Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Ladder test, How, why?

You really need to go to a range with someone with long range experience and their equipment.

I routinely have folks who've never shot long range or even shot at all hitting 700 yard plus MOA targets with the first trigger squeeze. Some are even young women



JohnBurns does too...

I should said "if others' not "you" makes it sound it was directed towards you.

10/4

Best,

GWB

Nah but thanks for the tip. I have no idea who john burns is either.
On a side note I do have a friend who was an instructor at Ft Benning. I was on the phone with him asking about this ladder group and how the Army comes to the conclusion what bullet and powder combo to use in the 7.62 m24 platform. He said all the ammo comes from lake city 172gr match. Everything is done in MOA. Their is no ladder loads going to find the perfect load for that individual rifle all shooters are expected to shoot MOA.

STEADFAST AND LOYAL

No offense, that seems like target shooting, not hunting.

I don't think anyone takes offense. Everyone's milage varies

These discussions happen all the time around here.

So at what distance is it hunting and not target shooting?

That is quite humorous.

It's tough to shoot MOA with a 2 MOA load.

More fun trying to move in on 'em. My personal choice no doubt. As to your range question, *shrugs*. Not so much range but the situation for me.





You are saying it basically requires little skill, just good equipment. That, IMO gives you long range boys no credit.

Word on the street is that John Burns fellow is a Jerry Seinfeld look alike with a bad spray tan, not to mention the 24hr Campfires biggest douche. Count yourself lucky.

On your side note if your buddy thinks the US Army is still shooting 172gr Ball Special Match he might be just a touch out of touch.

Side note #2 is that MOA went the way of the Doodo bird unless you live in Wisconsin or are an uncommonly accomplished LR killer of big game.

So if your way works for you, get after it!

Some of us are a bit pickier, might be top level national competitive shooters, need more accuracy, shoot a actual long distances etc.

Carry on. FWIW I have shot our small deer at almost 400 with a muzzle loader......

YOu can do that with factory ammo, factory rifle, non bedded etc... as I noted I"ve taken stuff with my MZ to almost 400... I"ve taken game beyond 500 with iron sights....and don't need to discuss it on the long range forum?

If you read the original post, its how and why run a ladder.

Some folks don't need to use em, some have other ways. Some ways can be more work, some less. Some pay off some don't.

Now that we don't have to sort through ebonics it might make more sense.

Do you know something that I don't?

GWB

On second thought, that was a stupid question on my part. I'm sure there are all kinds of things and esoterica that others may know that I don't, but perhaps you catch my drift.

GWB

Maybe the toilet did get flushed.

Well he left the school house back in 2011 so he probably is. Thanks jerry Seinfeld look alike with bad spray tan. And it was me saying 172 not him.

STEADFAST AND LOYAL

Now lets get into an actual discussion, now that ebonics has flown the coop for a while...

I see all this, kiss, find pressure, rock on.

And as noted, if you are looking for pressure you do that a bit at a time. Certainly not load the max load and shoot a 10 round group blowing primers out of heavy brass or tight bores to decide you need to back down another grain or two....

How does a ladder work?

We've discussed that we are looking for minimal group seperation with the widest variation of powder charges. In non ebonics, the sweet spot.

So what do I find?

I run mine over a chrono. As one knows reload data can be off quite a bit due to many variables in the gun and reloading stuff. Bare or coated? odd or even grooves? Tightness of the bore and how the throat is set up.

So I go to either a bullet that is engaged a minimum of .010 or off the rifling that minimum of .010. Going with what I've learned whether to engage or not. Different bullets like different methods at times.

Engaged is not the smartest with hunting ammo, but you can generally get away with it.

The word kissing is always used in ebonics. I'll tell you why I don't care for the word or what it means to me. Bullet ogives can vary, and I don't mean by design. Just as the meplat can vary. Not much, but enough. And depending on the quality of the projectile, some vary more than others and more often.

One of the things that I"m typically after is that same pressure produces same velocity. To an extent.

The simple answer for me, is what do you think would happen to pressure if you shoot one bullet just touching or kissing, the next engaged .010 and the next freebored or jumping .010? The pressure and hence the MV will likely vary MORE than if all three were any of the above.. IE all engaged .010. To simply barely kiss, and even if your seater is perfect, you can still have variances of engaged or not.
There is a reason that target shooters sometimes use soft seating... so that the engagement is the same each shot regardless to seating depth and or throat erosion. Let the chamber seat the bullet.

So I am either off or engaged.

Then I run the audette on a GOOD day, not just any day, but one I can see well enough with my spotting scopes, and where the wind and mirage are not bad. Yes you might have to search for that day.

I run it over a chrono.

What I find with both, is not only where harmoics are friendly, but where I"m getting to pressure at. The chrono will show increases of pressure that are linear as you go up in charge weights until you get to high pressure, where an addition of powder will not increase the MV the same as previous ones, and sometimes not at all.

So with the audette, i've located 2 things that are important in my books to get to where I want.

With targets, I'm trying for the least wind drift. And IMHO thats what you are after in hunting. Its the most variable thing out there that you cannot easily quantify with something like a rangefinder. ITs still always somewhat of a SWAG to get the wind right. So I don't want a slow round. But I know that with some combos I wont' be at acceptable accuracy with the fastest round either. And I may be out of an accuracy node on top of it.

Now I"m still not sure I get all the ebonic "hints" about kiss, find pressure and rock on.

But to have no clue where your bullet is in relationship to the lands, when testing ammo is like the blind leading the blind.

So we've already ruled out that "kiss" means anything abnormal, other than your version of how engaged you want to be.

Now we find both accuracy and velocity and hence signs of pressure just a bit at a time, going up in charge weight.

And regardless to 79S post, and I"m not saying he didn't see what he did because anything can happen, I've yet to analyze and pick middle of the cluster not give me good accuracy from the get go.

Thats the same as shooting ten 5 shot groups or 50 shots, having shot only 10 shots basically. ANd having the same data, an all on one sheet without having to overlay 10 seperate groups to find out whats what.

I"ve been down the road of taking the best 5 shot gropu, but wondering why over time, that my ammo isn't the best. To later find that I was likely on teh edge of a node and temps warmed up, throat wore etc... and changed and tossed me out of the node.

Makes way more sense to be able to have that luxury as to being off a few tenths of a grain of powder charge wise, or a bit warmer, or cooler or humid or not..... and still have the faith that the bullet will hit where you point it. In the group.

Kiss find pressure and rock is the same as Audette.

So I offer this as an aside. Ebonics Dictionary.

What is kiss,find pressure and rock on? That definition is run an increasing test, that was though of many years ago and often at that time called Audette, for Creighton Audette who decided it could work out loads with less work. One of the leading shooters of the day.
These days its been adapted a few times, folks using ladders don't even know the name Audette often. And thats not a big issue. But they are doing the same in varying ways.

And even when you are done wiht the first test, you go back and tweek some more as needed.

FWIW and in answer to 79S, how could you walk miles shooting a ladder and have a load that didnt' shoot at 100 yards?

Fairly easily actually. Not all bullets are stable and asleep until they pass a certain distance. Which means you could have a long and short range load. Its not for everyone, and I'd think not that common to hunting at all, unless its different bullets for different impact velocities.
But I do have a 90 grain load in 223 that kicks tail and takes name. Works really good at the 600 yard line. I started my Audette at 300 with it. And worked on it from there, finalizing it with various tweeks and 12 shot groups at 600 yards from the sling.

I've used it at 500 even winning many matches. And turning in some range records, beating national champions etc...not that I or anyone cares and I dont' have pictures to post...

BUT one day, on a match at 300 yards, where we were supposed to have shot a 1000 yard match, I took my 90s and a few backup 75 amax.... The wind was bad enough to break off target frames on the 1000 yard pits line. So they made it into a prone only short range match at 300. I was thinking... 300 is so easy with iron sights but i"m handicapped running post sights vs apertures the bolt gun guys were running... this match will probably be won by 1 point, IE someone will catch a 10 on a change where the others catch a 9... so let me shoot my 1000 yard ammo. I lost. The 90s shot ok, but probably not any better than just over MOA at 300. They were not totally asleep or stable. Went back to my 75 amax on the next 2 matches and won those. But lost the match due to over thinking....

I went back, and did a LOT of testing off my benches at home that go out to 600 yards, scoped and often after dark so mirage and wind were not factors... and found that my 90s were going to sleep between 400 and 500 yards.... I'd have never thought that possible.

But then do some research and some shooting and you learn.

Thats why I often only believe paper. And its why I don't get horny seeing super low ES and SD on the chrono either... that has rarely been my best groups at longer ranges. But it takes GOOD ES and SD to have good groups.

FWIW most any factory gun and ammo, with a bit of shooting is good for 300 to 500 yards. With a bit of shooting you learn what its capable of and most big game vitals are considerably larger than MOA to start with.
Most target shooters demand better than MOA.

Now I"m aware that all kinds of nasty words will fly in 2 weeks or so... and I"ll probably be silent as I don't play those games much anymore. Its not worth it. Especially dealing with folks that think their way is the only way. And yours is stupid.

This method has worked for years. And has worked very good. And its an option, no one is telling you, you have to do it this way or even that, folks are relaying how it works and what they do and why.

If kiss, find pressure and rock on works for you, thats good too.

I just wanna know what type of strain gauge you are using to find that pressure so you can rock on? Oehler or other?

FWIW 172 hasn't been standard for years. It wasn't even the standard in the late 80s when I started shooting. The best you can do with 172 special ball is pull the bullets and seat 168s on top or pull some powder and seat 175s.

The army has a TOTALLY different goal in mind..... its applicable but not in a hunting situation.

But it is very close to 25 varget/BR4 and 69 smk and keep going. But can almost guarantee that while the above load is a keeper in almost any AR15/M16, I can also say that it very much so may not be teh BEST load in any INDIVIDUAL rifle.

Jeff,

Good post!

Jeff.

What chrono do you use?
Have you found that a low SD load does not shoot/group well?

Thanks.

R.

Yes I'm tracking now on 118 ammo I read that bullets ranged from 172-175, due to worn machinery at the lake city plant. Again my buddy refered to it as m118LR I just assumed it was 172.