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OP
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I knew it,,,, My brother.
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Campfire Oracle
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All I ever shot was a spike.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Why's it all twisty like that?
Seems unnatural,
Greater New Mexico Blacktail?
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Protein deficiency causes the twists like that in Rocky Mountain elk.
It can also cause left-handedness.
Tanner
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Campfire Oracle
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The 4 stripes on the side means that it is/was a Democrat,so I culled it from the herd.
Last edited by elkhunternm; 03/08/14.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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OP
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It can also cause left-handedness.
Tanner
Was that a shot?
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Protein deficiency causes the twists like that in Rocky Mountain elk.
It can also cause left-handedness.
Tanner You dumdass, it just dawned on me, that's no Elk... Is it?
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The 4 stripes on the side means that it is/was a Democrat,so I culled it from the herd. Liar, Democrats tend not to "run in herds" Gotcha!
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Campfire Oracle
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Only a Democrat would know that!
GOTCHA!!
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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R, I got distracted by my Chese-schutz Repeater the other day. Back to ladder shopping My thought on the 600y Audette for the 300 Win was the fact that the final load (76.5gr) didn't shoot as well as the ladder test with 1.5gr spread (76-77.5gr). How could 3-rounds with a 1.5gr spread shoot better than 3-rounds with the same charge? Variation in wind? Doesn't the pressure and velocity increase with an extra 1.5gr of powder? Vibration and harmonics can't be the same. Add the fact that 77gr is above the other three-shots. I can't criticize this one too much because the load, rifle, shooter, etc. all came together for 0.5 MOA so its tough to argue with the final results. But, it seems that there are variables that aren't quite controlled. A larger sample size with each charge weight would give better data. But this means more shooting. And we haven't discussed the Ring of Pressure yet Jason I also guess I have to point out that I knew where the load was gonna be in the above ladder in only 10 shots down the bore of a brand new rifle These 3 shots confirmed it pretty much and ran the grand total of shots fired to 13
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R, I think the ladder below explains my thoughts a little better. The 7-shot group from the Final load isn't much better than the Ladder test with loads #2-7 (45.6 - 47.1gr...assuming 0.3gr steps in the ladder?). If my guess is correct, this is another 1.5gr span... with the pressure/vibration/harmonic differences that go with it. And its not just windage, as ladder users ignore it (but wind can affect vertical!). There is considerable elevation with the 7-shot Final load. Based on the data, I can't tell if the POI differences in the ladder are due to charge weight or shooter/rifle/environmental variables since the final load with a single charge weight looks very similar. The rifle, for example, could have mechanical issues which are causing the change in POI, along with charge weight steps. My argument has been that we need normally distributed data, and that requires more shooting so we analyze mean data, not single samples for each charge. Then we can see if the Ladder method is repeatable by finding the same Final load by comparing several Ladder tests against each other. And we ensure that the other variables are in check. Jason Ladder... Group with the load in the "node" at 330 yards. LOL
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The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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I will post this again http://www.varmintal.com/aeste.htmRead the page. Pay particular attention to this: When a load is in tune, the muzzle is on the upward swing. All bullets will exit the bore before it reaches the peak or at the peak. Stay with me All ammo will have velocity variations no matter how carefully you load it. The higher velocity shots exit earlier in time while the barrel is on the upward swing but it pointing lower at the target. These higher velocity shots drop less. The lower velocity shots take fractions of milliseconds more to leave the muzzle. The barrel has swung more upwardly toward the peak of its path and is therefore pointing higher on the target. These shots have lower velocity and therefore drop more impacting lower. The combo is a good additive combo where the muzzle movement counteracts changes in velocity from shot to shot The Audette finds the best velocity and harmonic node
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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R,
I will read the info in more detail later. For now, I will say that your info from Al is in regards to barrel time. I don't dispute it. Its physics.
What is missing is whole body motion of the rifle under recoil. You can have a faster load with a higher POI due to the greater recoil (mo' motions of rifle), barrel time or not. Very common with handguns where heavy bullets hit at the same point as lighter bullets. Longer barrel time with the 300gr vs. 240gr. but the overall recoil of the firearm points the barrel higher on the heavies. Have seen this with rifles too.
And barrel harmonics happen mucho fast. It rings like a bell once the primer goes off. In other words, before the bullet even gets anywhere near the muzzle.
Al is a varminter, and his findings *might* be geared towards light recoil, low weight bullets. I'd be happy to discuss in more detail, but give me a chance to review.
Jason
Last edited by 4th_point; 03/08/14.
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R, Back to my question on the "vertical" of your 7-shot group of your Final load looking similar to your ladder with 1.5gr spread (45.6 - 47.1gr). I'd expect this Final load to be tighter, especially at 330 yards. But, its got similar vertical to your ladder with loads that span 1.5gr? This don't make sense or sell the ladder very well. You impressed with the 600 yard shooting. What happened at 330 yards? And I'm ignoring horizontal because Ladder-ers ignore it, even though it affects vertical. I know you were being generous with the hypotenuse, but vertical is better for this discussion. It'll be less. Now, if you are generous enough to give me the Ladder loads #2,#3,#4,#5 against your 7-shot Final load, it looks like the Ladder shot better (vertical), no? How can the Chosen One shoot less good than the Ladder with gross charge weight variations (0.3gr is 'mo worse than measurement error in your scale/thrower)? We can go round and round, but Extra-Ordinary Claims require Extra-Ordinary Proof. Sell me a ladder! Jason imag
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Varmint Al is an engineer who loves to shoot rifles. He also love to run very complex tests and experiments with rifles, and accurately measure the findings with computer programs most have no access to. He uses FEA analysis He didn't invent the Audette and his name has nothing to do with his former occupation. Read more, assume less. What happens to the stress wave in a real rifle barrel? Just like in the TV tower guy wire, if a stress wave reaches a mechanical discontinuity in the object it is traveling in, such as the muzzle end of the barrel, or the solidly bedded receiver end of the barrel, it will reflect back in the opposite direction. In steel, the speed of sound is very close to 0.227 inches per microsecond, or about 18916 FPS. A wave will travel from the receiver to the muzzle in the barrel in about 0.12 mS. It can make around 4 or 5 round trips before the bullet leaves. Note that it does not matter how heavy the barrel is, or the profile, as the wave travels at almost exactly the same speed in all cases. If we assume an 0.85 ms barrel time - in the first metal the sound wave would travel up and down the barrel 8.42 times before the bullet leaves the barrel. In the second barrel material it would do 8.20 trips. The great thing about the Audette Ladder is that you don't have to think about all of this crap. You just shoot one, look at the target and it tells you what you really need to know.
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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R, Back to my question on the "vertical" of your 7-shot group of your Final load looking similar to your ladder with 1.5gr spread (45.6 - 47.1gr). I'd expect this Final load to be tighter, especially at 330 yards. But, its got similar vertical to your ladder with loads that span 1.5gr? This don't make sense or sell the ladder very well. You impressed with the 600 yard shooting. What happened at 330 yards? And I'm ignoring horizontal because Ladder-ers ignore it, even though it affects vertical. I know you were being generous with the hypotenuse, but vertical is better for this discussion. It'll be less. Now, if you are generous enough to give me the Ladder loads #2,#3,#4,#5 against your 7-shot Final load, it looks like the Ladder shot better (vertical), no? How can the Chosen One shoot less good than the Ladder with gross charge weight variations (0.3gr is 'mo worse than measurement error in your scale/thrower)? We can go round and round, but Extra-Ordinary Claims require Extra-Ordinary Proof. Sell me a ladder! Jason imag Worse than the Ladder? I don't see where you can possible think this. The entire group with the load chosen is right at 1/2 MOA, the ladder impacts comprise closer to 2 MOA 6 of the 7 shots with the load chosen have less than 1/3 MOA of vertical.
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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You may find THIS helpful Trying different loads with heavy bullets in a short barreled Revolver such as a Smith and Wesson Chief or a Colts Detective Special at short distances, lower speed bullets may sometimes hit the target higher. This effect is real. At close ranges slower bullets will hit higher on target than a faster same mass bullet. This happens, because the slower bullet spends more time in the barrel, while the gun rotates about its mass center, thus leaving the muzzle at a higher departure angle. However, since, for rifles the bore line change is usually small and faster, bullets fly in flatter trajectory, there will be a point at that bullet trajectories will cross, thus giving the same impact point on a target. If the target was closer to the muzzle than that o tfhe trajectory cross, the slower bullet would impact higher than the faster bullet. At all distances beyond that cross, faster bullet would be higher than slower ones. In short, if we shoot at a far enough target, the two effects: recoil induced barrel up rotation + flight time to the target, combine such, if the rifle barrel was infinitely stiff, not to bend or vibrate, for bullets fired at the same aim point, the target impact elevation points would increasingly depend only on muzzle velocity. Higher velocity bullets would strike the target higher than lower velocity bullets. If the powder charge weights are in the normal range for that cartridge and bullet mass, then the muzzle velocity will also increase with powder mass.
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Please send 14.95$ plus 10.00$ shipping and handling to:
You Bought a Ladder 1/2 MOA Ave. Creighton, USA
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Now you talking my language R'! I try to avoid qualifications and occupations in the discussions relating to my hobbies, but I test schit for a living as an engineer. If I [bleep]-up it costs my company big bucks. And my boss is on my ass, along with the VP and Pres. Yesterday I was asked to be an ISO auditor for my company. More of a pain in the ass than anything (my time traveling to our sites around the globe) but I don't [bleep] around when it comes to testing and data. That might be why I was asked to be an auditor? In another life I published peer reviewed papers on testing but that ain't nothing. We need to get Al involved because Virtual Test ain't always the same as real-life. Would love to say all FEA is done right but that ain't the case. And Virtual Test requires assumptions. You have certain conditions that are unknown, so you "assume". Have run FEA tests my-own-self and know the limitations. The ball busting that goes between Virtual and Test (real physical testing) is epic. Sometimes the data jive, other times not so much. Just because FEA is run don't mean much. But I will "assume" Al knows his stuff. But you know what? I ain't above anyone. I've dug holes for a living, drove truck, worked a dock in AK, and dorked with construction. My experience and jargon ain't needed to ask for more "proof". I know there is always a better mouse-trap, and I'm willing to buy a Ladder, but I want data and scientific testing to prove it as I have a low tolerance for myth and superstition without any data to back it up . I tried contacting Loubser for a "real" test of the ladder method, but apparently he has moved on. Might try Litz to see if any real validation has been done. And Rick, I ain't trying to pick on you, seriously. But if we continue down this path you're gonna need to start providing some scientific proof of the method. I've done my stint as a researcher/engineer and have done my due-diligence. There ain't ANY truly scientific study done on laddering. I'm willing to eat my words here publicly so I hope you to prove me wrong. But NOT with anecdotal stories, or theory. I want real proof. Jason Varmint Al is an engineer who loves to shoot rifles. He also love to run very complex tests and experiments with rifles, and accurately measure the findings with computer programs most have no access to. He uses FEA analysis He didn't invent the Audette and his name has nothing to do with his former occupation. Read more, assume less. What happens to the stress wave in a real rifle barrel? Just like in the TV tower guy wire, if a stress wave reaches a mechanical discontinuity in the object it is traveling in, such as the muzzle end of the barrel, or the solidly bedded receiver end of the barrel, it will reflect back in the opposite direction. In steel, the speed of sound is very close to 0.227 inches per microsecond, or about 18916 FPS. A wave will travel from the receiver to the muzzle in the barrel in about 0.12 mS. It can make around 4 or 5 round trips before the bullet leaves. Note that it does not matter how heavy the barrel is, or the profile, as the wave travels at almost exactly the same speed in all cases. If we assume an 0.85 ms barrel time - in the first metal the sound wave would travel up and down the barrel 8.42 times before the bullet leaves the barrel. In the second barrel material it would do 8.20 trips. The great thing about the Audette Ladder is that you don't have to think about all of this crap. You just shoot one, look at the target and it tells you what you really need to know.
Last edited by 4th_point; 03/08/14.
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