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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,562 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,562 Likes: 2 |
Nope, Gimme your condensed version of why I should.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Nope, Gimme your condensed version of why I should. They tell you how fast the bullet is going. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,933
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,933 |
You can run, but you'll just die tired.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,562 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,562 Likes: 2 |
Well, that is condensed....
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,562 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,562 Likes: 2 |
Nope, Gimme your condensed version of why I should. They tell you how fast the bullet is going. Travis The paper tells me where they hit, So many choices.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,148 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,148 Likes: 5 |
Did you wear white on the special day? Really?...anger issues should be taken up elsewhere. I'd like to help you, but you know -- you have to recognize you gave a problem first.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
The paper tells me where they hit, So many choices.
That's no choice at all. You saved $100.00! Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Did you wear white on the special day? Really?...anger issues should be taken up elsewhere. I'd like to help you, but you know -- you have to recognize you gave a problem first. That's why I have him on ignore. He is a cyber-bully. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,562 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11,562 Likes: 2 |
I just don't feel like you're taking this topic very seriously.
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,275 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 11,275 Likes: 2 |
No MILF's on a Friday!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,933
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2005
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I just don't feel like you're taking this topic very seriously. Just this topic? R.
You can run, but you'll just die tired.
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
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Good talk..Now lets get this back on track.. GFY
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,926
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2011
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No MILF's on a Friday!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Done! David
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,933
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2005
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Someone here will still want to use a ladder to test it...
Kiss, Find pressure and Rock On, has this wrapped up.
R.
You can run, but you'll just die tired.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
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Her head is shaped like an hourglass, and she has an outtie.
mathman
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,930 Likes: 71
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,930 Likes: 71 |
Her head is shaped like an hourglass, and she has an outtie.
mathman Plus her handles are bigger than her tits. GFY
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,182 Likes: 24
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,182 Likes: 24 |
Oh, for a minute I thought this was the NBTE GWB
A Kill Artist. When I draw, I draw blood.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
I'll repeat this for BH:
"I really like the idea of ladder tests, but I have two problems with how they are traditionally done:
1) every barrel and load is subject to some random variation in POI. Only firing 1 shot per charge weight does not adequately take into account this variation
2) wind can and does often have a vertical component in anything but perfectly flat terrain. At any distance much beyond about 200 yards this begins to impact POI
These two sources of variation can skew results and prevent them from being repeatable with a given barrel/load combination. If using a method like this, I prefer the OCW method (which I have used successfully, in addition to the traditional ladder method), as it tends to mitigate these sources of error better, but I usually find excellent results simply by kissing, mashing the pedal, and loading straight ammo.
These were all shot using the kiss/mash pedal method...
Jordan, I agree 100% on the wind affecting vertical. Its a known affect in external ballistics but it just gets brushed aside by ladderers. To be fair, I haven't seen Rost comment on how he handles horizontal (wind) in his ladders (ignores it, compensates for it, etc.). It seems like he does his best to shoot in windless conditions. I did see a ladder posted very early in this thread that had considerable horizontal, but the target read "no wind"! Jason Im' lucky, my personal range is about as flat as you can get, surveyed to about 6 feet difference from berm to 600 yards. And I am and protected from our normal summer winds by a thick brush line blocking most of that effect.. I actually don't really worry so much, never minding the other nuts on this thread, but I don't stop after 10 shots generally... I have occasionally... but I often chasing accurate loads shoot 3 shot groups of every one in the node and one out each way to boot. I've read on shooting ladders using 2 or 3 shots each... and its still giving the same result as shooting a bunch of 3 shot groups and overlaying all the targets. But normally it takes a fair amount of shooting to verify where the best center is and if it will continue to perform. BUT it gives me a good odds at where to start. Better than blindly shooting groups. Wind driven vertical will show up if its there. But then in the end, I generally am not using a chrono much at all after the first ladder. Only after I"ve decided by paper results and a few more groups so to speak, will I drag the chrono out to verify a 10 shot group or two, just to see what the ES/SD is. I have often shot after the first ladder, at night, where I have not much at all to deal with. What someone has not mentioned either, how much horizontal effect mirage can have on trying to shoot a group or a ladder. Many think its only wind that affects drift of bullets. But mirage can be a bear too. And it can increase, decrease and totally go away. And come back. Everything you see when it changes means a change to impact. I will NOT correct for wind if I see it in a ladder as I shoot. I'll just deal with what the paper tells me after the fact. Noting that it could affect the impacts. I think thats what can show sometimes that one shot, close to being in the node by powder charge, but is not in the node really, really out, but the next shot is back in.... that one I kind of discount, but will shoot again to verify.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
1 ladder test is sufficient for that particular load? Does anyone repeat to verify?
This is still my biggest Q, I have a very difficult time believing one or even two ladders will provide solid evidence, A node is a 3 or 4 shot group, but really is just one group, My rifles/skills are not equal to most here, but my doubt comes from me trying to duplicate my own "nodes/groups", Some days a particular load is a hammer, other days, the nail. I have rarely ever shot a ladder again. Only if I had no choice and shot the first in crappy conditions and it doesn't show anything I believe to be true. Assuming you have some rounds with increasing charges, grouping together, thats where you start shooting 2-5 shot groups with everything in that node.. and as I've noted I generally shoot one each side to prove that that is the start and end of the node. Heck the one on each side might even group fine, but probably will still be H/V out of the group one way or another as to location vs aiming point. If you have days where a proven load sucks, IMHO thats either you or you not knowing whats going on with conditions. How many factors can affect where the next bullet hits? A LOT. A lot more than most folks think. Its just not wind. Or temps.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
Curiosity killed the Cat, but I'm no Cat fan anyways, So,
Next decent day 'round here, I'll take my pet '06 load, 58 grains of H4350 and 165 g. heat seeker,
Load up said charges with .3 increments and see where the "node" is,
You think that node will be 58 grains? Could be interesting....
All I can do is 300 yards, Seems no one is willing to sell me a 1000' strip of terra firma 4' wide. 1000' is not much further than 300 yards. Really only about 100 feet further... LOL
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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