Twice.
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
Laffin'!
Pouty Hunter,
Cat got your tongue or the couch got your kchunt?!?
I gave SERIOUS thought to epoxying the Annie rear to the '69.
[bleep] it...still might.(grin)
Jordan,
It ain't veddy suplizing,what quality components will reliably do and in fact,such things is boringly predictable.
Not that I don't enjoy the hilarious trevails of a great Smoke And Ladders yarn.
FUNNY schit!
'7mm,
I've alotta dies,stems and parts and the opening move is always gonna be to kiss,find pressure and rock on.
Always a hoot to have someone show up with their rifle and best load,then smoke it on the first pitch.(grin) Consistency is key and in fairness...most folks is lost at die set up. Then it gets ugly from there.
Though I do enjoy this Ladder Bullschit and how folks like to make simplistic things far more difficult than need be,due their "keen" insight.
I'm rather at ease in cutting to the [bleep] chase and ringing the bell.
'pole,
Annie will make your wallet come out.
Tread lightly there...as there is NO return.(grin)
4th,
No matter how much someone likes ladders,increasing ES/SD ain't gonna do no favors. Of course that is so very [bleep] obvious to most,that it usually needn't rate noting...but I see the gals here are reliably in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over their pointy [bleep] heads. Which is of course,the ONLY reason this schit is [bleep] funny.(grin)
Now I'd be the last to argue amassing round count,but once you know what the [bleep] does what and more importantly why,you can reliably nip things tidily in veddy veddy short order. Not that more punched primers won't correlate the initial findings,but one can fling them boolits elsewhere and in complete confidence.
One of many reasons,I procure in large lots.
Hint.
rost',
You're slowwwwlllllly learnin',when you reiterate your cluelessness,yet again.
Sweetie...that ain't a [bleep] "secret" and there's no need to state it over and over,though you of course will. Laffin'!
Funny how it actually works.
3rd,
I ain't much fun to try and keep pace with.
Hint.
Paul,
I didn't look,but perhaps rost' gained traction on her Imagination And Pretend Board and Pouty Hunter may be lighting it up,with her dazzling array of Dumbfhukkery.
My fingers IS crossed.
Laffin'!
Though I've this "hunch",that Ladder Sales never was gonna be bolstered,even a [bleep] smidge.
I plan to work with 3 rifles next week with some buds. We'll pay closer attention to the extreme spread (whether statistically sig or not). Just factory hunting rigs that'll jump hunting bullets but still curious what we see for fun. We'll find velocity/pressure and then go from there.
Went into the SD & ES rabbit hole the past few days...
Pretty sure I could convince the stress lab at work to strain-gauge some barrels to run my own test of the ladder method. Interested in pressures, velocities (ES,SD), elevations, and groups to see if the "node" corresponds to a flat spot in the ladder where pressures are similar. In theory the ladder is supposed to find a tolerant charge region (similar elevation). But in order for this to happen the rifle needs to "move" in a consistent manner (whole body rifle, barrel deformation, etc). To me, this means similar pressures.
What makes me skeptical of ladders are claims that ES and SD are not important, horizontal can be ignored, and wind does not affect vertical. To be fair, not all ladderers hold all those beliefs. If ladder loads show little vertical but some horizontal, then there is something not consistent. Seems like pressure would be a good place to look.
Just not sure I want to go through the trouble to locate rifles accurate enough to test, gauge them, process the data, etc.
The reason I've been interested in ES and SD is the fact that a "few" shooters have done really well paying close attention to these. As I mentioned earlier Litz has quantified the affect of NOT paying attention to ES and SD. And I know that one of the US F-T/R shooters keeps ES below 10. Both of these guys have done well in competition, and they don't ignore SD/ES. I'm sure there are others
My assumption is that low SD and ES means consistent pressures. This requires consistent loads (brass prep, charge weights, seating, etc.), bullet engagement, etc. If you have all these ducks in a row and get low ES, the pressures should be consistent from shot to shot. This leads to consistent deformation of the barrel and consistent barrel time. It seems that "consistent" is the name of the theme with accurate loads. "Inconsistent" velocities (higher ES/SD) don't seem to jive. Most people don't have access to a stress/strain system, but they do have the ability to record velocities and ES/SD.
So what about guys that have success ignoring ES & SD? It seems that there is always a catch. They work well at certain ranges where the muzzle projection theory allows dissimilar bullet velocities to have similar POI. But they can only intersect, not have the same path. What happens at other distances? What about temperature changes using loads with higher ES/SD? How does ambient and chamber temp affect these loads that already have higher ES/SD?
Seems that low ES/SD is a good place to start although it could be tempting to run with a load that "seems" to shoot well under certain conditions even though ES/SD are high. I suspect that Litz and the others who shoot low ES/SD don't stop here. They keep going... for more consistency.
Just make sure you degrease and center it up. 5 minute aught to work. Don't put it on too thick, might have to put that one front sight back on (reverse). Or get some of that quick release epoxy in case you want to change your mind. It comes in different colors also.
Man, some days I wished i wasted as much time taking pictures and measuring groups as y'all do. I've seen some stuff on the chrono before shooting Audettes as a first thing to do... that had me jumping up and donw, only to drive down to the target at 600 and find out wow... the load with a bit worse ES/SD groups twice as good. You sit there and ask.. how can that be? It shouldn't be. But there it is. On paper and repeatable on paper if you shot it again. You learn to trust results. Not hypotehtical results.
Really when you deal with ES and SD, its a pure fantasy to assume the best of them produce the smallest group.
If you ran simply by what your chrono told you, i'd beat you at every match we shot in.
But no one ever said that you ignore it. Just that you have to combine what you see on paper as being true, vs what you see on the chrono.
I've said that I run the chrono at the start and at the end, and thats all I feel that is really needed. Paper never lies. Especially when you shoot it continually after the Audette. If you happen to get a vertical shot caused by wind, then it will show up again, and again and again at times as you finish your load work and start shooting for real.
Bryan Litz and Darrell Buell have competed at the national and world level and they do have faith in low ES/SD... AND paper results as you said. I don't think they rely just on ES/SD... they seem to rely on both. Buell has stated that his goal is an ES of 10 or less for 1000 yard shooting. You know as well as I do how his team has done, with .308 rifles of all things, at 1000 yards. Just as hard to argue with the rocket scientist, who is also doing quite well in competition his ownself. They have both done well in competition, for several years.
You have a system that works for you, but what if you took it one step farther? Use your ladders to get good paper results AND strive for low ES/SD, always? Maybe you are stopping your load development too soon? For all I know, maybe you are competing against Buell, Litz, and others. If you're beating these guys then rock on!
First two shots in the morning. Just to get the barrel dirty. That its not in the center of the gong is all me. 300 SAUM Nosler case. 210g Berger LRBT. 60.4g Ramshot Hunter TULA Mag primer. 2806fps. The load comes straight from my ladder test. Distance. 600 yards.
The load comes straight from my ladder test. Distance. 600 yards.
dave
No way Dave.
Anyone who can understand Ebonics knows that the scaffolding test shot while standing on a ladder is the dumbest stupidest smoky pretend load development crapola dreamed up from some dumbfhukk's imagine EVAH
Bryan Litz and Darrell Buell have competed at the national and world level and they do have faith in low ES/SD... AND paper results as you said. I don't think they rely just on ES/SD... they seem to rely on both. Buell has stated that his goal is an ES of 10 or less for 1000 yard shooting. You know as well as I do how his team has done, with .308 rifles of all things, at 1000 yards. Just as hard to argue with the rocket scientist, who is also doing quite well in competition his ownself. They have both done well in competition, for several years.
You have a system that works for you, but what if you took it one step farther? Use your ladders to get good paper results AND strive for low ES/SD, always? Maybe you are stopping your load development too soon? For all I know, maybe you are competing against Buell, Litz, and others. If you're beating these guys then rock on!
Jason
Never said I ignore teh ES/SD. And typically about 10 or less for ES is what one ends up with for the best load.
The question is, would you blindly shoot loads chasing ES/SD best figures?
I won't. Its gotta be the best of both worlds. And in the end, since you are competing or shooting at game, the results are what you are after, not the supposed results.
The next interesting question... how to you strive for ES/SD? I mean how do you chase the best?
I've shot against Litz many moons ago, good shooter, and I don't recall how I fared against him. I have not shot against others since 2004 as my father became very ill and finally died, he reminded my wife and I that mountains are not getting any shorter... and so we went back to hunting instead of competing with our time and funds.
You seem like a guy that just likes to talk about things. Mental beatoffitude
You should actually try all of the methods folks have spoken about here and report back.
No offense.
Rick,
Sounds like you're giving up, again ?
Instead of debating the merits of your Holy Grail(s), you throw half-ass jabs then want me to test your methods for you? And report back?! Are you serious? I thought you were the ladder salesman?
Ok, if time permits I'll see if we can run some Holy Grails for you this weekend. No promises though since it ain't my powder, primers, and bullets.
Never said I ignore teh ES/SD. And typically about 10 or less for ES is what one ends up with for the best load.
Jeff
Enough said Jeff. I understand.
Jason
I"m not sure how one uses a ladder/audette/find pressure for more than a good initial quick run of where you are and where to further chase, but 10 shots is easier than 10 groups of 5 and realizing after 2 shots of some of those groups of 5... you'd be wasting time to shoot the other 3.
Though as I"ve noted, taken the best center of a node from the first 10 shots and been well under MOA and ran with it on a hunting rifle that ever since.. has never shot above MOA... done that a couple of times actually.
But for serious accuracy you tend to do more work. And even when you've finished, you still have to chase the barrel as it ages, both MV, seating depth etc...
Along the way while firing groups etc...I may be tweaking for a long time at matches, with primer swaps, neck tension, etc.... and as I"ve noted that might actually take a couple of matches or more at full distance for me to get enough data to prove its worht changing a component of the system, be it going from .242 neck to .243 neck etc...
It is intellesting,that which can realized in hasty order...though I reckon there are some who's enthralled with chasing their tails.
Fortunately,they often cain't know they are doing so and will go to great lengths to "explain" and "support" that chasin',under the supposition it bears fruit.
Funny schit!
Gibby,
I like Sleepers,because they crack me up. My 69's rear bridge ain't D&T'd,only wearing a dovetail for the rather "unique" spring loaded OEM Irons it's fraught with. Due the ejection pattern,a rail or similar is out...so High Zoot Irons would be funny and effective.
Have seen chronographs with a "Ladders Is Funny" Mode.
Laffin'!
RDW,
I was enjoying the ruse,when The Paper Hat Brigade was trying to talk about bore maintenance. Though in fairness,the gals wasn't able to gain any traction there either.
A shame they punted so quickly there,as it was gonna get funnier than [bleep] too.(grin)
Funny how it actually works.
rost',
Jeezus [bleep]...give it a break toots. First you felt compelled to come clean that you were [bleep] utterly clueless for the 20yrs you thought you shot and now you wanna drive that home,by citing you ain't shot in a decade since. That ain't hardly [bleep] fair,to unleash that much oblivious humor in one [bleep] Thread. Laffin'!
Lemme be clear again,everyone understands your glaring ineptitude and you really needn't pinpoint your dumbfhukktirtude again. That being said,here's to the sanctity of your being powerless in that refrain.
Bless your heart.
Laffin'!
7mm,
I'd be slow to wager the Farm...onna pair.(grin)
'lia,
Fascinating that at all stops,you default immediately to cramming things in your mouth and ass. I reckon you feel farrrrrrr more comfy in that firsthand insight,than you do anything else. Congratulations?!?
Funnier yet,that betwixt all stops,you's tryin' to perfect your Imagination and Pretend,so as to bolster your Imitation(s).
You are doing "great".
Laffin'!
'pole,
In fairness...(2) pokes is twice as many as a one-shot group.(grin)
I believe the reason I submitted a well placed brace at 500yd+ Chickum Eggs,was to touch upon a couple/few things. They'd include,Accuracy,Precision,veddy veddy modest ES/SD and some wind reading skeelz to boot.
To mix it up a smidge,I submitted a hasty trio at 700yds+,to touch on a few more,which included Break-in,Contours and high X power steering devices.
I know it weren't even close to fair,but it did/do well exceed funnier than [bleep]...despite the Window Lickers missin' all of it.
Kiss,find pressure and rock on.
4th,
The best part is,'lia was never [bleep] even "in" it...and she was the only one who didn't know same. Laffin'!
Where do these incredibly dumb [bleep] come from?!?
You've asked for "data" and such to prove the "science" of the Audette and harmonics. Where are the same questions about the other methods?
Where is the science that proves that every rifle with every bullet/powder combination will shoot its best on the lands with a charge of powder juuuuust under the point where pressure is found?
Jeezus [bleep]...give it a break toots. First you felt compelled to come clean that you were [bleep] utterly clueless for the 20yrs you thought you shot and now you wanna drive that home,by citing you ain't shot in a decade since. That ain't hardly [bleep] fair,to unleash that much oblivious humor in one [bleep] Thread. Laffin'!
Lemme be clear again,everyone understands your glaring ineptitude and you really needn't pinpoint your dumbfhukktirtude again. That being said,here's to the sanctity of your being powerless in that refrain.
Bless your heart.
Laffin'!
"Glaring ineptitude"? That coming from a slope-headed dwarf, talking to someone who's been awarded a President's Hundred tab
A good test would be the ability to load each round to a given FPS.
And then fire them at a given distance, say 1000 yards as thats about where things start to have to be really particular.
And see if there would be any noticeable differences in vertical impact.
And then compare that to being in the middle of best harmonics.
The distances that I've done a lot of my testing at is 600 yards. I have that bench at home set up to roll so its easy.
What has amazed me over the years was that as I"ve noted, sometimes while running a chrono all the time(before I decided what worked best for my uses) was that you could see a very low ES/SD of a 10 shot group and go down and it was ok but nothign more. Then you would get a ho hum one with ES/SD but go down and see a really snug group. So much amazing that you'd think... it can't be. Go back and shoot it again, and well, dang if it wasn't repeatable. Both ES/SD figures to an extent and the group size. Both ways.
I should also say that I have not shot beyond 1000, save for a few chunks at a few yotes over the years, but no paper testing, and I don't shoot at game beyond or at targets beyond.
So there may very well be a different need when you approach longer distances. And once you have transitioned from super to sub sonic.
Probably something to learn from the BPCR guys would be my guess on mile long shots and beyond.
I should also say that I have not shot beyond 1000, save for a few chunks at a few yotes over the years, but no paper testing, and I don't shoot at game beyond or at targets beyond.
So there may very well be a different need when you approach longer distances. And once you have transitioned from super to sub sonic.
Probably something to learn from the BPCR guys would be my guess on mile long shots and beyond.
If I were setting up a rig to shoot solely from 1000 and beyond, I would simply shoot the Audette at the appropriate range.
A minimum of 1000 and 1200 would be better is my guess
Rigs that I've shot 600 yard Audette development and taken to 1 mile seem to perform well enough for as few times as I will be using them at that range
Since y'all are on the topic. Dissect this one for me done at 300 yards this afternoon, 308 varget 185 bergers. Gonna pick a few of these and shoot 5 shot groups at 300, which ones?
Picked the load in between 6 and 7 from this ladder test and shot a 300 yard f/class match Saturday with it. Shot a 448 out of 450. Here is target one. I think I'll stick with doing ladder test.
I don't know ebonics, but I do know that a two-shot group don't mean squat.
Your right. It dont. So I did it a couple of more times. Just checking. Fired after a match with 90 plus rounds down the tube.
Same everything at 600 yards. Both groups have to be alittle better than 1.5 inches Came right off of my ladder test. Chrono data showed a load with better SD/ES. This load with slightly higher SD/ES is more accurate. Dirty, clean and all day long. Have a nice day
I dont have a picture of the ladder test. But I still have it and just dug it out and took a look. Been awhile. Did not even shoot this one over the chrono. August 7 2011. 60.1,60.4,and 60.7 printed a nice 1 inch knot worth of vertical at 600 yards. Text book ladder test and 60.4 just screams " shoot me ,shoot me" If I do my part. Dont trust Berger lot to different lot bullets. Its one of the most consistent rifles on the line at Ridgway. 1500 + rounds and counting on the Obymeyer. dave
Boots is still at it and you can get them from bugholes.com when in stock. Not much point talking to him on the phone. The outside of the barrel is for the most part, a high school shop project. The inside, is pure gold. At least in 30 cal they are.
You've asked for "data" and such to prove the "science" of the Audette and harmonics. Where are the same questions about the other methods?
Where is the science that proves that every rifle with every bullet/powder combination will shoot its best on the lands with a charge of powder juuuuust under the point where pressure is found?
Rick,
I don't think anyone claimed that the load just below max pressure is always the most accurate. Some guys start there though. Plus, this thread is really about Ladders good, bad, or indifferent. Not other methods.
If my buds are up for it, we'll run some ladders this weekend with a 30-06, a 7RM, and maybe another 7RM. Two of the three rifles are proven shooters. The third is an unknown. All are hunting rifles, not match rigs. My role will be the devil, and they can do the laddering
Try .3 Before you fire every shot, tell yourself it will be the best trigger squeeze you've ever had. I "pretend" I'm dry-firing and want to hear a "click"
I'm going to let them ladder. My job will be to get to an accurate load without. Hunting accuracy is the final goal... 8" steel at 500y (wind permitting). Just need to see if they are cool burning extra powder if we get crazy with the testing.
A good test would be the ability to load each round to a given FPS.//Probably something to learn from the BPCR guys would be my guess on mile long shots and beyond.
Rost,
If I used your Audette method, afterwards, I'd have to send my barreled action to Gordy and have him screw the toasted one off and screw a new Krieger tube on! I'd be doing nothing but load development at known distances on paper and burning up barrels.
I'm also having a problem with higher SD/ES'ds shooting a tighter group than rounds that have the lower SD/ES'ds. What variable(s) do you believe cause(s) that anomaly. I shoot over an Oehler 3P, and I have never had that happen. Of course there is the necessary admission that I shoot a lot less than you, and maybe I just haven't shot enough rounds for it to occur yet.
I'm going to let them ladder. My job will be to get to an accurate load without. Hunting accuracy is the final goal... 8" steel at 500y (wind permitting). Just need to see if they are cool burning extra powder if we get crazy with the testing.
If in all this discussion, in a long range forum, we are after just under 2 moa, I'd just google loads and read a fair bit and come up with a few verifications by threads, that a given load is fairly commonly good... and run with it.
It doesn't take much at all to hit 8 inch steel at 500 yards. I could do that with the generic AR load of 25 varget and 69 sierras and CCIbr4 in almost any AR i've ever had. With iron sights.
A good test would be the ability to load each round to a given FPS.//Probably something to learn from the BPCR guys would be my guess on mile long shots and beyond.
Rost,
If I used your Audette method, afterwards, I'd have to send my barreled action to Gordy and have him screw the toasted one off and screw a new Krieger tube on! I'd be doing nothing but load development at known distances on paper and burning up barrels.
I'm also having a problem with higher SD/ES'ds shooting a tighter group than rounds that have the lower SD/ES'ds. What variable(s) do you believe cause(s) that anomaly. I shoot over an Oehler 3P, and I have never had that happen. Of course there is the necessary admission that I shoot a lot less than you, and maybe I just haven't shot enough rounds for it to occur yet.
Well maybe we don't understand here what folks are after. New barrels were at least 2 a year when I was shooting. That was a given.
I took an Audette, grabbed the niddle of a top node and won a regional match 3 days later. But while I won, I kept tweaking that load to verify and made it better by the time I won the next regional match, with a load that beat David Tubb in the 600 yard stage, and beat Paul LaBerge in the same stage. Setting a range record in the process. Still was not done tweaking...
I don't waste shots. I run a quick test and start shooting. You can tweak or play with it as you go.
My goal has always been .5 moa for 10 shot group at the max distance I shoot.
I don't shoot at every distance, but for XC ammo, max is 600, I test final tests at 600. Many times at matches while competing.
If you've read I use an Oehler 35 also. I don't print as I jot down what I need.
I cannot answer your question as to why. But I"ve seen it more than a few times. And as I've said its repeatable and I'm not the only one on this thread confirming that.
There are a LOT of things I can't answer when it comes to guns and why... thats why my decision was to trust targets IE the results, not teh supposed results.
I dont' win matches by having the lowest ES/SD over a chrono at a match. I win by having the most Xs in the center and not dropping a point through the string.
What folks maybe are not willing to admit here, is some of us confirm that while we feel its not smart to trust a chrono blindly... that we aren't searching for the worst ES/SD. We watch them, but believe teh paper.
If I get time to shoot a bunch again, instead of just maybe a few hundred rounds a year that I do now, I'll try to set up a ladder and keep the data and print it one day.
Probably would not believe myself and trust info like you do, if all I did was shoot a bit, and not up to 20K rounds of 223 a year when we were shooting competition.
As noted, if I really wanted to run in a hurry, Audette, grab middle of top node, and for a couple hundred yard rifle, probably never look back.
And if in a real hurry zero it with one shot and start hunting. If I have BC and MV I can probably make a hit on the 2nd shot after the single zero in round, easily on game out to 400-500 yards with a good ballistics program.
Worst part, or best part, if we were all face to face around a campfire, we'd all come to teh conclusion our needs are all different and we all basically do things somewhat the same with minor tweaks.
Though I"m glad I dont' start with 5 shot groups liek was the norm in the 70s....
If in all this discussion, in a long range forum, we are after just under 2 moa, I'd just google loads and read a fair bit and come up with a few verifications by threads, that a given load is fairly commonly good... and run with it.
It doesn't take much at all to hit 8 inch steel at 500 yards. I could do that with the generic AR load of 25 varget and 69 sierras and CCIbr4 in almost any AR i've ever had. With iron sights.
Rost,
My post wasn't clear. 2-moa ain't the goal. But with hunting rifles, I'm fine with 1-moa out to 500y. Not LR rifles, but this is what we are working with this weekend.
The 8" steel is my way of weeding out shooter, rifle, load, field rest, etc. Gotta hit the 8" steel, in the center section although we sometimes let perimeter hits slide . Sometimes see 2-ft pieces of a steel or paper shot at 500y, and then guys measuring groups. A tight group on the edge of the manhole cover doesn't mean much to me unless we are shooting in wind.
I shoot my Montucky 7-08 with 6x at 500y a quite a bit. Pics below were shot on a day with slight wind right-to-left, with occasional gust left-to-right. Stuck 3 shots together, and dropped one low. I'm ok with these shooting off my pack, rapidfire with a lightweight hunting rifle. I don't know what happened with the one to the right (pulled it, gust, ?). I practice setting up quick and getting shots off fast. The rusty impacts in the center were from the previous session, and typical of what I'm looking for.
It's 80+ pages of Window Lickers doing their "best".
Never had a chance to go any other way,either.(grin)
SquatToPee,
Your best connect percentages,are ALWAYS gonna be when you quote me. Sweetheart,that ain't "new",to anyone but you. Hint.
Now ain't it a [bleep] perpetual hoot,that even someone as [bleep] incredibly STUPID as you,knows wayyyyyyyy better than to try and talk anything in the first hand?!? Great call,to walk miles away from all things The Rifle.
Bless your heart.
Laffin'!
'flave,
You buy floral wallpaper,hang it up and start shooting different loads at different flowers...then pick up a 4-leaf clover and summons the Imagination and Pretend requisite,to admonish your chronograph.
Culmination is breath holding,feet stomping and coming clean that the last 30+ years of doing so,just might notta been an ideal.
Laffin'!
Gibby,
Worst part bein',the dovetail crowds the aft of the ejection port.
It's an Epoxy Show.
Dooshmike,
In fairness to The Paper Hat Brigade...there likely ain't a tinged pane in their proximity.
Problem bein' there's a coupla words there,that the poor Stupid [bleep] is gonna haveta Google,before they collectively nod their heads in unison.
Laffin'!
MagnumDoosh,
You never did state and I remain curious...just how loud is your Imagination when you "shoot" it?!?
This Thread is [bleep] awesome and is only lacking Jeff-O now.
[bleep] WOW +P+,you poor poor stupid [bleep]!
Laffin'!
7mm,
I'll try to nab some fresh video footage this next pass,if'n I can leave the Chrome alone long enough,to do so.
Tough to get enough DOF,to see the shooter,chronograph and target all in the same frame. Hell...mebbe Igotsa reason to buy another camera now.(grin)
'lia,
I soooooooooooooo enjoy that Stupidity ain't an Act for you.
Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
'247,
308's so rule,you are REALLY in the know.
Laffin'!
As an aside...what happened to Pouty Hunter?!? Haybale get her?
With research and a good gun, even factory guns these days, I expect that a reseached first load will give me MOA unless I"m using a bit more picky of a bullet.
Dont' have to do load research etc... really if you don't want to. THere are known go to loads for most any caliber.
RE the right hit. you should know instantly if you pulled it. Thats kinda a given. That hit would tell me there was a condition that I missed. It happens. But I trust what I see when the gun goes off inherently. Mr La Berge taught me that some years ago... many actually... you shoot better than that, if its off its a condition, unless you know you pulled it. And that should be obvious. And thats not a swing at you at all. Just saying.
Light rifles take a lot more work to shoot well, NPA, body position/tension on the gun has to be very consistent. And of course with the light ones sometimes floating the tube istn' the answer, someitmes it needs a pressure point. Or full length bedding. Everything is harder with the lighter guns.
I like shooting prone over a pack in teh field if I can make it work. I actually prefer it to my bipod. The bipods can be really picky and if you aren't putting forward pressure on them , they can put some strange varying harmonics in the gun. F class run slick PTFE feet for that reason.
I tell you what it would sure be fun to see everyone in this thread show up at the Whittington center Sporting Rifle Match. Seems to me we'd figure out who is talking out their @ss and who isn't.
I tell you what it would sure be fun to see everyone in this thread show up at the Whittington center Sporting Rifle Match. Seems to me we'd figure out who is talking out their @ss and who isn't.
What a co-ink-a-dink
I'm there almost every month. I share the course record with about 4 other guys since it began.
I tell you what it would sure be fun to see everyone in this thread show up at the Whittington center Sporting Rifle Match. Seems to me we'd figure out who is talking out their @ss and who isn't.
What a co-ink-a-dink
I'm there almost every month. I share the course record with about 4 other guys since it began.
Always wanted to shoot a sporting rifle match. Its funny when you choose a sport you tend to stick with it.
We did have fun before we got real serious about highpower service rifle... we cross trained in smallbore silhouette, bullseye pistol, 3P smallbore, and IDPA/IPSC.
Wanted to shoot highpower silhouette but nothing really close and by that time we had so much money invested in gear for highpower it just wasn't in the cards!
Load development though, either short or long, hard or easy, as long as you get to a result, isn't what wins matches, its the shooter once the gear is good.
RE the right hit. you should know instantly if you pulled it. Thats kinda a given. That hit would tell me there was a condition that I missed. It happens. But I trust what I see when the gun goes off inherently. Mr La Berge taught me that some years ago... many actually... you shoot better than that, if its off its a condition, unless you know you pulled it. And that should be obvious. And thats not a swing at you at all. Just saying.
Something was off, but I don't recall what happened with that shot. The pics were from Dec 2013. I've shot that target a bunch of times since then and have lost track of the details. Only took pics for someone complaining about a light hunting rifle.
I tell you what it would sure be fun to see everyone in this thread show up at the Whittington center Sporting Rifle Match. Seems to me we'd figure out who is talking out their @ss and who isn't.
What a co-ink-a-dink
I'm there almost every month. I share the course record with about 4 other guys since it began.
RE the right hit. you should know instantly if you pulled it. Thats kinda a given. That hit would tell me there was a condition that I missed. It happens. But I trust what I see when the gun goes off inherently. Mr La Berge taught me that some years ago... many actually... you shoot better than that, if its off its a condition, unless you know you pulled it. And that should be obvious. And thats not a swing at you at all. Just saying.
Something was off, but I don't recall what happened with that shot. The pics were from Dec 2013. I've shot that target a bunch of times since then and have lost track of the details. Only took pics for someone complaining about a light hunting rifle.
That's the grand thing about getting the best load you can and learning to shoot. Eventually you trust yourself enough to either know you yanked or flinched or whatever... or the shot was good and there is NO reason it should be there where it is, so you learn to stop right there and really search out the reason so you can learn... hopefully avoid the next one.
I tell you what it would sure be fun to see everyone in this thread show up at the Whittington center Sporting Rifle Match. Seems to me we'd figure out who is talking out their @ss and who isn't.
What a co-ink-a-dink
I'm there almost every month. I share the course record with about 4 other guys since it began.
Chuck Ward says...."There have been 5 58's Kolar twice and once each for myself , Lonnie D , John S , and Rick C . IIRC there have been 5 or 6 57's and around 8 or 10 56's .
The original course was harder than it is now , approx 60% of the shots were sitting or higher with 2 or 3 stages that were all standing stick shots depending on the time of the year .
We made it easier for a while to draw more repeat business and now since everybody is getting better at it we're making it harder again .
The course has pretty much been in a state of flux for the whole time with little changes happening every year . "
Wanted to shoot highpower silhouette but nothing really close
Its a disease. I thought my Competition days were over when I quit short range BR 20 + years ago. Then the Ridgway rifle club started 1000 silhouette. Its gotten pretty big. 2 years ago they had 80 guys for a match. These days its more like 120.
True story. Tubbs used to shoot the offhand stuff at Ridgway.500 yards. He brought his chin gun several times...kicked butt. And then they banned his gun. He never came back. dave
Ain't no benches in highpower either. But I'll give you we used jackets and slings and don't shoot it all off 2 legs... grins.
Always thought silhouette was just good cross training. Can teach you to shoot approach and fast as its less time per shot offhand than highpower. Though I always thought the scopes were kinda like cheating... grins.
I tell you what it would sure be fun to see everyone in this thread show up at the Whittington center Sporting Rifle Match. Seems to me we'd figure out who is talking out their @ss and who isn't.
What a co-ink-a-dink
I'm there almost every month. I share the course record with about 4 other guys since it began.
Rick,
Be careful what you wish for. I have seen Lil Fish shoot.
There was a video where he almost hit an egg at 500yds. 3 shots and 3 close misses. It was awesome.
You guys do score close misses as hits, right?????
Ain't no benches in highpower either. But I'll give you we used jackets and slings and don't shoot it all off 2 legs... grins.
Always thought silhouette was just good cross training. Can teach you to shoot approach and fast as its less time per shot offhand than highpower. Though I always thought the scopes were kinda like cheating... grins.
I tell you what it would sure be fun to see everyone in this thread show up at the Whittington center Sporting Rifle Match. Seems to me we'd figure out who is talking out their @ss and who isn't.
What a co-ink-a-dink
I'm there almost every month. I share the course record with about 4 other guys since it began.
Rick,
Be careful what you wish for. I have seen Lil Fish shoot.
There was a video where he almost hit an egg at 500yds. 3 shots and 3 close misses. It was awesome.
You guys do score close misses as hits, right?????
you hit and egg every time at 500 yrds ? with no sighters ? Wait let me get my rubber boots on , I hate [bleep] between my toes
Ain't no benches in highpower either. But I'll give you we used jackets and slings and don't shoot it all off 2 legs... grins.
Always thought silhouette was just good cross training. Can teach you to shoot approach and fast as its less time per shot offhand than highpower. Though I always thought the scopes were kinda like cheating... grins.
your gonna teach me .............. ok LMAO
Teach silhouette? Nope. Highpower service rifle? Sure. Find out how many HM there are XC AND LR with a service rifle..... that one I can probably cover just fine.
I'm guessing most of us could learn a thing or two from anyone who does well at Service Rifle or matches such as the Sporting Rifle Match. Or even F-Class shooting.
I'm guessing most of us could learn a thing or two from anyone who does well at Service Rifle or matches such as the Sporting Rifle Match. Or even F-Class shooting.
Or 1000 yard Benchrest, as this thread is about load work for distance.....
all competitive shooting takes a lot of skill, well depending on if you actually try to be the best you can and win, some folks just like to have guns and go bang, and I get that too, no big deal.
But while we can chide each other, EACH sport takes its own skill set and knowledge, both by the user and the equipment they use.
Its one reason that in the off season, from your individual sport, that cross training can be not only fun but of huge help one way or the other.
I KNOW we learned a lot from all the cross training we did.
John gets 3 shots to hit a chicken egg at 500 yards and you're betting against him hitting the egg even once!?
Name the amount you want to bet that John won't hit a chicken egg 500 yards away at least once out of three attempts; I'll gladly bet you for whatever amount you want to bet that John will hit a chicken egg at 500 yards at least once out of three tries. Just PM me with the amount you wish to wager and I'll contact John and see where and when he wants to make scrambled eggs. I'm sure you'll want to be there or have someone you trust see John make 500 yard scrambled egg.
I'd love to follow BR accuracy... but shooting 20K rounds a year, I can't afford the brass, time etc... in load prep and so on. Though we had a BR convert to SR once... was funny to watch him load thousands of rounds with the ?? Williams?? dies and an arbor press...
But we always did try to find the best accuracy we could. It sure helped with missed wind calls and oops shots...
I enjoy your Imagination.almost as much as you do.
'Course I cain't slight you for aspiring to Imagine enough Pretend,to concoct a ruse where you were anywhere near me,nor viewed that which don't exist. Bless your heart...you poor poor stupid [bleep].
Hey,you never mentioned who you was trying to [bleep] and outta what,with your greasy Snake Oil Pretend. What the [bleep] kind of piece of [bleep] schit are trying to "sell" now?!?
Laffin'!
'lia,
What's funny,is how [bleep] clueless you are.
Shame you cain't savvy same...but that is the very crux of what oblivious humor is predicated upon.
Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
'holton,
Shooting cleans on Chickum Eggs,is a crowd pleaser.
Seen it.(grin)
'fan,
Spent primers,remain THE Supreme Tutorial.
That most simplistic of facts,do reliably [bleep] up the Window Lickers.
Speakin' of which...where's Pouty Hunter?!? She was doing "great" too.
Laffin'!
'rost,
I enjoyed Shooting "Season". Funny schit!
Much to be said for shooting daily.
Hint.
Laffin'!
MagnumDoosh,
You poor poor clueless dumbfhukk.
Perhaps consider PM'ing SquatToPee,so as to bolster your Imagination and Pretend another notch. Though not so curiously,she's giving The Rifle as wide a berth as you. You two stupid [bleep] bolted together,couldn't run a water faucet.
Laffin'!
aalf,
Schit,that was close...here I was all set to buy a ladder,based upon single shootin' a Mouse Gun at wallpaper. Get some!
Yep, but even with mouse gun.. I rarely loaded on a dillon, and certainly not the 600 plus yard stuff. Grins. 90jlks were loaded one at a time....rockchucker wise...
Jeezus [bleep]...give it a break toots. First you felt compelled to come clean that you were [bleep] utterly clueless for the 20yrs you thought you shot and now you wanna drive that home,by citing you ain't shot in a decade since. That ain't hardly [bleep] fair,to unleash that much oblivious humor in one [bleep] Thread. Laffin'!
Lemme be clear again,everyone understands your glaring ineptitude and you really needn't pinpoint your dumbfhukktirtude again. That being said,here's to the sanctity of your being powerless in that refrain.
Bless your heart.
Laffin'!
"Glaring ineptitude"? That coming from a slope-headed dwarf, talking to someone who's been awarded a President's Hundred tab
Do the smart thing, put that dumbass dipshit Boxer on ignore. He is dumber than a box of rocks and crazier than batshit.
Click on his name on one of his posts, "view his profile", hit "ignore this user".
If more people did that we would not have to put up with his stupidity.
Funny that the only guys on this thread who know anything about what they are talking about are the ones who actually shoot long range.
You did pretty damn good at the 2013 Sniper's Hide Cup. Not many can compete at that level in two totally different types of competitive shooting. I know your sporting clays abilities and have seen you shoot clays a few times. I wish I had that level of skill in both.
Jeezus [bleep]...give it a break toots. First you felt compelled to come clean that you were [bleep] utterly clueless for the 20yrs you thought you shot and now you wanna drive that home,by citing you ain't shot in a decade since. That ain't hardly [bleep] fair,to unleash that much oblivious humor in one [bleep] Thread. Laffin'!
Lemme be clear again,everyone understands your glaring ineptitude and you really needn't pinpoint your dumbfhukktirtude again. That being said,here's to the sanctity of your being powerless in that refrain.
Bless your heart.
Laffin'!
"Glaring ineptitude"? That coming from a slope-headed dwarf, talking to someone who's been awarded a President's Hundred tab
Do the smart thing, put that dumbass dipshit Boxer on ignore. He is dumber than a box of rocks and crazier than batshit.
Click on his name on one of his posts, "view his profile", hit "ignore this user".
If more people did that we would not have to put up with his stupidity.
You mean imaginary pretend ignore? That's a good idea!
Funny that the only guys on this thread who know anything about what they are talking about are the ones who actually shoot long range.
You did pretty damn good at the 2013 Sniper's Hide Cup. Not many can compete at that level in two totally different types of competitive shooting. I know your sporting clays abilities and have seen you shoot clays a few times. I wish I had that level of skill in both.
This was a Kiss, Find Pressure, and Rock On type thing. It was pretty windy today (3.5" horizontal), but I think the load shows promise. In all fairness, I kind of cheated as I've worked with the bullet, cartridge, and powder combination a lot in the past.
I enjoy your Imagination,almost as much as you do.
Allow me to fuel it yet again.
Please feel free to whistle any/all tunes,that assist you with your Imagination and Pretend.
Still waiting for a pic of your ears.
Laffin'!
aalf,
Best part is,the poor dumb [bleep] think they've a clue.(grin)
Pouty Hunter,
I'll feign my "surprise" that the best you can do,is to hit the Silent Dog Whistle with your trembling lips and a 90psi blast for help,then plead emphatically for a group Imaginary Pretend Ignore. Laffin'!
Just a guess, but would imagine you'd have to carefully weigh each pig to obtain consistent results in a ladder test. Or are you varying the powder charge depending on piggy ponderousness?
Just a guess, but would imagine you'd have to carefully weigh each pig to obtain consistent results in a ladder test. Or are you varying the powder charge depending on piggy ponderousness?
A one shot ladder that definitely showed pressure signs!
Tested some loads with a buddy and his son yesterday (factory hunting rifles, not true LR rigs). They just started handloading so we started off slow, and careful. Shot the loads through two chronos, end-to-end.
First was a Finnish Tikkler in 7RM, 150gr NPt, 4831sc. Shooter was worried about vision/clarity so we ran pseudo-ladder at 100y to find velocity. Target was 3000-3100 fps, and actual velocities were low. We exceeded max published data a bit to get to 3000fps. Didn't want to go higher. Lower charges were slower than shooter wanted. Even so, they were having fun learning a new process, getting trigger time, decent weather in PNWet, etc. Tried a few loads that gave desired velocity, but got nothing.
Switched powder to H1000 later in the day. Worked up velocity at 100y. Target velocity was a bit lower (based on published data) so we were shooting for ~2950fps. The rifle liked H1000... basically shooting one big hole with several grain spread while working up to 2950fps target. Settled on 69gr at 2950fps and didn't bother with a formal ladder.
Also tried a Parker-Hale in 7RM with 4831SC. Got nothing. Didn't have time for H1000.
Tikkler with H1000 (tape covering Parker Hale H4831sc group from earlier in day):
Junior was shooting a factory 700 ADL in 30-06 with a tacti-cool Weaver. 168gr SMK and H4350 were on hand. He wanted to shoot farther than his pop, but we could only get 250y for the ladder at this spot in the coastrange. He let some loads fly anyway. 57gr busted the ladder. Lost track of a couple holes on paper from the shrapnel. The target was offset from the hanging post, but loads had some horizontal.
At 57gr, velocity was still a little lower than desired. Decided to forget the ladder and get to desired velocity with 57.5gr or 58gr (me playing devil while they laddered). Target was thrashed anyway. By now the mid-afternoon wind had picked up. He shot 57.5gr really well given the conditions, ignoring #5 horizontal due to wind. Some vertical so I asked if he wanted me to load more to confirm the load or try 58gr? He said, "No." Gotta trust a confident shooter. I was more than impressed given the boat anchor pull weight on that 700. Time to pack it up and move to 500y.
At 500y, both junior and his pop were hitting the 8.5" steel with their own handloads . They'd been waiting a loooooong time to get to that point. Lots of fun for me to watch them bring it all together. Just as much fun as shooting my own rifles, maybe more .
For whatever reason, they were both hitting the same part of the steel (5 o'clock, can just barely see it in pic). Lost track of how many hits on that same area. Wind was throwing them off target now and then so it wasn't a slam dunk by any stretch. Afternoon wind hadn't settled yet.
The icing on the cake was when junior shot his final 3 rounds at 800y (another 8.5" steel). This was late in the day when the wind was nil. First shot was just over the target by ~half foot, perfect windage. I wanted to correct elevation but his pop said, "shoot one more to confirm." Shot #2 was again just over the target, perfect windage. Told him -0.2 mils elevation. Third and final shot drilled it. It was late by then so we never went to check the targets. He spun my 800y steel so I'll be inspecting impacts at 500y and 800y when I go back to fix the 800y hanger.
Junior and his pop had a blast. Didn't take long to get their hunting rigs shooting "good enough" for factory rifles at medium range. And Junior rocked at 800y with his box-store ADL. No groups measured, but easily on a manhole cover at 800y with those 3-shots. Nah, even better
Junior plans to join the Marines after high school. I think he's doing pretty dang good for a young man . Once he gets the trigger fixed on that 700, I'm sure he'll do even better.
I guess it don't matter how you get there, as long as its fun along the way and share it with people you like
Junior getting set-up for 500y:
8.5" steel at 500y (can just barely see impacts at 5 o'clock):
Trav, you use high-quality protein for targets and feed your offspring cereal. How stupid are you?
Not sure how you would know what my children eat. Also not sure why you'd comment about a kid that has shot more rounds in the past month, then you will over the next five years.
Yep. Now Seafire will be all over this. I know nothing about this type of deplorable behavior....nor any interest in it. and for those reasons..........I'm out.
A group of us were out all day yesterday, practicing. We set up a bunch of steel in different areas as stages we might see at the Snipers Hide Cup or Steel Safari. Ran each other through the stages under time. Find the targets, range, dial and shoot. It was very productive
We painted a rock white and ranged it. 1571 yards. We all shot 5 at it under time.
This is a buddy who really tore the schitt out of it...
Brian Litz had some shooting tips and competition tips.
Quote
Competition TIP THREE. Actively avoid major train wrecks. Sounds obvious but it happens a lot. Select equipment that is reliable, get comfortable with it and have back-ups for important things.Don�t load on the verge of max pressure
I am sure Litz is smart enough to find where high pressure starts in his given rifle too. If you don't find where high pressure starts to show, you are pulling numbers out of your ass.
Finding max pressure doesn't mean that is your load, on the contrary. It shows you where you don't want to be, and it tells you to stop going forward. Then shift in reverse...
Back to back barbed-wire pics,by The Paper Hat Brigade as their Trump Card. What next?!? More pics of chicks wayyyyyyyyy outta your league...or more Haybale & Crockett "Adventures" from the golf cart?
Here's a picture of my wife before we got married. She's put on a few since then and boy you should have seen her when she was pregnant last year with our twins!
After the twins were born, I started running her behind the truck at the end of my retreiver training sessions with the other dogs. She really held her own (she had to or there would have been some serious pain)
Also sent her to the local beauty school. Ok, I'm cheap
Well, after all that, she seems to be happier with herself and her self esteem has improved.
I don't see much difference really, but love is blind they say
I haven't had much luck with OCW. Especially OCW at 100 yards. Last time I tried it with the Dasher blow out gun there only was about .035 difference in the height of the groups....ie across 6 different groups. I just could not see where it would do me much good. I did take the best one of the 6 and tried it at 500 and it printed a nice 1.75 for five.Have no idea if its a "good" load or not.But it showed promise.
Rick, suprised your not toying with the 6.5 saum, sure seems to be right up your alley!
When you have a .264 Winchester or a Creedmoor, you have your bases covered!
Funny you should say that though. The day we were out shooting ELR and I posted the 1571 yard rock shooting video, one of my friends had just chambered a rifle for the 6.5 SAUM and brought it. It really shot well at 100 with a couple of 3 shot groups in the .2's and .3's. We had a chrono set up. He was loading H-1000 as well in the 61.5 grain range. Velocity was just over 3040 fps with the 140
I get 2925 in the Creedmoor with 43.5 grains and 3250 with the .264 and 77 grains
There are SO many different cartridges. They all do basically the same thing. They are more alike than different as we've seen said many times.
For a hunting round I'm sure it's great, but there are quite a few pain in the ass things to do to get the brass prepped. Neck up or down the SAUM brass depending on what you can find, neck turning, etc.
The reason to have a hopped-up 6.5mm is to shoot high BC bullets reeeel fast like. The .264 Win does that better than the SAUM
With the velocities the Creedmoor is capable of and the fantastic factory hunting/match ammo produced, it's tough to beat for a match rifle, hunting rifle, and just an all-around fun-shooting rifle. Barrel life is great too.
Just depends on your wants and needs. If I felt a need, I'd build one but, like I said, it's tough to improve upon what I already have. You can only shoot one at a time. The guy who brought it out that day was kind of disappointed in it. He actually built it. He's killed two animals at really long range. 1175 and 1070. Both with the 7mm SAUM and the 168 Berger VLD and sees no advantage with this 6.5 version.
Rick according to Pat and George factory brass is on its way.
I was going to building a 6.5 Creedmoor, then changed my mine to go 6.5 SAUM. However I already bought the action and didn't get a Mag bolt so decided to stick with the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I believe the 6.5 SAUM is going to be around. But I do agree the 6.5mm is a crowded playing field with plenty of good choices.
I've been thinking about building something in 6.5 for a while just not sure which direction I want to go, have been reading all about the saum and the hype that surrounds it, and it seems to have good accuracy and barrel life considering all things,I'm not a big fan of neck turning, but maybe the new brass will not need it, just have to wait and see, the Creedmoor sounds good, but I'm looking more at a hunting round...not that the Creedmoor isn't up to the task!
I'm getting 2950 and no pressure signs with my 23" barreled 260, 123 Scenars, and both H4350 and H4831sc. Best accuracy for me has been with the 4831 but the 4350 is pretty good too. Fed 210s.
6.5 Creedmoor, H-4350, 139 Scenar seated .015" off the lands.
Shot at 600 yards...
Loads 41.9, 42.2, 42.5, 42.8 and even 43.1 formed a huge node. Ejector mark at 43.1
Load 42.2 and 42.5 went into the same hole before the wind stopped. I went with 42.5 as the middle of the accuracy node and shot a 4 shot group at 600...
Pretty obvious that this was the load. Decided to shoot the last 5 I had charged at 100 to see how it shot...
No seating depth adjustments needed
To summarize:
7 shots to find the node and choose the load. 4 shots at 600 to confirm 5 shots at 100 to confirm depth.
16 shots to a Bad Ass Long Range load to be completely confident in.
Yep. I talked to him after I read the magazine. Unreal payout! I still remember the time he drove to Albuquerque at 16 years of age with 2 traps in the back of the truck to practice with me. Unbelievable talent.
Here's one without a node fired from my 6.5SLR. The case duplicates the .264 Win Mag. The loads consist of Nosler ABLR 142, RL33 sparked by a CCI250 Magnum primer. They went from 65.0 to 69.5 by .5 grain increments. They centered 22" below the circle. Total waste of time except to know I wont try this again.
I also fired five Nosler ABLR 129 using IMR7828 loaded to 68.0 grains. These also used the CCI250 Magnum primer.
The reason I tried the 142 is because I wanted a little heavier bullet. Sometimes good enough is.
Thank you, sir, for the education. I didn't see anything, but it is there now that you pointed it out. It was there all the time. I just didn't see it.
On a ladder test don't worry about horizontal differences. Your looking for the shots with the least vertical and then retesting those. I bet the results might surprise you once you load your retest.
On a ladder test don't worry about horizontal differences. Your looking for the shots with the least vertical and then retesting those. I bet the results might surprise you once you load your retest.
[quote=Ringman]Here's one without a node fired from my 6.5SLR. The case duplicates the .264 Win Mag."
I'm sure you know, but there already is a cartridge that goes by 6.5slr based on a 243 win case that's been around for years. In case you don't want to add confusion to your round.
Usually I shoot my ladders at a minimum of 300 and mostly 500 or further. Reading the wind and getting a constant wind or even consistent direction is tough. Also a ladder test is based off the harmonics of the barrel and finding that sweet spot which is why when you find the shots that have the least vertical then you retest for group size within the given node and fine tune from there. This is just how I start my tests. Others may do it different.
I'm sure you know, but there already is a cartridge that goes by 6.5slr based on a 243 win case that's been around for years. In case you don't want to add confusion to your round.
Never heard of it before the other day when one of our .com friends told me what you are telling me. I have no idea what the slr in 6.5slr stands for. SLR in 6.5SLR stands for Sue Loves Rich and doesn't hassle him about his wildcats. I had a dozen prior to this one and one after this one. The reason for this one is to fit the twenty-six ounce six lug Weatherby Mark V action; which was made around the .30-06. The bolt and rails were opened up to fit the .030" larger 9.3X64 Brenneke case head.
I realized I didn't give a distance for the 142 grainer ladder test and group. The ladder test was 400 yards. The wind came up and knocked the stand over so I leaned it against a tree at 410 yards for the 129 grainers.
Usually I shoot my ladders at a minimum of 300 and mostly 500 or further. Reading the wind and getting a constant wind or even consistent direction is tough. Also a ladder test is based off the harmonics of the barrel and finding that sweet spot which is why when you find the shots that have the least vertical then you retest for group size within the given node and fine tune from there. This is just how I start my tests. Others may do it different.
Ya gotta run the ladder all the way until you hit pressure!
Tell me how and where I should see pressure.
Depends on chambering, bullet, powder, throat configuration, nominal bore diameter..... And more. How the he ll should I know what you're shooting!?!?!
When running a ladder, you have to do a little research on load data. If there is none available with the components you are using, you have just become your own ballistician. Start low and work up to pressure!
Traditional signs include sticky bolt lift, ejector marks on the case head, etc...
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, maybe 200 yards if I'm feeling daring that day. Not so much a ladder but I load one, maybe a few at the start charge and make sure I'm on paper. Record velocity. I may have some loads pre-rolled, or I make them all at the range clubhouse (my GMC in the forest). Work up to find velocity/pressure. If some loads cluster, great. If not, I'm still loading 3-5 at my chosen velocity. Rounds are loaded as long as the mag will allow (have only shot SAAMI chambers and have not hit lands with anything). Only way I can go is to seat deeper.
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and spin drift. Direction of spin has an affect (changing vertical up or down), and the crosswind can destabilize the bullet which affect vertical due to lower aerodynamics.![[Linked Image]](http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/547/y7qg.jpg)
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