Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Ladder test, How, why?

Dave,

Yeah, but I'm not claiming to have the Holy Grail of load development. Just shoot to find velocity (pseudo ladder), load to check accuracy, then test at 500y. This and some other methods seem to get to the same place with a lot less rounds fired. Really simple methods.

Laddering uses long distances to tease-out the loads. Longer distances should show levels of accuracy better. But you also add variables due to wind. Add the fact that horizontal winds affects vertical and how do you know if the 0.1gr difference is due to charge or wind? All testing is done 400-600y. If someone wants to confirm at 100-200 yards, now they shoot even more rounds?

And I'm not saying that everyone isn't getting to the same spot. Some direct, some the scenic route, and maybe some the long way 'round. The thread is about ladders. The method has been questioned so how about some science to back up this approach?

In the end, it don't matter what method is used as long as the shooter gets the accuracy they want. But ladders are like a Holy Grail. The Grail comes up in other aspects of life, investing for example. Just because it works once, twice, or 50 times doesn't mean its the only way, the best way, or even a great way (hidden in a bunch of fluff).

I said I'd buy some ladders and ditch my simplistic method, but the validity of laddering needs to be proven with repeatability and normally distributed data. If its such a great method, you'd think this would have already been done. Maybe it has, that's why I keep asking

Jason

Here's 3 @ the 3 from yesterday afternoon.





'Flave Precision simply kicks all sorts of ass.



Travis

B,



Bwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!


I take notes all the time......

















In fact, most every shot is chron'd and noted, and records kept.


Best,

GWB

Jason

The fact that the Audette showed two nodes and each one produced an accurate load proves its repeatability. At the time I shot the Audette, I didn't even try the upper velocity node. I loaded the lower node and was happy with its velocity, accuracy and distinct lack of vertical at long range.

I wore the barrel out.

Two things are commonly done when accuracy fades with barrel wear; increase COAL and/or increase charge. Both are an attempt to increase pressure to match the original, accurate load had that throat wear negated.

The upper velocity node was there when the barrel was new and for a while when it was much older and worn. Repeatability.



Try this and I have when I first started shooting Audettes.

Take a rifle that you already have an accurate load derived from another method. Shoot an Audette from below the load in charge to above where you already know pressure is. See if your load is in the Audette's accuracy node. It will be.


This is what the case was with my 243 WSSM and the 70 gr BT

Since then, I go the direct route with the Audette. It does everything in one test all at once. Finds accuracy with lack of vertical for a long range load and top end pressure for your rifle/component choice

That's a REALLY good post BH!

4th,

That was close...I [bleep] near bought a ladder.

Laffin'!










'flave,

I was hotter than [bleep],all day yesterday...with a half dozen or so rifles that I tossed in the crummy.

Was flogging on a Rock barreled 223AI purty hard,post bolt bushing and love the rifle more than ever.

She was a sloppy bitch,in issued guise.(grin)



Mo' bettah.






Same lot of formed 50's...post bushing.



Will poke another in the Mail.(grin)










G,

Sweetheart...there ain't NO [bleep] need,for you to perpetually reiterate your incredibly slowwwwwwwww "learning" abilities.

Bless your heart.

Laffin'!










'lia,

Sounds like you really get after it. Laffin'!

Kiss,find pressure and rock on.



Hint.










'Hunter,

You Whining Clueless Kchunt.

No schit?!? "obnoxcious".

You poor poor stupid [bleep]...I'm crying I'm laughing so hard. Just where do you incredibly stupid [bleep] come from?!?

Just Wow.

Boxer,

Love a bushed bolt on those Remingtons. They really should be SOP for all new builds.

Hate to tell you this, but your bolt handle/shifter fell off at the wrong point. Remington's are supposed to disconnect where the bolt handle contacts the bolt itself.

My 7-08 is wearing a Broughton now. I had no idea something good could from Wisconsin. Learn something new every day.



God bless,
Travis

Great thread!

Ain't that the same metal you stamp your custom actions out of?

What I don't get is this: If a guy has a routine he uses to work up loads, and he's happy with it, WTF should he care what anybody else thinks of it?

Smoke,

I'm not making my own actions. Yet. But when I get my new forge and hammer I'm going to give it a try.

I don't care what anybody else thinks about anything. I just like to argue.



Travis

I also guess I have to point out that I knew where the load was gonna be in the above ladder in only 10 shots down the bore of a brand new rifle






These 3 shots confirmed it pretty much and ran the grand total of shots fired to 13

Yep, use what ya like and if you're entered into any matches that I am too, please use anything other than Creighton's!

'flave,

Big Green's .378's,are sloppy [bleep] as a default. C-Note were prolly my worst.



The cure done 'er proud.




Same lot of ammo,as above.




I've tried for multiple 100,000's of rounds to yerk a Big Green shifter off...but haven't yet. Fixin' to go try just that and knock over a few more ladders,here directly.(grin)

If the 308Win weren't sooooooooo awesome,I'd give a 7-08 a whirl.



Kiss,find pressure and rock on.

As to Cheese Spouts,I mainly only gun Boots,Brux,Krieger and Mike Rock...with a GREAT preference to West Coast tubes,if only because I got 'em all.









Dooshmike,

I'll feign my "surprise" that the only move you can muster,is to set upon your couchbound kchunt and try to run outta skin and shoot for a 90 PSI Epidermis.

Congratulations?!?

Laffin'!









'pole,

You'da been impressed last night,when I flipped my 1-9" Hart 22-250AI upside down an punched the ADL box tab to 6-48,so I could slam a Torx fastener in the bitch.

Gonna be Standard Fare from now on...[bleep] them itty-bitty phony [bleep] fasteners.










'lia,

You are doing "great",with "all" that "experience"...garnered via "all" them rifles.

Laffin'!

I'm [bleep] cryin' I'm laughing so hard.

Just Wow!

My .17 Rem was pretty bad from the factory. Gre-Tan to the rescue!

.308's are gayer than AIDS.

[bleep] Yo Couch!



Travis

Was making coffee and filling thermos bottles,then a pard arrived and declared "Hornet Day"...so he's stuffin' 33's in Virgins. I'm torn on whether to put on a Clinic while fire-forming 32's or go for the jugular with the real schit at 3400fps++.(grin) Might could Pearl Harbor him and go Winny 54 wearing a [bleep] Shilen in "K",as he'd never see THAT coming.

Kiss,find pressure and rock on.



Nary a cloud in the sky,nor a breath of wind,so it's a fair to middlin' LR Fire-Form Day.

Have heard good thangs about the 7-08,but I don't like Wildcats.

Now to help the Texans,I'll mention that the first sign of AIDS will be a pounding sensation in their azzholes...as per a Public Service Announcement I heard on the radio this morning.

Laffin'!

B,

just a hint!

7mm-08's work well



up close


or



out a bit.

Best,

GWB

308's are bad-ass.

Get back on your couch.

R,

Would 77gr be in the node in the ladder?

Also noticed that 76gr, 76.5gr, and 77.5gr shot tighter than the final load of 76.5gr in the second pic? Seems that 76-77.5gr would work? Is it common to find a 1.5gr spread that covers the node?

Thinking out loud here...

Could we say that an upper level charge (your loads seem near the top of published data for a 200gr) is producing good velocity, with good accuracy? What if a guy just ran loads up to find velocity (or pressure)? He's got a window from 76-77.5gr that you've shown to do well.

Seems like a very forgiving rifle, laddering or not!

I might have mentioned it earlier but I'm thinking that the rifles, bullets, powder, and primers are probably better than the shooters. Your rifle in the example seems very load tolerant.

Jason

Yeah, me too. But when I'm not in on the argument, I just like to toss of a "WTF are you guys arguing about" every now and then.

B,

I made it just in time. On the list for the next batch of 1407R (next month or two). D&T two holes in the ring for DIP rail. Mark said the donors are getting scarce so this batch might be it (...get on it Travis, there are some left).

He suggested 22". What did you go with on your rifles?

Feeling like a kid on Christmas...

Jason